Conference noted::bicycle

    Running at about 60% 75% effort doing long rides is the best fat
    burning...
    
    Fast twitch muscles will develop through sprint workouts and high
    cadence...
    
    Chip

    it'd burn more fat if your lungs are working hard than if your legs
    are, so if your legs are burning, you're in too high of a gear for
    sure.
    
    ed

Am I better off using heart rate as a gauge (70% or so of max) or by using
cadence?

I believe that if I were to use cadence at the 90 RPM that I've seen various
places, that my heart rate would be closer to 85% of max.

Assuming its heart rate, should I then be trying to keep my heart rate as close
to a constant 70% of max for the entire ride?  What should it be during warm up
and cool down?

Thanks,
-Al

    You really need to use both cadence and heart rate. You should use
    a relatively quick cadence starting out 90-100 in a small gear.
    
    Warm-ups are warm-ups -- fast cadence (comfortable) in a small gear
    for a couple (+) miles. Cool-downs should follow the same rule unless
    you've really hammered and your legs are hashed and your heart rate
    is through the roof.
    
    Remember, the higher you drive toward max the less fat you'll burn
    and go to glycogen, chemicals, and experience lactate build-up which
    will interfere with your muscles efficiency to continue.
    
    Chip

    Well, as Chip pointed out in earlier, if you really want to ride
    to lose weght, you have to do long (2+ hour) rides.  Shorter rides
    don't get to the point where they're burning fat.  I.e. maybe
    your best investment is a watch; then worry about a cadence or
    heart rate monitor late.  Katz 

RE: maybe your best investment is a watch; then worry about a cadence or
    heart rate monitor late.

I got a computer for the bike, which has, of course, a clock, a trip timer,
max speed, speedometer, & odometer.  Unfortunately on a weekday, a one hour ride
is about all I have time for after work.  Because of my schedule and commuting
distance (Merrimack to Littleton) communting to work would be a impossible (IMO).

When I ride tonight I'll keep these things in mind, specifically trying to warm
up and keep my legs going a bit faster.

I've lost about 10 pounds so far, so there is some benefit to the short rides
I've been taking.

-Al

From what I've read in here and experienced, in general, casual
fitness riders ride too easy on the flat and too hard on the
hills.  Riding a bike with good, properly inflated tires at 14 MPH
on the flat isn't that hard.  You have to concentrate a bit to
keep your heart rate up.  Conversely, you come to the hill, 
suddenly you're fighting gravity and you have to concentrate
(and downshift) to keep your heart rate -down-.  It's hard not
to experience the hill as a challenge and up your output 
considerably, but it's really not the way to get an aerobic
workout.

If riding at an even aerobic rate is anything like running, you
should be able to get plenty of good from a one-hour ride, so long
as you don't cheat yourself on the flats.

Andy

RE: <<< Note 2973.6 by GIGI32::LEGERLOTZ "BMC has the inside track on outdoor fun!" >>>

>I've lost about 10 pounds so far, so there is some benefit to the short rides
>I've been taking.

That's great! I agree, there are benefits to short rides. Here's a synopsis of
my experience. I mention it just so that you can compare your experience to
someone else's, not because I recommend you mimic it. 

80% of my rides are 12 miles, to and from work over rolling terrain. I usually
ride at what I consider a medium to a hard pace, depending on mood, goals, etc.
Every now and then I wear a heart rate monitor. For me, my medium-feeling pace
works out to an average pulse of 160-165 BPM, and my hard-feeling pace averages
165-175 with typical peaks of ~180. The highest I've gotten my heart rate on a
ride is about 193. Using these rough numbers, my typical ride is at 80% to 90%
of my max heart rate for 35 to 40 minutes. 

I now weigh about 155 lbs, whereas three or four years ago I was more like 170
lbs. Weight loss hasn't been a goal, it just has happened. I eat a lot of food,
so I must be burning some calories! 
						-- Tom

    Interesting.  If I didn't excercise regularily  I would be a real slob
    by now (comfort eating/drinking being what it is), as it is 7 hours 
    a week excercise just about keeps the weight under control.
    
    (Normally I would want to be doing 4x1 hours + 1x8 hours in a week,
    rather than 3+4 hours)
    
    For serious weight loss (the `week three in the tour' look) I would
    recommend a couple of weeks in the high mountains at alternate 10 hour
    5 hour days.  Make sure that you eat sensibly as well...  I got down to
    my all time low (150lb - against 165 usual) that way.

    I don't know if anyone else experiences this but I thought I would
    mention it.  
    
    I am a runner who tends to gain weight when I put in more time on the 
    bicycle.  The heaviest I ever weighed (145 lbs) was when I gave up running 
    for a summer and went on 1-2 hour weekday/all day Saturday bicycle trips.  
    Perhaps the weight gain is my body's reaction to endurance efforts.  
    
    When I mix running/bicycling at 60%/40% then I seem to get the best of
    both - lungs, legs, heart feel strongest and keep my weight at a 
    comfortable 135 lbs on my 5'8" frame.  Whenever my weight drops below
    this (more running), I lose endurance (confirmed by jumping on the scales 
    whenever I feel low energy-wise).
    
    Over time, I think the body tends to conform to the load placed on it.
    Healthy eating habits assumed.

Oh, I should have mentioned the frequency of my commute rides. It averages
three days (total six rides) a week; every now and then four days; once in a
great while five days (I love that!). My weekly mileage for the past 12 weeks
(when I've been commuting this year) has averaged 78 miles, including one zero
week (sob!) of vacation. 
						-- Tom

I went for a ride last night and kept all of the advice and opinions here in
mind.  I found a pleasant improvement in the quality of my ride from both a
health point of view (more constant heart rate, aerobic, etc...) and I just 
plain enjoyed it more.

I took the first 5 minutes to warm up.  I used only gears 1 to 4 and kept
spinning at high rpm (previously I was out of the garage and right to 18th gear
or so).  After that, I got to my first hill and started riding more normally.

I kept the bike in a gear (sometimes two) below what I had been using previously.
I found that my speed on the flat was at times a mile per hour or two slower
than before, but my speed on the hills was a mile per hour or two faster because
they felt a lot less like hitting a brick wall.

My average speed over 20 miles was about the same, but it felt much better.

-Al

    good, looks like you're on you're way to improvement
    
    but "1st" "4th" "18th" those terms are sooooo, ahhh, tacky.
    Have you heard of gear inches?  I'm sure there's a lecture
    in here on that somewhere.  Learn about that and you'll be a real...
    
    gearhead,
    ed

>>    but "1st" "4th" "18th" those terms are sooooo, ahhh, tacky.
>>    Have you heard of gear inches?  I'm sure there's a lecture
>>    in here on that somewhere.  Learn about that and you'll be a real...

I meant those more as relative to one another rather than 18th gear is a ratio of
nn:mm, but I know what you mean 8^).

-Al

    :-)  yeah, you really want to be able to say, well I shifterd up
    from my 42 inch gear to my 47.4 which wasn't really a 47.4 of course
    because my tire was soft you know i mean it was more like 47.32
    for a better mechanical advantage but because the tire was soft like i
    said before it might as well have been say 60.3 or 60.4.
    
    then you'll really sound like you know what you're talking about and
    everyone will ask you for advice ...
    
    :-)
    
    ed

    Ed's right... another acceptable method of communicating gearing is
    use your chainring/cog combinations like, "yeah, I popped into my
    54x15, jump outa my saddle and just bulldozed that hill!"  :-)
    
    Chip

    gad, I need my stumppuller gears to do buldozing...
    
    :-)
    
    ed

Here is a good explanation of the way the body metabolizes fat for energy.  It
works for me.  I lost over 60# since September:



			BURNING OFF THE FAT

						by Susan J. Meyerott, MS


		What do students ask for the most?
		A weight control class could turn
		into the "fat cat" of your business.

  Every person dissatisfied with body size and shape would love to discover the
magic pill or diet that would burn fat at an accelerated rate.  But no pill or
diet can match the weight control benefits of aerobic exercise.

  Aerobic training transforms a sedentary, fat-conserving body into a fat-
burning body.  But to optimize weight loss, your classes must be structured so
that students train their bodies to burn more fat,  not just more calories.
While all exercise burns calories, not every activity maximizes a person's fat-
burning potential.

  Although "fat burning" seems simple, achieving it requires the interaction of
complicated metabolic processes.  By examining these processes, you will under-
stand why these factors are crucial for weight control, learn how to design a 
class that burns fat, and be well prepared to answer questions about the effect
of exercise on weight loss.

  Three factors affect a person's fat-burning potential during exercise:
intensity, duration and aerobic fitness level.  by utilizing each of these
factors, the class structure will enable students to burn more fat in a single
hour of exercise - as well as over a lifetime.

EXERCISE INTENSITY

Intensity - how "hard" the workout is - affects the exercising muscle's ability
to burn fat.  When intensity is low to moderate, the exercise is more aerobic
and fat is used to provide energy.  Intense exercise, which is more anaerobic,
uses less fat.  This difference is due to the way the working muscles process
energy for movement.

  Metabolism is the process by which the body maintains itself and makes energy
available for exercise and other body functions.  In aerobic metabolism, oxygen
is available to the working muscle for energy production.  In anaerobic metabo-
lism, the working muscle processes energy without oxygen because it is unavail-
able.

  An exercise is aerobic - the oxygen supply to the exercising muscle meets the
oxygen demand - only when it is low to moderate intensity.  During intense ex-
ercise, the oxygen demands of the muscle can't be met and the muscle produces
energy using anaerobic metabolism.

  Low to moderate intensity generally means exercising at about 60 percent of
maximum heart rate, whent he perception of the exercise is somewhat "hard".
This could be ae at 2 or 4 on the revised rating of percieved exertion scale
that ranges from 1 to 10, or mean the ability to talk without labored breathing
using a "talk test".

THE FAT-BURNING/SUGAR-SPARING EFFECT

  Over the course of time, aerobic exercise of low to moderate intensity trains
the body to burn fat instead of sugar.  This sugar-sparing effect (the sugar
is "spared" or saved) results in greater endurance, which in turns allows you to
burn more fat and calories in a single workout.  To better understand this ef-
fect, lets look at the metabolic process.

  Sugar (glucose) and fat (free fatty acids) are the primary fuels used to pro-
duce energy under normal conditions.  Protein is not used except during
starvation.
When sugar and fat are metabolized aerobically, they produce carbon dioxide,
water and energy (adenosine triphosphate or ATP).  During anaerobic metabolism,
sugar is broken down to produce lactic acid and energy (ATP).

  Fat can only be burned during aerobic exercise,  while sugar can be utilized
during both aerobic and anaerobic exercise.  As you burn more fat, less energy
comes from sugar.  Anaerobic workouts burn sugar, not fat.

  Exercise endurance is related to the level of sugar stores in your muscles.
When your muscle sugar (glycogen) stores drop below a minimal level, you 
fatigue.  Two factors will help your muscle sugar stores last longer, improving
endurance and fat-burning potential:
  
  1. producing more energy through aerobic metabolism rather than anaerobic me-
     tabolism

  2. producing more energy from fat rather than sugar

  Durning aerobic metabolism, fat produces more energy than sugar does.  One
unit of fat produces 3.6 times as much energy as one unit of sugar.  Anaerobic
energy production is a very inefficient method that uses up sugar at an accel-
erated rate.  the result: one unit of fat metabolized aerobically produces 50 
times as much energy as one unit of sugar metabolized anaerobically.

  In a nutshell, this means that short, strenuous anaerobic workouts burn sugar,
not fat, and they fatigue you sooner.

EXERCISE DURATION

  The amount of fat you burn during a workout is also influenced by the duration
or length, of the aerobic activity.  While 15 minutes of continuous aerobic ex-
ercise will burn fat, an hour will burn more.  As you exercise longer, the ac-
tivity becomes more aerobic and the fat metabolism is favored over sugar metabo-
lism.  The following chart shows the remendous effect time has on metabolism.

AMOUNT OF ENERGY SUPPLIED BY:

			Anaerobic		Aerobic
			Metabolism		Metabolism

10 seconds		85%			15%

2 minutes		50%			50%

10 minute	     10-15%		     85-90%

60 minutes		2%			98%



WHAT'S AEROBIC?

  Identify which of the  following activites is aerobic:

	5 minutes of running

	30 minutes of dance exercise

	4 minutes of walking

	60 minutes of circuit training

  You're on the right track if you said "yes" to dance exercise and "no" to all
the other activites.  No exercise, not even walking or running, is aerobic if it
is done for only 5 mintes.  While circuit training may help you strengthen your
muscles and improve your cardiovascular system, it won't train your body to burn
more fat.  For the 30 minutes of dance exercise to be aerobic, it must keep the
heart rate elevated from continuous activity using the large muscles of the legs


  As you can see, all exercise uses aerobic and anaerobic matabolism.  However,
as the exercise session lengthens from 2 minutes to one hour, the percentage of
aerobic work moves from only 50 percent to almost 100 percent.

  Here's an example of how time changes metabolism from sugar burning to fat
buring.  (Keep in mind that this is a sample.  Actual calories burned can vary.)

		CALORIES FROM SUGAR OR FAT
		  During 60-Minute Workout

			Minute 10		Minute 60

Sugar			7 calories		1 calorie		
			(87%)			(13%)

Fat			1 calorie		7 calories
			(13%)			(87%)

  You use the same number of calories per minute if you keep your heart rate
constant during a 60-minute workout.  You do not burn calories at a faster rate
the longer you workout.  But, after an hour, fat provides the greatest prcentage
of calories.

  Keep in mind that both fat and sugar can be burned under aerobic conditions.
Just becuase an activity is 85 to 90 percent aerobic after 10 minutes,  it does
not mean that 85 to 90 percent of the calories are coming from fat.  To burn
more fat, you must exercise longer.

  But, if the exercise is long enough, up tp 90 percent of the calories can come
from fat.  Extending the aerobic exercise period to an hour increases the per-
centage of calories coming from fat.  To exercise longer, you must xhoose a pace
that allows the oxygen supply to the muscle to meet the oxygen demand.  That
means low to moderate intensity.

FITNESS LEVEL

  An individual's fitness level is the third factor that determines the energy
source for exercise.  At any level of sub-maximal exercise - aerobic exercise
sessions should always be below the maximum level a person can work - an aero-
bically fit person will burn more fat than an out-of-shape person.

  If you've taught aerobic classes 3 to 4 times a week for 5 years, you're in
good shape.  An easy pace for you is probably a strenuous pace for a new student
Consequently,  unless the new student paces herself, she will rely more on an-
aerobic metabolism, use more sugar than fat, and fatigue sooner.  That's why
you must encourage students to pace themselves so they're working at the appro-
priate intensity.  What the "right" level of intensity is depends on the aerobic 
fitness level of each person.

  Aerobic fitness is defines as the abiltiy to take in, transport and utilize 
oxygen.  To produce energy through aerobic metabolism, the exercising muscle
must be able to take the oxygen from the blood.  Blood may be rich with oxygen,
but that doesn't gaurantee that oxygen can be used by the exercising muscle.

  When you improve your aerobic fitness, your muscles improve their ability to
extract oxygen from the blood and to utilize oxygen to burn fat and sugar.  The
greater the body's ability to consume oxygen, the higher your aerobic fitness
level.

  Aerobic fitness si measured and defined by maximal oxygen uptake (max VO2).
Fit individuals can work out at a higher persentage of their max V02 before
they begin to rely more on anaerobic metabolism to produce energy.  That is,
they have a higher anaerobic threshold.

  Anaerobic threshold is the point at which an exercise becomes so intense that
the oxygen supply is unable to meet the oxygen demand of the muscle.  When you
cross the anaerobic threshold, sugar is metabolized anaerobically and lactic
acid levels increase in the blood.  As a result, breathing is labored and the
exercise is more uncomfortable.

  The out-of-shape new student has a lower anaerobic threshold (perhaps 50
percent of max V02) than the veteran student.  A highly trained person may be
able to work out at levels exceeding 80 percent of max V02 before producing a
significant  increase in lactic acid.

  As lactic acid builds in the blood, less fat is burned.  High levels of lactic
acid prevent the release of fat out of cells.  Since less fat is in the blood, 
less is available to the exercising muscle.

  With aerobic training, the anaerobic threshold is raised, more work can be 
done aerobically, and less lactic acid is produced at each submaximal exercise 
level.  As a result, more fat can be mobilized out of the fat cells and used by
the working muscle.

THE IMPORTANCE OF TRAINING MUSCLE

  How do you increase aerobic fitness?  The effects of exercise are very specif-
ic.  To convert your body into a fat burner, you must train the muscles.  That
is where improvements in aerobic fitness take place.  At first glance, this may
not seem to be the case.  After all, beginners who are gasping for breath dur-
ing the aerobics component of a class breathe regularly and evenly over time as
they become better conditioned.  But, as the definition of aerobic fitness 
states, this is the result of muscles improving their ability to use the oxygen.

  A muscle has 3 different types of muscle fibers:

	slow-oxidative (SO)

	fast-oxidative-glycolytic (FOG)

	fast-gycolytic (FG)

As the names imply, the slow-oxidative and fast-oxidative-gycolytic fibers
(also called slow twitch and fast twitch), are cabable of producing energy when
oxygen is present, whereas the fast-gycolytic fiber (another fast twitch), is
not.

  The intensity of the exercise determines which of the muscle fibers will be
recruited for action.  When the exercise is slow, the nervous system recruits 
the slow-twitch (SO) fiber.  When the exercise gets more intense, the fast-
twitch (FOG and FO) fibers are recruited.  During high intensity exercise, more
FG fibers are recruited and the muscle produces more energy anaerobically.

			MUSCLE FIBER RECRUITMENT

		           Low Intensity

		Breathing:		Easy

		Metabolism:		Aerobic

		Muscle Fiber		Slow oxidative
		Recruited:		(SO fibers)


			   Moderate Intensity

		Breathing:		Can talk

		Metabolism:		Aerobic

		Muscle Fiber		Fast-oxidative-
		Recruited:	 	gycolytic
					(FOG fibers)
 
			   High Intensity

		Breathing:		Labored, 
      					difficulty talking

		Metabolism:		Anaerobic

		Muscle Fiber		Fast-gycolytic
		Recruited:		(FG fibers)


  With long, slow aerobic training, the SO fibers improve their ability to use
fat as an energy source.  During moderately intense aerobic training that is 
still below the anaerobic threshold, the FOG fibers will also improve their a-
bility to utilize fat.  But when the exercise exceeds the anaerobic threshold,
the FG fibers are recruited and the aerobic training effects will not occur.

  Aerobic conditioning of SO and FOG muscle fibers produces bichemical changes
that allow more aerobic metabolism to occur and more fat to be burned.  These
biochemical changes include an increase in the size and number of mitochondria
and an increase in oxidative enzymes.

  it is int he mitochondria that aerobic metabolism takes place.  With more and
larger mitochondria, the muscle fiber is able to use more oxygen to burn fuel.
Oxidative enzymes are substances that speed up the aerobic process.  With more
oxidative enzymes, especially fat-burning enzymes, more fat can be used to pro-
duce energy during submaximal exercise.

  To obtain these biochemical changes, in the muscle fibers, the same muscle
group must be exercised for 15 minutes or longer.  This is why circuit training,
although it keeps the heart rate elevated for 60 minutes, will not train the
body to burn more fat.  Unless the same muscle group is exercised (not a new one
every 5 minutes), the muscle isn't stimulated long enough for the biochemical 
changes to take place.

DESIGN FAT-BURNING WORKOUTS

  Aerobic dance, like any other activity, can be more aerobic or more anaerobic
depending on how its done.  A typical class lasts for an hour, with 15 minutes
of stretching and warming up, 20 minutes of strength work, and 10 minutes of
stretching and cooling down.   That leaves 15 minutes for the aerobic portion
of the class.  There will be no potential for fat burning unless the aerobics
portion of the class uses the large muscles of the legs continually and rhyth-
mically.

  If you are interested in the weight control aspects of exercise, these tips
will help you structure a class so students can increase ther fat-burning poten-
tial.

	* Make the aerobics component of the class 20 minutes to 60 minutes.
	  The longer the better.

	* Work the same muscle groups continuously for 20 minutes or longer, 
	  preferably the large muscles of the legs.

	* Encourage each student to pace herself for a low to moderate intensity,
	  using a target heart rate of about 60 percent of maximum or using the
	  perceived exertion talk test.  Although 60 percent of a person's maxi-
	  mum heart rate is not necessarily related to 60 percent of max VO2, 
	  it's still one of the easiest and best measurements of exercise inten-
	  sity.

	* Use common sense alonhg with intensity guidelines.  If the exercise 
	  pace feels too intense to a person, particularly a beginner, it prob-
	  bably is.  Slow it down.

	* If the aerobics portion of class isn't very olng, encourage students
	  to supplement class time with walking, running, bicycling or swimming
	  3 times per week to develop and maintain their aerobic fitness level.

  The key to converting the body into a fat burner is training the SO and FOG
muscle fibers to utilize more oxygen and fat.  If the major muscles of the legs
are trained with low to moderate aerobic exercise of long duration, the train-
ing effect will occur.  This will not happen overnight.  It takes time to train
the body to burn fat.  But by following these guidelines and encouraging consis-
tent participation, you can help students achieve their weight goals.		

    I enjoyed reading -.1 very much and it solidified my general
    understanding  of this area.  I have two somewhat related questions.
    1)  How does this relate to "bonking"?  i.e. does one use up the fat or
    the sugar reserves that are easily available?
    and 
    2)  How does this relate to feeling like I need a nap sometime in the
    afternoon after a lunch time workout?
    
    Thanks,
    Rick
    

    IMO bonking is when you;ve used up all of the readily available
    glycogen in your bod and haven't yet converted over to using fat
    stores.
    
    the need a nap feeling is because your stomach wants blood flow
    for digestion and thus deprive your muscles of needed flow.  It
    only happens to me if I have something hard to digest for lunch
    usually a roast beef sandwich or hamburger, so I avoid those
    when I'm riding.
    
    ed

    I do moderately intense (70 minute, 20 mile) rides 10 times a week
    and can attest to the benefits of those single-serve half gallon
    Sealtest snacks. ;-)

    while we're getting into a little snacking conversation how about
    listing the favorite "on-bike" eating item.
    
    me, i switched from bananas to figs. imho they are much better than
    the ubiquitous yellow fruit and have copious amounts of sugar and
    carbo's (plus no fat) and really easy to handle...
    
    Chip

    ....and keep you regular as hell.  I guess you older guys need that
    though :-) x many! 
    
    Brian

    why you whipper-snapper, what do you mean? :-)
    
    Chip

    While we're on the subject of bananas, let me vent a pet peeve:
    Why do cyclists/runners leave the banana peel in the road?  Is this
    "a real jock came this way" statement similiar to marking territory,
    like my cat pissing on the neighbor's woodpile?  How hard is it to
    fling it into the woods?  Kratz  

    Plus it looks much more cool to fling it away, like Eros Polli did his
    hat at Carpentras last year...

    I fling 'em into the woods.  'cept once in a while they get away from
    me and go straight down.  :-)
    
    ed

    Oh, and for the earlier question. I eat bananas, never cared much for
    figs.  I also like Exceed bars.  What's that? You can't get them
    anymore?  Lemme tell you about my stash.  :-)
    
    Haven't cared for powerbars since the days I had to knaw 'em
    off my handlebars and spit out the skeeters that got stuck to 'em.
    
    Did I ever tell you about the ride where I had:
    3 pancakes approximate 6", bisquick complete, before the ride.
    12 to 14 peanut butter and Jelly sandwiches.
    3 or 4 turkey sandwiches
    1 turkey and cheese s/w
    2 large dishes of pasta with tomato sauce
    a bowl of lentil soup
    40 or so granola bars, I think these led to some rough spots in my
    mouth, orange juice yesterday morning burned.
    a dozen or so bananas
    about 6 cups of coffee
    about 6 cans of diet coke
    a dozen or so cookies of various types, once I even ate a few
    cookies just because my computer needed the plastic bag, it was
    raining, then I said the hell with it I can't read the computer at
    night anyway
    two dozen or so nuprin or aspirin for the road rash I got in (2 every 4
    hours, more or less)
    another race the night before this race
    6 french toast with butter and syrup
    7 gallons of water, more or less.
    
    Yeah, I guess I did, back in note 1240.  AS far as I'm concerned, John
    Lee Ellis' Peanut Butter and Pepperoni Sandwiches were the weirdest.
    (note 1020, I think it was.)  WE've talked about food a lot in here. 
    :-)
    
    Oh, that bit about the powerbars?  I was kidding.  it's not possible to
    separate the skeeters from the powerbars.  ya hafta eat them too.
    
    ed

    I gave up totally on the saw dust bars. Too expensive and tough
    to get at. I haven't tried the Goo yet. That stuff is expensive,
    but it might be worth consideration "by event".
    
    Tossing bananas? New stage this year at the TdF? :-)
    
    I know what you mean (bananas). Either that or there are a lot of
    simians with no ecological sense running around. Hey wait a minute.
    those things are biodegradable. Just don't corner on one!
    
    Chip

    i go for M&M's, raisins, fig newton, oreos, bananananas.
    and of course all the free food i can hold at th organized rides.
    
    	ann

    If you have room to store the banana, you have room to stash the peel. 
    Throwing food, apple cores and banana peels etc. in the woods is not
    ecologically sound regardless of the organic nature.  It attracts pests 
    that may not have been there in the first place.  A better place for it
    is your compost pile in the back yard.  As in hiking, pack it in, pack 
    it out.  IMO of course :-). 
    
    Brian 

    Speaking of Goo.... a friend of mine tried some on a ride in
    Leominster.  More convenient than a power bar, better tasting and
    provided a lot of energy for her.  
    
    Brian

    -1 good news... Gamache's is supposed to get some soon. I'm
       gonna try the vanilla stuff...
    
       I like to consider myself gree, but the occasional peel or core
       in the woods isn't a big deal. Wrappings, dead tubes, etc. is a 
       big no-no.
    
       Chip

>       I like to consider myself gree, but the occasional peel or core
>       in the woods isn't a big deal.

it's a tough call.  yes, an occasional peel or core here or there probably
isn't much, but what about when everyone gets that attitude?  i supposed it's
not much of a problem if you're in a remote area, but in a high use area it
can be more significant.  but if i'm in a remote area and find something that
someone has chucked aside, it does tend to bother me a bit.

i generally go with the philosophy that if it wasn't there beforehand, i don't
have any business placing it there (sometimes espoused as "take nothing but
memories, leave nothing but footprints").  however, you could argue that
tossing it in the woods is better than throwing it in the trash, where it's
just going to take up landfill space.  i guess it would be best if i brought
it home and composted it there, but i haven't gotten that sophisticated yet.

- rich

Rob and I normally do 37km @ around 29's round the Cap (not just to ogle 
the topless sunbathers, honest) at lunchtime with an 80m climb at the end.  I 
usually eat home-made muesli and a couple of slices of toast at 7 a.m. and 
then eat a banana before leaving at mid-day.  This seems to work OK, and I 
just eat a sandwich and some more fruit when we get back.

I am a great believer in filling up beforehand (ie: the previous day) and not 
relying on what you can carry during a ride.  We did a 150km brevet last 
Saturday which had about 2000m of deniv. and I just carried 2 bananas, 3 
Crunchy bars and a couple of fruit jelly things - we did stop for the odd 
jambon cru sandwich but that was just to get out of the rain ..

Q: I don't think I eat all that much for the km I do - why can't I lose 
weight??

    Robin,
    
    You don't suppose it's the steak and chips at mid-day which does it?
    
    Although the s&c we had at Val D'Isere was only surpassed by the sausage 
    and chips on the Lauteret, its what I blame for not losing weight last
    year (that and all the cream sauces I was eating as I went through
    Champagne and Lorraine).
    
    /rod

    -1 & -2 Gee, ya think? :-)
    
    Chip

The great thing about the top of L'Izoard was the order of the food -

I think it went as follows:
Coffee, biscuits, beer, sausage & chips, tea, fruit, beer etc etc ....

BTW, the ride went well today, legs fine, eyes tired .... :>)

    re .35 - 
    
    for the syntactically challenged
    
    "Rob and I normally do 37km @ around 29's round the Cap"
    
    ....meaning of "29's" there?
    
    "We did a 150km brevet last Saturday which had about 2000m of deniv."
    
    ...meaning of "brevet"?  of "deniv"?
    
    
    Thanks.

    29's == 29 kph.  Also known to those who have cycled with Robin as
    `to Hemm', as in `we were Hemming around the Cap yesterday when a
    tourist leapt out in front of me'
    
    `Brevet' (fr) (translating losely from my ditionary) `a diploma or suchlike 
    given by the state to allow you to excercise some function'.  Normally
    used to indicate a qualifying round for the Paris-Brest-Paris (there's
    a lot about brevet's in here and PBP in here).
    
    `Deniv'.  Another useful french word, best summed up as the cumulative
    height climbed in a day (as known and quoted by avocet 50 owners). 
    2000m is about 6300 feet, 150km is about 100miles.
    
    2000m/150km is a pretty tough day, any day which averages over 1% of
    climbs over the total distance is pretty tough.
                                                

re -.1

That's "a stupid slant-eyed git let his kid jump out in front of me", if you 
don't mind.....

Brevets are different from sportifs in that it's more a question of taking 
part and completing the course rather than belting like a maniac to get gold, 
silver or bronze in your category.  Brevets can be more sociable affairs with 
organised lunches and stirring speeches from the mayor, plus prizes for 
youngest rider, oldest woman, first person born in Danbury etc etc ...  In 
the Alpes-Maritimes, the local association (UFOLEP - the French just LOVE 
abbreviations) has a Carte Verte which means you do 10 out of their selection 
of permanent brevets over time and get a pot at the local dinner.  My 150km 
was one of these, I am now 60% on the way, unfortunately with the rest being 
the difficult ones.

You will notice I am completely metric, which means I talk about 30's as 
30kph, and 150k as 150 km., but of course the ambition is to get round the 
Cap at over "evens" which as any fool knows means 20 m.p.h ...  My bike is 56 
(cm), and naturally I need a handlebar stem of 4 3/4 (inches) usw (contd p95)

 O, I forgot deniv. - lots of polemique about total up + total down, but I 
use total up only, coming down being a bonus.  Thus Thonon-Nice (750km) was 
advertised as 32km of (vertical) deniv., but it was really only 16km of 
vertical uphill.  Most of my rides in 06 are 1-1,5%, unless I weasle out and 
ride along the Promenade des Anglais with the poseurs who can usually be 
recognised by their tri-bar crouch, their carbon 3-spoke wheels, skinsuits, 
56x12 gearing, and their total inability to climb the railway bridge on the 
Cannes Express Route.

>>of permanent brevets over time and get a pot at the local dinner.  My 150km 
                                           ^^^
    
    Drink (I assume), as used in `lets organise a pot for so and so's
    leaving/marriage/christening/because it's a nice day'
    
    

    .41 re; tri-bar crouch and carbon spked wheels... Hey Robin, no
        need to be insulting! :-)
    
        btw, i'll stick with my crouch and my specialized wheels tyvm!
    
        Chip

>   .41 re; tri-bar crouch and carbon spked wheels... Hey Robin, no
>        need to be insulting! :-)
>    
>        btw, i'll stick with my crouch and my specialized wheels tyvm!
>    
>        Chip

How d'ye feel about moving to the C�te ?? - my insults are much less obtuse 
than that ... and anyway I would expect you to do more than cruise up and 
down the P des A ogling the sunbathers (or would I?).  You know what they say 
"I may be on a diet, but that doesn't stop me looking at the menu.."

As for "pot", no that is "pot" pronounced "po"
what I am expecting is 60's-speak for a trophy, like "gong" is medal.

    I'd love to ride in Europe! All that history, countryside and 
    character... Someday, someday. Well Robin, as far as flying
    past some wimmin sunbathers (topless you say?) I'm afraid we
    don't have that problem over here so I can't say whether I'd
    be hammering by or lose some speed. At least the first few passes.
    
     Chip

Now, would topless sunbathers distract a serious bikie like me ?  I ask you..

On another tack, I have the tickets in my grubby hand for a trip to Littleton 
next week, I just wonder how I'm going to manage to remain incognito and not 
get done over by all the US bikies I have slagged off in the past.  I suppose 
I could leave my CC Antibes hat at home ...

See you all in a week's time -