Conference noted::bicycle

    
    My answer is that you don't because it's dangerous. But rather than
    stir this up again, look at the arguments for and against in note 2618.
    
    Graham.

     <- What Graham said... And I agree!
    
        BTW, who originally stirred that up anyway? :-)

    
    Only 2 stirrers in this conference and it wasn't the Scottish one,
    so...  :*)
    
    Graham.

A quick dir/tit="child" gives:

2618  Outlaw child seats  (boo hiss)
 656 
 522 
 208

I would check other words like 'kid' or 'seat' too, but in fact that was not
at all a quick look because access time to this file is now lousy, even way
outside US working hours. 


Rod

     I know what you mean Graham... I was hoping for some response either
     way. This note is boooooooring lately! 
    
     I guess we couldn't ruffle the "winter fur" with a garden rake!
    
     Chip

    
    See these punters (sorry US. Scottish coloquialism for people) who take
    their sport seriously. Bloomin' ridiculous. Let's see. 4� hours until I
    go home. I'm sure that I can think of something by then....  :*)
    
    Graham.

    re. the base note.
    
    As I said, I was interested in hearing from parents. My guess is that
    Graham isn't a parent yet (correct me if I'm wrong), and although it
    seems likely that Grampa Chip is one, his musings in 2618 & ff don't
    lead me to believe that I'll get any further especially useful 
    contributions from that direction (not that the tirades weren't
    interesting...). I have now read everything in 208.*, 522.*, 656.* and
    2618.*; thanks  for the pointer, Rod. 
    
    It seems odd that nobody mentioned how much more careful, not to
    mention slow, the majority of serious cyclists would be when carrying a
    child with them. No sprints, mad dashes up hills, wheel-sucking,
    whatever. Lots of anticpation and attention to the road. Endless
    thoughts about safety. I would personally be much more worried about a
    12 or 15 year old riding a bike than I ever would be about carrying a
    child with me. I say this having been that 12 and 15 year old cyclist,
    forever being competitive and falling off.
    
    To sum up, I'm not interested in hearing why carrying children with me
    should be outlawed. But I am interested in hearing from anybody
    (especially anyone in Europe) who does carry children with them, and in
    how they do this. I'm particularly keen to hear from anybody who has
    used one of the seats that is mounted on the top tube, inside the
    rider's arms.
    
    Piers

     You're entirely welcome and if you are in the need for a tirade
     please don't hesitate :-)

    
    DEFINATELY not a father. Oh, the thought sends shivers down my spine...
    :*)
    
    Graham.

     The shivers produced by thought are nothing compared to the series
     of life experiences shoved down your throat... :-)

    Ten replies already; I was impressed. But on closer analysis it looks
    more like a hijack than a baby seat...
    
        KIRKTN::GGOODMAN      3-FEB-1994  2721.1  
        KIRKTN::GGOODMAN      4-FEB-1994  2721.3  
        MASALA::GGOODMAN      7-FEB-1994  2721.6  
        MASALA::GGOODMAN     17-FEB-1994  2721.9  
         WMOIS::GIROUARD_C    3-FEB-1994  2721.2  
         WMOIS::GIROUARD_C    7-FEB-1994  2721.5  
         WMOIS::GIROUARD_C   16-FEB-1994  2721.8  
         WMOIS::GIROUARD_C   17-FEB-1994  2721.10  
    
    Piers

    Piers,
    
         A baby seat toward the front of the bike sounds like an
    interesting idea.  I have always examined my bikes after crashes and
    have always seen that the hardest impact points are somewhere near the 
    seat, regardless of my exit ( or lack of ) from the bike, others may have 
    opposing observations.  This is not to say that moving a baby seat to the 
    front of the bike won't change the impact point dynamics, but it would
    give a person a chance to try to protect the child if something goes 
    wrong - also with the new softride systems from the fronts of bikes the
    child probaly would have a more comfortable ride.     
         Please do not take the position that being single disqualifies a
    person from having a useful opinion on bicycle child seats.  I am
    single and childless but I love to cycle and sometimes think about what
    I would do if I had a child who wanted to accompany me on rides.  I
    don't have an answer for such a situation.  The attachment between a
    child and a parent is one based mostly on emotion, not logic.   
         I am generally opposed to baby seats on bikes ( by the way, I have 
    seen parents with kids riding crazily - it scared the wets out of me ).
    But I don't think that lack of proper discretion is something that can 
    be legislated, if that was the case all of us would have done some
    jail time by now.
    
         Abe;
    
    

   See also 2610, Piers.  Capsule summary: bike handling is much
   better with a trailer (as long as its got a ball-and-socket
   hitch) than with a seat rigidly mounted onto your frame.
   
   DougO

Piers,

Maybe I can offer some input but how useful I don't know...

I actually have one of those front mounted child seats.  I think they are a
european design and not at all common here.  But it is very old and my wife
would not let me try it out.  It has no shoulder protection like the most 
basic rear seats have these days.  And only an inadequate seat belt.  But the
concept interests me.  It mounts on the steering tube and suspends the seat
above the top tube in front of the rider but behind the handlebars. It does
not move with the bars and so would add the excess weight in a good place in
my opinion.  My fear is that in a minor fall I would try to protect the child
and would take the fall on my shoulder, and suffer some injury like a
separated shoulder or broken collar bone. 

I actually have two children so have a trailer.  These are not great either.
Some cons - the kids are back there somewhere, you cannot talk to them; the 
trailer is wide and so on a narrow road sticks out a little bit more than I 
do (I put a 6 foot tall flag on that side of it); it makes a bike handle 
funny too, like a rear motorcycle passenger always leaning the wrong way; it 
adds a lot of momentum making braking a tough job and adding many feet to 
your normal stopping distance (which you had better anticipate).  Due to
these factors I gave up towing it with my flimsey road bike and use my
mountain bike.  It handles better and has big brakes. 

I have never used the most common setup - a rear, rack mounted seat.  But 
I've seen fairly novice riders using them in a conservative way.  At those 
speeds and with the shoulder protection, shoulder harness, and helmets, it 
looks to me like the kids would survive a crash or fall with minor injuries.
And I would weigh that risk as acceptable - you can be too careful.

Regards,
Craig

    I'm a father and I coach gymnastics part time so I know a bit about
    safety. I would never use a child seat and probably would only use a
    trailer with my Mt bike. off road or on country roads. 
    
    I think there are plenty of other activities with less risk that people
    can do with their kids. Strapping them into a seat and not really being
    able to communicate with them is not my idea of quality time. I can
    find plenty of time for bike riding with my friends and still spend
    plenty of time with my kids.
    
    Just my .02
    
    Alan

RE: <<< Note 2721.15 by NQOPS::THIBODEAU >>>

>    I can find plenty of time for bike riding with my friends and still spend
>    plenty of time with my kids.

I envy you greatly!
						-- Tom

    I guess you make time, I don't do 1000's of miles on the bike, I'm
    really into many sports so I don't overly do any one. I ride or run
    during my lunch break at work, I also tend to do a 2-3 hour ride or
    some sort of exercise on Saturday or Sunday morning, that leave the 
    afternoon and evening for the family. One thing that also helps is that
    both my kids take gymnastics at the school where I teach so I work with 
    them there also. 
    
    Alan

     I guess I'll disagree with Abe's point about there being a 
     greater safety factor with the front mount - Surprised? :-)
    
     If you hit something you launch. And the direction that you'll
     launch is forward. Guess what's sitting in the way? Yup, baby!
    
     What happen's to baby? Probably gets rippied off the top tube or
     folded in half as you pass over the handlebars... Ouch!

    makes hitting the jewels on the h'bar stem seem kinda minor...
    
    ed

     Hey Ed, I never thought of that. Probably much more comfortable
     than a cup... :-)

    Our family is taking a different approach.  We view cycling, hiking,
    etc as long term investments in health and respect for the environment.
    We are in the process of buying a second tandem.  Our two kids, 3 and 
    almost 5 will be our stokers.  Our older daughter started stoking at
    about 3 3/4 years old.  We really enjoy doing things as a family, not
    just sending them to organized activities for kids...we are looking
    forward to soccer however :-). 
    
    Fortunately we live in the country, and will be riding predominantly 
    quiet but wide roads.  
    
    steve

    To Steve,
    
         Good choice, but obviously the kids must be beyond a certain age.
    You and some other people have pointed out what seems to be key in riding
    with kids.  That is, survey the roads and choose the one with the
    clearest view and lowest auto traffic at key riding times.
                 
         Abe;
     

    I like the idea of the tandem very much. I can't help feeling that my
    seven week old son will be less enthusiastic...
    
    Thanks for the idea; sounds great for later on.
    
    Piers

    When our kids were small, I adapted a trailer to hold an infant car
    seat.  The setup on most trailers do not suit very well for infants.
    Honestly, we did not use the trailers that much.  Our kids are pretty
    active, if we timed a ride during naptime is worked ok, otherwise about
    8 miles would be enough for them.   I have heard of other people doing
    long rides with kids in trailers, they must drug their kids or
    something...
    
    Please note, we are very fortunate in our living location. Trailers
    take up a bit of the road. We ride the trailer on roads like Rt 62
    in Sterling, 5 foot shoulders and not heavily travelled.  I would
    not ride them on a major secondary road.  
    
    Another reason we have made all of this investment in kids riding
    with us is that my wife is an active cyclist.  If this wasn't the case,
    I would probably just be doing my training by myself.   
    
    steve

Are "buggers" the same as "trailers" ?  And have I read the comments
correctly in that the main problems people see with these kid carriers
that are pulled behind a bike is that they are wide, heavy to pull up
a hill, push the bike going down a hill, and make braking more difficult ?

> Are "buggers" the same as "trailers" ?  And have I read the comments
    
    Not in the UK...  :*)
    
    (Note for our US friends. Over here a bugger is what a misbehaving
    child is. As in "Look you little bugger, if you don't stop that, I'm
    going to make you smile on the other side of your face...")
    
    Graham.

To answer the question.....

Yes, a bugger is a trailer.  I have an older cannodale.  The kids face backwards.
I have enjoyed mine for 3 or 4 years now.  The trailer 'sticks out' approximately
3-4 inch on each side considering the width of your handlebars.  My kids are now
7 & 4.5, but are both on the small size for their ages.  I expect to still put 
both of them in the trailer at times this summer.  Although the 7 year old is ready 
to ride on his own.  

When we DO go for our family rides, teh kids sitting backwards chat with mom who
rides in behind.

I have found trailering to be the most comfortable. IMHO.  I had a rear seat which
I used for my son early on, but I definately prefer the trailer.


	- Tim

    I used to use a seat mounted on a rack until a friend of mime 2 year
    old son was killed when he was run off the road in Germany. I now use a
    trailer only.  Most of them will hold up to 100 lbs and can be used for
    many things.  We have a harness that we belt the dog in plus use it to
    carry camping gear. They are also much more visible and harder to turn
    over in a crash.  I've tried to roll mine with a bag of sand the same
    weight as my son and I could't do it.  They also have rain screens so
    on those days when it rains, they don't get soaked.  
    
    Gary