Conference noted::bicycle

    
    Rich, one good option is the XT thumb shifters, which are quick 
    reliable and cost around the same price you quoted, $125.00.
    I have Rapid fire shifters on one of my bikes and (they are 91 DX) 
    and have never had any problems with it.  You might also look into 
    Rapid fire plus.
    Check the mail order prices you could probably save some bucks. 
    
    Shaw

    After having a new BB on my rockhopper I had a simular problem. It took
    me a while to get the adjustment right. The way I ended up doing it was 
    to first adjust the high and low setting in the back. I then did the
    next to bottom gear in the back using the thumb screw. I then fine
    tuned the adjustments by paying attention to droping the chain down one 
    gear at a time. Going up is kinda a judgement thing and I found that
    while my bike was on a stand I was not upshifting the same as when I
    was on the bike. I also noticed that at first I was turning the thumb
    screw to much each time, a quarter of a turn can make a difference.
    
    Lastly make sure your chain is well oiled, a stiff chain can cause the
    same problem. It acually took me 3 tries to get it just right, but now
    that I have done it once I think I will be a lot faster next time. 
    Oh ya one more thing, if you do a lot of water riding, make sure your
    cables move back and forth easily, you might need to remove and clean
    them if they are rusty.
    
    Alan

    I have rapid fire shifter on my TREK 930. The original rear de-railler
    (sp?) broke off in the woods. I replaced it with one from REI for about
    $45. Just the broken part. As previous note said, it takes a few tries
    to get them right, but I feel it is worth the effort. 
    
                                     Bill

>You might also look into 
>    Rapid fire plus.

actually, it was the rapid fire plus that i was given the $130 price for; from
what i was told i thought that the rapid fire plus replaced the previous rapid
fire line; or does shimano actually make both rapid fire and rapid fire plus
now?

- rich

>I own a 1990 Specialized Rockhopper mountain bike with Shimano components.
>The front and rear derailer say "Exage 400 LX" on them.  It has rapid-fire
>shifters which just say "STI".

are these considered low end components, or are these middle of the line
components?  if they're low end components, then i guess i shouldn't be quite
as upset with them busting

- rich

    re -.1 your components are in the lower middle of the quality
    spectrum.  But, they shouldn't be on the verge of blowing up.
    My friend has a HardRock with 200LX components, well used and 
    "abused", and the rapidfire still shifts well.  The adjustments
    on these things are critical.  The cable tension must be precise
    in order for it to shift well. -.3 gave some great advice for adjusting
    the tension. (definitely make sure that there is no rust in the 
    cable housing!) Also, you will get some chain rub on the front
    derailleur when you are using the extreme gears (eg using the smallest
    chainring and the smallest cog, or largets chainring and the largest
    cog, and occasionally others near this boundary condition)  If 
    it rubs in any "normal gear" then you might check to see if the 
    front derailleur is positioned correctly...You can also open up
    the shift levers and clean and lubricate them.  There isn't much
    that is servicable in there, but it might help.  I'd say that your
    levers have a couple more good seasons left in them.  
    
    re -.2 they make both, depending on how much you want to spend.
    
    good luck!
    

    
    If you are going to replace them, the XT thumbshifters (lighter,
    simpler, cheaper) go for about $50 mailorder; the RP+ go for $130.
    But...your present shifters aren't necessarily bad or ready to blow up.
    Things that can affect your shifting are ; dirty chain, chainrings,
    cogs; worn chain, rings, cogs, worn derailler pulleys, bent out of line
    deraillers, If you've had your bike offroad a while, chances are your 
    drivetrain is worn a bit; also you shouldn't be shifting into extreme
    gears- it's hard on the chain (twists it) and you'll get some rubbing.
    Rule of thumb is use the small chainring with the 3 lowest gears, the
    large chainring with the 3 highest gears and the middle chainring for
    any gear. 
    	You can tune your shifters yourself (actually- the deraillers) by:
    1. Remove, clean and lube your cables (worn cable housings can also cause
    sloppy shifting,
    2. Remove, clean, lube and replace your chain (replace with new if needed, 
    but it's best to replace chain, rings, freewheel all at once)
    3. Set your high and low limit screws on the rear derailler so the chain
    doesn't go beyond either extreme.
    4. Reattaching your rear derailler cable- shift the RF to its last click to
    the outside sprocket (it's least tension setting), take the slack out
    of your rear derailler cable and reattach it. Now try to shift once to
    your next-highest gear (the second sprocket in). If it doesn't go,
    shift back down and adjust the rear derailler tension knob 1/2 turn
    counter clockwise and try it again- continue doing this until it shifts 
    up and down between the two outer gears; now leave it on the second gear 
    and continue to turn the adjuster CCW until it starts to rub a bit on the
    third gear; then back off a half turn. That should do it. Ride it and 
    try shifting up and down. if you have trouble shifting down (in) turn
    the adjuster 1/2 turn CCW; it you have trouble shifting up (out) turn
    it 1/2 turn CW.
    	On the front derailler; remember you have a half step click down on
    the shifter. So if you shift up to the larger ring and it's rubbing a
    bit, just give the upper shifter a half push in; you'll see the
    derailler move in a hair which should stop the rubbing. RF never works
    perfectly on a front derailler, but you can get it close.
    	Adjustments on the front derailler are similar; set the high and
    low limits to keep the chain from falling off; take the slack out of
    the cable with it shifted all the way down to the inside ring; make any 
    further adjustments on the shifter adjuster itself.
    
    Mike

>    Rule of thumb is use the small chainring with the 3 lowest gears, the
>    large chainring with the 3 highest gears and the middle chainring for
>    any gear. 

by extremes i meant the extremes of normal use; i know that i shouldn't expect
the lowest on the front to go smoothly with the largest on the back, or the
other way around; but if i have the front chainring set on the middle setting,
i can't go from the lowest on the back to the highest on the back without
slightly adjusting the front chainring; this didn't use to be the case

as for the bike simply being out of adjustment, i tried adjusting it, 2 friends
of mine both tried adjusting it, and the bike shop also tried adjusting it;
(and after charging me $15 for tuning the bike up, it's not any different than
when i brought it in); but i guess it's worth trying one more time before
blowing money on new derailers; however, is it possible to explain mis-shifting
and double shifting by a lack of proper adjustment?

as for saving money by not getting the rapid-fire, i know that that's an
option; however, i really do like the rapid-fire and am willing to spend the
extra money for it, provided that they're going to last; if they're going to
bust 2 1/2 years down the road again, it's not worth it at any price, imho

- rich

    Like I said before my rockhopper was shifting pretty bad, I had lost
    confidence in it because I dumped a couple of times in close places
    when I was trying to put the peddle to the medal. I think it was the
    4th time when I finally got things right. I'm not real sure what I did
    different the last time except that I tried to be more patient (sp) and 
    paid most of my attention to the real gears moving down from the larges
    to the smallest. I found that even 1/4 turn on the thump screw can make
    a difference. I have had my bike for 1 year and 3 months, I have only
    600 miles on it but they where pretty tough miles. So maybe the bike
    shop is right or maybe you should get a 2nd opinion.
    
    Alan

>by extremes i meant the extremes of normal use; i know that i shouldn't expect
>the lowest on the front to go smoothly with the largest on the back, or the
>other way around; but if i have the front chainring set on the middle setting,
>i can't go from the lowest on the back to the highest on the back without
>slightly adjusting the front chainring; this didn't use to be the case

    O.K. Now I understand what you mean. When the systems new, it should
    work without rubbing. As it gets used, the cables stretch, the cable
    housings wear, the derailler gets whacked by the chain- any of these
    things can require you to readjust the setup. While it may be true that
    your shifters are giving you fits, it's unlikely to be the cause of
    your problem. What you describe on the front is most likely caused by
    a stretched dry cable that needs to be lubed and adjusted. You have to 
    disconnect it and start from scratch to do this properly- it's probably
    not going to help to just fiddle with the adjusting barrels. 
    
>as for the bike simply being out of adjustment, i tried adjusting it, 2 friends
>of mine both tried adjusting it, and the bike shop also tried adjusting it;
>(and after charging me $15 for tuning the bike up, it's not any different than
>when i brought it in); but i guess it's worth trying one more time before
>blowing money on new derailers; however, is it possible to explain mis-shifting
>and double shifting by a lack of proper adjustment?

    Yes it is possible. Again, starting from scratch is the best way to go,
    but just to check what's happening, try this; remove your chain and put
    the bike up on a stand ; have your friend slowly shift through all the 
    gears while you stand directly behind the bike; look at the derailler
    guide pulley (top pulley); as he shifts, it should line up directly
    underneath each gear. If the shifter pulls it in an equal amount for
    each click, then there's probably nothing wrong with your shifter
    because that's all it's supposed to do. If it doesn't line up
    correctly, than any of the things previously discussed can be your
    problem. Last week I overhauled a friend's kid's bike and found the
    front hub with different amounts of bearings on each side, the handlebar
    grips mounted upsidedown and backwards, the rear bearings cranked down
    so tight the cone was jammed- all done at the local bike shop; so bike
    shops DO sometimes get it wrong- they're sometimes only as good as the
    kids they hire and sometimes they're superb. It's a tossup. I'd check 
    around your area and have another bike shop look at it before you drop 
    any money for shifters or deraillers. 
    
>as for saving money by not getting the rapid-fire, i know that that's an
>option; however, i really do like the rapid-fire and am willing to spend the
>extra money for it, provided that they're going to last; if they're going to
>bust 2 1/2 years down the road again, it's not worth it at any price, imho

    The thumbshifters don't just save you money; they're simpler, lighter
    and you can shift across all seven gears at once if you like. That's
    why they still use them on some high-end new bikes; The 8 speed XTR RP+
    is the best (at $1000 for the group), but for the budget minded, the 7
    speed with XT thumbshifters is a good alternative.
    
    Mike
    
    

    
    
    ditto on the last reply. If your RF shifters are moving the cable in
    the correct amounts, you problem is with the cable of the derailleur
    or something. I've not completely read all of the replies, but 
    I would try starting the adjustment from scratch (per last reply),
    but get yourself some brand new cable and housing (and a good
    Park cable cutter). Make sure you give the cable a light coat of 
    bicycle grease (white lithium) when installing so that it is as
    friction free as possible.  
    
    I personally have never had a derailleur or shifter last 2.5 years
    as I always manage to destroy one or the other periodically.
    For this reason alone, I'm not interested in spending the big $$$
    for Rapid Fire.  

    hi:
    
    First apologize my expression, I am not so familiar with the spec.
    terms for bicycles.
    
    I agree with those replies concerning that your problem will just be
    the adjustments and maybe I have some additional hints.
    In the last weeks we reassembled two bikes and it was not a nice job to
    adjust them.
    
    The chain must have the correct length. You can find this out when you
    put it directly (without fiddle it through the rearlever) over the biggest 
    gear rims (front and rear). When it fits strong, then add two links and
    this will be ok. If the chain is too long, then the distance between
    the lever and the rims becomes too small and you will get problems with
    the two biggest rims.
    
    Preadjust the limits of the lever without the cable connected. When you
    then screw on the cable, don't tighten it strong. You may loose
    adjustmentway for one direction afterwards.(we needed about 50km and 10
    technical stops on our last ride to find this out on one of the bikes)
    
    Start the adjustment with the middle rims and try only the two
    neighbourrims in the rear for the first adjustment and then the fine
    adjustment over all rims. Be carefull (especially with STI) that your
    shifter synchronises with the right rims. Its possible to have a shift
    of nearly two gears.
    
    Look that the whole gearshifter has the the right angle to the rims.
    With the middle rim in front and in the back the lever should be vertical
    
    If you open the lever for cleaning, be carefull to reassamble it the
    right way. It's no problem to turn the inside plate the other way
    round. Also don't mix up the small wheels, the are slightly different.
    
    Just to be sure, do you have the right cable with the right sheath?
    The "old" ones with a sheath looking like a spring won't work!
    Also for STI the cable should be free as much as possible and no sharp
    curves. If the sheath goes through from the shifter to the gearshifter 
    the friction would be too high. If you have to cut the new types of
    sheath, carefully abrade the ends, so that they are really plain.
    
    I will have to do all this too next week a second time. 6 weeks ago
    I upgraded my bike (a normal 28" touring, halfracer) from 14 gears to 21,
    greater difference in the rims (now from 36/32 to 53/14) and built in a
    STI lever. Now I get a new frame, because 2 weeks ago a had a little
    accident. Afterwards the bikeframe was few cm shorter and the front
    wheel was staying beneath the frame, but I wasn't hurt (thanks to god).
    
    Otto  

    
    Well this has nothing to do with Rapid fire but all to do with quick
    accorate shifting. In the new issue of Bicycling there is an add
    for the new MAVIC electric shifter, that claims to be most precise
    quickest but a little pricey (does not mention price though) 
    I am thinking of a new bike, as I inquired about the Trek 5500 earlier
    Does anyone have any opionons or personal experience with this?
    If what they say is true, I think it would be great on hilly roads. 
    
    In  the same issue there was also graphs of bikes and component brands
    most used. It should that in the year 92-93 86% of bikes manufactured
    were fitted with Shimano, a very small precentage Santur and same 
    for Campy. Well I never cared much for Suntur anyways but love the 
    workmanship of the Campy derailures, cranks, cogs .. is this due 
    to price and availability or is Shimano realy exceeding all others in 
    quality?
    
    Shaw

I should think that the Mavic Zap shifters would be the hot item to fit to
your bike for the next year or two, until the competition catches up. Here 
in France the complete group goes for roughly Fr12000 (ie expensive). Note 
that front shifting is conventional.


Rod

re Mavic ZAP

I had a go with them on a bike on rollers at L'Epervier, and they were 
impressive.  The more pressure you put on and the quicker you went, the 
better they changed.  I should add that they recommend their cassette with 
its own special profiled sprockets.  The Mavic stuff is really nice and one 
of the few groups that looks as if it is made by engineers, but it is 
expensive - I am considering one of their long reach front mechs, which 
hasn't got the irritating little stiffeners and knobbly bits that catch on 
the crank when you are on the big ring and the smallest sprocket.

    
    Thanks guys,  One more question, since my family lives in France, 
    (spread out from Paris to Nice). Would I be saving any money if 
    I had them buy me the complete group. Since they would be shipping
    it out would it be possible to weaver the tax, would that save me 
    money. 
    What about installation/adjustments, are they more complecated or
    could a better shop here in the US install it for me. 
    
    Thanks, 
    
    Shaw- I am going to call my local shop and get some prices for the US
    see if I can save some.