Conference noted::bicycle

    Hi Karl,
    
    The one thing this conference (and maybe MOVIES::EURO_RANDONNEUR) has
    is a super abundance of people who do this sort of stuff for the heck of
    it....
    
    My first cut 
    	1)  Make sure you've got a gear lower than the lowest you can
            imagine using. If you are not taking luggage 32x26 may be
    	    still to high. 
        2)  If in doubt, apply Rule 1.
    
    I don't know the Gro�glockner Hochalpenstra�e at all.  1600m in 23km
    is an average of 8%.  I suspect that it will start out less than this
    and end up more than this.  The technique I use for climbing long
    things like this is to find a rhythm as early as possible and then just
    keep the rhythm going, if you start to suffer pull a lower gear; the
    odds are you won't ever change up. Under no circumstances push too hard
    or get out of the saddle more than 1km from the end - unless you really
    know the way your body reacts you'll blow up and spent the next 20
    minutes trying to recover.  If you keep at a good steady state then you
    will find climbing any harder than the flat - a lot slower, but no
    harder.
    
    How to train - well on smaller things of the same type.  Climbs which
    last maybe 5 km, then 10km  ones,  you'll soon learn the technique which
    suits you, when you are about to explode when you can dig a bit deeper.
    Your muscles will get used to continual work at a rate you can keep up
    for arbitrary amounts of time.  
    
    Secondary effects you might want to think about are
    	- Carry a lot of water
    	- Eat little and often
    	- Make sure that if sun/heat is going to be a problem you leave early
    	- Don't worry about altitiude.  But don't be upset if at 2300m you
          find you cannot work as hard as you can at 1000m.
    	- Take a windcheater for the descent.
    
    Finally, don't forget to tell us about it...

     Great advice in .1 - On gearing... You'll always want a lower one no
    matter what you have... The rythm is very important.
    
      Chip

    sometimes it is good to get out of the saddle for about a minute or so
    just to stretch out and get rid of some of that lactic acid build-up
    in the legs. On a 23km climb, I would get up a few times depending on 
    how I feel.  If you don't want to blow up, don't try to raise the pace 
    when you get up and do it when the grade isn't at its steepest points.
    
    .1  I agree, establishing a rhythm is probably the most important
        thing.  It shouldn't have to be an ongoing conscious effort though.
    	The only time I realize I have established a rhythm is when I 
    	accidentally break out of it :^)
    
    -steve

    what i would do:
    
    find a very strong wall, travel at it about 25mph, crash into wall.
    
    do this until it doesn't hurt anymore.  :)

    Thanks for that fast response.....
    
    re .1)
    
    you can be sure that the story will be entered ........
    
    re .4)
    
    only a few questions on this advice....
    
    	1) have you tried this method by yourself?
    
    	2) how often was it possible to crash into the wall until you
    	   looked for a new bike
    
    	3) should I wear a helmet?
    
    	4) is it more sufficient to ride out od a plane at an altitude of
    	   10.000 ft?
    
    
    ...I can't stop laughing....great advice... we need more.....
    ...
    
    best regard
    
    Karl_in_the_mode_of_climbing_high
    
    

    I can attest that "Rich" has tried this on himself. The flat forehead
    and the slurred speech are the physical clues. A short conversation
    gives other "mental" indications of the type of training philosophy that 
    Rich adhears to. (those Castrol R fumes did a lot of damage too) 
    
    ;-)
    

hi rod, great advice.

hi karl,

it would be good for you if you took rod's advice with respect to training on
hills rather than on the flats. this familiarity will allow you to discover what
you can and can't do. trying to practice for climbing on the flats is like
practicing violin to learn to play bass fiddle.

as rod said you should bring a gear that's lower than you'd ever expect to use.
the less experienced you are with climbing or with the particular hill you're
climbing the more important having a "bail out" gear becomes.

do you have any maps like the michelin maps that have markings indicating
gradient? these might be useful because they help you know what you're up
against. i don't know i micheiln makes them for austria. does anyone at the
local bike shop know more about the climb? if they do, try to find out if the
climb is the slow-n-steady type or the flat-then-real-steep-then-flat-then-
real-steep type. i find the latter more difficult and it will require lower
gearing. the peak gradient is another good thing to try to find out.

if you know the peak and avg grade you could search out some local hill that's
not as long but steeper and practice on that one. it's good to know that, no
matter how steep the climb gets, you've done a grade that steep or steeper
before.

good luck.

ps.

you're in the flat lands of austria? isn't that like being in the mountains of
holland? ;^)

Apart from simply having sufficient fitness to do the climb, you must
accustom yourself mentally to the effort of climbing for hours on end (your
climb sounds like a minimum two hours). Even when you're fit it's still
a big effort to keep on going up a hill, especially with questions like
"Why am I doing this?" and "Why don't I just point the bike downhill?" 
floating around in your mind.

Find some smaller climbs to practise on. You'll become fit and get to know
how your body reacts. And you might have some great rides too.


Rod

    To help with the "mental toughness" angle, some time when there's
    a stiff wind, ride into it for 2 or 3 hours. Before you start pick a
    definite location as your turn around point and go for it.
    
    There's nothing quite like 12 hours of headwind.  :-)
    
    ed

    re -3 or -2?
    
    Austria is not Autralia!!!!!!!!!!!!
    an you are rigth... we dont have the Dutch mountains - we have the ALPS
    in Austria....and there are a lot of mountains not only in your
    imagination.. they are REALITY!!!!!
    
    
    
    ...Thank you for the hint "YOU HAVE ALSO TO PREPARE YOUR MIND" 
    
    I think that the question of the type "I must be crazy doing this -
    lets go downhill" would be an essential part to get rid of
    
    greetings from Karl
    
    PS: Last saturday I rode 5km assending with 5%, uphill was crazy but
    dowhill compensated the pain......
    
    One further question: any advice going downhill? e.g. is it better to 
    brake fulltime or is a hard deceleration in front of a curve better?
    
    Is it possible to "overheat" the rims and the brake?
    

    Yes, it is possible to overheat the rims.  I have gotten mine hot
    enough to burn the flesh on my hands after descending Mt Greylock
    in western Mass.  That is something like a 10% grade for a couple of
    miles.  I wouldn't worry about a 5% grade.  I knew some folk who
    would dunk their rims in water troughs part way down Mt Washington.
    
    I would brake casually but with a long preparation for curves and
    possible hidden problems.  In the eastern US, Mountain roads often
    have ledges (bare rock) protruding through road surface.  Also
    a more uniform speed makes it easier for the daredevils behind you to
    decide that they must pass you if they want to die.  :-)
    
    ed

    I would use a constant brake pressure.  The heat should be the same
    either way and if the braking fails I'd rather be going slower than
    fast into a corner.  Coming down off Pack Manadnock I've had to get
    off and walk the steep sections because the brakes just didn't do much
    for me.

    There are certain people (who I could name but won't) who descend using
    the `belly on the saddle' approach.  Check your helmet and life
    insurance before trying this, its reserved strictly for lunatics,
    although not as daft as a british pro (I cannot remember his name) who,
    during descents holds the steering by one hand on the *vertical* part
    of the stem.....

    Rims will generally only overheat if you apply the brakes.
    Be careful when overtaking cars.
    Tri-Bars are particularly effective at descending speeds.
    
    ---Alan

    Right, .14 reminded me of this:  How to use your brakes less and
    to a small degree hold your speed down, become less aero dynamic,
    sit up [relatively] straight, stick your elbows outward, etc.
    
    ed

    
    
    .13 (Rod)
    
    That's Sean Yate's style...
    
    It's important to realise that there is as much skill going down as
    there is up. I think the best way is to brake hard for the really tough
    corners and leave the brakes alone for the rest. I think most people
    underestimate just how fast a bike can corner. They drive cars around
    corners and can only do 35mph so they feel that the bike can only do
    35mph. By leaning into the corner you can go substantially faster than
    that. I've been in RRs where the bunch has passed the lead car on
    descents.
    
    By riding like this you save your brakes so that when you do need them
    they aren't already a lump of molten rubber. But, it does take time to
    build up the confidence to do this, so every time you descend, don't
    just use it as a breather after the climb, practice your descending
    style.
    
    BTW, if you plan on riding with luggage, practice descending with
    luggage. It changes the bikes handling considerably.
    
    Graham.

.15 and .16 are good advice. I'd add that it's important to have confidence
in the bike during a descent.

I don't think constant braking is a good idea. I bet it generates more
heat than less frequent and harder braking. Sit up and let the wind catch
you if you're worried about going too fast. Use the full lane width too,
especially when positioning yourself for bends. Approaching hairpins, take
a second to look all the way round to where you're going to check the
traffic situation and road surface. Be constantly alert for grit and water
on the road; you do not want to be braking while traversing these.

Btw, hand strength is important on a long descent. The first few times I
did descents, my hands were really aching by the bottom from the effort of
using the brakes. Alpine cycling can be tough!


Rod

    
    I just remembered that the UK joke, Cycling Weekly, covered both
    climbing and descending with Robert Millar giving the up-advice and
    Sean Yates giving the down-advice. I don't think that I've sent these
    issues to Valbonne yet, so if you are interested I could be persuaded
    to photocopy them and send them through internal mail to you. Let me
    know before Thursday, though, as that's when the next batch is due for
    despatch...
    
    Graham.

    Re .-1 
    
    Hi Graham,
    
    I am very interested in these articles.....
    
    My Location is AUI
    FAXnumber is   0043/222/86630/2619
    Name : Karl Kamir
    
    regards
    Karl
    

    hi Karl:
    
    Experiences from the motorbike, and also from bycicle shows that it's a 
    good way to DON'T brake permanently !
    Only use the brakes when you need them and don't "overbrake" (brake
    more then you really need)
    Also use only one brake for speed control alternating from time to time
    then you have the chance if you feel that the brake may fail, that you
    can slow done again at least one time with the second one in addition
    for a smaller (or longer ) break.
    Also I don't think that you will reach that high speed. If you look at
    the Pro's, they have about 100km/h with additional speeding using their
    legs. Without they reach about 80 with a small seat-position, and
    remember: racing-bikes !
    So with a normal bike in an up seat-position I think you will not reach
    more then 50-55. 
    And if you have a look to the critical points (curves) when climbing up
    (like ski-racers in winter), you get to know where you really will need
    the brakes. Also it helps overcoming the mindsetquestion "why I'm doing
    this" during climbing, when you look to get to know the way well for
    descending.
    
    servus Otto
    
    p.s.: Could it be, that the cares about the brakes only is a pretext of
    NOT climbing up, because the mindset isn't implemented well till now?
     

    It couldn't just be that there are people who like to ride with the
    brakes dragging a bit `just to make the climb challenging' :-)
      

The only thing I would add is don't be afraid to weave
if you run out of gears.  When I did Mt. Washington I
was the first one to start weaving.  I felt bad about
weaving in a race, but I realized that I was keeping
up with alot of the people who were riding a straight
line.  Just make sure there are no cars coming if you
have to weave up the hill.

Phil

    
    Hi Karl,
    
    A little more info on the Gro�glockner: it has prolonged, posted grades
    of 14%, making it quite a strenuous climb.  It is a very scenic,
    challenging ride, to be sure.  Added to this is the adventure of
    sharing the road with "Bremsenprobe" autos being driven by professional,
    helmeted drivers to test how long the brakes last before burning out. :-)
    (The Stilfserjoch is also a favorite for brakes-testers.)
    
    A genteel touch is at the entrance at the base of the Gro�glockner
    Hochalpinstra�e - there are toll booths, and next to them a sign
    pointing around them for cyclists (who get to climb for free, except
    for the blood and sweat of course :-)).  
    
    I climbed this pass once, in 1983, with panniers and probably a 42x28.
    It was just barely enough gearing (but that was with baggage).  Can't
    comment on the descent, for I descended the other side, down to 
    Heiligenblut and a well-deserved B&B for the night.
    
    - jodi (alias the visiting jle)

	Observations from last weekends Tour of the Kingdom on how not to climb
and descend....

	The 2nd stage was a 36 mile tail wind run from St Andrews to Falkland
Hill. Unfortunately, it was made worse by the fact that the morning stage (they
only got 1� hours between the stages) was a 63 mile stage during which the
leading break went after 9 miles and the 2nd stage too, seen the winning break
go at 9 miles. Just for variety, the next days winning break on the 94 mile
stage went after 8 miles.

	Anyway, as a result, when the riders came to the top of the 1.65 mile
climb at the finish, they were somewhat tired, after all, it is about 1 in 9.
One rider just got his back wheel over the finish line and keeled over. I
eventually left about 40 minutes later and he was still there being attended to
by the Medics. The Chief Commissaire went to see him in his hotel that night
after the hospital discharged him, and he wanted to ride the next day. The
Chief Commissaire pointed out to him that he couldn't prevent the rider from
turning up or from signing on, but if he put is wheel on the start line, he
would be withdrawn from the race. Some people have no sense....

	And now the descent story. After the stage, 2 English riders decided
to ride to their hotel. They went down the descent 2-abreast, despite not
knowing what the road was like. As they approached one notorious corner they
pedalled along oblivious to what was happening around them. Unfortunately, a
car decided to come up the hill (on it's own side of the road BTW) and the
outside rider went through it's windscreen. He is still in an Edinburgh
hospital, where his condition is supposed to be stable.

	Apart from that, the best edition of the Tour of the Kingdom yet (and
the first Scottish winner since 1984...).

Graham.

    ....horrible...horrible...horrible....
    
    how it comes that the "SPEED OPIUM" switches off the "RISK PART" of
    your brain ????
    
    for myself I can be shure that either pedaling up or down - if it is
    too risky for my helth - I would stop and push my bike beside me and
    enjoy the wonderful sight around me......
    
    By the way... the pain the biker has is bad but can you imagine the 
    
    psychical pain the driver of the car has?
    
    Karl_taking_very_low_risk_for_himself_and_the_others