Conference noted::bicycle

    for $120, these must be just aero rims with ordinary spoking, right?
    
    I think aero rims are a little stronger than non-aero and usually
    just a little bit heavier.
    
    as for individual performance, if you can do 25 mph, you will
    save something like 20 seconds on the hour.
    
    But you will look cool.
    
    ed

     Ditto on Ed's observations. They do tend to be stronger, but usually
    weigh more. Are you speaking of their Ypsilon?
    
     Don't forget the bladed spokes...
    
     Chip

The only thing I hate about areo rims is that the presta valve from the 
tube come ups a little short sometimes. It makes it a two person job to pump up
your tire because one person has to hold the hose on the valve. So in general,
try to find a tube with a long valve or go with a Mavic Open 4 CD aero rim
since they don't come to a point.

Dave
 

    
    The model in the catalog is the Omega.  Yes, is a little heavier by
    24 grams. I haven't spoken to the Nashbar folks yet so I don't know
    about the spoking.  
    
    I think I gave up 'looking cool' a long time ago but I might be at
    that dangerous age when looking cool would help.
    
    The add says that the non-aero has a "patented double-position eyelet"
    while the aero has a "eyeletless design".  Significance?
    
    Thanks again
    Jim
    
    
     

    
    Correction:  The Omega Clincher is actually 26 grams heavier than the
    aero clincher.  The Omerga 19 Clincher is lighter than the aero.
    
    Jim
    

    A double eyelet is when you have the "spoke nipple hole" in the
    rim reinforced by a little metal collar.  It looks like the same 
    rings that are in the eyelets of canvas tennis shoes.
    
    That is as far as my rim terminology goes...
    
    r�

    I thinking about building some wheels using the latest and greatest
    in trick parts (yes Chip, it might include some Ti...).  I'm looking 
    for something lightweight, aero, strong, and cool looking.
    
    The only restrictions are:
    
    Legal for USCF events
    They have to be clinchers.
    
    Any ideas?

     That's very open ended and the combinations of things are umlimited.
    Which shifting system will you use?
    
     Chip

    Re 2501.7  Shifting system is Shimano Dura Ace STI 8 speed.  
    
       

RE .7

Why must the wheels be clinchers?!?  

I don't have sew-ups but my next set of wheels will be
and everyone I have ever talked to that has ridden sew-ups
raves them.

Also since money is no object what about some carbon-fiber
spoked wheels?  According to the write up in VeloNews
Andy Hampsten will be using a Specialized Tri-Spoke in all
but the mountain stages this year.

    
> Andy Hampsten will be using a Specialized Tri-Spoke in all
> but the mountain stages this year.
    
    Isn't (or wasn't) there some (UCI?) regulation that forbade tri-spokes
    or similar wheels in road races ? I thought this was something to do
    with the amputating potential of one of these things in a crash.
    I freely admit that I might have imagined it though.
    
    Trevor

    
    
       You can get an all Ti hubset that supports the Dura Ace setup. I'm
    not sure of who makes them because I would'nt afford it anyway.
       I think the lightest durable clincher rim around these days is the 
    Mavic open 4 CD. Its also aero.
       For spokes there is the new carbon fier type spokes mentioned some-
    where in a previous Bicycling Mag. Also you can now get spokes with an
    oval crossection shape as well as of course double butted. Spoke
    nipples are available in super light alloy to save a few onces.
       Dont forget to buy nice light tires for your wheels. Richy Road K
    Force tires are sticky and have about the same weight as a premium
    racing tubular. Top it off with the Specialized extra light model of
    tubes and you'll ne flying.
       
      In my parts (Southern Ontario) I think the move is going away from
    sew-ups. I think its because there are now many light clincher rims and
    tires to choose from.
    
    

    
    
    Re. Tri Spoke
    
    	Don't think they're banned from RRs. I've seen Rooks ride them in
    the Worlds.
    
    Re. Sew ups v clinchers
    
    	Most folk do seem to be switching from tubs to wired ons. There is
    no longer any real difference in ride quality if you buy a good quality
    wired ons. The main difference is in a race a tub is quicker (but more
    expensive) to change. But buy then you've probably lost anyway...
    
    Graham.
           

    Nuke proof makes some Dura Ace compatible hubs.
    
    If I were having some trick wheels made here's what I'd
    do:  Nuke Proof D/A Titanium hubs, 28 spokes, 14/15 3X
    DT spokes in the rear, 15/16 2X DT in the front, Matric
    ISO C-II clinchers.  700-23 something tires.
    
    In fact I already did.  :-)
    
    As for trick stuff for road racing:  Have you ever wondered why the
    pro's only use the trick stuff for time trials? and not raod races?
    
    But it depends on whether win, place or show is your goal.
    
    ed

      You've gotten some good direction here. Trick stuff (wheels) are now
    legal in international racing.
    
      One point, there is a lot of "trick" stuff being used by the pros
     these days. A lot of it is not obvious. There are tons of Ti nuts and
     bolts on the top riders bicycles these days.
    
      If you like chewing up freewheels, you can pay for alloy cogs or (be
     really stupid like me and get the Ti cog set from Boone). I'm not sure
    if the composite spokes have hit the market yet, but there are Ti
    spokes out there (costly Apptox. $1.50@) and I hear they give a very
    spongy ride.
    
      There are pluses and minuses (and raging debate potential) to
    clinchers and sew-ups. Sew-ups give a better (but not that much
    anymore). They are easier to change on the road (but the good ones
    are expensive and are difficult to repair). Sew-ups are lighter, but
    not that much anymore. Clincher rims and tires have made incredible
    leaps in improvement over the years and continue to do so.
    
     Other things to consider... Sew-ups can roll off - Clinchers won't
    unless they are improperly seated. A lot of braking can melt glue and
    also bring the roll off factor into play. 
    
     They are a little messy to put on too. I do for my disk wheel and
    don't enjoy it much.
    
     The bottom line... It's what you want.
    
     Chip

    Ok, what would I avoid?  280 gm rims with 200 gm tires for road racing
    and certainly for training.  The first pothole and they're gone.
    Save them for the time trials and maybe the hill climbs.
    
    Where else do I think one can be foolish?  There was a guy on BMB last
    year who had a nine speed freewheel and a lot of Ti stuff on his bike
    including Ti crank bolts.  He pulled into a support stop and asked the
    mechanic to tighten his cranks.  Didn't mention he had Ti bolts. A
    little too much torque and they were gonzo.  Actually they didn't break
    when they were torqued but a hunnerd miles down the road they were gone
    and the crank came off.  Where's the mistake?  I woulndn't blame the
    mechanic.  I think the rider should have either told the mechanic or
    not asked for help.  Of course with 500 miles behind him in 2 days he
    probably forgot, until his crank came off.
    
    ed

    If you want to save substantial weight, uncluding your wallet,
    investigate Magic Motorcycle.  They claim 3 lb saving to standard set
    of wheels and cranks.  
    
    steve

    FOR THE ULTIMATE IN WEIGHT SAVING!!!
    
    Take up running.
    
    Gag.
    
    Ok, I'll go back to my corner.
    
    Ok, how about "Don't forget the aero seatpost!"
    
    ed

    
    
    Thank you, Mr.Fisher. Don't call us, we'll call you...  :*)
    
    Graham.

    Thanks for all the advise.  
    
    All my reasons for wanting clinchers were listed in the various responses. 
    
    I have considered the Trispokes from Specialized - I had a pair of last
    years model and they were really heavy (new model is lighter), and they
    rode REALLY stiff.  Still haven't got a straight answer if they are
    legal for USCF mass start races and the $ is a bit high.
    
    Ed came the closest to what I'm leaning towards - Nuke Proof Ti hubs,
    but with an aero rim thats a bit lighter (forgot the name) and some
    carbon fiber spokes. 
    
    As for the Magic Motorcycle treatments...well I was just kidding when
    I said "money was no object".  I can only afford to do one upgrade
    this year, so I opted to reduce some rotating weight....maybe next
    year.....
    
       

	If you realy want to buy something COOL, AERO, LIGHT and
	STRONG.

	Try Campagnolo's new  SHAMAL WHEELS

	They are made of ALLUMIUM
	Have 16 spokes made of stainless steel
	Hub is Campy record with alloy body (super light-weight)
	
	The rear Wheel with hub weigh about 1.3 Kg.

	I don't know if you can use Shimano gocs on the used hub.

	Bert.

>>	If you realy want to buy something COOL, AERO, LIGHT and
>>	STRONG.

    And very, very expensive...  :*)
    
    Graham.

    mais certainment, mon ami!
    
    ed

	Well what is expensive when you get something so COOL, STRONG etc.

	The price in Holland is about Fl 800,- ($ 450,-).

	That's not expensive if you look at all the carbon wheels such as
	the tri spoke and spengle wheel.

	It sounds to me as a reasonable substitute.

	Bert.

    I'm having a LOT of fun with rims this summer *&^%$#$%^&^ !!!!!!!!
    
    I have Mavic MA40 rims on the Cannondale.  Last year I broke the rear
    rim.  It literally broke away at the sidewall adjacent to a spoke.  Not
    the eyelet pulling through or the spoke breaking (although I've done
    that too), the rim base broke away from the sidewalls for a distance of
    approximately 1 inch.  I went into the shop where they made a quick
    call to Mavic, spoke for 15-20 seconds then turned around and pulled a
    new rim down off the wall (the shop said they were surprised Mavic was
    so accomodating and surmised a problem with the rim).

    I built the new wheel under their wheelbuilder's supervision (always
    trying to learn to do things right so I wanted to see how a "pro" does
    the tensioning and such), and it has been good until a couple months
    ago.  At that time I started pulling the nipples off spokes.  Not
    breaking the spokes, actually pulling the threads through the nipples. 
    Always on the side OPPOSITE the freewheel (where the spoke tension is
    lower).  I replaced both the spoke and nipple each time this happened
    (so far 3 or 4 spokes).  

    Last Thursday on returning from a ride I checked the wheel when putting
    the bike on the car and found the rim had broken again.  In two places
    approximately 90 degrees apart the rim has fractured adjacent to spokes
    just like last year.  Also, another spoke has pulled through the
    threads.  I picked up a new rim and spokes Thursday night and rebuilt
    the wheel because I was heading out for a weekend bike trip Friday and
    didn't have time to fool around fighting with the shop or Mavic. 
    
    Everything was fine for the 60+ miles on Saturday (didn't even need to
    retension anything, no wobble or anything).  Yesterday, after 25 miles
    on absolutely flat, perfect, paved roads - no bumps, no curbs, no
    potholes, no nothing, I checked the bike and found I'd pulled the
    nipple loose on one of the off-side spokes again.  I was riding with my
    wife, TAKING IT EASY, and never exceeded 15 mph ALL DAY!

    I ABSOLUTELY SWEAR I'm not doing anything irrational, banging over
    curbs (heaven forbid) or anything other than normal riding on the road.
    I even attempt to miss the occasional potholes we have here.  Not hard,
    not abusive, not anything out of the ordinary...

    What is going on?  I'm using DT 14 ga stainless straight-gauge spokes,
    laced 4-cross on 36-hole Deore LX hubs.  Tires are new Panaracer Tour-Guard,
    and of course, the rims are MA40s.  Do I need a different rear rim?  If
    so, what would be better?  I'm not concerned about saving the last gram
    on the bike since I'm not exactly svelte and I often carry additional
    stuff on the bike...

Is the shop selling you poor quality spoke nipples? I'm amazed that a spoke
can pull through a nipple. Come to think of it, is the spoke length long
enough - perhaps the spokes are too short and aren't screwed in far enough 
to the nipples?

Other than that, perhaps the spoke tension is way too high, or even way too
low. If it was too low, the spokes could go absolutely slack at one point on
the wheel rotation, then tighten up suddenly as the wheel turns and the
tension comes on. I'm theorising that a shock loading like that could jerk
the spoke out of the nipple.


Rod

>Is the shop selling you poor quality spoke nipples? I'm amazed that a spoke
>can pull through a nipple. Come to think of it, is the spoke length long
>enough - perhaps the spokes are too short and aren't screwed in far enough 
>to the nipples?

    DT 14 ga. stainless spokes with brass nipples (I skipped the alloy
    nipples since according to the shop they have less strength).  Spoke
    length was determined by the shop using their calculator.  When laced
    there are no threads visible on the spokes, and the spoke end is
    approximately 1/2-1 mm from the end of the spoke nipple (just at the
    bottom of the screwdriver groove across the nipple.  They APPEAR to me
    to be the right length.
    
>Other than that, perhaps the spoke tension is way too high, or even way too
>low. If it was too low, the spokes could go absolutely slack at one point on
>the wheel rotation, then tighten up suddenly as the wheel turns and the
>tension comes on. I'm theorising that a shock loading like that could jerk
>the spoke out of the nipple.
    
    I stopped at the regular shop last night and they replaced the rim.
    While examining the old one they concluded this was some kind of fluke
    since they they have heavier riders on these rims, stronger riders,
    etc. and get very few failures.  
    
    I don't think its an undertension problem but anything is possible. The
    shop has two people that are supposed to be very good wheel builders so
    I'll take the wheel in when one of them is available and have him check
    it out.  They also have a tensiometer so while truing, tensioning,
    etc., they can make sure the spoke tension is right.
    
    I pulled another nipple out last night.  In the past I've been changing
    both spoke and nipple, but the shop said the failure was almost
    guaranteed to be the nipple.  So, I unscrewed the nipple some more and
    found some brass filings in the spoke threads.  I put on a new nipple,
    re-trued the wheel and marked the spoke so I can tell if it fails
    again.  I don't know if it's useful but so far, AS FAR AS I CAN RECALL,
    all the failures have been on pulling spokes.  Much as I'd like to
    believe its because of the huge amount of horsepower I'm generating I
    don't think that's realistic...  :^)

    I have seen this flaw in MA40's before.  One was mine, the other
    belonged to Paul Morissettewho was then also a century maniac.
    
    ed

    	Dave,
    
    	It sounds like we're riding the same wheels. And, I weigh
    	in at around 295 pounds. I've never had an MA-40 break
    	or any real trouble. About all I have to do is retrue
    	the rear wheel every so often.
    
    	I wonder if it's just a bad batch of wheels?
    
    	Scott

    re -.1:
    > I wonder if it's just a bad batch of wheels?
    
    Could be some bad wheels.  The shop certainly didn't question me at all
    before pulling a new rim off the wall.  Didn't even bother calling
    Mavic, just threw the rim into the "defective" bin for the next visit
    from the Mavic rep!  
    
    Yesterday, when I put the new nipple on I forgot to mention that I
    applied a little of the purple Locktite (the hopefully REMOVABLE one)
    to the threads...  On last night's ride I hit SEVERAL significant
    pavement cracks and potholes, and a couple unexpectedly rough railroad
    tracks - and no spoke failures THIS TIME!  I still want to have the
    wheel set up and adjusted by a "professional" - just for the learning
    experience if nothing else!

>    Yesterday, when I put the new nipple on I forgot to mention that I
>    applied a little of the purple Locktite (the hopefully REMOVABLE one)

I normally put grease on the spoke threads and in the spoke holes where the
nipple sits so that adjustment is smooth and easy, and so that future
maintenance is easier too.

Then again I haven't had the spoke breakage problems you're having.


Rod

    Normally I use a light oil during assembly to make the installation and
    adjustment easier and to minimize spoke twisting.  This time, though,
    I'm completely at a loss...  
    
    Was out last night for 20 or so miles and had several instances of
    rough pavement - no pulling or damage again.  I dropped the wheel off
    at the shop last night after the ride for them to apply their wheel
    building genius and magic touch.  I'll see what their comments are
    about my neophyte building techniques are tomorrow when I pick it up!
    
    One comment made last night was that VERY OCCASIONALLY they've had
    nipples from DT that weren't sized QUITE right and didn't fit tightly
    enough onthe spokes.  Seems unlikely to me but I'm willing to entertain
    just about any thoughts at this point!