Conference noted::bicycle

    I haven't read JAPAN.TXT yet, but I want to buy an MTB before
    Christmas.
    
    One of the criteria was "American Made."
    
    What good bikes are made in the US?  Price range is under $800.
    
    The only bike I tried was a Giant Iguana, I think.  Those
    are made in Taiwan. 
    
    Kathy 

    Trek is an American company.  I don't know if they manufacture
    _all_ of their own bikes.  Many manufacturers nameplates are 
    on bikes from Taiwan.
    
    I'm not convinced that appealing to a person's principles 
    (fairplay, nationalism, etc.) can overcome more basic market
    forces (greed, marginal utility, etc.)--but that's another 
    notesfile!
    
    r�

    The low-end Treks are made in Taiwan, not sure the break point.
    Other US built machines are Cannondale and Raleigh.  The new SM700
    and 800 of Cannondale look really nice. 
    
    steve

    Few low or mid priced bikes are assembled in the U.S.  Both Trek and
    Raliegh assemble their low and mid priced bikes in Asia.  I think
    Cannondale assembles all of theirs in the U.S., but they don't have any
    low end bikes.
    
    Note that I said "assembled" in the above.  Even bikes assembled in the
    U.S. always use foreign (mostly Japanese) components.  There are no
    complete component groups made in the U.S.  The best you can hope for
    is a U.S. made frame, such as True Temper aluminum or (not cheap)
    titanium.
    
    Ken
    

    I think the TREK cutoff is somewhere around the 950, but usually he who
    sells knows.
    
    -Jesse

    	Holy sh*t!
    
    	I pulled a copy of the article over, and read it, with dread!
    
    	I am friggin' pissed off, I had no idea what's been happening!
    	International trade should be a two-way street, but that's not
    	the case, AT ALL!
    
    	I would HIGHLY recommend, everyone interested in their OWN future
    	read the article mentioned in the base note!
    
    	I'd like to reprint one of the closing paragraphs...
    
    	You see, Japan's government and companies have organized to fight
    	an economic war against us, which we are losing badly. What the
    	ordinary Japanese people allow their government and companies to
    	do is not acceptable. Outright discrimination against foreigners,
    	and treating women as 'non-people' is also not tolerable in the
    	modern world. The Japanese government and industries have treated
    	the America that helped them so much after World War II with utter
    	contempt and insolence. We had accepted their closed market, and
    	opened ours to them so they could rebuild their country and become
    	full members of the peaceful world. Instead, their government and
    	industries chose to use this generosity as weapons against us in
    	order to destroy our companies, our jobs and our national strength.
    
    	Please don't accept this as a synopsis. Get the file, and read it!

    LET US NOT GET TOO CARRIED AWAY WITH BLAIMING THE JAPANESE FOR THE
    PROBLEM.  WE OWN A PIECE OF IT OURSELVES.
    
    FOR FOURTY YEARS ADMINISTRATION AFTER ADMINISTRATION FAILED TO UPHOLD
    REASONABLE AND JUST US LAWS DESIGNED TO PREVENT THIS SITUATION.
    
    FOR FOURTY YEARS COMPANY AFTER COMPANY EXPORTED JOBS TO JAPAN ENABELING
    THEM TO GAIN THE KNOWLEDGE BASE AND BUILD THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT THE
    SAME COMPANIES ARE COMPETING WITH TODAY.
    
    FOR FOURTY YEARS THE AMERICAN WORKER HAS REFUSED TO COMPETE IN TERMS OF
    TOTAL COMPENSATION PACKAGE IN THE WORLD MARKET PLACE.
    
    FOR FOURTY YEARS UNITED STATES BUSINESS HAS SOLD INVENTIONS, RIGHTS,
    LICENCES, ETC TO THE JAPANESE AT RATES DESIGNED TO CREATE GOOD
    QUARTERLY RESULTS RATHER THAN AT THE TRUE VALUE OF THE PRODUCTS.
    
    FOR FOURTY YEARS US GOVERNMENTS CONTEMPLATING RETALLIATION AGAINST SOME
    OF THESE PRACTICES HAVE BACKED DOWN IN THE FACE OF JAPANESE THREATS OF
    RETALLIATION.
    
    THE FACT IS THAT THE US IS JAPAN'S BIGGEST MARKET.  THEY NEED US AS
    MUCH AS WE NEED THEM.  THE US AS A NATION NEEDS TO RECOGNIZE THE
    PROFILE OF THE PLAYING FIELD AND DEVELOP MECHANISMS TO RETAIN OUR
    CURRENT LEADERSHIP POSITION IN WORLD MARKETS AND A STANDARD OF LIVING
    WHICH IS COVETED BY THE WORLD.  EACH INDIVIDUAL NEEDS TO DEMAND THAT
    GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS ENFORCE OR ENACT REASONABLE AND JUST LAWS AND
    REGULATIONS, CONSISTANTLY!  EACH INDIVIDUAL NEEDS TO COMPETE, IN THE
    WORLD MARKET PLACE, IN TERMS OF WORK QUALITY AND QUANTITY SO AS TO EARN
    THE CONTINUES HIGH STANDARD OF LIVING.  EACH VENDOR TO JAPAN NEEDS TO
    DRIVE AS HARD A BARGAN WHEN SELLING TO JAPAN AS THE JAPANESE DO WHEN
    SELLING TO THE US.
    
    SOME COMPANIES HAVE BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL SELLING TO JAPAN.  ONE
    JAPANESE VISITOR TO THE US WAS SUPPRISED TO FIND HE COULD GET HIS
    FAVORITE FAST FOOD HERE.  A BIG MAC.  HE THOUGHT IT WAS NOT AVAILABLE
    OUTSIDE JAPAN.

Could you turn your Caps Lock key off, please? Thanks.


Rod

    BCA has a decent line of bikes they call Eclipse.  The frames are built
    by Giant in Taiwan, and they use all Shimano Groups and assemble the
    bikes in PA.  The Ravine models are the nicest, with the top of the
    line bike having a Easton 7000 Aluminum frame with Shimano Exage LX,
    and a suspension fork.  This bike is not available until Jan.
    
    Dave

	Aren't Bridgestones built in the US?  Mine has Ritchey Logic 
	Prestige tubing; isn't that a US product? 

      My Bridgestone RB-2 has a Japanese built frame with Shimano
     components. I'm not sure where its assembled though.
      I,m not sure how one could limit their choice to 
     buying American and insure they were going to get the bike
     which fit them best.
      

I'm not saying the article is 100% correct, I'm just saying that if there is 
some truth in it, then we should be concerned.

While I admit that the non-Japanese governments may not be entirely blameless 
for the current state of affairs, that smells a little bit like statements 
such as -

"THEY should do something"
"The union should do something"
"It's disgraceful that it should be allowed to happen"

How much of it is our own fault and responsibility?  It's a real hard decision 
when you know that a 105 gear combination will work better than the equivalent 
Campag and cost about 1/4 the price. (Maybe things are changing but this was 
the case, and I don't want to get into arguments about over-priced Campag!)  I
bought a Japanese car once, because I didn't have the money for anything else 
- it was a good car, but on principle now I won't buy another.  Perhaps if we 
all made a stand, then those in charge might get the message.

I don't think the issue is where things are made, it's the business 
philosophy behind the strategies.  It seems to me that Europe and the US are 
for free trade and the Japanese are only paying lip-service to that notion.  I 
am English but I buy French/Italian/German..... goods.  I am not a xenophobe,
but I am anti-Japanese, I did a quick inventory on two current bikes just to
test how clean (?) I am -

Winter bike:
Italy	Frameset, bars, stem, tape, seatpin, gear levers, rear hub
France	Headset, BB set, cranks, rings, Fr mech, pump, bottlecage,
	pedals, rims, tyres, tubes, rimtape, chain
UK	Saddle, front hub
Japan	Brakes, rear mech, freewheel
???	Computer (Sigma)

Touring bike:
Italy	Bars, stem, tape, gear ensemble, front & rear hubs, brakes
France	BB set, cranks, rings, pump, bottlecage, freewheel
	pedals, rims, tyres, tubes, rimtape, chain, seatpin, computer
UK	Saddle, frameset
Japan	Headset

Perhaps we can get some hard facts which we can relate to, say the costs 
of comparable things - and I suppose the availability (it's not much good 
being told that in Japan, the Look pedal costs less than the Shimano, but that 
you can't buy one, which is what the article suggests).

			UK	US	Japan	France
Look PP-whatname	xx	xx	xx	xx
Shimano 105		yy	yy	yy	yy

Campag Veloce (?)	??
Shimano 105 STI		??

    
    
    My tuppence...
    
    	Just now, I'd have to say that goods-wise, I'm not so much
    anti-Japanese, but anti-anything_not_built_in_dear_old_Blighty. As you
    may have guessed the UK economy is in a state. Now I know that the US
    economy is in a state too, but that's up to them to fix. I need to do
    everything I can to help our own economy. So I now resent paying money
    for any goods that do not get manufactured here. If it's a foreign
    company that's based here, OK, but I'd still prefer it to be a UK
    company.
    
    	This is not pig-headed xenophobia, this is just me trying to do my
    bit to help the millions who don't have a job and the struggling pound.
    If we were a much stronger nation, it probably wouldn't bother me so
    much to buy British, but just now, I see it as our only way forward...
    
    	But then again, this isn't SOAPBOX...
    
    Graham.

     I think what Robin says is true. We can't be sure what's fact and
    what's fiction. However, knowing as much about the U.S. Gov't as I
    do (and I don't think I want to know more), it's probably a lot
    worse than advertised.
    
     It's very difficult to take inventory and identify country of
    origin. I know that:
    
     Frame: Somerville, Ma - U.S.A.
     Stem:  California     - U.S.A.
     Gruppo: Italy (Campy)
     Pedals:       (LOOK)
     Wheels: France(MAVIC)
     Seat:   Italy (Sella Italia)
     Chain:  Germany Rholoff
     Seat post: U.S.A. (?) American Classic
     Handlebars:  U.S.A. (SCOTT)
     

It really shocked me too! I have been passing the article around to all my
friends and co-worker since I've read it a few days ago. 

*******************************************************************************
From the article:

There was a part in the article about the Japan anti-foreign goods laws which
are written in the form to protect the Janpanese consumers. These are applied
discretionarily and are really written to hinder foreign goods from entering
the market.

Some of the more famous ones include a law which for many years banned US beef
from the Japan because "Janpanese intestines were too short and could not
digest US beef which is too hard". An other banned european skiis because the
snow in Japan was "different". US made towels were banned because the fibers
were "too rough" for the Japanese ears, which are "softer" than ours. All
foriegn rice is banned for "national security". Rice in Japan as a consequence,
is most expensive in the world.
*******************************************************************************

I check the part about the skiis with some of the ski reps in the shop I work
at and they indicated they only got into the Japanese market 3 years ago but
they have to sell it at inflated prices $1,000 for a $350 US ski and they only
can sell it through a Japanese distributor. He said most of the people ski on
Yamaha and another Japanese brand that starts with an (N). 

As for bikes, 

All Cannondale frames are all made and built in Pennsylvania.

I suppose Some of the high end Treks are made in the US but most of the 
lower lines are assemble in Taiwan 

I think this is the same for Raleigh. There Aluminum bikes are probably my in
the US but their Cro-Mo stuff is probably Taiwan.

Bridgestone is a Japanese company so there High end stuff is assembled in
Japan and lower end in Taiwan. Some of there high end stuff is going with
Ishiwata frame and you know where that is from.

Most Components are from Japan with the exception of Campy and Mavic. 

I recently brough a Japanese car two years ago and I push the Bridgestones
bikes in the store I work at but after reading the article. I am probably going
with a Saturn and pushing the Cannondale's. I would recommend this article to
anyone thinking about buy Japanese product in the future. It's a eye opener.


Dave

    re .13
    
    The way Sterling is going, we won't be able to afford anything
    imported soon, Graham. When I did the inventory on my bike, what
    I did find was there is _nothing_ British on it whatsoever. It's
    largely Taiwanese (Specialized carbon frame) Japanese (Shimano
    of various groupies) and has miscellany from most of mainland
    Europe (French rims, German tyres, Italian contact points - bars,
    stem, saddle and the all-important Campag aero-seatpost). Maybe I
    should hang my head in shame at all this, or just hope the British
    trade deficit gets hidden in Europe.
    

	Dave: those ski's are Nishizawa's.  Mark and I each have a pair.

Re .13:  I'd love to buy British components, but I seem to have forgotten
just who the British manufacturers are for brakes, gears, aero seatposts...


Rod

    
    Re.18
    
    	Could always buy a Brookes saddle with Ti rails... Seriously
    though, I admit that it's hard with a bike (I ride a Dutch frame and
    Jap parts), but my note in .13 was not only specific to cycling parts.
    
    Buy Campag, the Italian economy is nearly as bad as ours...  :*)
    
    Graham.

    And Brooks are owned by Sturmey archer so there is your problem of
    brakes, gears and spokes sorted out.
    
    Don't know of any reputable frames tho' :-)

    
    
      I found the ariticle to be interesting but not really eye opening.
    
      From my limited experience the Japanese are a fiercly loyal people.
    Loyal to their family, their employer or their government.  This
    loyalty seems to propagate a tremendous sense of self-importance.
    In other words, the Japanese feel what THEY need is much more important
    than what anybody else needs.  Hence, the Japanese are going to do
    whatever it takes to make sure they get what is best for them.  This is
    done with a single minded drive towards an virtually unattainable goal.
    
      The U.S. on the other hand is based on a Free Market system.  The
    system implies fairness to everyone who wants to give it a try.  This
    fundamental principle will not allow the U.S. to impose special laws
    on any one foriegn country.  The closest the government comes are trade
    embargos (which have to be politically not economicaly imposed) and
    tariffs. 
    
      I could now go into a tirade about how stupid the U.S. federal
    government is and how it is driven by greed more than principal.
    But I won't.
    
      Let it suffice to say that "all is fair in Love in War" and Japan
    is simply playing their cards to the fullest.  They realize that the
    U.S. will continue to buy Japanese goods, will continue to contract
    work to Japan and will continue to provide new ideas for the Japanese
    to aquire and use.
    
      If change comes.  It will be in Japan and not the U.S. (unless of 
    course the national debt finally topples the federal government)
    
    
    O.K. enough about politics.
    
      My Bike:
    
      Frame - American made in Italy
      Handlebars and stem - Made in Italy
      Saddle - Made in Italy
      Rims - Made in France (racing wheels from Italy)
      Everthing else is from Japan
    
      So what does this prove?
    
      John C.

    
    
    Sad but true.  It is in many ways a clash of cultures.  We the 'free
    for all and make a quick buck' culture and their 'move as a unit, and
    win the war' culture.  This has been a very bad mixture for our
    electronics industry, the British Motorcycle industry, everyones
    automotive industry...and the next in line if we don't watch it, the
    computer and advanced elctronics industry.
    
    I try my best to keep to American and European made products:
    
    Thus: 2 Bicycles, one British Frame (R.E.W. Reynolds), one Italian
    (Bianchi).  Both mostly Campy with some Mavic sprinkled in.
    
          2 cars, one American (Mercury Sable), one German (Audi)
    
    But alas, try to find a TV or a VCR that is not Japanese or Taiwanese!!
    
    8^(

    It is possible, if your interested to spec out about 90% American made
    bike.  For example:  Frame:  Any custom builder
    			 Rims: Sun Metals
    			 Spokes: there is a new company in Indiana, forgot
    			         there name
    			 Hubs: Nuke Proof, Phil Wood, American Classic,
    			Bulls Eye
    			 Crank: Magic Motorcycle, Grafton
    			 Brakes: Mathauser Hydrolics (sp), many cantilever 
                                 brands
    			 Headset: King
    
    			 Non American:  Derailleurs, saddle, tires
    
    My/My wife's collection of 6 bikes (2 touring, racing, tandem, 2
    mountain), all but one (wife's mountain) are US made (frames). 
    
    steve

    
     I really believe in the bike market the Japs still cannot match the
    Italians, French, Americans for quality and value for the money.
    I have a hard time understanding how the sheer volume of Shimano
    got sold out there. This is a real stickler for me   ?? :-( ?? and 
    after reading the article I'm sorta peeved at the whole Japan situation.
    
     The thing I hear most is "xxxx components are too costly and Shimano is
    cheaper and works just as well".
    
    My answer - 
     
      Yea but which lasts longer? It works well on the show room floor
    but what about 5000K later?
      How much is a non failure worth to you the day or hours before a big
    cycling event youve been training and looking forward to? And what
    about a failure during a ride miles from home when you are possibly
    alone.
      Take a Shimano component such as a rear der and lay it beside
    a non-Jap rear der like Mavic or Campy. Which one is better built?
    Which one looks stronger? The answer probably will not be Shimano.
      I bought some Shimano brake levers 2 years ago. They are not literally 
    falling apart. On one lever the hole through which the shaft goes
    that the lever pivots on has become a large oval hole, just under normal
    use. This causes the lever to creak loudly every time the brakes are
    applied. Since the hole is so oversized no amount of oil will stop the
    noise. With another 4 or 5 thousand Ks the lever will be falling right
    off I'm sure. The thin rubber on the other lever has torn on the top
    just from normal use, no crashing, and I doubt if it will see 3 years of
    use.
      Have you ever seen a hub fail on a ride? Just through normal use? I
    have seen 2 hubs fail on training rides. One failure was brought about
    by a bumpy road, the other in a sprint. With the sprint failure the
    stress placed on the back wheel caused part of the flange to crack
    and break. So the hub flange broke off before the spoke broke. The
    spoke was stronger than the flange. Take a look at the flanges on a
    Dura Ace hub, notice the thickness; then compare to a Campy or Mavic
    hub.
      Ask a Dura Ace STI user and Campy Ergopower user if their setup
    shifts as good or better than when they bought it. The answer will be
    No and Yes respectively.
       
      

    I'm not (yet) going to dive into the free-trade vs protectionism battle
    (can you say `rape seed oil' `President Delors'?  Yes, I knew you
    could)
    
    But as I read .24 I thought that what this indicates is that the
    Japanese may have nicely judged the market.  The OF's amongst us will
    still buy high quality, durable components which will last for a
    many 10's of thousands of miles.  However isn't 90 percent of this
    conference an indication that a  lot of cyclists are techno-weenies ?
    
    We just *love* to buy the new 9 speed, change-by-thinking-about-it,
    beryllium-hubbed gadget  (Yes I admit it).  But if the Campy changer
    that you bought for 10/6 in 1969 is still doing good service, it's very
    hard to throw it out.  However if the Weineman (I know its not Japanese,
    that's why I chose it) `105' Brakeset which came with your bike when
    you bought it, has corroded to the level wheere it is completely
    unadjustable you have no qualms...

     Being a "techo-weenie" and damned proud of it, I'll answer the
    question posed in .24; Yes! (to my Ergos) And No! (to my Dura Ace
    set-up on my TT bike).
    
     Gee, it's nice to see some Campy supporters out there... The worst
    thing (aside from failure) that I've seen is all the chrome plating
    peeling off a Dura Ace STI shifter - Ugly!
    
     Off the subject for a moment... Anyone seen the new Dura Ace teensy-
    weensy pedals yet or know anything about them? I told George Gamache
    I might consider them if he sands off the words Dura Ace on the side!
    
     BTW, as far as I know I don't have one piece of Japanese metal, rubber
    or leather on my Merlin. I'm proud of that too! So let's rock & roll!
    
      Chip

    
    
    a)    What was that talk I heard a while ago about Japan being in some
          ecomonic trouble?
    
    b)    So I guess the best thing for countries to do is ban Japanize
          imports and set up Keiretsu s.  Ya right.
    
    
    

    
    >> What was that talk I heard a while ago about Japan being in some
    >> ecomonic trouble?

   The Japanese Stock Market is not flourishing like it once was.

   If you look back at the article,  one of the points that is mentioned
 a few times is the fact that Japanese products are first tested on the
 home market.  They are sold at 3 times the price so that the companies can
 afford to "dump" the fully tested and improved products abroad.  Think about
 that for a minute.  A dura-Ace deraileur would cost about $240 dollars.  This
 $240 deraileur would be a proto-type piece, with unproven performance.  How 
 long do you think even the Japanese people will put up with paying 3 times the
 price for merchandise that is not up to the same quality standards the rest
 of the world is paying much less for.  I know I would'nt take it for long.

   In my earlier reply I mentioned that if change came, it would come from
 Japan.  The reason I said this is because change is taking somewhat higher
 precedence in Japan.  The Japanese worker is becoming less devoted.
 The younger generation that has grown up with proserity is seeing what life
 is like in the west. They want to live more like we do.  With 3-4 weeks of
 vacation a year, an 8-hr workday.(well sometimes)  One of the newer status
 symbols among the affluent younger generation in Japan is a large american 
 sedan.  
   Eventually the old guard of Japan is going to die off.  I'm not saying that 
 Japan will lose all of its old world tradition and values.  But, I do believe
 that as the rest of the world begins to penetrate the Japanese pshyce these 
 values will become less dominant.  Japan is a powerfull nation.  Power currupts.
 It always has and it always will.  Just look at the U.S. congress.

   Then there is the true Japanese achilles heel.  They have almost no natural
 resources.  The way I perceive it, the only true natural resource Japan has
 is the people.  If anyone cut off Japans supply chain,  the Japanese would be
 on their knees in no time.  Thats one of the reasons they were willing to 
 bankroll part of the Persian Gulf war.  It threatened them and their supply
 chain.  Since World war II the Japanese have not been allowed to rebuild their
 Military forces.

   Oh boy, look at this.  I'm way gone off and rambled long enough for 3 replies.
 Sorry if a bored anyone who came in here looking for talk about bicycles.
 I did mention the word "deraileur" so I'm at least partly covered. ;-)

  John C.

    
    
    RE .28
    
    Yes, I agree the current Japanese system will change as newer
    generations come along...but hell that will take 50 years or more!!
    In the meantime not only are we losing whole industries...but even the
    knowledge base needed to start new 'production' industries!  Scarey.
    
    RE previous
    
    Oh yea I did forget about my Phil bottom brackets on both bikes and my
    Phil hubs - 10 years old and like new!  My old bike still has the 10
    year old Campy Super Record brakes (like new - except the hoods are
    strarting to crumble - can you buy new hoods anymore?) and the Record
    Cranks are still going strong.  I admit I swapped out the rear
    derailleur for a Chorus indexed...but hell the old one still worked
    like it did 10 years ago!!  That stuff is worth the extra money!!
    The problem is that some people can't afford it...and some don't keep
    stuff long enough for it to matter.
    
    It does matter to me...so I choose Campy...same reason I bought an Audi
    instead of a Toyota.
    
    -Steve
    

    Steve not to start a rathole, and my decision wasn't based on 
    helping the Japanese either, but for the same reasons, I sold my
    Audi for a Toyota, (give the Audi, three years or untill the warrantee
    runs out........ :-))  After $52,00 in repairs the minute my warrantee
    was out, I decided Audi's were not like other German cars.
    
    Shaw 
    

    	Re - .13, .18, .20
    
    	I can suggest two reputable frame manufacturers in England,
    
    	Raleigh - still making handbuilt frames in Nottingham
    	(My 20 yr. old Professional was hand-built/painted in Carlton factory)
    
    	Claud Butler *
    
    	* Don't know if C. Butler is still in business...

    .... not to mention numerous local people (sandy G's in Edinburgh
    springs to mind ...
    
    My .20 was a gentle dig at Roddy's Ti Monster....

     Steve, you can get the Campy hoods, but (hang on to your home equity)
    they run about $25.00 - $30.00 a pair!!!
    
      Chip

    
    
    Oh my...$30!!   You think my wife would buy this as my reason for
    buying Ergo levers for the Bianchi?  "But dear, that way I can use the
    old Bianchi levers on the Reynolds...saving $30!!!"
    
    In my dreams.  So who carries these Golden hoods?
    
    Campy Lovers Unite!
    
    -Steve
    
    P.S. I sure hope my Audi doesn't STB when the warranty is up!  7K miles
         go!!!

     Gamache's has 'em... I know he's got a couple of real die-hard
    Campy fans (my being one - what do those $ signs in his eyes mean
    when I walk in). He even has some of the older Record (Nuovo/Super)
    components kicking around.
    
     Chip

    
    
    Thanks!  I'll have to check them out.  
    
    -S

    Bob Jackson frames are built in England, aren't they?

    However, Colorado Cyclist is going to quit carrying Bob Jackson
    frames, and start carrying Eddie Merckx (sp?) frames.