Conference noted::bicycle

    No solutions (yet) but a some questions:
    	What do you have on the back right now ?
    	What do you want to put on ?
    	What rear changer do you have and do you intend to change it to
    	make up the difference ?
    
    I ask this since I am wondering what to take to the Alps next summer.
    
    Rod
    
    PS Next time you cycle round the lake you might want to stop off at
    the bikeshop in Evian.   I seem to remember them as being pretty good,
    otherwise try the back of cycling weakly or Nadio in Aix-en-Provence :-(

    And beware the front changer. I believe Shimano and Suntour have put
    their triple rings closer together, and fiddled the changers to suit. I
    had a terrible time trying to make a front changer work with the
    StrongLight 39D I fitted this summer. The experience has convinced me
    not to bother with a triple when I build the racing machine.
    
    btw I second you on the Mavic chainset. I saw one on Sunday and it is
    amazingly ugly.
    
    ---Alan

Re .1:  At the back I have either a 13-23 or 12-28 hyperglide cassette. I'd
intend to use the 13-23 with the triple chainset. The rear changer is Shimano
105SC. It's in its second season of sterling service and I see no reason to
change it. I'm sure I wouldn't have to, the required capacity would be very
similar to my 52-38 and 12-28 combo, and the 105 rear changer handles that
alright.

Re .2:  Your comments are a little worrying since the front changer I would
use is a nice Suntour one I already have on the other bike. What specific
problems did you experience?


Rod

    What about using a quality ATB one with an 12-18 in back? That should
    get around the limitation problem on the largest ring.
    
    John

Rob's got a 300, with 32/42/52 and it's not bad.  It looks as if it uses the
Shimano/TA pitch circle for the middle and outer and the the inner bolts on the
inside of the crank arms.  Being a cheapskate I have the 80/100 which have all
three rings interchangeable and I find them perfectly adequate.  If you are
really looking for a "racing style" triple I think the only way to go is Mavic,
- disgusting style but mechanically superb.

Back to THE GREAT GEAR NOTE.......

How about 32/40/50 by 14-18,20,24 (7-speed), or
          30/40/48 by 14-17,19,23 (6-speed)

I know it's a bit wimpy only having 48 or 50 maximum, but I rarely get dropped
going downhill, only uphill.....

Entries being taken for Le Bouquet, L'Epervier, La Rene Vietto, La Bernard
Hinault etc, etc...    and I forgot to mention - I just found a reference to a
"permanent brevet" Hendaye to Collioure, the length of the Pyrenees, 700 km in
100 hours......

Re .4 and .5:  I have considered the possibility of using an ATB chainset
with, say, 48-38-28 chainrings, and something like a 12-21 cassette at the
back (Shimano do make one like that). This would follow the lead Suntour have
given with their Microdrive stuff.

But I'm not that keen on using an ATB chainset and I'd need to buy a new
cassette as well... 


Rod

	re. 0

	Suntour used to make a road triple, or at least they did in 1989. It
	was part of their "Edge" group which was roughly equivalent to
	Shimano 105. It was the standard equipment on the Trek 1100 of that 
	year.

	Mine is 52-42-28.

	-tom

    Most touring bikes have triples. The Bridgestone RB-2 has/had one,
    and I think that bike wasn't targetted as a tourer - think it had
    suntour components.
    
    John

    I have  a  Shimano  Deore  crankset  with 54-50-28 chainrings. The
    inner  chain  ring  has  a smaller bolt circle than the outer two.
    After 1500 or so miles it's working fine. I think that even larger
    chainrings  may  be  available,  but the 54 was the largest easily
    available.

--David

    
    What about a "TA" crank?  
    
    
    					Norm
    
    

Re .10:  A Deore with larger rings than normal might be nice, but can you
get non-standard size rings for Shimano any more?

Re .11:  Biassed judgement time again; I think TA cranks look horrible.
Besides the bolt circle is tiny, so maybe the rings are a bit floppy.


Rod

    Rod,
    As Robin says I've a Stronglight 300lx and it doesn't look too bad.
    Our good man Fusberti recommended a Suntour changer to replace the
    105 front changer I had on the 2-ring chainset. The Suntour
    changer has provided excellent service.
    The rear is a Shimano 105 changer.
    
    Only thing I'd change right now is the BB axle; the one supplied
    by Fusberti (Stronglight) is a little too long, I'd like to bring
    the chainset in closer to the frame, (since I mostly only use
    the 42 tooth ring when climbing locally  ...honest...!; the 32 teeth
    becomes a necessity on the longer runs... ) to get the chain aligned
    a little better.

All
Don't get the idea Rob is an animal because he "only uses the 42 locally" - he
omits to add that he has a 26 bottom cog......  Anyway I seem to remember he had
the 32 in action last time we went up the Col de Vence.  The thing you have to
watch also is that some front mechs have a "ridge" on them, and to clear the
outside ring they come very close to the crank unless you have the latest
"dished" or "offset" arms. 

Rod
If you persist in using big rings you will always be worried about flex - can
you really justify 52x12??  The only real reason I can think of for large rings
is that if you have a braze-on front mech - you may not be able to drop it
low enough for (say) a 48 because it is expected to handle up to 56. Yet another
reason to stay conventional and not use "funny bikes".

PS Fitted mudguards yet??
PPS Bl---y raining again in Valbonne!!

     Okay, I'll ask the obvious... Being from the New England area in the
    states, I am subject to hilly but probably not mountainous like some
    European areas... I gotten by with a 42/53x12x21 set-up and have
    recently moved to the same chainring set-up, but 8spds 12x23...
    
     For general road riding, is a triple really necessary????
    
        Chip

No, for general road riding, they're not necessary. But it's bumpy round here.
The only flat ride locally is round the lake, and that's a bit dull on busy
roads. If you go in any other direction you'll accumulate about 1% of climb
even avoiding cols. The cyclo-sportif events, which are about 130-200km long,
typically stick in about 2500-5000m of climb. This means hours and hours of
grinding up 7 to 12% hills. Let me tell you, you pretty soon stop worrying
about stylish climbing: survival is what it's about. And that means having
a wide range of closely spaced gears. 

So at the moment with my two-ring set-up I've got the range, but I'd like the 
spacing closer. That's why I'm thinking of a triple.


Rod

No, of course it isn't essential - I rode for years on 50 or 52x21 fixed for
general riding and just put on a 17 for racing.  But this was in the flatlands
of Essex, UK.

Now in Valbonne, it's different....
I find I need 1 tooth difference for gears between 54 and 90, I can tolerate 2
and 3 teeth jumps below 50".  Even as Rod says "grinding up great ills", I need
a comfortable gear to keep the climbing going.  I borrowed a bike in the UK last
weekend with a wide ratio 49/38 x 15,18,20,23,26 and found it most uncomfortable
- I never seemed to have the gear I needed (I was grateful for it to get in a
few km however).

The only way to get a flat trip round here is to put the bike on the car, and
pose up and down the Bord de Mer.

Ipso Fatso (to quote Wellington) - I need a triple.

Re .11 (referring to my .9):

    I bought my Shimano Deore, with 54 tooth chain ring this spring. I
    don't  remember  exactly  when.  I  don't  know  if  they're still
    available,  but  expect  that  they are. Cyclopedia in Michigan is
    particularly  good  at  having  odd parts, so you could check with
    them if you can't get it on your side of the pond.

Re: 3 chainrings

    I'm sure  that  strong  climbers  don't  need a triple, but for us
    ordinary  riders, if we're to maintain a 90 cadence at 8 mph going
    up hill, we need 30" gears. I frequently go below 8 mph on a steep
    hill, particularly if the bike is loaded. I routinely use gears in
    the  mid 20" range, and have used the 20" gear on our tandem quite
    a bit in the mountains.

--David

    RE:11
    
      Odd looking, yes.  Ugly, no.  I was drawn to the TA crank not by it's
    looks but by how functional it is.  The crank excepts anything from a
    17 tooth to over 100.  They will custom build any size.  All three 
    chainring positions have the same size bolt circle.  I was able to
    build a 58-48-38 for my racing tandem.  With a normal triple I couldn't
    get a 58 for the outside or a 38 for the inside.  
      I have not noticed any chainring flex.  I was worried about this when
    I purchased the crank.  TA makes reinforced and non-reinforced
    chainrings.  I bought the reinforced.  The only rubbing I have noticed
    is when I don't have the front derailleur adjusted properly.  Ask Chip
    if the rings rub.  The TA crank is on the stokers right side.  The
    other three crank arms are Ultegra.  Chip stoked for me at a time trial
    when we buried the 58x12 top gear.  Next year I will be running a 62 or 
    64 tooth for time trials.  Maybe some aero bars and aero seatposts as
    well.  
    
    							Norm
    
    

    Re .2, .3, .13
    Note .13 explained the problem I was having. The Shimano and Suntour
    mechs that I have seen (and have fitted) have some device on the
    outside plate to make it of more than negligible width. So it rubs on
    the chain or bangs the crank in the top 2 gears on the big ring.
       This and the recessed crank business sounds like another
    buy-it-all-from-us conspiracy.
    
       If the appropriate chainset solves my problem, does anyone know
    a racing triple that will fit an Ultegra bottom-bracket ? Whose BBs fit
    whose cranks anyway ?
    
    ---Alan

	The triple chainring debate seems to have gone a bit quiet, so I
thought I would stir it up again, not to prove how macho we are in VBO, more to 
describe a typical morning ride down here, and try to indicate why we use 3
rings.  Last Friday was Toussaint so we naturally had a day off - as it happens 
we chose the best morning of the weekend and had a very pleasant trip over
the Col de Vence in sunshine, although it was a bit cool at times.
	Rob braved shorts, I'm not sure whether or not he regretted 
it, but I personally was glad of the thermals.  I give you a profile of the 
trip from and back to the world famous Pre-du-Lac carpark, I got the altitude 
in feet as well (and that makes interesting reading for some-one like me who
was brought up where the max height was 440 feet),  but leave the translation
to miles to yourselves.  61km and about 1200 metres climbing, but the max 
gradient is probably only 10%.

metre (feet)
1000-|(3280)                         V Col de Vence(970)
    -|                        *      *
 900-|                       *    *
    -|                     *          *
 800-|                    *
    -|(2460)                           *
 700-|                  *               *
    -|                                                       Pre du Lac
 600-|               *                   *                   Start |
    -|              *                                        Finish|
 500-|(1640)                               *      Tourettes        v
    -|*           *                                  v             *
 400-| *         *                          *        *            *
    -|   *                                         *   *         *
 300-|    *    *                               *         *      *
    -| (820)                                              *   *
 200-|      *                                                *
    -|      ^ Pont du Loup
 100-|
    -|0   Km   10        20        30        40        50        60
   0-||----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
     

Well, since you ask... I did part of next year's TdF route. Excellent news for
the Geneva locality - they're doing the Saleve! The Saleve is a great 
whale-like lump of rock that looms over Geneva (tho it's actually in France). 
You can go across it or along it, and I went across, up a nasty little road
from Collonge (about 500m) to Croisette (1176m). You gain 600m in 6km, so it's
a bit of a struggle (especially when you see another cyclist on it and
you're trying to catch him). If I had a third chainring I'd have been in it.
Great ride though, 75km all told in beautiful autumn weather.


Rod

    Rod
    
    You can put a third ring on a Shimano 600 chainset: I am inclined to
    believe this works because it was done (not for me) in the bike shop in
    Antibes, which is a good shop. It is a bit of a fiddle but the result
    looks OK. Daniel the owner said he could convert my Shimano to a
    triple, but I have refused for the moment.
    
    John

That's interesting. I'm inclined to believe it's a bodge, though, and 
wouldn't it require a new bottom bracket to clearance for the inner ring?

I found a Stronglight 300lx chainset to have a look at the other day. It's
reasonably pretty, if not quite as well finished as Campag or Shimano. 


Rod

    Sorry to hark back to the old days again but.....
    in the old days if you wanted to change from single to double or triple
    you just changed the spindle to a longer length one (longer length on one 
    side only of course). Do the modern manufacturers not make different 
    length spindles any more?
    
    Chris

    OH, they often mak different length spindles.  But the ends of the
    spindles often have minutely different shoulders so that they don't
    fit any old crank.  So you need Shimano something axle for Shimano
    something crank, etc.  There are many compatibilities but also
    many incompatibilities.
    
    ed

    As suggested elsewhere, I'm replying a series of notes from miles &
    aims into here.  If you've already read them I propose a next unseen
    now, also the owners of these notes might want to delete thire
    postings..
    
    Rod (not a mod, and without enough time to do this, but it was myself
    who caused the furore...)

               <<< GOOFOF::NOTES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BICYCLE.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -<  Bicycling  >-
================================================================================
Note 2152.37                     Miles&Aims 1992                        37 of 45
JURA::PELAZ::MACFADYEN "Only scratching the surface"  8 lines  25-JUN-1992 04:23
                               -< Raining again >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Norbert, I use a wimpy 38 chainring, so it was 38x24 or 38x21. It
all blurs into the red mist anyway, as I'm sure you know. And heaven
knows there's been enough mist, cloud and rain this June. Good luck
with the weather, Robin. If it rains I shall think of you as you thought
of me.


Roddy

================================================================================
Note 2152.39                     Miles&Aims 1992                        39 of 45
IDEFIX::HEMMINGS "Lanterne Rouge"                    18 lines  25-JUN-1992 06:45
                         -< Vot is zis vimp, anyvay? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re -.2

Wimpy 38 indeed, how do you think I feel with 30 & 36 on the inside?  I can't
even boast a 12 to go with the 48!!

Rod's remarks on triples by Shimano, Campag etc are interesting - Rob has a
Michenon catalogue which does in fact list such things.  Generally speaking,
however these guys are concentrating on the racing/posing market and you will
be lucky to get other than 32/42/52 - I ask you, what use is 52 to a serious
tourist.  (Don't bother to say that it's for pedalling downhill, that is just
garbage, down here you get so quickly up to a speed at which you can't pedal
anyway.)

On the other hand Stronglight seem to have cornered this market with their 100,
300 and now 1000 sets.  Not only do you get a choice of price and quality, but
the range of available rings (and not wait 6 months) is second to none.

Vive la difference!!

        I have heard that Stronglights do not mix with Shinmano and Suntour front 
    mechs. Can someone comment and suggest alternatives (MAVIC) This is of 
    interest to me since I'll be buying a Stronglight triple on Saturday.  
    
    As for tooth count, well Robin you were the one who sent me a flyer from 
    Mavic claiming that 
    
    `Pour L'elite, un module 53/47/38 ... assure un parfait continutite des
    rapports'  
    
    (For the elite a 53/47/38 give a perfect spread).
              

Note 2152.41                     Miles&Aims 1992                        41 of 45
JURA::PELAZ::MACFADYEN "Only scratching the surface" 12 lines  25-JUN-1992 07:31
                   -< One aim is to acquire triple chainset >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    I have heard that Stronglights do not mix with Shinmano and Suntour front 
>    mechs. Can someone comment and suggest alternatives (MAVIC) This is of 
>    interest to me since I'll be buying a Stronglight triple on Saturday.  

I'm glad to hear that. I'm very close to buying a 300LX myself - now I can
wait and see how you get on! Incidentally I had a look at the new Stronglight
1000 chainset a few weeks and wasn't overly impressed. The finish didn't seem
any better than the 300LX and the price is vastly higher. Am I ignoring
some important feature of the new chainset?


Roddy 

Note 2152.42                     Miles&Aims 1992                        42 of 45
IDEFIX::HEMMINGS "Lanterne Rouge"                    28 lines  25-JUN-1992 09:23
                           -< You need to fiddle... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re .40

I have 3 Stronglight 100's, 2 of which are triples on my bikes and 1 double
on my wife's bike.

On the Raleigh, I have Campag Chorus front and rear which work OK, although the
front change is a bit slow and you have to overshift, but it's OK for a
sensitive person like myself.  You have to watch you don't overshift when going
to the outside ring, but then you have to watch that with a Chorus gear and
Chorus double chainset - Campag don't seem too good on wide ratios and their
cheaper ranges. (Triple of 30/36or38/48 by 13,15,16,17,19,21,25 Raid set-up).

On the Vitus, I have a SunTour (ex Rob Rowlands) front and Ultegra 600 rear -
this works better, the best was 600 front and rear with 39/52 double, but that
front mech won't handle the small inner or the throw for a triple. (32/40/50 by
14,15,16,17,18,20,24 is the current set-up).

I have also sitting in a box, a Sachs New Wotnot front which I used on a
32/40/50 setup last year together with an ancient long-arm SunTour - that was
OK as well.

The crunch is that you have to watch out for front mechs with a 'fold' in the
outside of the cage to strengthen it.  This means you have to have the cage
further out and unless you have bought a new trendy 'dished' chainset (say
Shimano at xxxxxxxxx yen) then it fouls the crank.

I would recommend the Stronglight 300 with the Sachs-Huret front and a long-arm
Shimano 600 rear as being this week's best buy.

Note 2152.43                     Miles&Aims 1992                        43 of 45
JURA::PELAZ::MACFADYEN "Only scratching the surface"  6 lines  25-JUN-1992 10:24
                             -< Three-ring circus >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shimano do make a racing triple, now I think about it: I have seen a 
three-ring version of the RX100 chainset (like 105SC without the paint).
Trouble is I don't believe they sell it as an after-market item.


Roddy

Note 2152.44                     Miles&Aims 1992                        44 of 45
MOVIES::PAXTON "Mind my harp!"                       13 lines  25-JUN-1992 12:26
                                -< Meanderings >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    S'funny how things like that happen in 3s. I saw a Cannondale R500 w/
    RX100 racing triple in Ricycles at the weekend. I didn't look at it for
    long though, my eye was distracted by possibly the ugliest bicycle that
    I've ever seen - a 'dale R900, 2.8 frame in dull silver paint with
    garish Stars and Stripes logos and C a n n o n d a l e writ too large.
    
    To the point - I happen to like my Shimano LX triple chainset w/Shimano
    Deore XT front changer. But if they can't share rings, that's no use
    to you. The neat thing about MTB sets is 28/38/48 (or similar) standard
    rings. I could really do with 30/38/46 to fill in the holes a bit, but
    nothing's ever perfect.
    
    ---Alan 

>    To the point - I happen to like my Shimano LX triple chainset w/Shimano
>    Deore XT front changer. But if they can't share rings, that's no use
>    to you. The neat thing about MTB sets is 28/38/48 (or similar) standard
>    rings. I could really do with 30/38/46 to fill in the holes a bit, but
>    nothing's ever perfect.

    For the Shimano triple you can also get a 44 middle ring (I've also
    heard you can get a 42) and a 50 outer.  My Cannondale (NOT THE
    INCREDIBLY UGLY ONE!) came with a Deore DX 28/44/50 which I switched
    for my spare Deore XT 28/44/48 which I like since it gives me good
    half-step gear ranges.

    If you go to a tandem supply house, they usually have almost any
    chainring combo that fits the standard bolt diameter of shimano/suntour
    triple.  In our case, we have 32/44/54.
    
    If needed I can get the phone number of a few of the tandem suppliers.
    I sue Tandems East.  They advertise in the classified section of Velo
    news. 
    
    steve

    The Raleigh touring bikes (Randonneur etc.) come with 28/38/48 as
    standard. Mine is DX, Martine's is LX, and they both seem ideal,
    especially in the Alps. And especially with a 12/28 block on the
    back...
    
    Weakly,
    
    Piers

    Ditto last. My Claud Butler Touring has 30/40/50 up front too. It's the
    500EX. Not that I use the 30 of course...
    
    Chris
    
    P.S: Roddy, what's the difference between a *racing* triple and any other?

Damn, I was hoping no-one would ask that. I'll have to answer without letting
on that I'd rather die than be seen with an ATB chainset on a racing bike...

I think the answer is that a "racing triple" would come with slightly larger
rings than the 26-28 to 46-48 range generally found on an ATB chainset, and
it might be constructed a little bit more lightly. We're looking for elegance
here, not beefiness. 

Does that sound convincing?


Roddy

    Well according to the MAVIC handout the racers use 51/43/34 (probably
    on a 13 thru 19)

    I always thought that the difference between a racing and touring
    drive trains was the length of the rear derailleur.
    
    Racers like short derailleurs for faster shifts.  Tourist and MTBikers
    use a wide range of gears and pay the price by having a longer lag
    after shifting.
    
    Just a thought.
    
    Peter

    Well I've just fitted a triple to my training bike and the result is a 
    qualified thumbs up.
    
    I wouldn't have fitted it had I not been intending to take it into the
    Alps and the Pyranees in 3 weeks, since the double I has (42-52x13-22)
    was already more than adequate for anything I was likely to go up round
    here.  As soon as I get back home I'll remove the triple and go back to
    a double.
    
    My choice of chainset was dictated by the fact that I wanted to
    preserve my investment in chain-rings so I bought a Stronglight-80.
    This came fitted with 28-38-48 which should be adequate in the short
    term, although I am toying with the idea of putting on a 52 instead of
    the 48.
    
    The quality is OK but not great - I would not like to sprint hard on
    the top ring since it deforms rather too easily, and I am dubious about
    the bottom bracket.  However this is a cheap set (�50 or about $90) and
    the quality/price is OK and it will fit my purpose, I don't suppose
    that it will get more than 2000 miles this year...
    
    I got a MTB Shimano front changer (I don't know what precise type - I'm
    not a techno-weeny and the names change to frequently).  I took care to
    get one without too much bend in the outer blade and I have no trouble
    with grinding or clicking when all the way to the right.
    
    At the back I am currently running a cob or corn (13 through 19) with
    another MTB SIS changer.  The changes are precise (or will be when I
    finish the little adjustments which always take me 200 km but take a shop
    seconds).  However there is a definite lag compared with the 105 I
    normally run.  I feel that the long arm is a bit _too_ long arm for my
    requirements (by about 15 teeth), also given that I am nor likely to
    treat it to a diet of stones and sticks perhaps a bit too heavily
    engineered.  There would appear to be a hole in the market here (but
    thereagain I didn't spent 2 months rersearching the catelogues.
    
    With only 50 miles on the setup I am still not sure about the gears -
    it is suprising how used you get to certain ratios.  The 48x16 has
    replaced the 52x17 as my favoured flat-no-wind gear but for the rest I
    am still struggling to get comfortable.  Certainly the chain line 
    is rather more central than before.
    
    Having 48x13 is not too much of a burden (and will be none in the Alps)
    I reckon that it'll be good for 40mph which is OK so long as I'm not
    out with a racing bunch.  I'll be playing with the gearing in the Alps,
    I don't currently expect to stay with the current setup.  My current
    suspicion is 28,38,52 x 13,15-19,21 for the alps, replacing the 19,21
    with a 20,22 for the pyranees.
    
    My recommendation to someone doing the same (ie gearing up for the big
    hills) is to got for a Shimano-ring compatible setup (Stronglight do
    do one which look pretty nice), to take care with the choice of front
    and back changer, perhaps even to the level of spending some time
    studying the catalogues (yawn) and then sitting on your bike shop until
    they get what you need.
    
    I'll fill you in how it performs over the next 8 weeks.

No info from anyone on how their chosen equipment functioned in 1992....

This note stems from a Rod-request concerning "quality triples".

Classic 5-pin TA
----------------
This basically uses a small PCD fitting outside ring with the 2 other rings 
bolted to it with appropriate spacers.  You need either a Stronglight 49D or a 
TA crankset.
For:		Immense range of ring sizes, relatively inexpensive.
Against:	Getting a bit antiquated and difficult to find, rigidity 
		suspect, not very true even when new.

Stronglight 80/100
------------------
Reasonably priced chainset, which is a modification of the double version.  
Uses identical rings with a long bolt plus a spacer to fix the smallest ring.  
The triple bolts hold better than the doubles.
For:		Price, range of rings 28 - 54, availability
Against:	Finish, BB axle quality, rigidity

Stronglight 300
---------------
Next model up from the 80/100, uses Shimano PCD for the 2 outer rings, fixes 
the smallest independantly on the crank arms.
For:		Slightly better finish, rigidity, good range of rings
Against:	Quite a price increase for not much better quality.

Stronglight 1000
----------------
Sorry, no other info except that a triple is available and it's more expensive 
than the 300.

Campag Athena
-------------
Quality set from Campag, different PCD to Shimano (same as Chorus).  
Independant fixing for inner ring as in Stronglight 300.
For:		Quality, rigidity.
Against:	Rings available (non-Campag cheaper and better range), price,
		50/52 outer, 40 2nd, 28-32 inner.

Mavic
-----
A brilliant set, very solid, very well-made and corresponding disastrous to 
the cheque book!!  What I really have against it is that it wins top prize for 
ugliness.
For:		Quality, range of rings, rigidity
Against:	Price, ugliness

Bricolage 1 - Chorus or Shimano 105
-----------------------------------
Stronglight or TA make a transition inner with extended arms so that you can 
fit a 3rd ring using ring, spacers and double bolts from a Stronglight 80/100 
set.  For the Chorus, you need a slight modification with a hacksaw and a file
to take the shoulder off the inside of the crank arms, I suspect the same is 
true of the 105.  I bought the bits and did it myself, I even used the same 
axle as for the double but then I normally have it spaced out slightly so that I
can get inside ring/top-but-1 sprocket with no rubbing.
For:		Quality set, minimal additional expense, still usable as a
		double.
Against:	Sacrilege of taking the file to it!

Bricolage 2 - Campag Sport
--------------------------
This method fixes a 3rd ring in the same way as the Stronglight 300, and as 
such involves drilling the crank arms.  The 3rd ring, spacers and bolts need 
to come from a Stronglight 107 set which may be a bit hard to come by.  I left 
this to my friendly bikeshop because I was concerned about the concentricity 
of the bolt holes.
For:		Quality set, minimal additional expense, still usuable as a
		double.
Against:	Limited teeth on 2nd ring - 42 minimum.

SunTour or Shimano VTT sets
---------------------------
You must be joking!  Seriously though, they would work OK, but the ring 
selection is not wide.  28/38/48 or 26/36/46 predominating.

IMHO, Best buys:
===============

Touring bike, starting from scratch, I think I'd stick with the Stronglight 
100.  It's cheap but functional.  Transforming a Campag Chorus which is
available and unused is cheaper and better!

Sportif bike, starting from scratch, the Campag Athena would be my preference 
despite the limited rings available - I would favour 30/40/50 with 7-speed
14-24.  As above, transforming an old Campag Sport is a better option - I
would use 32/42/53 with a 7-block 15-26.

Since you ask - I went with a Stronglight 300lx, rashly fitted just before 
the Raid (but I got away with it). I decided that the standard 52-42-32
gearing was fine, but I wanted longer cranks than 170, and I was able to
get 175s in the 300lx. For all the doomy notes I've read about the dangers
of changing crank length, it's a surprisingly subtle change, but one I'm
pleased with. The longer cranks feel comfortable.

With a Suntour 9000 front changer, the front gear change is fine. There is
one problem in that when I lean hard on the pedals, the changer slips 
position slightly and starts rubbing on the chain. But I'm looking hard at
the whole transmission for '93, so I expect I'll sort this out one way or
another.


Rod

>...one problem in that when I lean hard on the pedals, the changer slips 
> position slightly and starts rubbing on the chain. But I'm looking hard at
    
    Don't quite see the connection, Rod. You mean you're *so* strong the frame
    bends? Or maybe you're hitting the shifter with your knee? ;-)
    
    Chris

Well...

>...one problem in that when I lean hard on the pedals, the changer slips 
> position slightly and starts rubbing on the chain. But I'm looking hard at

It was worrying me too, but then he is using one of these cheap Ti jobs....

On the other hand, Rod, I think it is more likely that you are getting flex in
the (cheap) outer chainring.  This is made worse by your own natural brute 
strength and of course the 175 mm cranks. I would also look to see if you have 
any movement in the BB axle.  There are 3 solutions -
1. resign yourself to buying an expensive set (C_mp_g or M_v_c)    
2. bend the changer a bit
3. don't try so hard (my favourite)

R

    My local shop told me that you have to do brutal things to the frame
    to install the Mavic triple. I forget the details. Can anyone fill
    them in for me ?
    
    ---Alan

Certainly, just give me their address and I will personally go there and fill
them in     ;>)

I think it depends on the cassette BB axle used, there is a lot of warbling about
chamfering the BB carcase for some of these things, maybe that's what it means.
I think the Vitus's are already done and that doesn't look too disasterous, if I
remember/get the time I'll ask Daniel in Fusberti's when I go to reclaim the
modified Campag Sport.

I still think that the Mavic wins the prize for all-out ugliness and I have seen
the Athena triple for sale at 800 FF without BB, which makes the Mavic un peu
cher as well. 

>...one problem in that when I lean hard on the pedals, the changer slips 
> position slightly and starts rubbing on the chain. 

Seriously, the front changer really does change position. The gear lever
moves back slightly. I am not making this up.


Rod

It's the nut holding the lever...


;>)

Oh, thanks!