Conference noted::bicycle

    	If, by "woman's bike", you mean a bike with no top tube but with a
    double down tube, or a tube(s) that runs from the headtube to the rear
    axle ('mixte' style), you will be sacrificing strength and adding
    weight to what you could be riding.
    	If you mean a bike that fits the typical female proportions (longer
    legs relative to arm+torso length), you are on the right track. The
    only 'tough' properly designed women's bike I know of is the Terry Mt.
    Marcy.  This is the Terry ATB. See other notes in this file about women
    and Terry bikes.
    	A suggestion on getting on and off a bike with a child seat:
    Use the 'ballet' mount, rather than the 'horse' mount.  The typical
    horse mount is when you hold onto the handlebars and swing your leg
    over the rear wheel and seat. This can result in contact between your
    foot and the occupant of a child seat!
    	In the 'ballet' mount, you stand next to the bike, holding it
    upright using only your right hand on the seat. (Your left hand is kept
    on your left side - important: don't try to hold the handlebars with
    your left hand!). Swing your right leg forward and over the 
    handlebars/front wheel while centering the bike under you with your 
    right hand. This should be a quick graceful movement, one that can 
    bring a nod of admiration from experienced riders.
	Male riders with the racer's style high seat, low handlebars, often
    find that it is easier to mount this way than the typical horse mount
    (you don't have to swing your leg up so high).
    	So, my recommendation - try a Mr. Marcy (it may be too $$) or other
    ATB with a short top tube, and use a ballet mount when you have a child
    seat fitted. - Chris

    If you're happy with the bike you have, why not just keep the bike and
    put the $250 into a trailer?  That would be a *lot* safer than a child
    seat on the back of the bike, and not affect handling as much.
    
    Larry

    I second .2
    
    The trailer also has residue value after your child grows out of it.
    
    steve

    
    Univega has a new model called the Activa-ES. It's a hybrid type bike
    so it's very versitle with 18 speeds that would make the extra 20lbs
    alot easier. If your on the short side and a 42cm is your size they
    have step through frame, but if thats too small the bike already has
    a low bottom bracket so the top tube is lower than most bikes. The cost
    is around $279 - $300 definitely worth checking out.
    
    Joe

    Activa ES is a great choice for what you need. Bridgestone CB-1 and CB-2
    are couple of other bikes in that price range. You can also look at the
    Activa ST also if the ES is too much $. But I would recommend the ES
    over the ST for the extra $50. 
    
    As for the buggy, they are super if you plan to ride in remote areas
    with very little traffic. But they are kind of dangerous since the
    carrier is wide (fits 2 kid side by side) and I do not recommend them
    if you ride in a congested area.   
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Dave

    re: .5  
    
    Carriers are only 4"-6" wider than ones handlebars.  They appear wider
    than they are.  I have found that with the high visibility, cars tend
    to pull father away.
    
    steve

>================================================================================
>Note 1543.6                    Bike for Baby & me                         6 of 6
>AKOV11::FULLER                                        7 lines  15-MAY-1990 14:25
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    than they are.  I have found that with the high visibility, cars tend
>    to pull father away.
>    
>    steve

      I guess if the pull Father away, that's a good reason to let Mum
      pull the trailer! One way to get out of the work.

      Tim

    A kid seat on the back of a bike is very unstable.  Makes the bike top
    heavy.  Go for the trailer.
    
    ed

>    A kid seat on the back of a bike is very unstable.  Makes the bike top
>    heavy.  Go for the trailer.
    


Not in my experience.

I have been carrying my son for quite a while on a rear mounted bike
seat. The key factor is to get a touring style bike that tends to 
go in a straight line. Clearly if you put a bike seat on a squirrely 
racing bike you will have problems. Top heavy has very liitle to do 
with it. I have no problems cornering or going in a predictable 
direction.

My feeling is that bike seats are taking an unfair rap in the mags
and in general.

JC

>Not in my experience.
>I have been carrying my son for quite a while on a rear mounted bike
>seat. The key factor is to get a touring style bike that tends to 
>go in a straight line.

I'll bet it also has to do with how tightly the seat is attached.

I know from loaded touring that if the load is allowed to sway, the
control gets a lot shakier.
........

With the trailer you'll have room for expansion.  There is a limit to
how big of a kid you can put in the seat.

-Jeff

A bike that is great for doing this kind of riding is a hybird style bike.
My wife has a Bianchi, a model called Advantage. This is a bike with 18 speeds
(thats a triple crank in the front for those tough hills) a touring style frame
not a heavy MT-Bike frame, but it does have MT-bike handle bars and shifters
and light weight but strong 700c wheels. TREK also has a model the TREK 720 and
the 750, that are on the same idea. Be sure to take a look at these bikes they 
are a lot of fun to ride and are equipped with components that are a must for 
pulling a child whether it be in a trailer or in a child seat. Things such as 
low gearing(granny gear or triple crank in front) and cantilever brakes are a
must.

Tom

PS There are notes in this conf, that deal with pros and cons on trailers as
well as what makes to look at. Lets discuss the trailer issue there.

PPS I love my Burley-lite Trailer!;-)

    	How many people have considered waiting a few years
    and buying a tandem with a pedal extension kit?  I tried
    a rear mounted bike seat once and was to frightened to
    ever use it again after the stability problems I had just 
    getting the bike started.  It bothers me to think that if 
    I had this kind of difficulty and I use a bike almost daily, 
    what would someone who just rides occasionally be like on one 
    of these set-ups.  If your a recreational bike rider and want
    to take the kids with you then the trailer appears to be the
    only sound method until they get big enough to reach the pedals
    on a tandem.  My daughter just turned five and the way she is
    growing (off the charts for height) we'll be on a tandem by
    this time next year.  But whatever your choice, I think a
    bicycling is a great *family* affair.
    
    						_Jerry

FYI - TREK's are on sale this week end. (May 17-20) At most TREK dealers.

    Thanks for all the responses so far.  From some of the responses, 
    I'm beginning to get leary of putting my son on the back of my bike, 
    even though I've seen so many *women* doing it.
    
    I live in Marlboro, MA.  It's pretty congested around here so I'm also
    wondering about toting a trailer. (... even though only 4-6"
    difference).  I'm not sure my children are at a good age to be in a
    trailer.  My daughter's 2 and my son is 8 mos. I think she would
    constantly be wanting "to chat" with me and also be all over my son!!
    I guess I feel that keeping each of them on the back of our bikes,
    would work out better.
    
    I've heard that the balance/load situation is easier on a city/mountain
    bike than on a racing/touring bike.  That's why I figured I would buy a
    new bike (not to mention I'd rather have upright/straight bars and
    wider wheels.
    
    Where can I find some of the bikes you all suggested around the
    Marlboro MA area.  I've tried Steve's MA Transit but they have the
    bikes in stock in the $$$ price range, although Steve said he'd get
    me a bike that I may see somewhere else!!  I just need to try them
    out.
    
    Thanks for more of your tips!!
    
    L.

�    Where can I find some of the bikes you all suggested around the
�    Marlboro MA area.  I've tried Steve's MA Transit but they have the
�    bikes in stock in the $$$ price range, although Steve said he'd get
�    me a bike that I may see somewhere else!!  I just need to try them
�    out.
 

	Bicycle Alley in Worcester is worth looking into. They have both TREK
and Bianchi bikes. TREK's are on SALE this weekend there. You can call them at
752-2230 for directions. There is another store across from them called
O'Neils you can stop in there for more brands. Franks Spoke'N Wheel in
Framingham on Rt9 is another great shop, though not pleasing to the eye they do
have good service. Phone # 872-8590.

	I am partial towards Bicycle Alley. BA has been voted one of the top 
100 Bike dealers in the nation by Bicycle Dealers Showcase. BDS is a magazine
for bike dealers and such.

Tom

As mentioned by me in an earlier reply, I have been carrying my son
on the back of my touring bike for a while. This is the third season 
in fact.

The biggest issue is stability. While I can't argue that a trailer 
is more stable, I have to assume that most recrreational riders 
aren't up to the $350 plus price tag. Yes, that's what they cost this 
year.

I went through a long soul search two years ago over this issue. I 
cam within inches of buying a mountain bike for the sole reason of 
the superior stability they have. I bought a *real* loaded touring 
bike instead because I knew that I would be doing some longer 
distances. There is a big difference here. A racing/sport bike has 
much less forgiving geometries.

Another key issue here is how the seat is mounted. Lower is 
definitely better. So if you can mount the seat on a good mountain 
bike in a low position your set up should be very stable.

BTW, if you decide on a mountain bike Whitco's in Spencer has the 
best prices around. I saved almost 25% by driving out there. They 
will quote prices over the phone. They carry a lot of good brands. 
Places like Bicycle Alley and others are more high end than it 
sounds like you need. I think that you could find something very 
good for a good price out there. It probably would pay to look 
around a while locally before going though.

JC

    
    re: -1
    
    I disagree about the stability of a mountain bike. Example....
    try sitting (hands off bars) and eating/drinking on a 
    street/racing/touring bike  and then on a mountain bike.
    I think that a shorter wheelbase and more upwrite position tends
    to make a mountain bike squirrelly (which is good for it's purpose). 
    The stability of a mountain bike is directly proportional 
    to the ability off it's cyclist.  
    

Take a look at some specs....


If my memory serves me, typical racing/sport bikes have a very
short wheelbase 39" or less. 

Granted there are a few mountain bikes in that range, but the majority
are in the 42" to 43" range. At least they were when I was looking
at them. This is the type of wheelbase we are talking about for loaded
touring bikes as well. The other issue is the geometries. The racing 
bikes end up with steep angles which make for a less stable ride

I simply can't imagine how a racing bike could be considered more
stable than a mountain bike. One qualifier I would put on this 
is that the angles should be fairly relaxed on the mountain bike.

The last advantage the mountain bike has is the fact that the 
handlebar configuration gives the rider more control over the 
steering under normal riding position. The hands are at the ends
of the bar while the the drop bar users may have their hands 
much closer to the stem while on the tops. But we are splitting
hairs at this point.

I guess I respectively disagree with caveats,

JC

    To get technical about it:
    
    The most stable bike is one with a combination of a low bottom bracket
    (10 1/4 to 10 1/2) and a longer wheelbase.  Usually a 72% head angle
    with appropriate (2 1/8) fork rake.  Mountain bikes may feel unstable
    to some because of their high bottom bracket.
    
    Steve
    (Who still believes in the trailer)

    Am I going to be able to put my 20lb, roly-poly 8 month old in a
    trailer now??  How do they stay/sit up in it??  harnesses with both
    shoulder and lap belts??   I recently read that a child must be at
    least 9 months before riding in a child bike seat.
    
    My daughter is 2 yrs 4 mos and 29 lbs.  I figured my husband would
    still be able to handle her on a bike seat. 
    
    I'm still considering the trailer, but I don't want to spend the $$ if
    the duo are not at the appropriate/realistic ages.
    
    Didn't I see a note about Nashbar having a trailer that was under $200?
    Comments?  
    
    I think I go bike/trailer shopping this weekend!
    
    Laurel

    re .-1
    
    She'd probably do as well (or better) in the trailer as in a bike seat,
    although she may be too young for either, now.  Trailers needn't cost
    $350, either.  In this area, one of the shops is selling Burleys for
    $250.  One of the biking families in our club uses a trailer and loves
    it; there's a waiting list of people who want to buy the thing when
    they get tired of it.  They put a few toys and snacks back there with
    the child, Mom can ride beside and talk to the child while Dad pulls,
    and it seems to work out real well.  They also report cars giving them
    a considerably wider berth, and a lot of friendly waves.
    	It could be that, properly restrained and padded, a child could ride
    in a trailer lying down, then seated when (s)he gets older....
    

>>    Am I going to be able to put my 20lb, roly-poly 8 month old in a
>>    trailer now??  How do they stay/sit up in it??  harnesses with both
>>    shoulder and lap belts??   I recently read that a child must be at
>>    least 9 months before riding in a child bike seat.


In PERFORMANCE mail order catalog there is a Equinox trailer for sale. Looks
just like a Burley but not as well made IMHO. BUT, they sell an option that is
for infants called an infant sling. I ordered one for my 6 month old. It looks
like it will work on my Burley. It has the appearence of a snugler that you see
people wear in front of them to hold their child. I haven't tried it out yet,
so I don't know how it will work. I know if it looks the least bit unsafe or
uncomfortable I'll send it back and have auntie watch the baby and just take my
two year old Ashleigh, who love to ride in, what she calls, "Ashie's bike" as
she point to her Burley-Lite trailer.

Tom

I also am swaying towards the trailer due to lotsof factors. I 
presently hauling my 35 kid around in the bike seat with no 
difficulty. But, it is most definitly the last year for that. The 
seats are really only good up to about this weight.

I took a real good look at the Burley. It was the top of the line 
fold down model with alloy quick release wheels. This is a *nice* 
product. Nice price tag too at $350 (whew!). But, as it has been said 
in previous notes, it will sell very easily if I don't like it.

The stores I went to have been selling a lot of these units. They 
have all sold three or for this month. 

The previous reply that mentioned the Baby Sling from Equinox is 
interesting. Last night my wife and I were talking about how to make 
it compatible with the Burley. I would be very interested in hearing 
how that goes.

Right now I am trying to figure out how to get a test drive of one 
of these things. Are there any places around here that rent these. I 
know that there is a place in Waterville Valley NH that does. Maybe 
Lincoln Guide Service?

Getting close to Buying at this point,

JC

    We began pulling Stephanie around at 3 months.  We use an Equinox
    trailer with an infant car seat strapped in.  It took some monkeying
    around, but worked well for the first 7 months or so.  She now sits up
    in their nylon seat arrangement with pillows on either side to sleep
    on.
    
    Burley and equinox trailers are generally "high end" trailers but the
    price varies widely due to options.  If you get a stripped down model,
    it probably would be in the high 200 range.  I have referred a few
    people to O'neil's in Worcester, Jimmy O'neil has ordered a few
    Equinox's at a good discount for people as he firmly believes in them.
    
    steve

Some of the "options" you give up for price on the Burley
are the fold opition (new for 1990), quick release wheels,
Alloy wheels, the various covers etc.

JC

                                         |\
                                         |_\
�The previous reply that mentioned the Baby Sling from Equinox is 
�interesting. Last night my wife and I were talking about how to make 
�it compatible with the Burley. I would be very interested in hearing 
�how that goes.                          |
                                         |
I put the sling on the Burley. If you have just one child the sling mounts the
same as shown on the instructions. Whith two children I had to mount the strap
of the sling in middle of the trailer seat. This was done quickly with a small
slit in the trailer seat.                |
                                         |
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regarding .24

>    We began pulling Stephanie around at 3 months.  We use an Equinox
>    trailer with an infant car seat strapped in.  It took some monkeying
>    around, but worked well for the first 7 months or so.  She now sits up
>    in their nylon seat arrangement with pillows on either side to sleep
>    on.
    


         How did you handle the helmet? My daughter is almost 7
         months now. The styrofoam helmet just swims on her head.
         I worry about it slipping over her eyes.


         regarding the last reply:

         I'm not suprised that the sling worked. This is a definite
         plus. $14.95 isn't much to spend.

         JC

    When she was real young we didn't put a helmet on her.  She was
    protected by the century car seat and the frame of the trailer.
    We also only rode on wide roads.  We tried the helmet, but it slid
    down like it did for you.  
    
    We use a lil-bell now.
    
    shamefully...
    steve

 After reading all these notes discussing pro's and cons of rear child seats
 and trailers my impression is, its a matter of preference!. We have two little
 ones who have been riding in child seats since they were 8 months old and only
 now are we having problems toting the oldest who is 5yrs old. Our bikes are
 Mountain bikes and we have found them to be very stable as long as the kids
 are well secured with shoulder and waist straps. We've ridden both on and off
 road and have had no mishaps. However our 5 year old is getting a little too
 big for the child seat but too young to ride her own bike along with us. Thus
 an option we've been considering is a tandem bike towing a trailer. We met a
 family in Bar Harbor last summer who had a Cannondale Tandam and they towed 
 their 5 year old in a trailer from Georgia to Bar Harbor stopping at hostels
 along the way. These folks also carried all their gear. I asked them how the
 load was especially on the uphills and they both said not bad since their
 Cannondale had 21 speeds and they shared the load on the uphills. Also on the
 straightaways one of them could power the bike easily while the other rested.
 
 Any one else have any ideas or suggestions on this Tandam/Trailer combination?

 Neil....

<<< Note 1543.29 by DSTEG2::SHEEHAN "Neil Sheehan DSTEG  NIO/B18 Dtn.285-2567" >>>
                      -< Tandam and Trailer for todlers >-


> Any one else have any ideas or suggestions on this Tandam/Trailer combination?


         I have often wondered how this would work. If you happen to
         be in Waterville Valley NH, they will rent you a mountain
         tandem and a Burley trailer and try it for yourself.

         Also check out note 1431.*

         JC