Conference noted::bicycle

      No comparison.  Although a Cannondale is a good bike Klein is
    better.  The frames are hand built and the painting is meticulous.
    All Klein frames come with a million mile guarantee.  Also Klein
    frames are not 100% aluminum, they contain some magnesium.   
      The materials, geometry and components are all different.  
      After trying many bikes including the likes of the Fischer CR7,
    Cannondale 3.0, Fat Chance, Merlin titanium, Specialized Stumpjumper
    Team and Kestrel I decided on the Klein Top Gun.  I felt this bike
    was the best.  
    							Norm
      

    re. -1
    
>      After trying many bikes including the likes of the Fischer CR7,
>    Cannondale 3.0, Fat Chance, Merlin titanium, Specialized Stumpjumper
>    Team and Kestrel I decided on the Klein Top Gun.  I felt this bike
>    was the best.  
       
    	Just out of curiosity, if you had to rate these bikes from
    1 to 7 with 1 as first choice (Klein) what would the ratings look
    like?
    
    					Jerry

    1. Klein Top Gun
    2. Fischer CR7
    3. Merlin Titanium
    4. Fat Chance
    5. Specialized Stumpjumper Comp (carbon fiber)
    6. Kestrel
    7. Specialized Stumpjumper Team (steel)
    8. Cannondale 3.0
    				
    						Norm

    RE. -1
    
>    1. Klein Top Gun
>    2. Fischer CR7
>    3. Merlin Titanium
>    4. Fat Chance
>    5. Specialized Stumpjumper Comp (carbon fiber)
>    6. Kestrel
>    7. Specialized Stumpjumper Team (steel)
>    8. Cannondale 3.0
    
    	Norm, even though you've given your honest assessment you have
    not been kind to Cannondale.  If you really rate the Top Gun
    as first, looking at the frame geometry and the similar type of materials
    used in the C-Dale , there's no way all these other machines could be rated
    higher.  Can we get a second (third, etc.) opinion on this from 
    other folks out there that have ridden a lot of them.  Thanks.
    
    						Jerry
    				

      I will say it one more time.  The Klein and the Cannondale are
    two very different bikes.  First the geometries are different, 
    This will make a big difference in how a frame handles.  Second,
    the materials are different.  This will affect shock absorbtion
    and resistance to fatigue (among other things).  Third, Cannondale
    tubing is fatter around and thinner walled, affecting stiffness,
    shock absorbtion (among other things).  Also the Klein has square
    to round chain stays while the Cannondale has round ones. The Klein
    has round seat stays while the Cannondale has ovalized stays.
      To me this adds up to two very different frames.  We could also
    talk about components.  To hold down the cost of building a complete
    bike many manufacturers "skimp" on components.  The Klein uses Sun
    Metal Chinook rims while the C-dale although using Sun Metal rims
    they are not Chinooks (heavier and not quite as strong).  The Klein
    comes with an American Classic seat post the C-dale has a (suntour?).
    The Klein has a Scott self energizing brake in the rear and Ground
    Control S tires, the C-dale does not.  Also the Klein has a handmade
    one piece stem and bar hand painted to match the frame.  Klein's
    painting is known throughout the industry as one of the best.
      Something else I like about Klein.  They are small enough that
    I can talk directly to the factory and change components or get
    a custom paint job or "get the bike fixed by Klein".  Try that with
    Cannondale.  To me the bike has to ride well and survive under the
    worst conditions.  If I do have a problem I don't like walking into
    a bike shop and having them say "I'll see what I can do for you".
      And here's the clincher, every Klein bicycle comes with a Klein
    waterbottle.  How could anyone live without it?
    
    						Norm

    I just reread my list and found an error.  The Specialized carbon
    fiber is the Epic not the Comp.  The Comp is a steel bike which
    I did not ride.  
      I would also like to say that although the Cannondale would not
    be my first choice in a mountain bike I would still buy it over
    alot of the so called mountain bikes on the market.
    
    						Norm

    re. -1, -2
    Norm,
    	
    	You are obviously well versed on the virtues of C-Dale's and
    Kline's.  I am now of the opinion that "all that glitters is not
    necessarily gold", which is where my head was at when I entered
    this note after seeing both frames (Not Complete Bikes) side
    by side in the dealers shop.  If the sales people knew as much
    as you about the differences, I might have been walking around
    with a Klein today, but I'm still happy with my choice since
    your last comment about C-Dale being a lot betterh than what is
    commonly offered in its range is probably more in line with my 
    pocketbook these days.  Thanks for the input.
    
    						Jerry

    Also, remember that _all_ of these bikes are good-to-excellent bikes.
    
    Just for fun, I rode a Kestrel on Saturday.  ZOUNDS!  It handled
    almost as well as my TREK road bike, and better than any other
    mountain bike I'd ever ridden (might just be the tires... :-)  ).
    
    And for only $1700, too.  Cheap !!
             
    What would I give to live & work in an area that I wouldn't have
    to worry about someone ripping off such a bike?  :-(
    
    	-Bill 

    If you like a Kestrel try a Trimble

	RE: .9

	> If you like a Kestrel try a Trimble

	When did Trimble start making a mountain bike?

    Do not know exactly.  They have been available at a local mountain
    bike store here since April--at least four months.  It is a really
    wild looking frame.  I haven't seen any off the road yet.

How about a Klein Quantum vs. C'Dale 2.8 R900?
(Besides the fact that the C'Dale has STI)

    I ride a 1991 Klein Quantum spec'ed with 600.  I rode a 1991 C-Dale
    SR900 similarly equipped and was amazed at the difference in the ride. 
    The C-Dale I rode had their aluminum front forks, while my Quantum has
    cro-moly forks.  For me, the Quantum feels much more comfortable. I
    never got the C-Dale up to speed, but even at 50+ mph the Quantum feels
    very stable and sure.

    I'd be the first to say, however, that my test ride on the C-Dale was
    much too short to thoroughly understand it's ride qualities.  I ended up
    making my decision based on the Klein giving me a more comfortable test
    ride, and that I already owned a Klein mountain bike (1991 Attitude) and
    was (and still am) *extremely* pleased with it.

    I am currently cosidering the purchase of a new Klein Rascal (AKA Top Gun)
    with Shimano Deore XT components -- hyperglide cassete and rapidfire +
    shifters -- Rock Shox Mag 20's, SPD pedals and a Flite saddle for
    $1825.00 plus tax. My questions/concerns are the following:
    
    While this price is below retail is it a "good deal" ?
    
    While I have already reached my threashold of pain $$$ wise do I flip
    the extra $400.00 and upgrade to XTR Grouppo to have the latest and
    greatest ?
    
    Kevin

    add to note 1262.14
    
    Are there any bikes, other than Klein, in the $1800.00 price range that
    I that should be giving serious consideration ? 
    
    Kevin
    

    re: .15 
    
    This is a difficult question.  Are you having a problem test riding
    bikes in that price range? :>
    
    Get the "Bicycling" Buyers Guide issue and look at the $1500 - $1800
    price range.  There are 10 to 15 bikes listed.  
    
    Yes, there are other very nice bikes for < $1800.
    
    Good luck, it takes most of the luck out of it when you are willing to
    spend so much.
    
    Peter
     

    While waiting for my C'Dale R900 replacement frame (after having
    trashed the first one in Guiness Book of World Records time), I looked
    at a 1991 Klein Quantum frame, as a "backup".  Now, having received my
    new R900, and having all the "stuff" refitted from the one new frame to
    the new new frame... I am having a problem.
    
    Originally, I had Profile Air Wave bars substituted for the standard
    Cinelli, since I had good luck with the Aero III's that were attached
    to my last year's "ripped off" Schwinn (Klein) 754.  The only thing I
    didn't like was the width of the mid section.  (The Air Wave bars have
    a narrow aero bar section).  However, we had to retrofit the stem,
    because the standard stem created too long a stretch to be comfortable.
    
    With the arrival of the new frame, I substituted the bars that come
    with the C'Dale R700 (Cinelli Steer Horn with Scott Clip-On's), so that
    I would have further flexibility in the aero bar adjustment.  Herein
    lies the rub:
    
    I am still too far forward to be comfortable... and the dealer says
    that Cinelli does not make a stem with a rise.  I have already turned
    the seat post around 180 degrees, and am still reaching for the bars.
    
    Any suggestions as to a stem that will fit the Cinelli Steer Horns,
    providing about an inch or so lift.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Irv