Conference noted::bicycle

    This is a little out of your way, but I highly recommend Gamache's
    in Fitchburg. Talk to George Gamache and explain what you need.
    He'll take the time to explain what's available and the advantages
    and disadvantages.  He's extremely trustworthy and knowledgeable.
    
    As for the salesperson asking how much to spend, they often do that
    to isolate what price ranges you'll be interested in.  I wouldn't hold
    that against them.  Why should they go through the trouble of showing
    you a $1500 bike when you only plan on spending $300?  This saves
    both the sales staff and you time and trouble.      
    
    Regards,
    Denis

>    As for the salesperson asking how much to spend, they often do that
>    to isolate what price ranges you'll be interested in.  I wouldn't hold
>    that against them.  Why should they go through the trouble of showing
>    you a $1500 bike when you only plan on spending $300?  This saves
>    both the sales staff and you time and trouble.      
    
Yep, it's a valid question. When you go to a car dealer, you usually 
don't say "show me all your Fords" - usually you have a price range, or 
maybe a couple specific models you're interested in / think you can 
afford. Some salesfolk can come across as moneyhungry, or just plain 
boorish, but that's the same with salesfolk in any line of work.

I disagree with the previous rep. though, that it's a waste of time to 
show a 1500$ bike to people on a 300$ budget. When I was a salesfolk, 
I'd take as much time and show ANYTHING to ANYBODY even if I didn't 
think there was a snowball's chance on a sunspot they'd ever buy it. 
It's fun showing things to people and letting them look and explaining 
things - maybe someday they'll get really into it and come back and buy 
the better bike. Any salesfolk that consider customers as "trouble" (in 
general; some really are!) is in the wrong line of work. If the 
salesfolk take care of the customers, the cash register will take care 
of itself. Incidentally, it's nice that something like that happens in 
these NOTES - lot of people willing to take the time to answer questions 
and help out folks that they may never even see.....
                                                    ken

     I'll vote for George Gamache too. Done alot of business with him,
    learned from him, ride with him.... He'll do you right and once
    the palm is crossed with silver he'll still remember you.
    
    Chip

    	I'll second the opinion that "How much do you want to spend?"
    is a proper initial question.  But make sure that the next questions
    are about how much riding do you do, of what type, and what are
    your hopes for the future.  A bike salesman will steer you to very
    different bikes if he hears that you want to put along bike trails
    with the kids, vs. 40 to 100 mile day trips, vs. cross country camping,
    etc.  Tom and the gang at Chelmsford are basicly good people - don't
    feel like you have to avoid them.  - Chris

    I'm not a big fan of the "How much do you want to spend?" approach for
    most consumer goods.  For a car or a house, sure, but for bikes and
    other small purchases it's fairly artificial.  The inertia's certainly
    there: shoppers are often driven by market expectations (a PC should
    cost $2500, a microwave should cost $300, running shoes should cost
    $60) than their interests.  They really could spend anywhere from $50
    to $3000+ on their hobby if they felt like it (know anybody who owns a
    boat?), but somebody told them that bikes cost $500 -- so that's what
    they expect.  The salesperson reads this expectation by asking the $
    question before getting down to the customer's needs.  
    
    It's kind of absurd.  How can anyone who knows nothing about bikes be
    expected to tell the salesman what the ideal one for his interests will
    cost?  Yet that's what happens all the time. When somebody comes in and
    takes the "correct" approach to buying a bike (finding out what they
    need, and paying what it costs to get that), most sales people don't
    know what to do.  To succeed, you end up having to search for an
    enlightened salesman, or becoming so expert about bikes that you
    don't need one.
    
    
    MATT

Reg. -.1

I have to agree with the approach of finding what you need then
talk price. If the salesperson can't deal with it, then he may not 
be the appropriate person to ask the questions. I often walk into 
a store already knowing what I want. My standard answer to the 
"how much do you wnat to spend?" question is "you tell me". A 
good salesperson will launch into the probing questions, a lousy 
one will make you feel like you are wasting time, dumb etc. The 
lousy sales people *never* get my business. If they don't have 
any interest in my needs then I have no interest in them. This 
rule applies to sales for a $1.00 part in a bike shop to a 
$150,000 house. 

But it occurs to me that the poor person who wrote the base note 
is not getting much helpful info about where to go. Unfortunatley 
my sources are in central Mass. Probably too far to drive.

JC

    A novice is always at risk, no matter what the situation. I just bought
    a bike 3 weeks ago- hadn't ridden one since pre-driver's license days.
    The best thing that a novice can do is to arm him/herself with some 
    knowledge. Get yourself a bicycle buyer's guide, and read it. You'll
    pick up some good stuff in it- like what kind of bike would best suit
    you, how to pick out a bike that's the right size, and what features
    to look for.
    
    Secondly, visit a bunch of bike shops in the area, and see what they
    have to offer. Talk to the salespeople, get their opinions, and ride
    the product that they carry. If you visit a bunch of places, you are
    bound to find a store that you fel comfortable with that can sell
    you a bike that you will enjoy.
    
    Also, the Cyclery isn't a bad place. The first time I went in there
    I was a little put off by their "stuffy" attitude, but on subsequent
    visits they have been very helpful and friendly.
    
    I'd try the following shops- Goodales and SunShine Sports in Nashua,
    Buchika's in Salem NH, and the Cycle Loft in Burlington.
    
    
    Have fun & asks lots of questions.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Ed

    Re: .7:  "Get yourself a bicycle buyer's guide":
    
    Could someone suggest some titles and sources?
    

    I saw a publication in Sunshine Sports with a similar title.  Maybe
    consumer reports would cover touring bikes.  Worth a trip to the
    library.  
    
    -ken

>    I saw a publication in Sunshine Sports with a similar title.  Maybe
>    consumer reports would cover touring bikes....
>    -ken

    There is a magazine called "Bicycle Guide".  It seemed like a less
    haughty version of "Bicycling".  (My impression after buying 1 or 2)

    I think that most bike magazines have a buyers guide that
    comes out once a year.

    A while back in rec.bicycles there was some complaining about
    Consumer Reports rating of bicycles.  It seems that the rating
    was done some non-bikers and they rated things like "Ease of Pedaling"
    or "Braking Distance" without any discussion of gearing setup,
    maintainence, or what kind of riding you plan.  It was sort of
    a "bikes is bikes" approach.  (I didn't see the article, I just
    heard the complaints.)

    -Jeff Bell

Try tp find a person who subscribes to Bicycling. In the 6 or 8 
months there have been several articles with advice on how to buy 
a buke. The Buyers Guide issue was March I think. I think some 
of the articles were well written and would be very helpful to 
you.

JC

    I wrote .0
    
    As my spouse and I want to do some riding in State Parks as well as
    around the neighborhood I'm thinking about ATB's.
    
    At this point I'm considering a Univega ES or a Mongoose Hilltopper.
    Both are about $350.  They are identically equipped with Shimano Exage,
    Biopace, etc.
    
    From what I can understand about 'fit' and 'sizing' my inseam in 30"
    and I'm 5'11" so it's either an 18 or 19" bike.
    
    I'll probably buy the Mongoose at the Cycle Loft in Winchester or the
    Univega at Ray & Sons in Maynard.
    
    Am I seriously in error in any of the preceeding?
    What about Specialized Hardrock Comp. or Diamond Back?
    Or a General?
    
    Any help/opinions appreciated.
    

  >>>  Any help/opinions appreciated.
    
Well, you asked....

If your still not sure of a dealer in the area, don't miss seeing Lincoln Guide
Service in Lincoln, MA.  Their bikes are reasonably priced, you can RENT many 
ATB's to get an idea of how they ride, and their service appears to be top 
notch.  (Only accessories seem too expensive there - go to REI for those (!))
LGS carries Trek, Pansonic, and a couple of other brands - plus their mechanic
is a real ATBer, and clearly knows his stuff.  

I bought a Panasonic MC4500 ATB from LGS, and am quite satisfied with their
attitude and knowledge.  They don't just slap the bike together out of the box,
but true the wheels, and check/grease the bearings on every bike.  They were 
genuinely concerned that everything was perfect when I got the bike, and 
didn't let the store hours or money dictate how "ready" my bike was when I 
picked it up.

Goodales in Nashua wanted an extra $50 over LIST for my bike, and didn't treat
me quite as well as LGS.  (I figured I'd give the Duke his $20 in taxes, and
pocket the $30.)

Since I was new to ATB's, I appreciated their explaining maintenance procedures,
and their never-in-a-hurry attitude.  They would talk to you all night.  Also,
Bicycling magazine had a yearly ATB issues, where they listed price/features.  I
found so many ATB's that rode alike, that I ended up basically tossing a coin.
It is a tough decision, but for around $380-400, there is a lot of nice stuff.
I could probably dig up the magazine.

Steve

re:-2..
    I have never seen the univega or the mongoose bicycles, but....
    You're pretty much going to get about the same bike for the buck.
    I like the Diamond Backs (Topanga, Ascent) and the Specialized bikes
    over the Treks and Panasonics, but there isn't much difference in
    the $300-$350 range. Now, if you were in the $500 range....
    You might consider looking for a used bike in the newspaper. I know
    that you may want a new bike, but some really excellent values can
    by had in the want ads ( Like a $600 bike for $300-$400....nice
    frame and top of the line components). 
    If I were buying a bike in the $300 range, I'd look for:
    1) frame size/fit. For a 30" inseam, you'll need about an 18" frame.
       frame guarantee. How is the frame put together...look at the
       different welds. 
    2) Wheels.  Wheels are expensive to upgrade. Wheels are an easy
       place to lose/gain weight on a bicycle. If you can,  get a bike
       with Araya RM20s, or Ritchey Vantage , or Specialized GX26 Rims,
       and with Deore or Mountain LX Hubsets. Other components on the
       bike are cheaper to upgrade. Wheels can be expensive..$150 to
       $200 for a good set of mountain wheels.. 
       In short, get the best wheelset possible.
     3)Components. Shifters, Deraillers, Headsets, etc, wear out and die. 
       Shimano Light Action, Shimano Exage, Shimano mountain LX can
       be upgraded to Deore and Deore XT. Suntour components would have
       to be upgraded to their line. Dont buy a new bike with Suntour
       components if you ever plan up upgrading to Deore, or vice versa
       with Suntour's line of components. Look at the saddle, the grips.
       What type of tires come on the bike? Brakes? Look and compare
    
     Look, ride, and Look some more.
    
    

    Update - My spouse bought a Mongoose Hilltopper at the Chelmsford
    Cyclery last week [$319] and is very pleased.  I have yet to purchase a bike
    as I keep "investigating" this thing to death!
    
    MASS. BUYING POWER - Avaliable to DIGITAL employees in Mass. [
    617-782-7131 ].  They pointed me to Whitco Sales in Spencer Ma.
    The discount is 10% over wholesale. [ I just found out about this
    yeaterday - after my wife bought her bike ]
    
    Example: For Mongoose
    
    Model	Retail List	Mass Buying Power Price
    Sycamore	$399		$350
    Alta	 ?		 315
    IBOC-Comp	$500+		 425
    Hilltopper	 319		 275
    
    In talking to Mass. Buying Power I only asked for Mongoose and Univega
    dealers.  Yet Whitco doesn't carry Univega.
    

    
        I hope you know how to assemble and tune the bike.  What may
    appear as a bargain, spending a few more dollars up front will assure
        many years of happy riding.
        
        In addition, a good shop will work with the customer to make
        necessary changes in gearing, saddles, install needed accesories,
        etc.
    
        steve
      

    	I second the recommendation for Lincoln Guide Service. I just
    bought a TREK 1100 road bike and have been treated very well. They
    do a 100 mile check for free. 
    
    If you do go, ask for Mike Farny (the owner) as he is very,very
    knowledgable about all sorts of things.
    
    Good luck,
    -tom

    I've finally made the decision and actually bought the bike - An Alta
    by Mongoose.  I got it this afternoon at Whitco in Spencer, Ma. through
    the Mass. Buying Power program.  It was $315.
    Yes it was assembled and tuned. I test drove it and when I said to Bob
    White, the owner, this is it, he reroad-tested it again and it's fine.
    I also got 20% off on a Bell Helmet.
    This dealer gives a 12 month parts and labor guarantee - tunups during
    this time peiod are free - just call a day ahead. [ Oh, and he threw in
    an insulated bottle when I bought the hanger ]
    
    This store has a number of brands and he sells them through Mass.
    Buying Power at 10% over wholesale.  Currently he carries Diamond Back,
    Fuji, GT, Royce Union, Mongoos, etc.
    
    

    Do you happen to have Whitco's address, phone number?
    
    Also some directions?  Spencer is on Rt 9 ?
    
    Thanks Maury
    

>
>    Do you happen to have Whitco's address, phone number?
>    
>    Also some directions?  Spencer is on Rt 9 ?
>    
>    Thanks Maury


You have everything you need to know. Just take rt 9 into 
Spencer. If you are coming from Worcester Whitco's will be on the 
left at the bottom of the hill. 

Great prices,

JC	    

>    This store has a number of brands and he sells them through Mass.
>    Buying Power at 10% over wholesale.  Currently he carries Diamond Back,
>    Fuji, GT, Royce Union, Mongoos, etc.
 
    
    	Are there any *pro* bike dealers?
    						Jerry   
    

    I found out about Whitco because when I called Mass. Buying Power I
    asked for a Mongoose and Univega dealer.  I suppose if you asked Mass.
    Buying Power for a *pro* bike dealer you'd ask for the professional
    brand - whatever that is, I don't know as I'm a novice - TREK?
    Cannondale? and they then would direct you to a dealer that carries
    that brand, if they have one signed up.