Conference noted::bicycle

When I complained of knee pain early in the season (mine was behind kneecap),
my racing buddies said I'd clearly been overtraining.  I'd been pushing
big gears too early in the season.  They told me not to use the big
chain ring (except going downhill) until after first 1000 miles.

So I worked more on spinning and aerobic conditioning in early season,
and haven't been bothered since.

Hope this helps,
-DB

    I used to get this occasionally last year. Using higher gears and
    spinning faster helps a lot. I also had the Fit Kit done at Franks
    Spoke N' Wheel in Framingham. It cost $20 and I have not experienced
    any pain since then. 
    
    
    	Paul

    	Take this seriously.  

        	Two years ago I started pushing big gears after less than 500
    miles that season.  I got tendinitis in my knees.  
    
	1.  I started spinning using only the small chainring.
   	2.  I got fit kitted.
    	3.  I went to sports medicine orthopedist and podiatrist who
    	reccomended orthotics (Possibly unique to me)
    	4.  I did my early season training this year using a fixed rear
    	wheel.
    
    	With all of this it took over a year for my knees to feel
    just right again.    

    	My knees may be more sensitive or I may have done more damage
    to them than you have to yours.  Even though they may not hurt
    much now don't wait.

    	I'd suggest immediately limiting yourself to the small chaingring
    and getting fit kitted *now*.
    
    -Nick

    Re:1192.0
    
    This sounds like a fitting problem with the cleated pedals more
    than anything else.  In my case, I felt overuse problems on the
    top of the kneecap.  Your feet may not be at a comfortable angle
    in the cleats.  I'd spend some time on adjusting the cleats.
    
    Patrick

    My 17yr son will be getting cleated pedals this summer.  I *don't* want
    him to hurt his knees since he is useing the bike to stay in shape for
    ski racing.  He will probably get the system at Lincoln Guide in
    Lincoln, Mass.  Can anyone think of any reason to stay away from
    Lincoln Guide?  The other shops that he might try would be Carrs in
    Concord, Mass or Pedal Power in Acton.  DO they fit you correctly?? 
    
    An experience with these shops?   \VA

<    Lincoln, Mass.  Can anyone think of any reason to stay away from

Yes, you just mentioned the three most expensive shops in Eastern Mass.
Try the Bi-Ex in Cambridge, International in Brighton or Wheelworks in
Belmont.

     RE: .5
    
    Of the three shops you mentioned, Lincoln Guide Service is the only
    one I WOULD let fit cleats for me.  I go to Pedal Power a lot and
    get along with the owners well, but I don't think they have the
    background to understand the kind of high intensity riding that
    you are talking about.
    
    Jim

    RE: .0
    
    I had an identical problem two summers ago. I had made two changes -
    I started using cleats and a gel type saddle. My problem turned out
    to be the saddle (no amount of adjusting seemed to help).  Find the
    problem and fix it fast....it took me 4 months of no riding at all
    to heal.  Listen to you body!
    
    Anita
    

After 15 years off of a bike I just started riding again and promptly overdid
it.  I've got tender knees now as a result and am trying to take it easy. I
just learned what spinning was and am trying to do less mileage, stay on
the flats and spin until my knees feel 100%.

I've got toe clips, no cleats, and am very curious about this "fit kitting"
business. What exactly is "fit kitting"?  Should I be getting cleats instead
of the clips I just bought?

I live in Franklin, MA, which is sw of Framingham, MA. Assuming that "fit
kitting" is something I need, does anyone know of any bike shops within a 20
mile radius of Franklin or Marlboro (which is where I work) that could be
trusted to do it right?

Thanks,
Paul

    Frank's Spoke 'N Wheel in Framingham (close to Framingham state
    on Route 9 east bound.) does Fit Kit.  Fit kitting allows you to
    measure the adjustments necessary to ensure a correct fitting bike.
    It is best done prior to buying a new bike to ensure that it will
    fit.  But the cleat adjustments can be done at anytime.  It does
    not guarantee a perfect fit but it does help a great deal.
    I highly recommend it for the cleat adjustment, especially if you
    are new to cleated shoes (regular or Look type).  People who
    ride alot can usually get the adjustment right them selves (although
    it is very difficult on the new "click in " systems.
    
    Quinn

    
    	Try Franklin Bicycle,  on RT. 140 in downtown (near the old movie
    theater).  The guy which run the shop is Joe and he does a good job.
    
    Vance
                                      

    
     Last week I experienced my first experience with "cyclist's knee".
    	
     Although I had some problems with my knees in college - due to
     swimming believe it or not. I've not had any problems since. I've
     used cleats for about 4 years but switched to the clipless system
      this spring. I had a "fit kit" done about a month ago. This 
     seemed to cause me great discomfort so I made some minor
    modifications. (Maybe this was a bad idea) Last Tuesday about
     20 miles into a 30 mile ride my left knee started to hurt. By
     the end of the ride I had to remove my foot from the cleat and
     pedal with only my right leg, hold my left straight. I took
     3 days off and went for an easy ride on Saturday. After 11 miles
    the same thing happened. Sunday I had a race and the pain started
    immediately this time and became excrutiating by mile 5. Now, the
    real puzzlers - it hurts more on down hills than uphills, I've been
    using easier gears than I ever have before, and the pain occurs
    at about the 2 o'clock position (ie. the upstroke). This seems to
    contradict everything I would intuitively guess to be caused by
    overuse or pushing to hard. Also, on Saturday I losened up the screws
    on my shoes  to see if it was the cleat adjustment and the pain
    was still very much there. Anyone else with similar problems? Anyu
    recommendations for a good orthopedist in the Framingham/Maynard/
    Marlboro area? 
    
    Any help is appreciated!!!
    
    	Jean
    

    My first suggestion wuld be to forget what the Fit Kit told you
    and go back to where your cleats feel most comfortable.  Look real
    carefully at the angle of your shoes to the pedals - if your toes
    are turned slightly in or slightly out in relation to  your pedals
    - this can cause stress on the knees.
    
    Also, when you are coasting, pay attention to which leg you keep
    extended, and which leg you keep bent - try to alternate.  If I
    keep my left leg extended too much, my knee starts to bother me
    - so I try to keep my right leg extended on those long downhills.
    
    

    
    Thanks for the input. I only biked twice with the fit kit 
    adjustments. I felt that if my knees felt strained just
    sitting in the cleats something wasn't right. From what you
    just said, I was right. I've also tried switching which leg
    I extend when coasting because I've also noticed that achey
    feeling if I always extend one leg. Could that I or two
    times of biking with the fit kit adjustments have caused some damage?
    Damage that didn't show up for 3 weeks?
    
    thanks for the suggestions.
    
    	Jean
    

>>    real puzzlers - it hurts more on down hills than uphills, I've been
>>    using easier gears than I ever have before, and the pain occurs
>>    at about the 2 o'clock position (ie. the upstroke). This seems to
>>    contradict everything I would intuitively guess to be caused by
>>    pushing to hard.
     
    	Jean,
	
(My guess)When you have the pain in that position its due to the muscle that 
runs over the top of the knee. You probably put a little tear in it pulling up 
on the pedal. Nothing a little time off won't heal. This is a problem that a
lot of cyclist have due to the fact that this muscle holds your knee together
when you pull up and push forward on the pedal. Also the muscles get
unbalanced around the knee, like if you just worked your back muscles and never
your stomach, you would have back alignment and posture problems. The best way 
to keep from tearing this muscle is to do some weight training. Leg extentions 
or leg lifts build this muscle up and strenthen the knee joint.  See a sports 
doctor to make sure you don't have any ligament damage and get some therapy.

Good luck

Tom who has felt the same twinge in his knee
    ========================================

    

    Does the pain come directly from the knee or at the lower part of
    the knee and shoot down your shin?  I have felt the latter case,
    I am  not sure why, but it feels like a cold chill.  Generally happens
    on a downhill, after a good climb with the legs getting good and
    sweaty. Before the ride rubbing wintergreen on the front of my legs
    and knees solves the problems.  

    steve

	Sounds like you've damaged something in your knee.  It probably
	isn't serious, but you have to get it healed before cleat
	adjustments, etc will make the pain go away.  I had some knee
	problems from running last winter.  I kept trying to rest for
	a few days, then run again.  The pain never went away.  Finally,
	I took three weeks completely off, then started running
	incredibly slow paces at short distances.  Slowly built up
	using the 10% rule and haven't had any problems since.  It's
	easier to do that in the winter when you don't want to be out
	racing but you've got to let your body heal.

	chris

    I had a similar thing happen to me last spring.  I basically
    concluded that its was the clipless pedals doing it to me (even
    though I love them).  After struggling to get rid of the injury
    for about 3 months and seeing numerous doctors I was able to 
    start riding again without pain.  I don't dare go back to the
    clipless again (well, maybe *next* year).  In addition to rest,
    I'd recommend staying out of them for a while.  Some knees just
    don't like being locked in place.
    
    Russ
    

    This may sound nuts but, not long after going clipless I had a problem
    with might right knee. Turns out it was my water bottle. I'll explain
    before anyone votes to have me committed. On long rides I would
    get a pain from inside my knee to the outside. I thought it was
    my new shoes and pedals but I noticed when reaching for my new tall
    water bottle, which I only carried on long rides, I would turn my
    knee out while pedaling and do the same when I replaced the bottle
    thus causing a problem in my knee. So now I pause when I R/R the
    bottle.

    If you happened to have put on aero style handle bar recently, which I
    know you did,  you may tend to point your knees outward similar to what
    .19 did with his knee while removing/replacing his waterbottle. 
    
    With the clipless pedals you should raise your seat a little since the
    clipless systems raise your foot a bit. When you use aero bars you
    might have to raise the stem. If you didn't do these when you put the
    bars and pedals on your body might be to close to your knees when
    pedaling and you will point your knees outwards to keep from kneeing
    yourself in the stomach/chest. 
    
    Paul

    Another thing clipless pedals do is keep your feet perfectly flat
    on the pedal.  With toe clips, your feet can rotate sideways towards
    your natural pronation.  If this is happening, a podiatrist can
    make some inserts.
    
    steve

    
    re. .19 and .20
    
    	You two may have something there. When I read .19 I immediately
    	thought the same thing as you did Paul. I will definitely look
    	into having my stem raised. I have noticed that I do almost
    	hit myself in the chest with my knees. Anyway, I have an
    	appointement with a doctor on Friday just to be sure I didn't
    	really do some serious damage. I'd hate to be fighting this
    	problem next year when a little preventative medicine now 
    	would fix it!
    
    	Thanks for all the replys. I guess it isn't as strange of
    	a problem as I thought.
    
    			Jean\
    

    Jean,
    
    I know you mentioned that you already have an appointment with a
    doc, but if you want a second opinion, I'd recommend:
    
    Harvey Taylor
    Sports Medicine
    Marlboro, MA
    (508) 485-3665
      
    What I like most about Harvey is the fact that he is an athlete
    (though I think a runner, not cyclist) and is sensitive to the mindset
    and needs of athletes. He's also good at diagnosing knee problems.
                                                             
    Mark
         

    
    Mark,
    
    What a coincidence, but that's exactly the doctor I'm seeing.
    He comes highly recommended as a doctor who doesn't like to
    cut and knows how to treat athletes.
    
    Thanks
    
    Jean
    

    Aside from this particular incident, is the Fit Kit still a good
    idea?  I have some history with knee problems that were corrected
    by therapy.  I've recently gone from touring shoes with clips to
    cleats and clips, and because of the prior knee problems, I have
    been planning to get Fit kitted for the cleat placement.  Should
    I go through with it, or just continue with trial and error and
    careful riding?

    Thanks!
    Barry

< Note 1192.25 by ATLV5::DIAL_B "Icons and Windows and Mice... OH MY!" >
                             -< Fit Kit verdict? >-

>    cleats and clips, and because of the prior knee problems, I have
>    been planning to get Fit kitted for the cleat placement.  Should
>    I go through with it, or just continue with trial and error and
>    careful riding?

I have knee problems and wouldn't dream of riding with cleats without having 
them Fit Kitted (RAD'd).  My knees are fine, as long as I don't pretend to be 
Lemond very often :^}

Kevin

    How much does this RAD cost anyway?

    If you don't have knee or ankle problems I can't imagine that it would
    be worth it.  Just find what is comfortable and leave it at that.  

    To set the fore/aft just position the ball of your foot over the
    spindle.  This has pretty much already been Fit-Kitted if you bought a
    shoe that fits.  Then look at your feet when you walk.  Do your toes
    point in, out or straight?  Set the cleats so they feel comfortable
    then take a ride around the block and make any adjustments if they
    don't feel right.

    Legal Disclaimer:  Remember I said if you don't have any knee problems. 
    If you do then I would say that it might be worth it to have a
    professional look at the cleat placement.  When I say professional I'm
    not sure that that would include a bike shop worker with a FIT kit.

< Note 1192.27 by VERVE::BUCHANAN "Bat" >

>    How much does this RAD cost anyway?

$10-$25, depending on bike shop.  If you buy your shoes from the same shop, 
they tend to charge less than if you bring shoes purchased elsewhere.

>    If you don't have knee or ankle problems I can't imagine that it would
>    be worth it.  Just find what is comfortable and leave it at that.  

If you intend to ride seriously at all, I'd recommend the RAD.  Overuse 
injuries sometimes take a long time to show up, and just because 'it feels 
comfortable' when you set them up, there's no guarantee that you're perfect.
If you're not, you could be causing slight damage every time you ride, which 
may not show up for months, when its too late to avoid taking some time off to 
heal.  

The RAD device allows your feet, ankles and knees to find their 'neutral'
position, which you then lock in by tightening the cleats.  This position is 
supposed to keep your joints aligned so no abnormal movement of the joints 
occur.  This position can be quite different for each foot.  

I can see nothing wrong with this system.  There are no guarantees, of course, 
and a poor technician or damaged equipment (either yours or theirs) could 
cause it to fail, but I'd never risk my knees to my, or anyone else's, 
subjective judgement.  Note, a good technician will probably also talk to you 
a little about your riding position and biomechanics, esp if you mention 
you've had knee problems.

Kevin_a_very_satisfied_RAD_customer_at_2_different_shops

    I don't understand the problem with setting up your own cleats if you
    are using a clip-ful system. Back before the days of adjustable cleats
    you would just ride around for a while with your new shoes and this
    would leave a wear mark on the sole of the shoe where the pedal rubbed
    on the shoe. You would then take the shoe to the local cobler and he
    would nail the cleats so that the line matched up.
    
    I did a similar thing with my new Nike shoes. I did go to a slightly
    longer toe clip once the cleats were set up (I wanted more clearance
    between my toes and the clip) but haven't had any problems.
    
    Of course, I haven't the slightest idea of how you can do this with
    clip-less systems...
    
    	Marty Sasaki

	I know this note has been dead for a while, but I want to resurrect it
  to make sure I'm not going to have problems in the future.

	Some background:

	I used to race before having a work enforced lay off cycling for 2�
  years. I've been getting back out on the bike in the last 5 months and am
  currently managing 35 mile runs a day in my 4 days off. I have NEVER had
  any problems with my knees before.
	Since starting back, I've made a concious effort to improve my pedaling
  action and to spin my legs more. I now feel most comfortable at 100+ rpm. I
  tried Look pedals some years ago when they were first starting to become
  readily available, but gave up, not through knee problems, but because my
  shoe didn't hold my foot tightly enough without the toe strap, resulting in
  traumas of the toe nails.
	I then rode toeclips until a month ago when I decided to give clipless
  pedals another go with the Shimano 105 ones. I had no problems until last
  weekend when on Saturday I experienced some 'discomfort' (it really was no
  more than that) at the back of my left knee. After the run, I had no other
  concern with that knee. Then on Sunday, I experienced pain at the same part
  of my knee, only this time with my right knee, and no problem with my left.
  This happened after about 15 miles. After the run I was in considerable pain,
  and despite not being on the bike today (didn't want to aggrivate it further)
  still have slight discomfort.

	I have two main questions:

	1. Don't know if it's coincidence, but I got a new 105 chainset on
  Saturday. I know that I'll have to occasionaly tighten it at first, but
  could the sideways movement until it settles in cause the problem?

	2. With toe clips, you used to ride without the cleat to mark your
  shoes to show where to place your cleat. Is there a similar process with
  clipless pedals other than just the gradual adjustment?

        I suppose my main concern is that I don't know how quickly I'd
  experience pain after making a change to the equipment on my bike. As a
  result, I'm not sure whether the culprit is my chainset or pedals (I've
  made up my mind that it's one of them).
	
	Graham.
                                         

	It may be your own equipment rather than the bike's, Graham.  Yes, I'm
seroius for once - I used to suffer most of the time in the UK with pains in the
knees, usually worse when it was wet and cold, certainly not caused by using big
gears because I never have been able to do so.

	When I first moved here I had a few problems but nothing like in the UK,
and since I have been putting in more km, I just get tiredness rather than very
specific pains (the expression is "completement crev�").  I put it down to the
climate and the extra fitness, because I can now manage 160 km in the back
country with several climbs to 1500 metres (relatively) comfortably.

	I ride 3 different bikes (at different times of course) with varying
degrees of antiquity in chainsets and pedals, I can't believe they are all true.
I don't use clipless pedals, although I would like to, it's just the walking
problem that stops me.....

	I did have some discussions with a physio in Essex, who said �it's never
warm enough to wear shorts in England� and he also suggested a high intake of
vitamin C had been known to help in some cases - which reminds me, I do take
vitamin and mineral pills now to try to replace what gets dripped onto the top
tubes.............

    The folklore which I have read claims that knee problems are
    particularly prevalent when you start doing regular cycling for
    the first time. I presume you get the same effect after a long layoff.
    I've been getting non-specific vague knee pains, almost but not
    exclusively in one knee, since I started about a year ago. Cold
    weather seems to be connected to it. A physio suggested doing leg
    weights and a lot of stretching, and I'll get round to the weights
    some day.
    
       I changed from clips to Look ARC pedals, which seemed to make
    little odds once I got the the cleats positioned. If they were wrong
    they caused pain very quickly.
    
       It is getting somewhat better, and I'd characterise it as soreness
    rather than pain now. But it has taken a long time.
    
       If you're concerned, it can't hurt to see a physio. There are sports
    clinics at Edinburgh Uni. Sports Centre, and at Meadowbank. They're
    your knees and you only get one pair.
    
    ---Alan

    
    	Maybe it is just me being new to the bike again. But I've been
    riding for 5 months now and would've thought that I'd have felt
    pain before now. After reflection, I think that it's probably that with
    my knees not being used to exercise has made them more responsive to
    small changes in what I'm doing. Think I'll probably give it a couple
    of weeks to let my body adjust and then if they're no better I'll see a
    physio. We've got a good one in town who used to do the Scottish Rugby
    Squad (slightly better than the football squad).
    
    Graham.
    

    Both my knees aren't much good, a legacy of playing Aussie Rules as a
    lad. I actually took up riding to strengthen my knees after a couple of
    operations and haven't been off bikes since. I really concentrate on
    spinning, but if my knees do get sore then I go swimming. It works
    every time. Even if you're not a good swimmer, use a kickboard or just
    prop up on the side of the pool and move your legs up and down ( a few
    thousand times!).
    

>
>	2. With toe clips, you used to ride without the cleat to mark your
>  shoes to show where to place your cleat. Is there a similar process with
>  clipless pedals other than just the gradual adjustment?
>

	Does this imply that you did NOT have your new cleats adjusted?
	If so, you should get that done.  Find a shop that uses the
	RAD system or something similar.  Misaligned cleats can 
	certainly cause knee pain.

	chris

    
    	Chris,
    
    	     I've never any type of system this side of the pond. I've just
    been doing a series of continual adjustments.
    
    Graham.
    

>================================================================================
>Note 1192.35                    pain in the knees                       35 of 36
>SOLVIT::LANDRY                                       13 lines   5-SEP-1991 08:30
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>        Does this imply that you did NOT have your new cleats adjusted?
>        If so, you should get that done.  Find a shop that uses the
>        RAD system or something similar.  Misaligned cleats can 
>        certainly cause knee pain.
>
>        chris
>
Chris,

From everything I've heard, the FitKit and RAD are a great idea. Only problem
is that, as mentioned, nobody in the U.K. or Europe generally thinks they are
wothwhile. Therefore, no cycle shops I know of have the equipment to do it! So
far, I've not been able to convince my manager that I need a trip to the U.S.
in orer to get my bike to fit me better.

Anyway, will the RAD actually help someone who has experience in using cleats?
I don't know enough about it. I would have thought that it was best suited to
people who had no previous convictions about how the pedal and shoe should go
together.

Tim

    Ok.  This is the way I put my Look cleats on.  I put my cleated shoe on
    a pedal [locked in tightly] and measured the position of the shoe with
    respect to the crank arm.  The 'ball of the foot' spot in the shoe was
    position over the pedal axle.  I then played with my Look cleats on
    a shoe until the she was in the same position as the previous cleated
    shoe.  Repeat for other shoe.
    
    I had had the cleated shoe RAD'd but if you had an acceptable position
    that should be fine.  I have put cleats on new shoes since then
    following the same procedure.
    
    ed

	The method in -.1 should work fine.  The idea is that if you
	know you had the position right with your old cleats, and you
	can get the same position with your Look cleats, you should
	be OK.  If you're starting from scratch though it would be
	difficult to get the right position with the Looks since you
	don't have anything like the old "ride for a while and see
	where the line is."

	Actually, come to think of it, I think I was "RADded" with old
	cleats and did basically what Ed said when I switched to Looks.

	chris

    
     I just recently purchased a used Cannondale road bike after 
    riding Mt. bikes for 4 years. I've also order a set of 
    Shimano 105 clipless pedals and shoes/red-Look cleats.
    I have never used clipless pedals before, but I hate dealing with
    toe clips in traffic. I have been riding at about 100 miles per week.
    If I can't get my shoes RAD'ed, how should I go about setting up the 
    cleats?
    I have what I describe as knee "tenderness" underneath the kneecap, 
    especially on my left knee. Reading various cycling magazines has 
    led me to believe that I have a condition where the underside of 
    the kneecap is rough. (my knees tend to pop and be noisy under 
    normal conditions) With ice and ibuprofen, it is quite manageable, 
    and I rarely feel the knee the next day. Is there any special 
    precaution I should take when setting up the cleats?
    Maybe we should also start a "how to set up clipless pedals" note?
    
    doug