Conference noted::bicycle

I'd suggest going with the frame you like - that's by far the hardest 
thing to swap out on a bike. Personally I like a frame to tend toward 
the stiff side for a touring bike. Altho you don't really notice the 
excess frame flex much in 'normal' riding, after a day on the road, the 
last miles will be just a wee bit harder, the last hills just a bit 
harder to climb... because your bike has been sucking up a little extra 
energy on each stroke. Also, if you plan on really touring (i.e. load up 
bike, head across country), extra weight on the bike accentuates frame 
flex, so it may be better to start with a stiffer bike. My personal 
preference, shared by at least a few folks I know, is to tour on what is 
basically a 'road racing' frame geometry (no criterium bikes need 
apply!).
                                         ken

In principle, I second the motion put forth by Ken MacDonald.  Get the
better frame, and ride the bike until you really have a handle on the
components - does the Shimano reall shift less well, or is it a matter
of familiarity?  Then, if you still prefer Sun Tour, change things one
at a time insofar as that's possible. 

A frame with "road racing" geometry makes an excellent fast daytripping
bike, but for serious touring I have to say that a little more forgiving
geometry will probably stand you in better stead.  Angles steeper than
73� tend to work less well with a loaded bike because the quicker
response will turn into more squirrely handling, especially on fast
descents, and because when loaded the bike will have an even harsher
ride.  But this isn't to say that a softer, whippier frame is better -
it's the geometry that matters, not the flex. 

- Dick

Hmmm, I shoulda mentioned a couple things about that - first, that using 
a road racing frame is MY preference, and distinctly NOT a 
recommendation for anyone for touring. Second, that all of my frames 
range in age from about 8-15 years, and that more recently, road frames 
seem to be built stiffer in general than they used to be. It seems to me 
that what I'd think of as a medium stiff road racing frame from 15 years 
ago might now be considered to have sort of a 'stiff touring' geometry.
Anyway, I don't know of a real accurate way to measure the frame angles 
on my bikes, and it might not make sense, anyway, since my bikes are all 
in the 25+ inch range, the necessary geometries and seat stay angles, 
etc. all play a bit differently together...

Anyway, on the original question, I doubt that you will find that a 
commercial frame marketed as a touring frame would ever be TOO stiff.
                                                    ken, again

RE.< Note 953.0 by EST::CRITCHLOW >
                          -< More New Bike Questions >-


>I am in the final stages of purchasing a loaded touring bike. 
>The the choices have been narrowed down to two bikes. The differences 
>are listed.

Are these the two bikes really your final choices?

>So putting slight price differences aside, do I go with the stiffer 
>frame and lower quality components, or stop worrying about the flex 
>produced when riding in a fashion I never do, and get the better working 
>components?

Go with the stiffest frame and for loaded touring get a triple front crank.

>Any and all advice will be appreciated,

I saw a Cannondale all set up for touring with the extra braze-ons and triple 
crank for $500 at The Ski Market in Sherwsbury. I thought it was a good
application of the Cannondale frame and you could probably find one on sale
right now.

Let us know how you make out.

TD
JC

>>Are these the two bikes really your final choices?

These ended up that way for a couple of reasons. One being availability. 
There are fewer and fewer touring models produced by the companies each year. 
Price also factored in. Many of the touring bikes came with higher 
qualiy components for a lot more money than these bikes. I can get 
either of these two for under $500.

>>Go with the stiffest frame and for loaded touring get a triple front crank.

Both have triple cranks and approx. the same geometry. the angles are 
72/73 degrees.

They both have 40 spoke rear wheels. They also have a lot of rake in the 
front fork to help smooth out the ride.

>>I saw a Cannondale all set up for touring with the extra braze-ons and triple 
>>crank for $500 at The Ski Market in Sherwsbury. I thought it was a good
>>application of the Cannondale frame and you could probably find one on sale
>>right now.

I will have to look into this.


I talked to O'Neils on the advice of Steve Fuller. Mike (works there) 
was the third person to say that the flex that caused the chainrings to 
move was in the crank. I'm still not sure about this.

So, what is the prevailing opinion out there, is it possible to switch 
parts of indexed shifting systems and maintain compatibility?

JC

    Re .5:
    
    There was a fairly involved discussion recently in MRJINX::CYCLE_RACING
    about the causes of chain rubbing against the front derailleur. The
    author of the note wanted suggestions for a really stiff chainset since
    he had been told that the problem was caused by lack of stiffness in
    the crank. However the consensus that emerged in the replies was that
    bottom bracket frame flex was the more likely culprit.
    
    For you, I'd say get the stiffer frame. It's the one non-replaceable
    component after all. The Cannondale mentioned should be worth a look,
    since they're very stiff. 
    
    As to upgrading your derailleur, yes, you could buy the Deore
    derailleur (for example) and it would be compatible with your existing
    Shimano block and gear levers but hopefully give better performance.
    It's something I too am considering, since like yours my bike has a
    Light Action rear derailleur that I'm not as happy with as I once was.
    Shimano are bringing out 7-speed Deore and Deore XT this year. I don't
    know if this will be compatible with your presumably 6-speed block, so
    you should try and get last year's model - probably cheaper anyway. 
    
    
    Rod

Well, after more looking riding etc. I decided to go with the bike that 
felt the best.

Even though there *may* be more flex in the bottom bracket I chose the 
1988 Fuji Saratoga. I picked it because it just plain felt better to 
ride. If in the future I decide the flex is bothering me (which I doubt) 
I can by a better crankset to fix at least "some" of the flex. My 
feeling is that there is some flex in both the bottom bracket and the 
crank. It is a matter of how much where.


BTW, if there are people who are looking to buy bikes that know how to 
service them, look into Whitco's in Spencer. I put a deposit on the bike 
there and he is ordering it. I live an hour away which is why service is 
an issue. Anyway, the Bicycle Barn in Westboro wanted $565 for the 
Saratoga, Bill at Whitco's said he would order it for me for $439. 
That's a big savings. I found his prices to be *very* competitive last 
summer when I was looking at mountain bikes. He will give quotes over 
the phone 508-885-9343.

I hope it works out now that I have decided.

JC

Re: .5

> So, what is the prevailing opinion out there, is it possible to switch
> parts of indexed shifting systems and maintain compatibility? 

By being incomplete, Rod MacFayden's answer in .6 is a little
misleading.  As he says, it's certainly possible to change components.  
But only *within a product line* - for example, any Shimano SIS lever
works with any SIS derailleur.  But you can't use SIS levers on Sun Tour
Accushift derailleurs or conversely.  The indexing in the levers is
based on a certain amount of cable pull to cause a single-cog gear
change, and the different geometries of the two systems are enough to
make it a different amount of cable pull.  They may be close, but they
won't be perfect, and your shifting will end up driving you loony.  This
is one way manufacturers can lock you into their components - you can no
longer mix manufacturer A's levers with B's derailleurs unless you're
willing to put the levers into friction mode (if they even have one) and
give up the indexing feature. 

- Dick 

I had one dealer tell me that it does not work well when you mix and
match the various Shimano components. He said that Suntour components
work a lot better when doing this. The very next dealer I visited said
there was no problem with doing that with Shimano. That was the source
of my confusion. I never even considered mixing Suntour and Shimano.... 

I appreciate all of the help and advice. It is amazing how much these 
notes files can enhance your hobbies.

Thanks again,

JC