Conference noted::bicycle

    Hi,
    
    I'll take a stab at answering your sew-up questions.
    
    Silk is the most expensive material to make tires out of,  Silk
    tires are supposed to have more give, flex, at high pressures, I
    have never noticed that.
    
    Cotton is cheaper and most good tires are made of cotton.
    
    Nylon, I can see the flames now, but my favorite set of racing tires
    around 1980 was a pair of nylon 230 gm tires.  They were tough and
    light.
    
    Belts under the tread - I didn't like them at all.  One thing you
    have to face up to if you are going to ride sew-ups a lot is flats
    and patching them.
    
    The good news about sew-ups comes here, any sew-up will fit any
    sew-up rim.  You don't have to worry about incompatability.
    
    I won't comment about feel except to say that lighter tires do make
    the bike easier to accelerate.  Durability is an issue with light
    tires, they do get flats easier.
    
    I don't know about streching but I always age my tires, you do this
    by buying some extra tires and hanging them in a cool dry place.
    I currently ahve a set which has been aging for about 3 yrs, although
    this might be extreme.
    
    The tires themselves won't be much of a problem.  Just make sure
    you use lots of glue.  When you are racing you should use twice
    as much glue as the average bike repair manual suggests.  In fact
    in some races they will inspect your tires by trying to rip them
    off the rim.  I wish this was done often, one of my worst racing
    accidents ocurred when somebody rolloed an under-glued tire in front
    of me.
    
    If you have anymore questions we can talke off-line
    
    Joe

    
    The advantage with stretching the tub is that it is subsequently
    easier to mount them when you get a puncture out riding. You should
    stretch them by storing them on an old sprint rim, thereby ageing
    them as well.
    
    John

As pointed out in the previous reply, tubulars come "out of the box" 
about 80% the diameter of the rim. Pre-stretching helps avoid the 
tire-glue-in-the-hair syndrome that you get when you find yourself 
halfway into installing a tire with a lot of sloppy glue and a tire way 
too small! (Read - HELPS, not PREVENTS). My favorite tire glue is 3M 
Trim Adhesive (made for cars); followed distantly by Clement Road Red, 
with Tubasti bringing up the bottom of the stack.

I used to ride silks, when I was feeling really decadent and could 
afford more than $10 / tire (guess how long ago that was!). Sorry, just 
nothing like 'em. You roll faster and in better control than anything 
else I've tried. Sorta like the difference between radial tires and bias 
tires on a car. Wonderful. They seem to be much stronger than cotton or 
nylon tires for an equivalent weight, but equally prone to road cuts and 
punctures. Pardon me while I reflect on those blissful days of yore ...

                                            ken

    You didn't mention cost, so I'll mention a somewhat expensive choice.
    
    		Clement Criterium Seta
    
    Why?  Because they feel wonderful, especially on a medium weight
    rim.  Maybe you go faster, maybe you don't.  It feels like it though.
    One summer I used a pair of these as my daily tires without a single
    puncture. (Luck or quality?) I wouldn't do that again, but for a 
    special set of wheels, why not a special set of tires?

    In a year and a half, I've never had a punctured tubular.  Maybe
    I'm just lucky. Of course, I was riding Wolber Neo-Pros over half
    of that time -- it would take an axe to cut them.  (What slow,
    unforgiving tires those are!)
    
    The tires I've used more recently are the best I've ever ridden:
    Avocet FASTGrip, 240 Gr.  They're a slick that's made in Italy.
    They have a really fine cotton shell and an excellent compound
    (hence the name).  These tires are FAST.  They're also supple.
    (And yes, they're also very expensive.)  I bought them for time
    trials, but once I had them on the bike, I couldn't go back to 
    riding anything else.

    If you want to appreciate the advantages of pre-stretching a 
    tubular, you might take a look at a piece I wrote earlier in
    this conference, titled "Tubulars."
    
    MATT

    The main diffenence between any type of casing is obviously going
    to be the ride.  From past experience I've found that silks tend
    to ride hard, therefore there a fast rolling tire.  The problem
    is traction on wet roads (there isn't much).  Clement criterium
    setas were mentioned in a previous note.  These are a great tire.
    They roll fast, but if there is any water on the road watch out.
    Cotton casings are genrally a little softer, providing more traction
    but also a slower ride.  In a race on a wet day a pair of cottons
    can save the day.  Nylon is a lot cheaper than either silk or cotton
    and therefore these tires are usually used for training.
    
    As far as belts go, these are strickly to help prevent flats.  The
    problem is that it makes the tire a little heavier and usually hard
    riding.
    
    You mentioned you are interested in time trials.  A hard tire is
    problably the ticket then since most time trial courses have little
    if any corners and the decreased traction of a hard tire will be
    little concern.
    
    The weight of a tire makes a tremendous difference in sprints; however
    it makes no difference in time trials.  It only takes extra energy
    to accelerate a heavy tire, not keep it at a constant speed. Thats
    part of the philosophy behind using disk wheels; there heavy, but
    if your never accelerating it doesn't matter. 
    
    Something that was not mentioned in any of the other replies is
    that the purpose behind aging a tire is to give the rubber a chance
    to harden a little to help prevent flats.  It can really make a
    diffence with some tires.  This is another advantage to belted tires,
    there is not a real need to age them since the belt will almost
    eliminate the possibility of a flat.  Once I bought 4 Clement criterium
    setas and rode 2 without aging them.  They both flated within about
    250 miles.  The other 2 I let sit for a year until the next season.
    I figure I got about 1200 miles on that set.  I've had similiar
    experience with unaged tires of other brands.
    
    Paul Dunn
    

Aging tires does seem to help, altho I've not ever tried to quantify the
difference. One thing I've seen folks do is to sniff the tires - an aged tire
smells, well, *aged*, where a new tire has that "new car/new rubber" smell
to it. I think that new smell is part of the solvents and goodies needed to
make the rubber, and after they evaporate out and the rubber sets up a
bit harder, you should have a better tire.

                                             ken

    A couple of more things to add to your confusion in selecting tires.
    
    Narrow tires have a tighter, more responsive feel, but are a little
    more squirrely on rough roads.  Wider sidewalls absorb road shock
    AND road feel.
    
    Cotton gives a less responsive feel, but is said to last better
    if used frequently in the rain.  If you get silk, be sure to get
    a bottle of latex (marketed as Tire Saver, or buy it from someone
    who lays carpet - they use it by the gallon) and recoat the sidewalls
    if the fibers start to show through.
    
    Aged tires DEFINITELY last longer.  I had an aged 3 years Clement
    Criterium Seta which survived 1-1/2 years of racing, on the back
    wheel.  It finally succumbed in a frame destroying crash.
    
    One more thing I've noticed is that some tire manufacturers do not
    glue their rim strip on as well as others.  In changing a flat,
    I've had the rim strip try to stay on the wheel with some tires.
     One of the tires which did this was the Avocet FASTgrip slick (which
    is, by the way, a very nice riding tire).  Wolbers used to do this,
    though I train on NeoPros now, and they seem to be much better.
    
    Jim
    
    PS - I HATE nylon tires.  Every one I ever bought flatted from
    a tread cut in the first week I had it.

    RE.8 or anyone else that has the answer...
    
    What is liquid latex used for in laying carpets? I asked a friend
    that lays carpet and he does not have any, but he has a latex looking
    glue. The stuff is potent.

    It is used on the sidewalls of handmade tubulars, strengthing the
    cords.  I brush on a thin coat whenever the sidewall looks dry.
    
    steve

    Steve,
    
    	I understand the application on the tire, but when I asked for
    some liquid latex from a friend of mine that lays carpet, he looked
    at me like I had two heads. He did have some contact cement that
    looked like it could be latex but I'm not sure. So back to the original
    question I had in .9.  What is the latex used for in laying carpet?
    
    Tom 

    I am told it is the same thing, I am not sure, the stuff I have
    came from a bike shop.  If you see the stuff, it has a real strong
    odor, thin in density, and if you put your fingers on it, it quickly
    creates a rubber band type of substance.
    
    I am sure the side of the container must have some ingredients.
    
    steve

    RE.12
    	I guess I'll try some out on a bad tire and see what happens.
    The ingredients list looked Greek to me.
    
    Thanks Tom

    RE:.9
    
    Latex is one of the components of that stiff, scratchy backing on
    carpeting.  The burlap looking backing of carpeting is coated with
    the stuff after the carpet has been made.  That's in the manufacturing
    process.
    
    It is also used by carpet layers to glue down padding on the floor.
    It makes a cement with good shear strength, and can be peeled off
    with no ill effect should someone decide to reverse the carpeting
    decision at a later date.
    
    Real latex has a strong ammonia smell.  That is because ammonia
    is used as a preservative.  (Latex is organic, so various
    micro-organisms would love to take up residence in it, with predictable
    results.)
    
    Jim

I've had a problem with my tubulars that I can't figure out how to slove it so
here goes.

When riding on a hot day any amount of hard braking will cause the tire to
slide in the rim. This will cause the valve to exit the valve hole at an angle
and make the tire come away from the rim just enough to make a clicking noise 
from the valve and or a bump in the ride every tire rotation. Now I'm not
dragging the brake and causing the rim to heat up, a short hard brake can cause
it.

Is it a problem with the brand of tubular (Wobler Pro SP1) Glue (wobler clear)
I do have a good base of glue on the rim. 

Any answers???

Tom

    
      Tom,
    
      Maybe its the way you put the glue on. Here is the process I use
    for my tubulars.  I have ripped the base tape off a couple of tires
    trying to remove them after this glue method.
    
    
    I Like to clean the rim of old cement first (some people prefer
    to leave it there). The stickiest glue I have used is Vittoria.
    
    Whatever kind of glue you use stir it real well. (I do this by taking
    an old piece of brake cable and spinning it inside of the tube).
    
    Apply a coat of glue to the rim covering it real well.  Let this
    sit and get tacky for at least 15 minutes no more than 25-30.
    
    After waiting for the first coat to dry apply a second coat to the
    rim and then a light one to the tire as well. wait for about 10
    minutes then apply the tire to the rim.
    
    I always wait 24 hours before riding on a newly glued tire.
    
    
    Note - Stirring the glue I have found out makes a very big difference
           in the amount of hold you get out of the Glue.
    
    John C.
    

    	John C.,
    
    	I've heard ya have to shave your arms to do tubs right!
    
    	Do you shave your arms?
    
    	Scott (I stick to clinchers)

    	It may be a combination of the how and the brand.  I have had
    better luck with Vittoria and Clement than Wolber clear glue.  Wolber
    seems more prone to softening on hot days.
    
    	Some of the trackies use 3M rim cement and claim that they don't
    have to wait a day for it to set up.  No personal experience with
    it, though.

    re: .17:"Scott (I stick to clinchers)"
    
    Why?  How?  Is it the patch kit glue?
    
    I mean I've gotten stuck to my tubies, but never to my clinchers, my
    word!
    
    :-)
    
    ed

    
      Scott,
    
       No, I don't shave my arms.  But my wife loves it when I shave
    my legs !!!
    
      
       John C.
    

    	Ed, John,
    
    	I made a pun w/o trying. Now, I'm sitting in the office
    	rolling.
    
    	Scott (I use clinchers 8-)> )

    Tom, I think I remember in a previous note (some months ago) that you
    were one of those people who left the old glue on when putting on new.
    Maybe the build-up has gotten to be such that the glue's not setting
    anymore.  
    
    MATT (who "sticks" to tubulars)

�    Tom, I think I remember in a previous note (some months ago) that you
�    were one of those people who left the old glue on when putting on new.
�    Maybe the build-up has gotten to be such that the glue's not setting
�    anymore.  
 
	It looks like thats way. I assumed the old glue would help more than 	
	hinder. Is there a cheap solvent I can use to clean the glue off my
	rims. Such as gasoline, I'd hate to use that little can of solvent and
	the brush to do my rims, it would take all day. 

Tom 

PS - I still think there worth the bother.

    
      Tom
    
       I use paint thinner and a soft wire wheel on my drill to take
    the old glue off.  I have never had any problem with the wire wheel
    taking any of the anodizing off the rim, it just takes of the glue.
       I know that there is stuff at the bike shop designed specifically
    as tubular rim cement remover.  You may want to try that too.
    
      John C.
    
    

>	rims. Such as gasoline, I'd hate to use that little can of solvent and

If you're contemplating using gasoline to clean, I suggest looking in the 
WOODWORKING notes about the two kids (one the son of a DECcie) who were
cleaning bike parts with gasoline when it all went up... one lived and the 
other died after about 6 weeks and a dozen operations. Reading that has
cured me from cleaning things with gasoline, you bet....

                                   ken

    I was going to comment about that, but Ken beat me to it.  Gasoline is
    dangerous enough in your car.  Don't use it for cleaning.  Besides, to
    penetrate the glue you need something that evaporates less quickly than
    gas anyway.
    
    Barry

    Well, my fourth flat prompts a new approach and a question. Has anyone
    tried the UFO's? 
    
    Paul
    

>    Well, my fourth flat prompts a new approach and a question.

what brand are you using now?

>Has anyone tried the UFO's?

yes, after about 2 weeks (~400) miles on a rear the tread started to peel away
from the casing. i brought it back to belmont wheelworks and they replaced it. i
have yet to mount this new tire. i haven't written these tires off yet because
you can always get a lemon.

nice to see another devotee of tubulars. here are some other tire ramblings
FWIW:

barum tubulars ARE THE WORST! the tape peels away from the tire, they blow out
because the seqing breaks, the casings rot quickly and you always get a high
spot where the valve stem is - thumpity-thumpity-thump... don't buy them.

i've converted to the justin crocker school of tires which is not to use cheap
tubulars. for me the best by far have been continental sprinters. they are very
symetrically made so they mount squarely. they resist tread cuts, the tread
wears well and their nylon casings don't rot in the slightest. this is
especially important to me because i have one bike and ride it rain or shine.
some tubular casings rot when they get wet. then they're susceptable to
blowouts.

i've been keeping track of all the miles i put on each of my tires and whether
or not they were on the front or back. my goal is to get average numbers of
miles per tire 1) before it goes flat and 2) before it's no longer repairable.
at the end of the season i will put this info in here.

       A Tubular tire question.  But first a short story:  Okay, I did the
   stupid thing and when riding without a spare tube or a patch kit and the
   inevitable happened...I got a flat...about six miles from home.
   Thankfully, the wife was home and able to retrieve me. :-)

       Now the question: Should I patch or replace the tube?  Will patching
   throw the wheel out of balance enough to notice?  I ride a hybrid but
   mostly on-road.

   Thanks,
   Tony

If you're riding a hybrid, then I doubt that you have tubular tires.

Tubular tires have the tube sewn into the casing, so when you get a flat you
replace the tube and the tire casing as a single unit.

If you can separate the tube and tire (without having to cut stitches), then you
have clinchers.  Bicycle tube patches are thin and have tapered edges, so they
are unnoticable.

Rich

    Would you buy a Chevy or a Ford? Pretty much what you're asking
    folks here... :-)
    
    Personally I never patch a tube. It gets junked. I believe that I could
    correctly repair a hole, but I prefer to trust an unpatched tube while
    hurtling down Mile Hill Road at 50+mph. 
    
    Only my opinion...
    
     Chip

    I patch tubes once in a while.  Last time I did so, I was cleaning out
    the basement and came upon some 50 tubes.  15 or so were never flat in
    the first place, just suspect (yeah one of those is flat, throw 'em in
    the pile and investigate later).  10 or so were snakebites -- which
    can be patched but even I draw the line with them on the other side.
    I patched the remaining 20-25 tubes.  5 didn't hold and were trashed
    without investigating the cause of the failure.
    
    ed

    I carry a spare tube, but patch the flat, and keep that as a spare. 
    Never had a patch fail.
    
    I've had more failures from replacing punctured tubes with new-out-of-
    the-box tubes than anything else, unless I'm using thorn proof.  I tend
    to keep the tubes if they've proven out.  I replace the tubes with new
    tires just for luck.
    
    Later,
    	  Mike

       Thanks for the answers, advice, and experiences...  Next question:  Is
   that a "tool" that better to use than a screw driver to get the tire back
   onto the rim after replacing the tube?  Maybe just brute force with my bare
   hands will be sufficient.

   Tony

    	Tony,
    
    	The bike shop sells tire spoons (whatever you want to call them).
    	They help you remove and replace tires. A screwdriver is too sharp
    	a tool to perform this function adequately.
    
    	Scott

   re: 536.35 <DELNI::CRITZ>

   >The bike shop sells tire spoons (whatever you want to call them).  They
   >help you remove and replace tires.

       Yes, thanks.  That's what I looking for.

   >A screwdriver is too sharp 	a tool to perform this function adequately.

       You ain't kidding, I've lost track of how many flats I've had to
   re-patch after just having patched it. :-(

   Thanks,
   Tony

If I get a patchable (by my ambiguous definition) flat, I'll patch it and leave
the patched tube in place. I always carry a spare tube, so if the flat is not
readily patchable then I use the spare. Once a tube has two or three patches in
it, I will discard it once I get the chance.

Tire irons (little bent/hooked bars or tongue depressor things) are very handy
tools to have to remove and re-mount a clincher tire. Some clincher tires are
soft and large enough to work with bare hands, but I find that most aren't. 
						-- Tom

My experience is that patches always hold on small puncture holes unless
you make a real pigs ear of doing the repair (which you would be aware of
while doing it). If you attempt to repair holes which are more like cuts 
or slashes, then over time the patch may fail. It grows a blister in the 
middle first - you might see this if you have the tyre off for another 
reason. Like -1, I ditch a tube when it has accumulated too many repairs.

You can often get a tyre back on without tyre levers. It's easiest if you
push the bead of the tyre into the centre of the rim where it can sit 
slightly deeper; then you can get that last bit over the rim with your
thumbs (if you have strong hands). But I haven't been able to do this with
the Michelin folding tyres I'm currently using, they're just too tight. For
them I use plastic tyre levers to get the last bit over the rim, but 
carefully, it's only too easy to catch the inner tube and puncture it at
this stage and that is *so* frustrating...


Rod

    I use a VAR tire tool, it's a plastic gadget made in France (or else
    marketed by a French company) hard to find 'em any more but it has a
    special design that makes it useful for getting those extremely tight
    fits on the first time.  Most of time, if I eat my Wheaties, I can use
    my hands for putting a tire back on the rim.
    
    ed

    ...and always remember to work toward the spot directly across from
       the valve stem (in other words start working the tire back on at
       the valve stem). Make sure you push the stem up into the tire all
       the way before working the rest of the tire on.
    
       Makes the job quicker and easier.
    
       Chip

    I've had patched tubes outlive a new set of tires (1500 miles).  As
    long as the hole isn't enormous and you patch it correctly, the patch
    will hold.
    
    
    				-David

   The problem with relying on just a patch kit is I have had some of
   my flats in the rain, and good luck getting a patch on when things
   are soaking wet.  And it's  faster to just stick in a new tube.

   Normally, I carry a patch kit as well as a spare tube, just in case.

   - Jim

    .42 - amen...

    I usually carry 3 tubes and save the patching for another time.
    If on an extended trip, I'll bring a patch kit, as Murphy's Insurance.
    
    ed

    
    For getting the tyre back on I find that kevlar beading tyres always
    go on without fancy tools but non-kevlar tyres have been known to break
    some of my 'unbreakable' tyre levers...
    
    Graham.

    >Normally, I carry a patch kit as well as a spare tube, just in case.
    
    Ditto.