Conference noted::bicycle

    It sounds like something could be wrong with the hub.  I doubt
    if straight 14 gauge will help if 14-15-14 spokes broke, at the head,
    and on the same side of the hub.  The spoke holes may not have proper
    chamfer, or may be too large for some reason.  Another possibility
    is that the wheel was not properly stressed, so the spoke line was
    not set right.  The spokes opposite the freewheel side are considerably
    looser than on the freewheel side, which could lead to flexing and
    thus failure.

    - Jim

    
      have your frame alignment checked at a good shop if the alignment
    is out it might be putting a funny stress on your wheel and thus
    the broken spokes.
    
                                               John C.
    

    
    	re .1	Yup, it is just possible that the spokes have been put
    in from the wrong direction, the "chamfers" are directional on a
    lot of hubs, though I'm not familiar with this particular one.
    
    	re .2	Huh ?
    
    	Reg
    

    Reg,
    	Directional chamfers?  Do you mean the grooves in the flange 
    that you see after cutting out the old spokes?  Even Shimano
    wouldn't make a hub that requires a specific hole to be button
    up or button down - or would they?                      

> Directional chamfers?  Even Shimano wouldn't make a hub that requires a 
> specific hole to be button up or button down - or would they?

	Sure they would, if Campagnolo did it first.

	Since the spokes always alternate head-in, head-out (except
	for a radial pattern where you can have all heads on the
	same side if you choose) a number of hubs have been designed
	with asymetric holes.  Usualy the edge of the hole that the
	head rests against will have a sharper radius than the
	edge of the hole that the spoke comes out past.  The
	design produces less stress at the critical bend in the
	head.

	Next time you have some spokes out, see if the holes are
	the same on each side.

    
    
    		How embarrassing - I HAVE seen that.  I didn't think 
    much of it at the time (gee, I get a nicer spoke line this way...)
    I don't remember it on old Campy high-flange, but on a Superbe
    sealed hubset.  You would have had a hard time putting the spokes
    in wrong. I suppose that if you managed to force them into place
    that way, the wheel would fail before too long.
                                       

    
    	I wasn't referring to the alternate head inside vs head outside
    pattern, I had *ASSUMED* that was understood.  I meant the,  "going
    clockwise vs counter clockwise from head to thread"  bias.

    	Disclaimer:	I don't use Shimmy hubs, have only very little
    experience with Crummonolo hubs.   *THE BEST HUBS*  in my humble
    opinion are the wide flange BH aerolites, as with most companies
    that have been better at making product than they were at making
    business....., they're long since gone.  Mine are probably only
    good for another 300,000 miles now, they've had a hard life.
    
    	Reg  [32 front; 40 rear, threaded fixed both sides; Arc en ceil
    are plenty strong enough in this config]
    
    

	If all you folks are running home to check if your hubs have built in
	directional chamfering, don't forget that on most used hubs you'll see
	a directional pattern anyways.  This is where the steel has cut unto
	the relatively soft aluminum of the hub.

	-Jeff

    This is a public service announcement.  After 2 season's of happy
    use on my Wheelsmith no-name  clincher rims, I crashed, wrecking
    me rear wheel.  I decided to splurge and buy a new pair of Campy
    Omega 32 hole clincher rims.  I decided to stick with clinchers
    because of the price advantage, fewer flats, and less mess.
    
    I ordered them through Nashbar and got Specialized sealed hubs and
    DT 14,15 gauge spokes. The rims weigh either 415 gm. or 451 gm.
    (Bicycling story, Nashbar catalog).  I also ordered two Specialized
    Turbo RK clinchers.  
    
    Well I just got the wheels and they looked beautiful.  Definitely
    lighter than my old wheels, I was ready to try them out.
    
    Well I knew the Turbo's were difficult to mount on my old rims,
    but I had hoped these would be easier.  Wrong.  Specialized Turbo's
    and Campy clinchers don't mix.  From 6:00 p.m. until 11:00
    I struggled to mount the tires.  I finally got one on, but no way
    on the other one.  I actually broke a plastic tire iron trying to
    to mount the second tire!  I wonder if I'll ever get the first one
    off the rim.
    
    I called around to a few bike shops and everyone got a chuckle when
    I mentioned how tough it is to mount Turbo's.  Supposedly Michelin
    Hi-Lites are easier, but still no picnic.
    
    I'm ready to return the wheels and buy a set of tubulars.  If the
    new lightwight clincher technology results in this kind of ordeal,
    I'll switch to sew ups!  Ya, the tubulars cost more and flat often,
    but they are still lighter and definitely easier to mount!
    
    If I went out and flatted on the one Clincher rim I could mount,
    I seriously wonder if I'd be able to get the tire bead over the
    rim to reapair the tube.
    
    Luckily Nashbar in Needham said I could return my wheels there.
    before I do, does anyone have any opinions on this?  Any
    recommendations on good Tubular Wheels and tires?
    
    Dave
    

    Dave,
    
    I'm not convinced that tubulars flat more often than clinchers.
    I've had tubulars on my last two bikes and, based on what I've been
    told by friends who ride clinchers, I don't think I've experienced
    more flats.  I've had seven flats in 3000+ miles this year.  Last 
    season I fared a little better, but not much.  This works out to a 
    flat about every 400-500 miles.  Is this frequency more than what
    you've experienced?  How about others out there?

    You're definately right about the cost factor though, I'm thinking 
    of getting clinchers for training.  Otherwise, it's $20-$30 per
    flat since my one attempt to patch tubulars was not a work of art;
    the tire was noticeably wider where I sewed it.
      
    Phil

    This issue was discussed in another note, I forgot what number.
    It really depends upon where you are riding.  If you train in the
    countryside where there is fewer broken bottles, tubulars are at
    their best.  They wear long and the rims are lighter and stronger.
    There are probably mail order shops ie: Branford bike, that are
    closing out this years stock.  Buy what your budget can afford and
    age them for next year.  A well aged tubular wears like iron, and
    resists small glass bits if you are light (I pulled a piece of glass
    from my wife's front wheel and just used some cement to patch the
    cut in the rubber). 
    
    steve

    I've had, I think 8 to 10 flats this year, that's 800 to 1000 miles
    per.  Most of them were before June.  All were clinchers.
    
    (I'm not counting the 100 plus holes I got in the tandem's rear
    tube last month, it was still only one flat.)
    
    ed

    I use Panaracer 200 and 240 gram tubulars.  They has a kevlar belt
    under the tread.  I rarely get any flats with these.  I usually
    wear them down to the cloth under the tread before I get rid of
    them.
    

I too have had trouble mounting Turbo R's, but only the first couple of times 
for each one.  I'm beginning to think that they need ageing (like tubulars) so 
I'm going to try mounting new ones on spare wheels and just let them sit, 
pumped up, for awhile.  I'm hoping this will solve the problem.  I ride 
Turbo's almost exclusively and haven't had any real problems changing them 
once they been on for awhile.

Kevin

    In reply to note .9;

>    I mentioned how tough it is to mount Turbo's.  Supposedly Michelin
>    Hi-Lites are easier, but still no picnic.

    Probably all high-pressure clinchers are hard to mount/dismount
    on/from the wheel.  This is a fact you have to live with using
    high performance clinchers.

    I think tubulars offers 2 main advantages over clinchers:
	- As you noted, they are much easier to replace.
	- They ride much smoother than clinchers.  This is due
	  to their round shape as opposed to clincher's U shape
	  where most of the pressure on the tire is applied toward
	  the outside instead than all around.
    
>    I'll switch to sew ups!  Ya, the tubulars cost more and flat often,
>    but they are still lighter and definitely easier to mount!
    
    I don't think tubulars flat more often than clinchers.  I rode
    a set of tubulars for well over 1000 miles without any flats.
    This year, I rode a friend's bike for 200 miles and got a flat
    with his Michelin clinchers.  No matter how you look at it, you
    can try to average the mileage you get from a tire, but you
    will probably get a flat when you least expect it!  I beleive
    that in average, you get similar mileage from both types of tires.

    When you get a flat with a tubular, unless you are very experienced,
    don't even bother to fix it yourself.  Specialists will usually
    repair a tubular for about $5.    


	Pierre.

>    When you get a flat with a tubular, unless you are very experienced,
>    don't even bother to fix it yourself.  Specialists will usually
>    repair a tubular for about $5.    

Anyone know of someone in the SoNH area who will fix tubulars for around 
$5 (or at all...). I've got about 20 or so flatted tubulars that would 
be nice to either fix up or junk... I've fixed 'em myself, but about 1/2 
the time, the fix doesn't really take, and then the tire is REALLY 
ruined.

                                             ken

The last couple of notes would lead you to believe that tubulars are easier
to install than clinchers.  NO WAY!

Mounting tubulars is a real art which takes time to learn.  Think back to
the first few that you mounted.  

The tire must be streched before it will come anywhere near fitting on the rim.
You can't just buy a new tire, stuff it under your seat and go riding.

With tubulars you put the glue on and then you get ONE chance to get it
on right.  If you mess up you end up with glue all over the sidewall, the
rim, your hands, arms, cloths, hair etc..

And as mentioned earlier most people can't fix a flat on a tubular.  How many
of you who ride clinchers throw out the tire and tube every time you get a
flat?  Not me, that's for sure. 

As I stated in earlier notes, tubulars feel great to ride and the rims are
stronger than clinchers, but the trade-offs is not worth using them, not
even close.  Sure use tubulars for racing but for day-to-day riding even
most racers use clinchers.  Clinchers are even showing up in races, the
American woman in the Tour de France used Michelins.

    Well, I ride clinchers too but if I didn't I sure wouldn't be
    convinced by knowing that an American woman rode them in the
    Tour.  Wasn't the best American woman finisher something like
    58th (Betsy King I think).
    
    Anyway, I ride Turbo VRs on my Mooney (mostly Touring IIs on my
    old Trek).  I always overinflate them (to about 120 psi) and  
    haven't flatted all year (I had one on January 31st on the Trek).
    I recently changed the rear tire on the Mooney after about 1900
    miles because it was worn and there were a fair number of nicks.
    I don't exactly ride in the city but I live in Arlington Mass and
    have to ride out Mass. Ave which is no picnic.  Maybe its dumb
    luck (and a lack of major mileage, I've only got about 3700 right
    now) but I haven't spend any money on tires this year.
    
    

This is the follow up to my original question.  Thanks for the good
    advice and opinions.
    
    I went to Nashbar and they were pretty helpful.  One guy broke
    a plastic tire iron trying to mount a Michelin Hi-Lite Super Comp!
    It took about 15 minutes to take off the one Turbo I did manage
    to mount.  They suggested I try a few other stores to see if I could
    find a workable tire.  If I couldn't or just was fed up, They would
    take back the wheels.  
    
    Ruben at International in Brighton had a pair of Continental
    Supersports and recommended them highly.  They only cost $11.00
    each, and they fit!  The reason is that they have a steel bead and
    are preshaped.  The Kevlar clinchers (Turbo's,Michelins) are foldable
    and just more difficult to mount.  Ruben said that a few others
    have come in complaining about the same thing as me.  The Continentals
    rate very highly also, but they aren't as light and have a higher
    rolling resistance than Turbo's.
    
    If you decide to opt for high performance clinchers (specifically
    Kevlar) and lightwieght rims, be prepared for a struggle.  Maybe
    my problems are due to the Campy rim having a more pronounced hook
    bead rim, I don't know.
    
    Now I have a good lightweight set of clincher wheels for training
    and racing.  I think I'll probably build a set of Tubular wheels
    for racing this winter.  Then I can have the best of both worlds!
                                                                     

I'm having problems with my front wheel lately. It is creaking when I climb out
of the saddle. The wheel is very true and round and the spokes sound tight. As
I was checking the spokes I notice one nipple that creaks when I pull and push
on the spoke. Tightening the spoke only brings the wheel out of true tightening
the other side makes an out of round wheel. This wheel is 2,000 miles old
and is a radial spoked Araya Areo1 tubular. 

Should I rebuild the wheel with new nipples and spokes?
Or tighten all the spokes and then true the wheel?

Tom

    First consideration, is the grommets in proper place inside the
    rim, if not the nipple can work though the rim, I mistakenly replaced
    a spoke without the grommet and ruined one rim.
    
    steve

    I was going to suggest the same thing:
    
    	1) dismount the tire
    	
    	2) unscrew the nipple completely and remove it
    
    	3) remove the spoke
    
    	4) check the hub and rim for cracking around the spoke and 
    	   nipple hole
    
    	5) if all is OK (and the grommet is still there) put some
    	   lubricating wax on the offending parts
    
    	6) reassemble the wheel (maybe use a new spoke and nipple "for
    	   luck" ?)
    
    	7) retrue the wheel
    
    		-Bill