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Conference noted::bicycle

Title: Bicycling
Notice:Bicycling for Fun
Moderator:JAMIN::WASSER
Created:Mon Apr 14 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:3214
Total number of notes:31946

296.0. "freewheel wobble ?" by BARTOK::LERNER () Fri May 01 1987 09:55

I wanted to ask this question becuase I've gotten varying responses 
from people I've asked. 

My bicycle, recently purchased (pretty good bike - 1986 model that 
retailed for about $400) as a leftover from '86 was having a recurring 
problem.

When I was riding along, suddenly, the chain would jump up as if I 
were shifting, settle back in, jump up, settle in and so on. Well, 
needless to say this was pretty annoying, so I've taken it back to the 
shop were I bought it.

Before I took it in (tuesday) I flipped the bike over, cranked the 
pedals, and let the rear wheel spin. The rear wheel was spinning very 
true to form, but the freewheel (I hope I'm describing this right, I 
know little about the mechanics of a bicycle) wobbled slightly. If you 
were standing behind the bike, you could see a very perceptible wobble 
in the cluster of gears that is in the back. I thought that this might 
have been causing the problem.

When I got the bicycle to the shop, the owner looked it over and said 
that this movement was normal. The problem was due to a kink in my 
chain (which would occasionally relax). This was apparently why I only 
experienced the skipping infrequently.

Anyway, I was still concerned enough about the wobble to ask a few 
folks about it. I got a resounding 'that's not normal' from a couple 
of them. I called another bike shop (one that has a good reputation 
and no vested interest in the issue) and the guy I spoke with said 
this was perfectly normal. 

Does anyone know what's what on this point. My bike is in the shop now 
and I'm supposed to pick it up this afternoon, so I'd like to walk in 
knowing whether the shop owner is on the level or just pulling my 
crank.

Sorry to get so long-winded. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Tom
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296.1It's normal, sometimes.RAINBO::WASSERJohn A. WasserFri May 01 1987 10:3118
> the freewheel wobbled slightly.
> the owner said that this movement was normal. 
> I got a resounding 'that's not normal' 

	I believe that some models of freewheel are designed to
	wobble slightly for the same reason that some freewheel
	cogs have twisted teeth...  it makes the shifting more
	positive.  The cogs sort of wiggle their way into the
	slots in the chain.  If it weren't for techniques like
	this there is a possibility that the chain could hit a point
	where the side plates were riding on the top of the cog
	teeth instead of the rollers riding between the teeth.

	If the freewheel has no side play in it, it spins smoothly
	and the cogs are tight, the wobble either normal or
	harmless.

				-John Wasser
296.2freewheels wobble but they don't fall down...SUSHI::KMACDONALDMacarooned on a Dessert IslandFri May 01 1987 12:1213
As John pointed out in .1 the freewheel wobble is almost certainly 
normal. I've seen it (more or less) on hundreds of bikes, though it's 
tough to see on some. The chain skip problem is almost always caused by 
a mis-match between the chain and freewheel. Tight links, new freewheel 
vs. old chain, new chain vs. old freewheel can all cause the mismatch,
as well as damaged teeth on the freewheel. Bad derailleur tension is 
rare, but a possible cause, also.

Many folks recommend changing the chain and freewheel at the same time 
to avoid the above, I'm somewhat luckier because I usually don't have 
to.

                                                  ken
296.3Bent rear axle?COLORS::BROWNFri May 01 1987 15:472
    I bet its a bent rear axle.  Take out the axle, take off all the
    cones, washers, and nuts, and see how it rolls.
296.4It's not the axleTALLIS::JBELLWot's..Uh the Deal?Fri May 01 1987 16:2810
>    I bet its a bent rear axle.  

That doesn't seem right to me.  I've seen that wobble when the bike is
freewheeling.  The axle is stationary relative to the freewheel, but the
freewheel still wobbles.

My guess is that that it might happen if the threads on the hub that hold on
the freewheel are not quite aligned with the wheel. (?)

-Jeff Bell
296.5yup, normalNOVA::FISHERMon May 04 1987 05:415
    I've seen "a slight wobble" in a lot of freewheels and, after being
    informed that it was normal, proceded to put many, many miles on
    them.  No failures yet.
    
    ed
296.6all's well that ...AITG::LERNERMon May 04 1987 11:5712
    The movement I had was definately more than slight.
    
    As it turns out, he replaced the freewheel for me by the time I 
    dropped in to pick the bike up.
    
    With the new one, I can detect no wobble. 

    I still find it interesting that they should wobble at all. 
    
    Thanks for the input.
    
    Tom
296.7Money versus harmless wobbleORACLE::RAMEYTue May 05 1987 18:5239
Some wobble is perfectly normal.  The question is where to draw the line.
Well, the tolerance of your derailleur, chain and free wheel system sets a
practical limit.  For example, if the derailleur body must move x inches
laterally to effect a gear change, then an effective wobble of the cog on
the freewheel body of 0.1 x is no sweat, but 0.9 x could be a real problem.

A bent axle can cause poor wheel bearing operation, but unless the bearings
are loose, the wheel will rotate around the cones on the ends of the axle.
If there is a kink in the axle, but the cones still have decent clearance
to the races in the hub, then there is no wobble.

This reminds me of the time my advisor asked me to help tune up his
families bicycles.  The rear wheel of one had a severe wobble.  He started
to loosen the wheel, to shift the axle around to straighten out the wobble.
Instead I did a quick 5 minute wheel truing job!

But back to the free wheel.  For a free wheel body to not wobble, the
tolerances of the threads on the hub with respect to the center of
rotation, and the corresponding tolerance between the races in the
freewheel body to the freewheel body threads, and cog teeth to cog mounting
to the body will all have to be very tight.  Plus the bearings in the
freewheel would have to be very precise.  This would all be a great waste
of money.  The bearings in the freewheel are there for when you, the rider,
are goofing off.  They rotate when you are not peddling, so are more a
convenience than a critical factor.  When you peddle, the bearings don't
turn.  True, they experience some compressive forces, but the ratchet pawls
in the freewheel take the drive force.  So, bearings that are good enough
to not eat up much of the x tolerance discussed above, along with machining
tolerances for the threads the meet the same type of concern are all you
want to spend money on.

There will be considerable variation between freewheels, but this is not
likely to cause problems.  The only freewheel wobble I ever had problems
with was when the bearing retaining ring came unscrewed, and I dropped most
of the tiny bearings along a fair stretch of Wisconsin highway!  Now that
was a wobble!  But it was the increasing noise that made me stop and check
it, not problems with shifting. 

Del 
296.8no big dealSUPER::CONNELLThu May 07 1987 11:418
    
    As other noters have said, I wouldn't worry about a slight wobble.
    
    I have seen it on a lot of new, expensive bikes with fancy hubs
    and freewheels.  
    
    Chuck