Conference noted::bicycle

    I'm thinking about the rack that mounts the bike with the front
    wheel removed.  It seems more stable to me, as the bike presents
    a lower profile this way, and it seems that less stress would be
    put on the headset.
    
    My concern about trunk racks is using the bikes as a rear bumper...
    
    Kevin
    

    I use the Thule system where the bike is upside down.  I chose
    this system because:
    
    o No risk of bike falling off of rack. 
    
    o No need to remove front wheel
    
    o Cheapest of the thule bike systems
    
    It does take the most strength to put on top of the car,
    if you are small, it could make it more difficult.
    
    steve
    

	I currently have a trunk (hatchback) mount rear carrier.  It
	holds one bike very well and two bikes fairly well.

	PRO:
		It can be installed and removed easily.
		You don't have to lift the bikes very high.
		The bikes are carried upright.
		The bikes are safe from low hanging obstructions.
		It was both cheap and solidly constructed.

	CON:
		The bikes tend to block the view through the rear window.
		One wheel sits in front of the exhaust pipe (on my car).
		Cannot open the hatch when the bicycles are on it.

	My second choice would be a roof rack where the front wheel
	is removed.  Between the handlebar pack and the foam grips
	I don't think I could get my handle bars into an inverted
	rack.  The racks where the front wheel is not removed have
	to clamp to a frame tube...  water bottles and computer
	wires get in the way.

	In a choice between a roof rack and a rear rack, I think the
	bikes would be safer on the rear.  I expect that you are
	more likely to encounter a low overhang (having forgotten the
	bikes are on the roof) than to be struck from behind by another 
	car (or back you car into an object when you can't miss seeing
	your bikes in the mirror).

	My recommendation would be a rear rack that clamps to the
	bumper and can be removed easily.

			-John A. Wasser

    
    Since you already have the Thule bars then you don't need another
    rack. The Allen (off the trunk) racks are prone to breakage. The
    consequences are obvious.
    
    Something to think about:
    
    The upside down is great, but if you go into a hostile area you'd
    better take down the wheels or you might be in for a rude surprise.
    With the front-wheel-off or upright mounts you can get locking knobs
    that will at least make it difficult to steal the wheels (and frame).
    
    The bike should never fall off the rack with a front fork clamp
    arrangement.
    
    BTW I use a LaPrealpina bike/ski rack. Lost a front wheel on route
    84 in CT when I hit a large pothole. The wheel bounced in front
    of an 18 wheeler and was pronounced dead on arrival.
    
    I never use those wheel holders anymore.
    
    CdH
    
    

Just a general thought:

In most of the situations I have heard of, the bike does NOT fall 
off the rack -- the whole rack, bikes and all, falls off the car.

Moral:  Before each trip, check all clamps and straps.


	~Mike

re: .3 - If your wheel is in back of the exhaust, you have a problem 
just waiting to happen. I have seen several cases where the exhaust
melted the tire, and the melted gunk is so persistent that the whole
wheel (except the hub) had to be replaced. If you use one of the bumper
racks, ALWAYS make sure that the wheels are away from the exhaust....

                                                   ken

    When I mentioned using bikes for a bumper as a negative to trunk
    racks, I was mainly thinking of someone else backing into or otherwise
    smashing the bike.  Since I'm a canoeist, I'm used to having large
    items on my vehicle's roof, so I don't worry about hitting low
    overhangs. Never have!
    
    Kevin
    

    If your interested in a bumper rack, Nashbar has one on sale for
    $15.00 that perminantely clamps to the bumper and has removable
    stems.  This makes getting the rack on and off a snap.  I haven't
    owned a roof rack bucause they appear to be difficult to install
    and deinstall and I don't think I'd want to go thru a car wash with
    one on.  If your concerned about rear/trunk mounting, try mounting
    the rack on your front bumper.  This way the bike is always visable
    to you and unless your traveling at night doesn't seem to interfear
    with things.  Also a hevy duty bike cable lock can be run thru the
    cars grille, both wheels and the bike frame discouraging theft.
     I used this set up on my Jeep Cherokee last summer without fear
    of losing my bike in the MKO lot.
    

    I have a Thule roof rack - the kind where the bikes ride right-side
    up - on a Subaru wagon.  I'm tall, but that rack is way up there!  
    I find it real hard to get the bike up that high, plus the clamp 
    that holds the bike on is very awkward.
    
    It's usually a matter of trying to stand precariously inside the
    car, hold the bike up with one hand while maneuvering that clamp
    with the other hand.  If you're less than 5'10", I wouldn't even
    think about it.
    
    I used to have a Cannondale roof rack where the bikes rode upside
    down.  The rack fell apart, but I found putting the bike on upside
    down was much easier.  
                                    
    Kathy

I have now an old Schwinn upright roof rack that sits up there on big 2"
suction cups. The bikes sit in a gutter type facility and there's a removable
arm that attaches to the frame and (hopefully) keeps the bike secure.
The suction cups are all dried out, and getting replacements is proving
to be difficult. It looks stupid next to the grand wizzy high techie things
I see today, and certainly doesn't *GO* with my new car, much less my new
Counterpoint. But I AM used to it, and it HAS created a couple dents in
my roof so it fits perfectly, now. But maybe I should get a new one
for asthetic reasons.......
I dunno,
As I see it, The trunk carriers have the disadvantage of carrying the bikes
too low. I admit to scrunching a wheel going into a steeper than perceived
driveway a couple years back. 
Then the roof racks are too high. If the bike sits upright, the bike sits 
precariously way up there while you try to secure it before gravity takes 
over. 
If it's one of those quick release gizmos, you have the extra added attraction 
of having to align the fork thingies with the carrier whatchamacallit without 
skinning your knuckles down to the elbows. 
Else you have the adorable upsidedown carriers, which treat you to a mess of 
half squashed flys, bees and skeeters, as well as a half pint of rain water ...
as you tilt the bike down from on high.

Reg, I guess the only answer is t'hell with the BMWs! ride it there and
ride it back!

Besides, who can find a rack to fit the 56" wheelbase my new baby has?????


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-gary=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I plunked down big bucks for a Thule system for my GTI.  I drove home from the 
shop with it on my car and drive to Phila too.  Put the bike on the rack on 
the ground, but I never bothered putting the bike on the rack on the car.
Having a hatchback is just too convenient.

Over Xmas I drove to Florida and back and took my bike along.  I had the rack 
on until Phila, when I decided that it would fit inside with the bike, and 
improve the car's Cd.  I picked up a lot of presents and a girlfriend with 
luggage in FL, and still had no problem fitting the bike and rack inside.

Moral: Don't buy a rack unless you neeeeeed it.

cbs

Anyone wanna buy a Thule rack (bike upright), never been used?

    re: 204.9
    
    Visibility isn't a problem if you have a car with a relatively tall
    square hood/grill assembly (like my Cherokee) as the bike will
    ride well below the hood with only the handlebars sticking up over
    it.  Granted this method of mounting won't work for every car. 
    Also the weight of the bike is supported by the bumper attachment
    and the retaining straps, which can actually be attached to the
    frame UNDER the hood so no damage is done to the grill work.  As
    pointed out in 204.13, a big concern for bumper mounting is scrunched
    wheels from steep driveways and curbs.  The only way around this
    problem , wheather you mount your bike front or rear is to remove
    one or both of the wheels.  This method works for me, hope you
    find a good solution for your particular situation.
    

    re .12	Yup, ride it there and ride it back.   Driving to rides
    always seemed a contradiction anyway, unless you live in the city
    and need to commute to country roads.  There's so much good riding
    around here I'll probably never cover it all, still less tire of
    it enough to want to drive to a ride.  Well, I guess I'll drive
    to the Time Trials this year, (wonder if any CPTs will be there ?)

    	Going on vacation is about the only time I *NEED* a roof rack,
    and then I need it badly.  I just got another vehicle, don't know
    how to handle the bikes yet, its * HIGH ! *
    
    	Reg
    

    I am thinking about purchasing a rear mounting rack from the L.L.Bean
    catalog.  I have a Jeep Cherokee and had hypothesized building some
    sort of rack which would clamp to the top of the hatchdoor and to
    the bumper.  Then a few days later there it was in the Bean catalog
    and it was shown mounted on a Cherokee!!!  I couldn't believe it!
    And the price looked quite reasonable (about $26.00). 
    
    My question is does anyone know if this particular rack is any good
    (I don't know who builds it) and is this a good price?  Thanks.
    
    	Tom
    
    P.S.   Regarding driving to a ride, in the summer I go to the Cape
    just about every weekend (from Maynard) and I just don't think I'm
    up for that kind of a commute �la cycle...

    
>    My question is does anyone know if this particular rack is any good
>    (I don't know who builds it) and is this a good price?  Thanks.
 Tom, for a 2 hour drive (3 if you drive like me) , you can go up there
and check it out. Bean's never closes. More importantly, if you get the
rack and decide later you don't like it, take it back. Their guarantee is
just what they say it is. No questions asked. You decide you don't want
the product...whenever...they refund what you spent.
I returned a jacket after about 5 years, knowing they'd laugh at me, but
wanting to prove they lied...and they not only returned my purchase price,
but also the postage I spent to send the jacket back!

Go ahead and try it. Unless you don't care for the hassle of sending it
back in the event you're dissatisfied, you can't go wrong!
And if you DO care about the hassle, go on up to look it over.

    Like Chris, I bought a LaPrealpina rack to mount on a GTI. It's
    a vey sturdy, well-made rack, but it's a pain to use. It's quite
    a process to fit the fork stays into the front-end mount. My wife's
    bike is a Ross Super Gran Tour, with those weird non-dropout stays,
    and that's nearly impossible to fit into the fork stay clamps. 
    
    I chose the cheaper rea wheel clamp on the rack, which is a strap
    and buckle system. Big mistake. The things never really clamp tight,
    and they're a pain to keep pulling, stretching, etc. The first time
    we went anywhere with it we ended up on a dirt road. The bouncing
    loosened the fork stay clamp on my bike. result: bike lifts up on
    next big bump, then places sharp fork stay hard on the roof of my
    shiny new GTI, and cuts a nice 6" long groove in the paint. It was
    my fault for not tightening enough, but that means you have to really
    crank down to tighten it enough.
    
    Now I have an '86 GTI, with recessed rain gutters, so the Prealpina
    won't work on this car at all. It will fit my wife's Dasher, though.
    Like, Chris, I've found that whenever possible I end up carrying
    the bikes inside the car. Even removing both wheels is still less
    hassle than setting up the roof rack.
    
    Moral: LaPreAlpina is a fine product, but think hard about how much
    hassle you're willing to put up with before you go to any roof rack
    that requires removing the front wheel.
    
    DC

    
    Dave,
    
    You can get new mounts for your existing rails for your gutterless
    (not gutless) GTI, for either the roof or on the hatch.
    
    CdH
    

    I've been transporting my bike inside my cars for many years, it's
    by far the best idea.
    
    But now I have a shiny new T-bird, and to fit the frame into the
    trunk, I might as well break it down for shipment by U.P.S.
    
    Has anyone had any experience with the gutterless systems?  Any
    problems with anchoring the rack to the car?  I've also seen trunk
    mounted racks where the bikes travel as they would on a roof rack.
    That is, they don't hang off the back of the car, but ride atop
    the trunk.  Has anyone had any experience with this type of set
    up?
    

    Yakima has a relatively inexpensive conversion kit to gutterless
    rack for their system ($20-$25?).  But I bet you've got something
    else...
    
    Kevin
    

    
    A good friend of mine brings his bike to the races on a La Prealpina
    trunk mounted rack on his Mercedes. Never had any problems.
    
    CdH
    

    reply
    It was bound to happen.
    
    Bike on roof rack + automatic garage door opener =
    very mangled wheel, dent over garage door, and very PO'd husband.
    
    (He did it, not me!)

    re .23	See, that's what Y'get for havin a fancy Layzee automatic
    door opener.
    

    
    For VW Jetta owners:
    
    The later model Jettas have a rubberized rain gutter.  I was about
    to sell my old PreAlpina rack and buy a fancy Thule number.  It
    appeared that the PreAlpina would not fit on the Jetta.
    
    After a little time and patience though, I discovered that the
    PreAlpina does fit the Jetta.  It looks initially like it won't
    work, but fits fine.  You just spread the two sections of rubber
    with a dull knife as you insert the mounting clips.
    
    Chuck
        

I _think_ the original question was "which Thule adapter to use". I haven't
used the less expensive ones (upside-down handle-bar mount; fork mount). I have
the upright kind.

When I first bought it it was REALLY rigid. My car had a good gutter (still
does, as far as I know, I just don't own that car anymore :-), so the
rack was stable. The first year or so, the bike, once mounted, didn't
so much as even sway in the breeze.

Now, despite tightening it up, I find it moves disconcertingly from side
to side. I'm not afraid of losing the bike (or the rack), it's just that
I am sure it's moving from side to side when I corner takes a toll on the
rack.

I think I'd suggest the handlebar mount because of this.

I should point out that prices on Thule racks and accessories vary widely -
perhaps 20%, from mail-order place to place. One of the common ones had
consistently good prices, alas I can't remember which. Do a little
comparison shopping (if you're still in the market; I'm more than a little
behind in this file).

-scott

I've decided on a THULE bike rack for my Blazer.  I need the type that
attaches to my 'permanent' (nothing is permanent) roof rack.  I called
Bike Nashbar and LL Bean but they don't have the model i need.  I did
find the type in a bike shop yesterday but i'm trying to find one a little
less expensive than the $80.00 the bike shop charges.  After adding the
two bike mounts for $32.00/ea., this system gets expensive, fast!

Does anyone have any other mail order places i could check?

		-jim-

    re .27	I hope you're tall, like *REAL TALL* !  I have a Yakima
    rack on top of a GMC (I know, G_eneric M_otor C_ar) Suburban, and
    its a helluva reach to the inside (of four) bikes.
    
    	Actually I only have the Yakima rails, the rack is a homebrew
    concoction of two add on kits of Bike Porta (I think thats right)
    parts, the ones that stand up like big X'x.
    
    	The principle reasons for chosing Yakima vs Thule were:-
    
    	a)	Round vs rectangular section rails offer more adjustment
    capability, with some of the accessory kits this could be important.
    
    	b)	The clamp bracket permits adjustment to fit non parallel
    (before the acciDENT) rain gutters.
    
    	c)	Conversion for cars without rain gutters (tower type ?)
    would be a lot cheaper, not an immediate problem.
    
    	d)	Jim O'Neil had both in stock, wasn't pushing either
    one, side by side the Yakima appeared to be better quality (subjective,
    paint quality can hide poor construction I know).
    
    	e)	The Yakima seems to start out more expensive for the
    basic rails, but gets cheaper than the Thule with just one bike
    carrier on it.
    
    	f)	Its a USA product.  This wouldn't be a deciding factor
    if it were in any way inferior, it just feels better buying "domestic"
    vs "imported".  OK, send me the political flames and tell me that
    Yakima imports from wherever.
    
    	Reg

    	(Not trying to change your mind, just relating my own choice)
    

    Here's a question:  Does anyone rent car bike racks?  My previous
    one rusted out.  But I want to take the bikes to Virginia over
    Columbus Day weekend.  I thought it'd be a chance to try a different
    (newer) model before settling on a purchase.
    
    Good areas are Worcester, Marlboro, Leominster.
    
    Elaine
    

    re .29	I don't wrent, won't even consider liability issues,
    I might lend.  Its a hybrid design (polite euphamism for, "you'd
    have to see it to believe it") incorporating Yakima rails and Bike
    Porter add on kits.  Like some of dec's products its design "evolved"
    through a couple of generations.

    	Reg
    

My favorite bike rack is not available in stores.

It is built of 2x4's and rain gutter brackets, and can hold up to four bikes.
It probably costs less than 25$ in parts.  I think that they have the design
in the back of The_Complete_Bicycle_Book (the 2 inch thick white one).

I could lend it out, but only to people who own a car that is the same width
as a 1984 Renault Alliance, 1970 Duster or 1974 Malibu. (Those are the holes
that are already drilled in it.)

In addition to using it for bikes, I have used it for canoes, kayaks, skis,
washing machines and clothes dryers.

-Jeff

I need to find out if the Thule will fit on an 87 Mustang GT.  If not,
is there some rack that might work?

Chuck

    
    DO THEY MAKE A ROOF CARRIER THAT WORKS IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE ROOF
    RACK ON MY PLYMOUTH VOYAGER?
    
    
    

    RE: .33
    
    I have a Dodge Caravan which is the same as your Voyager.  I am 6'7"
    tall which is probably (pure percentage here) taller than you.  I
    cannot imagine getting bikes on the top of the minivan. Are you sure
    you really want to put your bike(s) there?  It is hard enough getting
    skis up there, never mind bikes.  Just my 2 cents. 
    
    /Jim Pappas

< Note 204.34 by RGB::JIM "Jim Pappas" >


I had a Mini Ram Van (no rear seat version of Caravan/Voyager).  If they still 
have rain gutters, any of the standard roof racks will work.  I prefer 
Yakima.  I would strongly recommend NOT getting somthing that clamps to your 
existing roof luggage rack.  I cannot imagine it would be secure enough to 
hold a bike.  Not my bike, anyway.  Due to its shape (tall profile), a bike
will exert much more leverage on a rack.  Its ok to use ski racks that attach 
to luggage racks because skis don't exert as much leverage.

BTW, I'm 5'5", and drive an Isuzu Trooper II, and I put bikes, canoes, skis, 
etc on my Yakima roof rack all the time.  Of course I need a step stool and I 
stand on the window sills to get things arranged right.  And a Trooper (4wd) 
is much taller than a Caravan/Voyager.

Kevin

    RE: .34
    
    If you don't use the roof racks what do you use.
    
    Does plymouth make a mount for bikes either on the roof or on the
    back.
    

>    Does plymouth make a mount for bikes either on the roof or on the
>    back.
        
        Go to your Chrysler Corporation dealer and ask.  If they aren't
        helpful, get the phone number for Chrysler's "Direct Connection"
        and call them; they handle lots of after-market accessory sales.
        
        Tom

    Thule makes a rack with a high foot so it can clear factory/dealer
    installed racks.
    
    Dave

    Last year, I went to buy a rack to fit both my Dodge Caravan and my
    Dodge Shadow.  The Shadow does not have gutters so I would have
    to get the gutterless type.  I thought about the height of the Caravan
    and decided that it was un feasable to have a roof mounted carrier.
    
    .34 recommends using a step stool with a roof mounted rack but unless
    you take the stool with you, it only helps while in your own driveway.
    Usually when I travel, I dont have room for such a thing.
    
    I finally decided to get a rear mount bike carrier.  I bought the Rhode
    Gear because it seemed like the best available.  To tell the truth, I
    never used it yet.  All last year whenever I traveled with more than
    one bike, I was alway's in someone elses car.  My bike fits in the back
    of my Shadow with the rear seat folded down. 
    
    /Jim Pappas

    re .37	Yeah, ask for Lee, say Dr Tom sent you.
    
    	I get four bikes on the top of a Suburban, it has running boards
    (yeah, they look goofy, so what ?), but the trick is to just lift
    the bike up over my head and walk sort of into the driver's seat
    as if I'm climbing stairs (opening the door first, of course),
    similarly on the passenger's side.  Sure my balance is starting
    to go just as I get up there, that's when timing plays its role,
    just dump the bike into the channel and grab the rack with one hand,
    securing it is the other hand's job.  Getting it down is similar;
    just stand on a seat, hold onto the roof rack with one hand while
    unfastening the bike with the other, when everything is about to
    come off, grab the bike at about the mid fork and mid seat stay points,
    lean back (as if there's a choice at this point) and step down.
    
	Reg
    

    I can also carry 4 bikes on my Suburban.  I have found 2 approaches
    that work (both different from yours, Reg).
    
    	1. Carry a short aluminum stepladder.  Plenty of room for that
    in the Suburban.
    	2. Stand in the door opening and have wife support your back
    while reaching up and over. 
    
    		Both of these worked fine for me, even last year with
    #1 daughter's Free Spirit (massively heavy).  FWIW #1 daughter got
    smart and got rid of it!
    

    Anyone have any experience with, or comment on the Graber roof racks
    advertised in the Mailorder catalogs.  They look like a deal for
    2 bikes with wheelholders, but how's the quality?  
    
    Just thought I'd ask before I drop double the price on Thule's
    
    Thanks for any help
    
    JD

    RE: JD's Grabber racks
    My brother has Grabber racks on his VW Rabbitt, and I have THULE
    on my Mazda RX-7, so we can compare ...
    
    Grabber fits MOST cars, but not all. Grabber didn't fit the RX-7.
    Thule claims to fit all cars.
    
    Grabber locks (lock rack to car) stink; you can actually undo them
    with a little muscle. Thule has much better locks, that you can't
    force }iopen.
    
    Thule has a full line of accessories for the racks; Grabber has
    some, but not as much as Thule.
    
    Grabber holds the rear wheel (in fork mount model) with straps,
    which don't hold as securely as thule's rear wheel clamp.
    
    There are other things that are probably not significant, such as
    Thule mounts slightly more securely to car, holds bike (both fork
    mounts) to rack slightly more steady, just overall slightly better
    quality.
    
    BUT GRABBER IS CHEAP !!! I actually ordered the Grabber for my RX-7,
    but when it didn't fit, I had to cough up $$$ for the Thule. Even
    my brother with the Grabber has no doubt that Thule is better quality;
    it's just a matter of how much $$$ you have to dish out!
    
    Mark Reid
    

    My husband and I have the Thule rack system for our x-country skis.  We 
    would like to get racks for our bikes.  Thule seems to make three
    styles of racks - upright with all wheels on, upright with front wheel 
    off, and upside down.  Which style do you think is best and why?
    
    Carol

    re: -.1
    
    Part of the answer is dependent on the bicycles involved, and people
    size.  Some thoughts...
    
    If you have ATBs without quick release hubs, you will find the upright,
    both wheels on style best.  Thule changed their upright design last
    year (in my opinion for the worse).  The problem with Thule's design
    is that they didn't account for derailieur cables (the Yakima design
    is very thoughtful in this respect) on your bike.  With Thule you
    have to work hard to keep the cables from scratching your paint
    when you clamp the bike into jaw.  In general, the upright design
    is very convenient and quick.  If you are in the Worcester, MA area,
    you might check Fritz's Bike Shop in Boylston to see if he has good
    deals on used carriers.  A friend adapted Yakima GT carriers (their
    upright solution) to a rectangular crossbars similar to Thule. 
    With a little ingenuity it can be done.
    
    Another friend who is fairly short found the upside down style the
    best solution for solo operation.
    
    The upgright/front wheel off style may be the most stable design,
    and has the least possibility of damage to your bikes finish.  With
    this style you must be careful to make sure the fork mount is properly
    secured to your bike.  Another friend bent her front fork dropouts
    by not fully closing the lever.           

    I have the one where you take the front wheel off.  This means you
    carry the front wheel in the trunk.  I like this style the best,
    I think it's the most sturdy.
                         
    If convenience and luggage space is your primary concern I would
    choose upright with both wheels on.  
    
    Upside down with both wheels on looks like it would be difficult
    to get your bike on and off.  However, I've never tried this so
    I don't know.
    
    Whichever you choose, I'm sure you'll be satisfied.  There's another
    note in here which discusses the merits of Thule vs. Yakima.  The
    consensus seems to prefer Yakima, but Thule is still an excellent
    system.

    By the way, REI has Yakima racks on sale the first weekend in May
    - 20% off.
    

    After the races in Capron, Ill., this past week, I was returning home
    with the bikes securely mounted on my Yakima.  At some toll-stop in
    Chicago around 9pm Sunday, I threw my coins into the piggybank and,
    when the gate lifted, I proceded.  I noted the sound of wood hitting
    the pavement.  Apparently the gate's arm did not lift high enough and
    caught on either the arm of my rack (atop a Plymouth Voyager) or the
    locking cable.  The rack and bikes were unharmed.  Numerous cars were
    then noted to be coming through the toll without stopping to pay.
    
    ed

< Note 204.48 by NOVA::FISHER "Rdb/VMS Dinosaur" >
                      -< Yakima vs Chicago's toll gates. >-

>    After the races in Capron, Ill., this past week, I was returning home
>    with the bikes securely mounted on my Yakima.  At some toll-stop in
>    Chicago around 9pm Sunday, I threw my coins into the piggybank and,
>    when the gate lifted, I proceded.  I noted the sound of wood hitting
>    the pavement.  Apparently the gate's arm did not lift high enough and
>    caught on either the arm of my rack (atop a Plymouth Voyager) or the

Yeah... I steer to the right when exiting toll booths to try to avoid this 
problem.

Kevin

	
	For my fiance's birthday, I'm contemplating getting him 
	the Thule system where you take the front wheel off.  However, 
	does it also have a place where you can put the detached front 
	wheel?  He's got an Eagle Talon and there's barely enough room 
	for our luggage, much less two wheels.  Besides, he'd freak if 
	he ever got grease on his upholstery.

	By the way, he's already got the racks.  He just needs the bike
	attachment.

	Sue

    Hello to the other side of the bldg,
    
    You buy a wheel mount for the front wheel.  Then hte quick release
    clamps the wheel to the mount.  If you have cable locks you pass the
    cable through the wheel, else bungie the wheel to the rack -- just
    for insurance.
    
    ed

	...I shoulda just walked over and asked.

Does anyone know if it is possible to put Graber acessories on a Thule or
vice versa?  I need to be able to carry two adult bikes and one kid's bike for
now and can't really afford the $300+ that a all Thule system would cost. I
was thinking of getting a Thule rack (based on the assummption that it is
better quality), a couple of inverted-bike Thule carriers and a Graber
upright, but I didn't know if I would be able to adapt one to the other.
Anyone know about the adaptability or have first hand experience with the
Graber roof rack?

Thanks,
Paul

    re: -.1
    
    I don't know anything about Graber vs Thule, but (without trying to
    start a battle) if your ever considering new equipment take a close
    look at Yakima.  Last weekend my bike was on another persons car with
    Thule stuff, and it really made me appreciate the fact that I own
    Yakima.  Whats even better is that Yakima is make in the US, and its a
    superior product in my opinion.
    

Can you tell me where I might get prices for and find Yakima stuff?  I live
in New Hampshire.  I tried Directory Assistance for an 800 number for
Yakima last night without luck.

Paul

    
     O'neils in Worcester is having somewhat of a sail on Yakima racks.
    they are selling the the used Tour De Trump racks for like 20% off.
    I went in the other day and priced a rack with locks for two bikes
    and it came to about $235
    
    John C.
    

        This is my best cut at Thule vs. Yakima rack systems.

        While in Maine last week, I decided to break down an buy a
        roof top bike rack for my Dodge Caravan.  (I'm the guy who
        said a Caravan was too tall for roof racks in an earlier
        reply). I looked extensively at Thule and Yakima, and ended up
        buying a Thule.  I don't really want to start a religious
        battle here, because both systems are top quality.  I was
        hoping to buy the Yakima, since it is a domestic, but for my
        application the Thule was better.

        The primary reason I ended up with Thule was because I wanted
        the upright (wheels on) bike carrier.  My wife and I each have
        a Cannondale Mt bike, and I have a Cannondale road bike.  The
        down tubes on our bikes are 2".  The Thule is designed to fit
        up to 2" tubes and the Yakima is designed for 1.75" tubes.  I
        went back to the Yakima dealer 3 times to try the rack, but I
        finally convinced myself that it just was not stable enough. 
        I had considered getting the fork mount carriers, but decided
        against them.

        Yakima claims their racks are 15% stronger than the
        competition (which I assume is Thule).  I could believe that
        but it doesn't make too much difference since both Yakima and
        Thule claim their racks are much stronger than the cars they
        attach to.  My Thule system is rock solid.

        The Yakima ski attachments seemed nicer than the Thule since
        they hold 6 pairs of skis/rack.  The Thule only will hold 3
        pairs/rack.  You could fit 3 racks on the long Yakima bars for
        a total of 18 pairs of skis!

        The locks on Thule were much better. The upright bike carrier
        on the Yakima does not lock.  You need to use a cable which is
        a pain in the neck.  The Thule upright bike carrier locks the
        bike to the carrier, and also locks the carrier to the bars. 
        This is done with a single key.  All of the Thule keys are
        double cut so they work when inserted either way.  The Yakima
        keys are single cut (this makes a difference when it cold,
        snowing and dark).

        The new Thule upright bike carrier was nicer than the Yakima
        in my opinion.  The Thule wheel hold down clamps handle both
        mountain and road wheels without any adapters.  The Yakima
        requires an adapter to secure the road bike tires.  I think
        this is a problem if you carry both types of bikes, the
        adapter is certain to get lost.  The Thule wheel clamps also
        fold up and out of the way which means you do not have to
        fight with them when putting the bike onto the rack.  After
        you secure the down tube, you fold the wheel clamps over the
        rims and the straps ratchet down.  It is hard to explain but
        it really works very nicely.  The Yakima wheel straps flop
        over the wheel channel and get in the way when trying to get
        the bike into the rack.   Both Thule and Yakima have quick
        release down tube clamps but I liked the Yakima clamp better
        (other than the fact it does not fit the Cannondale tubes).

        Both Thule and Yakima claim the shape of their bars
        (rectangular vs round) are best.  I think it is a wash.  Both
        use cold rolled steel bars with a thick plastic coating.  As
        far as I could tell, only Thule galvanizes their steel (25
        microns inside and out) which an advantage.  I am not positive
        that Yakima omits this, but I could not find it mentioned in
        their literature.

        When up in Acadia, we noticed hundreds of cars (from all over
        the country) with roof mounted bike racks.  From my informal
        survey, I would estimate that Thule has about 80% of the
        market share.  I was surprised that it was so high.  Yakima
        was clearly the second most popular brand.

        Bottom line:  Both are really fine, and each have small
        advantages over each other.   Most of the differences are
        minor in my opinion. If I didn't have Cannondale, or if I
        wasn't set on the upright bike carriers, I would have had a
        tougher choice.
    

BTW,

For any of you with Thule racks and any interest in the luggage carrier
attachment,  LL Bean has the larger of the two attachements on sale.  It is
normally $55.00 and they have it $19.50.

I bought one while up at the store on Labor Day.  They have free shipping if 
you order by phone.

/Jim Pappas

    To add  a few points to Jim's note: I'm confused by your statement
    that Yakima keys are single cut. Mine is quite clearly double cut.
    I  bought  it  a  year or so ago, so they may have changed at some
    point.

    A really nice feature of the Yakima upright (with wheels on) clamp
    is that it has grooves for the gear cables. On a Thule, you should
    wrap  the  downtube  in  a rag that goes inside the cables, or the
    clamp  will  rub  the  cables against the down tube destroying the
    paint.  

    Another nice  feature  of the Yakima is that you can add or remove
    accesories without removing the rack from the car.

    I think  Jim's  right about the Yakima racks not being galvanized.
    When  the  end  cap  fell  off one of the rods I noticed some rust
    before I replaced the cap.

    I just  got  the  Yakima  Tandem  rack  (slightly modified) for my
    Counterpoint. It's considerably harder to use than the single bike
    mount.  (And that was testing it inside, when it's on the car over
    my head things should get really sporting.) The rack is a long (7'
    or  so) square steel bar. At one end is an axle to put the fork on
    (raised  6"  from  the bar), and there is a sliding piece 10" high
    that  supports  the  rear bottom bracket. It's a nicely made piece
    with  plastic  contacting  the  outside  of  the bottom bracket so
    nothing  rubs against the cables running under the bottow bracket.
    There's a tab on the back of the bottom bracket support. A plastic
    coated "T" drops between the chainstays and is screwed down to the
    tab  with a wing nut (and a spring). This is supposed to be enough
    support.  The  rack  attaches  to the crossbars with two screws at
    each cross bar, one on either side of the square bar.

    To use this, you first get the bottom bracket support in the right
    place  (with  tolerances  around  1/8")  and  then  put the bottom
    bracket on its support, then lower the fork onto the fork support.
    With the counterpoint's BMX style fork, this is a little tricky as
    the  fork extends below the wheel axle, and this extension gets in
    the  way while lowering the fork onto its support. We'll see if we
    find it easier with practice.

--David

    Thule has re-designed their upright carrier so it grabs the down tube
    from underneath and the clamps grip the down tube from the side.  The
    cables, on most bikes, don't get in the way.
    
    Dave

         RE: .-1  ULTRA::WITTENBERG "Uphill, Into the Wind"

 >   To add  a few points to Jim's note: I'm confused by your statement
 >   that Yakima keys are single cut. Mine is quite clearly double cut.
 >   I  bought  it  a  year or so ago, so they may have changed at some
 >   point.

        The keys I saw were single cut, although I cannot remember if
        they are for the rack itself or for some accessory.  The photo
        in the Yakima brochure clearly shows single cut keys.

 >   A really nice feature of the Yakima upright (with wheels on) clamp
 >   is that it has grooves for the gear cables. On a Thule, you should
 >   wrap  the  downtube  in  a rag that goes inside the cables, or the
 >   clamp  will  rub  the  cables against the down tube destroying the
 >   paint.

        Thule has a new upright bike carrier (I think model 549).  The
        clamp has groves for cables so that it will not scratch your
        paint.  

 >   Another nice  feature  of the Yakima is that you can add or remove
 >   accesories without removing the rack from the car.

        This is the same as Thule.  The bike rack for instance has "U"
        bolts with quick release levers.  The accessory clamps down on
        the rectangular bars and can be moved/removed by releasing the
        three quick release levers.  It is designed such that when the
        downtube arm is raised (and locked to the bike), the U bolts
        cannot be removed which in effect locks the carrier to the
        rack's crossbars.

        It was the new upright bike carrier (and it's ability to hold
        the Cannondale) which sold me on Thule.  It is a really nice
        design.

        /Jim Pappas

This past weekend my wife and I pulled into a place to stay around 11pm. We
were exhausted and forgot the bikes on the top of the car and didn't notice
that we were pulling into a low overhang. We heard the noise, stopped and
rushed out with a sinking feeling to find that no real damage had been done.
The seat of my bike had caught the overhang, but the since the Yakima bars
are round instead of square, the force just rotated the bike/rack attachments
back around the bar. This was enough for the bike to fit under the
overhang. If the attachments hadn't been able to rotate backwards I would've
seriously damaged my bike or the roof rack or the car.

Of course, if the overhang had been much lower it would have been a different
story, but in this case the round bars made a real difference.

Paul

PS. Given the money that these racks (Thule & Yakima), I suspect that anyone
who spends the money is going to be reasonably supportive of the brand
they bought (and the decision they made). I don't remember the technical
term for it but people usually end up favoring the brand that they bought
if for no other reason than to confirm their own cleverness at purchasing that
particular brand! 8-)

    RE: -1
    
    Same thing happened to me two weeks ago while on vacation in Wisconsin.
    I was backing into a garage and forgot for the moment what was on top
    of my van!!
    
    Fortunately, the Yakima bars rolled enough to cause no damage. 
    I don't think this is a feature Yakima was counting on.  I can't
    imagine the Yakima marketeers sitting around a table thinking of
    ways in which to help non-thinking types like me.......
    
    BTW, my lock keys are double-cut also.
                
    ricb

    After seeing  the recent discussion here, I've looked carefully at
    bike  racks  on cars I see on the road. I've seen various features
    on  Thule  and  Yakima,  so  it  may  be  that they change designs
    frequently, so check both brands at the time that you're buying.

    For me the decision is simple, the adaptor for a Counterpoint Opus
    is ony available on Yakima.

--David

    I owned Thule, and sold it...
    I now own Yakima.  This should tell you where my bias lies.
    
    Some rambling thoughts...
    
    The upright Thule racks have gone through quite an evolution.  Their
    original upright bicycle carrier clamped the downtube much like the
    Yakima GT carrier, but it didn't allow for deraileur cables (makes you
    wonder if the Thule engineers actually ever use their own equipment).
    It also had problems with fat tires where an adapter for the channel
    was required.  The tire tie-downs did flip out of the way, but the fact
    they were based on a screw thread for tightening meant they were very
    slow to use.  I still prefer Yakima's wheel tie down, and find them
    flexible enough that they don't impede my putting the bike on the rack. 
    Positioning the rack on the crossbars was difficult because the bike
    carrier was "indexed" and would only allow connection at discrete
    positions.  Thule's second generation design was even worse.  It has
    all the bad features from the first generation design, plus an even
    more awkward downtube clamp.  Not only are your cables in the way, but
    your water bottle rack is also in the way.  Both first and second
    generation designs used materials which wasn't up to the quality of
    Yakima.  As has been mentioned, the third generation design is quite
    different.  Its quite an improvement over its predecessors.  In many
    ways its similar to Yakima.
    
    Some other observations:
    
    In general I've found Thule's use of U bolts awkward and slow compared
    to Yakima's nearly universal use of snap-arounds with one large
    wingnut.  There is a sense of symmetry and parts interchangability
    around Yakima's use of snap-arounds, where the method of attaching a
    Thule accesory is very device dependent  (some require taking the
    crossbars apart).
    
    The design of Yakima's tower for gutterless cars is very slick.  A one
    piece molded nylon body with a cam which locks the towers onto the bars
    which is independent of the mechanism which tightens the clips on the
    door frame.  The tower foot pads are fairly gentle on the car's finish.
    My car still has the marks left behind from the black pads used on 
    Thule's gutterless towers.  The Thule gutterless towers are inelegant
    in comparison (use of multiple pieces, bent and crimped metal parts).
    
    I don't know which bars are stronger: round or rectangular.  I do know
    that my Thule crossbars started to bow a slight amount.  I've noticed
    the same slight effect on some other Thule racks I've seen on the road.
    My Yakima crossbars are very solid with no hint of fatigue.
    
    My Yakima system uses double sided keys- I think the catalog uses very
    old photographs.
    
    My last area of discussion is very subjective- esthetics.  To me, the
    Yakima products appear to be a very well thought threw "system".
    Basically, the Thule system has the same functionality, but the
    implementation comes across as a kludge.  In an exaggerated way it
    seems like the difference between Bahaus (form follows function) design
    and a Rube Goldberg creation.  But then again, my feeling about this
    aren't strong at all.  :-)

    RE: -1

    I pretty much agree with all of your comments.  I think Yakima is a
    first rate system.

    >In general I've found Thule's use of U bolts awkward and slow compared
    >to Yakima's nearly universal use of snap-arounds with one large
    >wingnut.  There is a sense of symmetry and parts interchangability
    >around Yakima's use of snap-arounds, where the method of attaching a
    >Thule accesory is very device dependent  (some require taking the
    >crossbars apart).

    This is true, but remember that Thule accessories have been evolving
    over a long time.  Accessories purchased 15 years ago (or whenever
    Thule started selling) still work with today's bars.  Yakima system is
    very consistent and slick, but they have  been around for less time
    than Thule.  If you look at Thule's latest generation accessories, they
    generally attach quickly and easily, often with quick disconnects.  One
    disadvantage of the Yakima snap around system is that the accessories
    do not lock to the bars.  This requires the use of a cable to lock down
    your stuff.
   
    Also, if you look [only] at Thule's latest generation components, you
    will see that they are very well designed.  The latest upright carrier
    for instance does not require any adapters for mountain or road bikes. 
    As you say, the older Thule upright bike carrier was a poor design, 
    Yakima, when it hit the market, was clearly better, then Thule came out
    with their current system, which I think is the best available, 
    Yakima's next generation will be better still, ...   The wonders of
    competition.

    I have to agree with you on Yakima's system elegance.  It is a well
    thought our system (except for the necessity for the cable lock). 
    Maybe Yakima will come out with snap-around locks as part of their next
    generation.

    Bottom line:  I find it hard to believe that you can go wrong with
    either system.

    /Jim Pappas
                

    
    I want to get a roof carrier for my bikes. I own a 1989 Mazda 626. I
    was leaning towards Yakima but a few weeks ago noticed the same style
    car in the ACO parking lot and I wasn't the least impressed at how the
    tower sat on the roof. The towers did not sit flat on the roof; about
    50% of the pad was not touching the roof line where it slants towards
    the door. 
    
    Is this the best fit for a Mazda 626 with a Yakima? If so I think
    I'll look at the Thule. Does the person who owns that car read this
    conference? If so I'd like to hear his/her comments.

    I am looking at both Thule and Yakima and was told that the Yakima
    actually is at a curve so that it will fit properly on sloped roof
    lines so I am surprised at your comment.
    Just FYI - I like the Yakima because there is a model that allows
    you to (with an adapter piece) use it on cars with and without rain
    gutters. 
    Just my two cents.
    nancy

    Hello,
    
    		That must of been my car. did it have a sign on that said 
    pro-bike. If it did it was mine. I had to set it up that way. One day I
    drove my car with my bike on it onto a low roof. and bent the stuff up.
    I have had no problem with it. But I can't find a dealler around that
    sells that stuff local. I do alot of bike racing and I see about 75% of
    the people use Thule bike rack.
    
    
    I hope this help you out.
    Mike

    Any Taurus (sedan) owners out there? What do you use for a rack, and
    how do  you like (or dislike) it?
    On the trunk mounted units - are they really so bad? What are the
    major drawbacks with these? They are usually far less expensive than
    the roof mounted ones, yet I see far less of these than the roof
    mounted units.
    I'm not interested in something to hold skis, or a boat, or anything
    but a pair of bikes (maybe 3). Will a trunk mount do the trick, and
    not damage the car or bikes under normal conditions?
    
    Thanks,
    John

RE: .69

    I don't  know  where you are, but there are several dealers around
    greater  Maynard  who  sell Yakima. The ones I'm sure carry it are
    Belmont  Wheelworks,  Lincoln  Guide  Service,  and REI. I haven't
    asked  anywere  else.  For mail order, check Colorado Cyclist. I'm
    sure  one  of  the  mail  order  companies carries it, but I'm not
    certain which one.

--David

    
    	One thing to keep in mind. The largest boot-mounted (I refuse point
    blank to call it a trunk :) ) bike rack that I've seen can only take 2
    bikes. If you want to be able to take a 3rd bike, it'll have to be roof
    mounted.
    
    Graham.
    

    Some of the "trunk" racks I've seen can accomodate two bikes...just
    barely, i.e. if the bikes aren't positioned just right they may
    inadvertently get scratched in you hit a bump the wrong way.
    The roof racks seem to provide more stability for the bicycle than
    a trunk rack.

We purchased the Yakima system since we could use it on both cars, only having
to buy an extra set (2 pairs) of clips. One of the cars has a rain gutter, and
the other did not. The Thule system would have required the purchase of two
complete racks; the choice about shich one was a no-brainer. I had talked to 
others about the racks before we bought the Yakima, many of whom had decided 
on the Yakima system for the same reason we did. 

When I assembled the rack, I was very impressed with the design and materials. 
I have since looked at the Thule system, and was not impressed. Interestingly, 
they both looked the same when I was getting ready to buy. Before the Thule
system people start flaming, let me state that the two systems will probably
have the same lifetime under comparable conditions. Flexibilty was the final
distinction between the two. 

    
    	As far as needing two Thule's for two cars, that's not my
    	situation.  I bought a Thule for my wife's '89 Maxima.  When it
    	came time to get a rack for my '90 Pathfinder, the Thule catalog
    	said I needed a different 'bar' (only difference was length).
    	I was able to use the same bar, but only had to purchase a foot
    	kit for ~%25.  
    
    	When I purchased the bar, I did compare the Yakima to the Thule.
    	I didn't like the round bar on the Yakima, and (my opinion ONLY)
    	the method of attaching the bar to the feet looks flimsy.  Now
    	I admit I didn't look at it with great scrutiny, but that was 
    	my opinion.
    
    	I can't compare the fit of the Yakima vs. the Thule, but I can tell
    	you the fit of the Thule is rock-solid on either of our vehicles.
    
    	Price of the rack, to me, wasn't a factor.  If I'm going to have
    	$600 to $1000 worth of equipment on top of my vehicle (bikes or
    	skis), I want to make sure it stays there.  
    
    							Jim

RE: .76

  Jim, what you said basically sums up my feelings on the subject. I
own a VW Golf with a Thule (rain gutter attachment) and when it's on
my car, it's just like being part of the car itself!

  When my bike is hooked up, if I grab the seat tube and try to move
the bike the whole car moves with it... I also didn't like the Yakima
round bar and how some of the attachments hooked up. When I put my
bike and ski's on the car *I* feel/know they are safe and IMHO, the
bottom line is that's what counts when getting a rack.

					My 2�... -Craig

    We've found  the Yakima round bar to be a useful feature. In order
    to get the bars far enough apart on an old Honda, the supports end
    up  so  far back that the rain gutters are no longer level. With a
    round  bar  this  is  no  problem, but with square bars, the racks
    would not attach squarely.

    I do recommend the grab the bike and try to shake the car test for
    any  rack. That's my final check every time we load the bikes, and
    I repeat it at each stop if we're driving a long distance.

--David

    RE: .67
    
    I have a Mazda 626 and have been quite satisfied with my Thule roof
    rack. I have a pair of Thule upright (keepa u wheels on) bike carriers
    on it.

    re .70:
    
    The three Taurus sedans I know of here in MPO all have Yakima racks on
    them (including mine).  I looked at both Yakima and Thule, read all the
    notes in here about both and decided from comments here that the Yakima
    quality was better.  The price difference between the two with two bike
    mounts was about $100 (Yakima being cheaper).  And, as far as solidity,
    it feels like part of the car.  I carry two bikes and my own version of
    the Rocket Box with at least 60 pounds of camping gear and it is
    absolutey solid.
    
    I'm sure the Thule would have worked just as well.
    
    The one thing I"ve noticed is that I have to use a spoiler on the rack
    to prevent a loud moaning noise from the rack at any speed over 40 mph. 
    But, on the good side I cut out my own spoiler for less than $10 from a
    2' X 4' plexiglass sheet.
    
    We have a Saab in the parking lot with a Thule on it if that helps.

    Greetings,
    
    I wrestled with the options and bought a ROLA roof rack. I have
    a DEC Ford Taurus and its wonderful. It looks perfect with the
    car. Admittedly this same thing won't look as good on other cars
    without the cannels that the Ford has. But the other ones look soooooo
    awful! They look like (in my opinion) someone put a truss-type bridge
    on the top of a car. The ROLA is somewhat pricey but then which one
    isn't. Its available from NASHBAR.
    
    Fred Mudgett

    
    Well maybe somebody in this notesfile can help me out. I'm
    just getting started with bikes and I'm looking for a rear mount
    bike carrier for my car. Problem has been finding one to fit my
    86 Honda Accord Hatchback. There aren't too many solid points towards
    the bottom of the car. I've tried Rhode Gear, No go, and some cheaper
    models like ProAction that I've almost got to hold using Carabiners
    attached to the metal tow points under the car.
    
    Does anybody have any suggestions? Anybody have an Accord hatchback
    with a solution? 
    
    I've been told that the Graber Mountaineer might work.
    
    mike
    
    p.s. As far as roof racks go, Yakima is a "no fit" and Thule
    needs all sorts of extra roof extenders and stuff, estimated
    price of $300-$400 for 2 bikes!! Ouch.

    My wife  has  a  1981  Honda Accord (4 door) and the Yakima gutter
    mount  fits fine. I don't know what changes took place between the
    81 models and the 86 models though.

--David

    
    Well, a friend here at work loaned me the Graber mountaineer, and
    it fits! It also is able to carry both bikes I need to tote around.
    Looks like the problem is solved. Now, just to find a place that
    has this carrier. Nashbar is backordered 3 weeks. 
    
    mike

    Try Landry's on Rt. 9 in Westboro. They had several to choose from and
    I recall seeing something from Graber.
    
    Al

    Yakima has recently added a new twist to the great Yakima vs Thule
    debate - Yakima "Snap-Arounds" to fit Thule bars.  With these you can
    use Yakima accessories on Thule load bars.  They are making two
    varieties; one type fits bike racks, and the other style fits ski rack
    attachments.  Not all Yakima attachments will work with these
    snap-arounds.  For example, the fork mount bike rack doesn't use a
    snap-around at the fork end, so this won't work.
    
    Now you can buy the rack which fits best (in some isolated and rare
    cases, Thule does seem to work better for some cars), and the best
    add-ons (almost all Yakima accessories are superior to their Thule
    equivalents :-)).
    
    BTW- About 2 years ago someone showed an article in some Unix rag about
    this small company in California making extensive use of CAD, Solids
    Modeling and FEM in the design of their products.  It was Yakima.
    Unfortunately they have a small LAN of Sun workstations :-(
    Is there a DEC sales rep who calls on Yakima?

    Are there any well known sporty cars which cannot accommodate a roof
    rack?  I've been told that Thule, Yakima,etc. make racks to fit
    anything but I rarely see them on sporty liftbacks with short, rounded
    roofs.  The specific models I'm thinking of are the Mitsubishi Eclipse,
    Mazda MX3, Geo Storm and Volkswagen Corrado.
    
    Darnley

    Ask the  rack  dealers  and the car dealers (in that order). There
    are  lots  of  different  adapters for good racks, and one of them
    might  work  for  you.  I  think the Yakima has the advantage here
    because  of  the  round  tubes  which allow the rack to mounted on
    parts of the rain gutter which aren't horizontal.

    Some car  companies sell roof racks which you could mount the bike
    mounts to.

    One problem  is  that  it  is likely that the back end of the bike
    rack would interfere with raising the lift-back.

--David

    Remember that you'll probably want to buy accessories (new carriers,
    new car fittings, etc.) later, so make sure yours has good parts
    availability in your area.  Thule is widely available on the east
    coast.  Yakima is widely available on the west coast.  Others have poor
    availability anywhere.
    
    Yes, some car manufacturers are selling racks for their cars.  These
    are mostly overpriced, of poor quality, and have poor
    interchangeability with other cars.  That's a pretty broad
    generalizaiton, though, so you may want to check out individual models.
    
    Ken
    

    
    As mentioned before on a small car the bike rack will interfere with
    the rear hatch.
      I installed a Yakima for a friend on her Honda Civic CRX.  The rear
    hatch could only be lifted a few inches and the front tire of the bike
    slightly obstructed the view out the windshield.  Good thing she did
    not own a tandem.
    
    						Norm
    
     

    There are models that will fit onto trailer hitches (inexpensive
    compared to stuff like Yakima's) that fold down if you need to
    get into the back. There are also carriers for the front of the vehicle
    that do not interfere with anything. Granted, they are not solutions
    if someone want, to toss it on the roof...
    
      Chip

	My husband has got an Eagle Talon (basically the same as the Eclipse)
	and has Thule racks on them.  I don't think the bike accessory inter-
	feres w/the hatch, at least not much.  When we put skis on the roof,
	however, we can only lift the hatch a foot or two.

	Sue

    
    
    I have a Yakima rack that I have taken off my Mazda and I am about to
    put on my new Honda. The rack (an SST) left four ground-in-dirt pad
    marks on my Mazda. If you've put a rack on your car, you know what 
    I mean (dirt/grime gets up under the pad and ground into the finish
    on your car). Once on, I don't plan on taking the rack off for a LONG
    time. Anyway, the instructions that come with the Y clips suggests
    putting tape on the car where the SST mounts will sit to prevent this 
    from happening. My question is: What kind of tape?. I want something
    that comes off , doesn't leave a mess that is not easily cleaned, 
    and doesn't mar the finish. 
    
    
    doug
    
    

RE: <<< Note 204.93 by MIMS::HOOD_R >>>

Why leave the rack on forever? It only takes about 45 seconds to attach my
Yakima rack to our car, and by not having it on all the time it doesn't get
rusty and bug-covered.
						-- Tom

    
    Believe me, I would rather not have the rack as a permanent fixture.
    It destroys the look of the car. Unfortunately (fortunately?),
    I use it four times a week, year round.  If I take it off, I have 
    to store it. I live in a condo, and the space is just not there 
    (what, with three bikes, a wife, a baby and a dog...). I don't have time 
    after work to commute home, put on the rack go riding and take it off, 
    or time in the morning to put it on before work... and so on.... and 
    so forth. I often put my bike on the car in the morning (7:00 am) and 
    go riding on the way home from work, so the bike and rack sit on my car 
    all day once or twice a week anyway. Further, It would STILL require that 
    the roof contact points be clean before putting on the rack or the same 
    thing would happen. Anyway, I got a suggestion from over in CARBUFFS to use 
    striping tape . I am going to see if I can find some the same color as 
    my car and give it a try. I am interested in seeing if anyone in this 
    file has tried this and what they tried. 
    
    
    doug
    

    Boy, my head is spinning.  I have a new Diamondback mtn bike (won
    at raffle) and want to start into biking.  I'm set for a couple hour
    course in Groton for "beginners" but need to get out on this bike a
    bit first.  So I say, "I need a rack to get this thing out of Lowell
    to "nice" places to ride".  I think, "I'll just go into the BICYCLE
    file and find some good ideas and price breaks".
    
    HA!  I just read 57 of the 95 notes in here and I think I'm trying
    to understand Latin!  I thought I'd just walk into a LECHMERE or 
    something and buy a rack.  What a rude awakening this all is....
    
    Ok, so please help me out.   I know I want a rear mounting rack
    because I'm a wimpy thing that has a hard enough time carrying my
    bike down the three flights of stairs from my apartment - let alone
    lifting it up over my towering height of 5'4" onto a roof rack.
    
    I have a Pontiac Sunbird with one of those "built in" kind of useless
    luggage racks.  Am I going to have difficulty getting a rack on that?
    Can I get something that locks?  Is this going to cost me a fortune?
    
    Now is the time for me to start spending money on it (I mean, what the
    hell, the bike was free!), but I'm kind of limited on spending money.
    Can you give a price range that I will be looking at?
    
    Of course, now I've got to research helmets.  Please tell me that will
    be a lot less confusing (and that this will all be worth it :-) :-) :-)
    
    						cj *->

    
    CJ, before you purchase the rack go buy a helmet! I 'm sure me and
    99% of other riders will tell you this.  The only times that I don't
    were a helmet is when I'm off road on some nice country trail.
    
    As for racks go, for trunk mount expect to pay anywhere from $45.00
    to $100.00 for one that locks. I would guess that most probably 
    you will need to remove you laugage rack but wait till you try
    some brands just incase you can work around it. 
    
    Your best bet is to go to a good bike shop in your area and check out
    some brands and types. Once you have an idea what the different brands
    offer and cost, it will make it easier to go through the used rack
    adds in here and the papers.
    
    Shaw

    I'd have to go out and check, but I suspect that luggage rack
    is not removable.  It's not one I installed, it came on the
    car.
    					cj *->

    Those luggage racks can be a bummer.  A buddy of mine has
    a TREK(3-Bike) trunk-mounted rack.  He has a Mustang w/the
    luggage rack.  The slats on the trunk cause a problem.  
    
    The pads on the bracket that cushion the contact points aren't
    hefty enough to lift the rack above the height of the slats.
    That makes the rack tilt.  He keeps his eyes out for thicker pads
    so that he can upgrade the rack, but for $90, he should have
    been able to find something...
    
    
    r�   

    I was in a rush this morning and didn't have time to put the 
    thule roof rack on the car so I took off the front
    bicycle wheel and put my bicycle in the back seat of my car.  The
    bicycle is positioned upsidedown so that it is resting on the seat.
    (The bicycle seat is resting on the car seat.)
    
    Would this damage the bicycle in any way shape or form?
    
    I have a difficult time holding my bicycle over my head - so 
    the roof rack isn't my first choice.  I am thinking of 
    buying a trunk rack.  From a security perspective, what would
    make the most sense and provide the most stability for my
    bicycle?     
    
    I have read most of the notes in this notesfile.   One of the earlier 
    ones (from 1987) said I could get a decent rack for $15.   ;^)
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy                            

    Nancy,
    
    
    I use a trunk mount rack.  However, if security or weather
    is in question, I remove the wheels and slide it into the trunk
    on a blanket (I have a VW Fox).
    
    Putting it upside down on the back seat shouldn't harm the bike,
    but you can REALLY do a number on the interior of you car with
    the chainrings.
    
    r�

re: .100

Why do you take the Thule rack off the car?  I got a Yakima roof rack this
Spring and will keep it on the car until the end of October.

Bob

    I only put a rack on the car if the car is full of people, otherwise it/they
    go in the boot (trunk).  This means more wear and tear on the car (I
    suppose - but I'm not in hurry to sell it) this way I'm guaranteed that the
    bike will still be in the car after work (whether the car is still there
    is, of course another matter).
    
    I mean, which is more important to you, your car or your bike ? (:-)

    Re: 103
    
    Heirarchy of importance:
    1. Bicycle
    2. Car
    
    Re: 102 - I took the rack off because my car spent a week at the
    "Park and Fly" parking lot outside of Logan Airport.
    
    nmp

    one way that damage can occur to the bike with the upside down
    resting on its saddle, is if there is some object which can
    rub against the saddle and if it rubs for HUNDREDS of miles.
    It might wear a hole or something.
    
    ed

>    Heirarchy of importance:
>    1. Bicycle
>    2. Car
 
ditto; actually, my bike is probably worth more $ than my car (seriously)

>    I have read most of the notes in this notesfile.   One of the earlier
>    ones (from 1987) said I could get a decent rack for $15.   ;^)

it depends on how you define "decent"; i now use a Thule roof rack that I
picked up in the WantAds; before that i used a rear rack that only cost me $20
new (in 1991); i stopped using it because i got sick of taking it on and off to
use it, and i was always nervous that i was going to be driving down the
highway and have the bike and rack fly off of the car; the bike is a lot more
secure and in place in my roof rack

- rich

    I've used the Rhode Gear rear rack now for several years, and am quite
    content with it. A year or so ago they made a minor modification which
    keeps the pedal (or any other part of the bike) from rubbing against
    the car, so I think it's an even better deal.
    
    Aside from your problem of upper body strength to hoist a bike onto a
    roof rack, I've always thought it better to have the car blocking the
    wind/road crap from hitting the bike. Having it on the roof gives me
    visions of sand-blasting it. I've never had a concern about either the
    bike or the rack falling from the vehicle (assuming both are installed
    properly), and I've travelled many hundreds of miles at freeway speeds
    with it attached.
    
    They ain't cheap (I think between $50-$100), but you get what you pay
    for. I'd buy another in a second if I needed it.
    
    	/Harry

    RE taking your rack off the car.
    
    An empty roof rack adds about 10% to your fuel consumption

re: .108

I don't know if it's that much or not.  Now that I'm running the A/C all the
time, my mileage has dropped from ~23 MPG to ~21 MPG.  That's just about the
same drop as I got last summer.  I suspect I'm losing ~.5 MPG due to the rack.
The increased wind noise bothers me more than the < $1.00/week increase in
fuel costs.

Bob

    Re: 107, Which model of the Rhode Gear rack do you have?  I was looking
    in the Nashbar catalog and noticed three or four different models.
    
    I noticed alittle grease on my car's backseat (from my bicycle) so 
    I may just get a trunk rack.  I could always lock my bicycle to the 
    tow loop thingie located on my car's under-carriage.
    
    Thanks for the comments.
    nancy  

    
    
    
    >> -< What works for grease stains? >-
    
    Carpet Science (??). It took 6 month old (non-trivial) grease stains out 
    of my dining room carpet with very little effort. I was amazed!
    
    

    I have both a Yakima roof rack and the Rhode Gear trunk mount...  
    
    When I was working downtown and putting the car in an underground
    garage I used the trunk rack because I couldn't fit the car in the
    garage with the bike on the roof.  BUT, my preference is to put the
    bike(s) on the roof.  I have Yakima B-strings for both bikes and they
    do a great job of keeping grit, stones, bugs, and whatever from getting
    on the bikes.  In fact, with the covers, the bikes stay cleaner on the
    roof than on the trunk.  
    
    I will not carry 2 bikes on my trunk rack.  I have NEVER been able to
    do so for any length of time without getting damage to one or the other
    bike no matter how careful I am, or how much padding and covering I do. 
    On the roof nothing hits so no damage.  
    
    Even more importantly, when coming home the other day with the bikes on
    the roof, I was struck in the rear at a stoplight by another car.  No
    damage to the car, BUT I could imagine what things would have looked
    like had there been a bike or two being used as my rear bumper!  
    
    BTW:  My Yakima rack went on 3 years ago - the only time it's been off
    was when the car went through the carwash.  At the end of summer I add
    the ski carriers.  When carrying camping junk I put the box on one
    side.  In either case I can carry 2 bikes and other stuff in comfort
    and safety.  
    
    I ALSO hated the wind noise so I made a deflector from plexiglass and
    attached it to the front bar - much reduced wind noise.  Cost about $12
    total!

re.-1

Good idea to make your own fairing....   I think that both Yakima and Thule
charge upwards of $50 for just a black piece of plastic that clamps onto
the front towers to deflect the wind...

I always take the Thule off of my car when I don't plan on carrying the
bikes (one bike fits inside the car for short trips).   I've found that
even with a borrowed fairing, the noise level inside was terrible when
I opened the moon-roof.

One question for those folks that never remove their racks...  Have any of your
experienced any problems with the feet messing up the finish or your car.  It 
seems to me that after a few days of driving, some road grit ends up between the
feet and the car no matter how tight your torque it down.  I invariably have 
outlines of the feet on my roof when I pull the rack.  My first assumption was 
that the area under the feet was cleaner than the rest of the car hence the 
outlines.

Surprise, it actually turns out that the outline is a line of hard packed
dirt some of which has pushed itself slightly under the feet.

/ron

    RE: .110
    
    I'll check one of my catalogs tonight and get the model number of
    that Rhode Gear rack; also, Rhode Gear sells this little security
    cable doo-dad to lock your bike (and the rack) to the car. It's a
    length of relatively thick wire cable with two big hard plastic
    balls on the ends. You loop it around the bike/rack and shut the
    two balls inside the trunk or hatchback.
    
    I just use a Kryptonite cable-style lock when the bike is going to
    be on there for any length of time or left unattended in public.
    
    As for the comments about wear on two bikes, I've carried multiples
    on mine a number of times without any significant problems. I've
    still got it in my mind that the sandblasting from the wind up there
    on the roof is more of a problem than the minor friction on the back.
    
    To each his own....
    
    	/Harry

    Okay, the one I'm thinking of is the "Rhode Gear Super Cycle Shuttle",
    and it lists in the Performance catalog for $89.95.
    
    	/Harry

    
    I'm in the market for a bike rack for my '90 Nissan Pathfinder. I dislike
    the idea of having to load my bike on a roof rack (and I'm 6'3") because
    the vehicle sits so high. Other factors are cost, and the fact that a 2
    bike rack should suit me fine. That said, I am thinking about purchasing
    the type of rack that bolts to the spare tire (which in my case, swings
    out of the way for access to the rear door). Any comments on these?
    
    There seems to be at least two brands in the Nashbar/Performance catalog. My
    choice seems to be limited by the width of the spare tire (10.5").  It
    appears that the Rhode Gear is one of the few (only?) racks that mount
    to such a wide tire. Any experiences with this rack? Other comments?
    
    Thanks,
    Charlie
           

    I've heard them referred to as "not sturdy" but then I'm the kind of
    guy who uses concrete to secure a mailbox post, 20 spikes to hang
    a ladder on a wall (when 2 will do), etc. ...
    
    ed

     I'd opt away from the rack if I were you. I've got a pick-up with a
     cap now (not very comfortable with the security, but...). I used to
     have a Bronco II and just loaded into the back. I loved the secure 
     feeling that unless they could get the rear lift open it would be
     just about impossible to drag it out the front doors.
    
     Also, it's out of the elements.
    
     I don't know what your additional carry needs are, but given the
     Pathfinder is a similar vehicle I'm assuming you have the room.
    
     Just a suggestion...
    
     Chip

    
    re: .117  Ed, point taken...The Rhode Gear is the first rack of this
              type I've seem that has additional bracing and looks much
              better than others I've seen. Maybe I can use concrete and
              nails if it isn't sturdy enough :^)
    
    re: .118  Chip, the rack will be used mainly for mountain bikes,
              (can you say "muddy interior"...I know you can...) and for the
              occasional family trip (wife and 1 toddler). Two bikes will eat
              into  cargo space (can't fold down both halves of rear seat with 
              little one in back seat, not to mention all that "kiddy cargo".
              I agree that whenever possible, loading in the truck is the way
              to go...especially with the road  bike. Thanks and keep'em coming.
    
    
     /Charlie
                                                                

I have a Rhode Gear Euro Shuttle that I use when the wife and I are going to a
race or ride thats far enough that we only want to take one car.

I find the rack to work well, be plenty sturdy (No problem at 80 on the wifes
car).

While the euro shuttle is a different system than what you are talking about I
believe that their products are well designed.

I don't ever leave my car with the bikes on the rack.  When its just one of us
then the bike goes in the car.

One issue that I do have is that the rack itself has no lock and could easily be
removed.  Hopefully no-one will decide to walk away with the rack itself as this
is not cheap either (but alot cheaper than the bikes).

Scott

    Isn't getting into the rear of your Pathfinder gonna be a problem when
    the bikes are mounted on the rack? (The Pathfinder rear door swings up,
    correct?). My suggestion would be to rethink the roof rack (though as
    you mention, price _is_ a concern). I use a Thule rack on my 88 4Runner,
    and cart 4 mountain bikes up there. Yeah, it's a bit of a stretch (I'm
    5'10"), but I usually carry a small bench to stand on. It _does_ beat
    the hell out of my gas mileage, but I know the bikes are secure.

    -Dom

    Sounds like an extended cab [for the kid] pickup [for keeping dirt and
    humans separate] with cap [for security, weather protection, doesn't
    kill fuel mileage] is better suited to your requirements than the
    Pathfinder, not to mention that a pickup probably would have been at
    least $5k cheaper.  However, while more useful, a pickup isn't nearly
    as yuppyish, and isn't that what driving a Pathfinder/Explorer/Blazer/etc
    is all about?  ;-)
    .02 kb
    

    
    
    re: 121  The spare is mounted on a gate that swings off to the side to 
             allow access to the hatch of the Pathfinder (which does swing up).
             That is one of the reasons I like this style of rack. The bikes
             would swing out of the way. Never really thought about the gas
             mileage issue with the roof rack. The rear mounted rack is a plus
             here too...but limited to 2 bikes.
    
    
    re: 122  I'm in the market for a bike rack, not a vehicle thank you :^).
             Not to start (or finish) a debate on the merits of a Pathfinder
             or Nissan extended cab pickup truck, but I have owned both. As a
             matter of fact I paid much less (like about $5K!) for my Pathfinder
             because I bought it used, at the right price. I do at times, miss 
             the pickup truck, when wanting to haul large (furniture) or dirty
             (leaves!) cargo. However, I couldn't think about putting 4 (or 5)
             adults in the pickup, (in the heated cab that is :^), as I do
             transport more than just the wife and daughter at times. Hell, I
             had the pickup drivers seat so far back, nobody could sit behind
             me! Each has their pros and cons. Oh BTW, the pickup got about 3
             MPG *less* than the Pathfinder (Both SE V6's) due to the truck
             being geared lower...kb, please E-mail any additional comments or 
             questions regarding this subject directly to me at CHIPS::, as
             this is really not the proper place...Any BIKE RACK comments? 
    
        Yuppyish and 5K Richer :^)
    
         /Charlie 
          
                            

    I have a bike rack that mounts on the rear spare tire. I'm looking
    at getting a roof rack for the bikes because there are a few things
    thatbother me. 1) With the bikes on the rack I can't fully swing the 
    rear gate far enough to open the rear without the bkes hitting the jeep
    2) I'd really hate to get rear ended with my bikes back there 3)
    there's sometimes clearance problems with steep grades because the
    bikes hang so far from the vehicle.
    
    Chris

    
    re. -.1
    
      Chris, what make of rack and model Jeep do you have? I appreciate your
    feedback, and I was also worried about being hit. I've heard from two
    people, with 2 different brand tire bike racks on their Pathfinders, and
    they both love them. No problems opening the gate or hatch, and no ground
    clearance problems. I don't like the idea of bikes being used as a rear
    bumper either but if someone rear ends me, chances are, replacing my (NOT
    Ultra expensive or custom) bikes is going to be their (insurance) problem.
    It's my backing up into something that would be my problem :^). However,
    IMHO, if *I* had a roof rack system, (with the bikes out of sight) I think
    the chances of damage by pulling into my garage, a drive-thru with low 
    clearance (money machine or food), etc. are much greater.  :^0  
    
    Thanks,
    Charlie
                                                  

    I think the rack is an Allen, it slips over and attaches to the spare
    on the Wrangler. The back door/spare of the Wrangler is one unit and
    it swings open toward the passenger side. Whenever I need to get into
    the back I have to take the bikes off before opening the rear door.
    Also another problem is that the gas cap is behind the bikes when
    loaded making it difficult to put gas in, this shouldn't be a problem
    with the Nissan however.

     If you are looking for a roof rack, I would recommend either Thule or
     Yakama. Both systems are very popular and most shops carrier them and
     their accessories. I know you might find a Grabber or Baracrafter unisport
     system a little less expensive but it's thougher to find a shop to carrier
     all their accessories.

     I have had my Thule for over 7 years and I leave it on my car all winter
     and most of the summer. I have not notice any damage to the paint job on
     the roof of either car that the unit was mounter on.

     Just so you won't be sticker shock. Be expected to pay $275 for a full 
     Thule system with 2 bike carrier and locks. But it's well worth the
     investment.





 

    Re: .124

    If you're looking for a recommendation, I'll second the one made for the
    Thule. As mentioned a few notes back I've got one and haul 4 mountain
    bikes on my 4Runner. When I was shopping for a rack, I looked at both
    Thule and Yakima, and decided on the Thule since I liked the mounting 
    system better. As the previous reply mentioned, it _is_ a bit pricey.
    Mine was over the $500 range, which at the time exceeded the cost of
    the fleet of Huffys I was carting around. :-) Now that we're carrying
    Univegas, the bikes exceed the cost of the rack. The main thing I like
    about it is the confidence I have knowing the bikes are safe up there
    and aren't going anywhere.

    Their mounting system is well designed, it takes less than a half hour
    to install in the spring, and I usually remove it in the late fall. To
    me, it was well worth the money.

    -Dom

    
    Last summer I ordered a rack from the Nashbar catalog.  A special ball
    bolts into the trailer hitch on my Explorer.  I have transported 3 mtn
    bikes with this rack.  When I want some security, I run cables through
    frames and wheels and through a hole in the back bumper and lock it up.
    
    The drawbacks to this rack are: 1) that it swivels slightly.  Small
    bungee cords from wheels to bumper solve this problem. 2) it flexes
    horizontally.  Don't put a bike with handlebars extenders next to the
    back window.  Bumps can make the extenders make contact with the
    window.  
    
    For the price ($100) and quick install/deinstall (just push/pull the
    locking pin), this rack works fine for those considering a 
    rack-in-the-back.

             
    I just wanted to give an update on my rack purchase. I bought the Rhode Gear
    Spare Tire Shuttle. This is the only spare tire rack I've seen that goes on
    a 10.5" wide tire (so my choice was limited rather ;^). I ordered it from
    L.L. Bean ($89 FedX) and used a Christmas gift certificate (I *love* their
    return policy too, just in case!)
    
    The rack's frame goes over the top of the tire and uses (2) 1" nylon straps
    with buckles to secure it to the tire. One strap goes around the tire's
    circumference (which ends up in a tread groove when tightened) and the 
    other goes around the diameter. Their main purpose is to keep the rack from
    turning or shifting on the tire. This years design has improved the bumpers
    where the bike actally sits on the rack. The (4) bumpers used to be foam
    and now they are heavy rubber (over plastic) with a strap which goes around
    the frame tube. I also use bungee cords to secure the bikes better. I've
    used it a couple of times (2 rather heavy ATB's) with no problems. 
                                                              
    The one thing I have to get used to is the bouncing of the tire/rack/bikes
    when on rough roads. No matter how secure, when you mount something to a 
    RUBBER tire (even a heavy duty All Terrain Tire, 6 ply?) you are going
    to get some movement, however the rack has not shifted. I must admit that
    I'm considering additional straps, or having heavier (and possibly wider
    straps stitched on. Maybe I'll just add one or two of those ratchet cargo
    straps for now...
    
    I love being able to swing the spare's gate open (with bikes loaded) and
    get into my tailgate. With the Pathfinder sitting so high, road clearance,
    (to bike's tires) as mentioned in a previous reply, is not issue for me
    (about 2' off the ground). I also use a 5' cable lock to lock the bikes
    and/or rack to the tire/gate. (IMHO locks just help keep honest folks
    honest). The biggest limitation I see is the two bike maximum. 
    
    /Charlie

I'm looking to purchase a Thule roof rack to carry our bicycles in the summer
and skis in the winter.  Where is the best place to buy a Thule?  Are there
any mailorder places?

Jim

    
    Goodale's in Nashua carries Thule racks.
    
    
    /todd

If you live anywhere near Milford, NH, try County Stores.  Reasonable selection and I
found their prices to be better than anywhere else.

    re .131
    Wheelworks in Belmont is well stocked with Thule roof racks.
    

     And REI in Reading, Ma. Just off 128 on rt 129. Large selection,
    can't comment on price. 
     Yakima sold there as well.
    
    bob

    
    Does any one know of a bike rack that will fit on a Peugeuot 205 CTI
    Convertable ?
    Does the standard Halfords rack fit ?
    
    ...Simon

    
    I drive a VW Cabrio, and the only carrier I found which didn't
    look like it would trash the soft-top was the SDI Carrier.  It
    mounts on the four nuts that hold on your license plate and
    a webbing strap to your truck lid.  I've been using it for about
    a year now, and am impressed that it's still solid.  I drive
    pretty fast, and a lot of the places we ride require driving off
    pavement for a bit.  It is expensive though.
    
    See the MTB Conference, Carriers note, for more details.
    
    Peter
    

    
    SDI, MDI... been programming windows way too long.

    Anyone have any experience with the BIC roof rack ?
    Thanks,
    Larry

Do you mean the kind where the bike is mounted upside down ?

I had one for 3-4 yrs with no problems but when I sold the car
that it fit and got a Thule for the new car, I was pleasantly suprised
as to how much easier it was to get the bike on/off the car.

-tom

Now that I think about it some more...

I remember it was always a challenge to get my handlebars
into the grooves, they were just too small and would cut up
the bar tape. I doubt they would even take an MTB's bars.

-tom

Anybody have any recent experience with the current crop of 
receiver-hitch racks? I saw some old notes referencing the Rhode
Gear, but there now "more substantial" looking units available
from Thule, Yakima and Softride. 

I'm aware of the potential problems with rear-mounted bikes 
(getting rear-ended, backing into something, etc), but we 
just bought a Blazer, and putting 'em on the roof doesn't exactly
look like fun (I'm only 5'8")...

    I want to take two mtb's about 1000 miles using a Acura Integra.
    Normally I would take my pickup but not this time.  I am just
    starting the investigation the how or if I will be able to do this.
    I have until May 20th to decide and take action.
    
    Options:
    
    o Get some type of car rack.
    o Disassemble bikes enough to put in car.
    o Don't take bikes.
    
    I don't want to spend over $100 for a rack but from reading various
    notes it sounds like this may not be possible.  Also some notes
    mention bike damage by carrying two at a time. It wasn't clear to
    me what type of damage?  I am also concerned about car damage, fit
    around rear spoiler (if rear rack), and mpg impact (if roof rack).
    
    Also, I think use of the car for bike hauling will be a rare event
    as I plan to get a new truck in the next year and my older truck is
    ok for under 50 mile trips. I am leaning towards disassembly of bike
    to transport.
    
    Thanks for any comments.
    Rob

    If I can ever afford a car that I care enough not to get scratched at
    all I might consider a hitch rack.  You have to buy a hitch of course.
    I have seen people put a hitch on their cars where the ball connects 
    to a bar and the ball/bar can easily be detached.  Leaving the
    remaining hitch part virtually unnoticable.   You then buy the hitch
    rack for about $80.  
    
    I like this because:
    1. the rack does not rest on the car.
    2. the rack is not too high for us short folk and dont have to worry
    	about driving into the garage with bikes on.
    3. still leaves the trunk accessable.
    4. costs less than the roof systems.  how much less depends on how much
    the hitch costs.
    
    
    Having said that I transport my bikes on a cheep trunk rack it works
    fine.  
    
    There are also rear racks that should easily fit over the rear spoiler
    e.g. the Rhode Gear Shuttle looks like it will.
    
    -Larry
    

Go to BJ's Warehouse and pick up one of the $35 trunk mount racks.  Then go to
the hardware store and pick up some of the gray foam tubular pipe insulation
and some shock cords.  Use the gray foam to go around any part of the bike that
might get scratched or that might scratch the car. We did that with great
success before we finally bought the Thule for the top of the car. 

Jim 

    re. .-1 .... I basically agree with Jim.
    One other trick I use... If I feel the bikes need extra securing to 
    the rack I will use an old tube after cutting off the valve ...and
    after last years fiasco with my flatting grand prix's I have a lot of 
    them ;-) 
    -Larry

    
>    There are also rear racks that should easily fit over the rear spoiler
>    e.g. the Rhode Gear Shuttle looks like it will.

Three or 4 years ago the *only* rear rack I could find to fit over my Supra's
rear spoiler was the Rhode Gear *Super* Shuttle, the Rhode Gear Shuttle wouldn't
work.  I know they've changed over the years (but can't offhand picture the new
design) so this may be a moot point.  The Super Shuttle had a bend in it that
the Shuttle didn't.  

Barb