Conference noted::bicycle

RE:  < Note 120.0 by HARDY::JOHNSON "Matt Johnson" >

>    Looking for advice as preventive medicine,

Don't break the law in the first place.  I'm serious.

						-- Tom

Unfortunately, not enough police will ticket bikers going thru red 
lights. It does happen, though. most places the fine is the same as the 
car fine, from what I've heard. ($50 - 100, maybe?).

Running a red on a bike gets you a chance at a ticket, a chance at an 
accident that will be much more serious than if you'd run the light in a 
car (for you, anyway), and a savings of maybe 20 seconds.

As for putting a foot down, if you do track-stands at a light and they 
hassle you, I suspect you could make a good case that you were still 
approaching the light and hadn't stopped yet when the light turned green 
again....
                              ken

    As for does the ticket go on your auto driving record.  It can't
    if they don't know your driver's license number.

    re: 0
    
    >Do cops ever actually ticket bikers, or just issue warnings?
    
    Well I've never gotten a ticket but I've been issued a written warning
    as well as completely hassled.  That is, pulled over, a check run
    for outstanding warrants, issued a written warning, and then followed
    for the next 2.5 miles or so. 
    
    Currently I don't live or ride in an area where there are many traffic
    lights but there are a number of STOP signs which I regularly "run".
    
    By "run" I mean;
    
    o Slowing down at the intersection
    o Checking for traffic in both directions
    o Proceding if its clear - STOPPING or Track standing.
    
    That is -  NOT stopping and putting your foot down at every stop sign or
    red light.  
    
    Its a hassle to get your cleated foot out of the clips
    at every stop sign or red light and I think (comments welcome) a
    bike rider has a better view of an intersection than a auto-drive,
    and can react (stop) faster.  So I typically use the "rolling stop"
    approach outlined above and avoid the one-foot-on-the-ground rule.
    
    Anyway does anyone know if there is a "one-foot-on-the-ground" rule
    in Mass. or NH???
    
    jbn
    

	In many states, running a red light in a car is considered
	a serious violation.  The police sometimes throw in things
	like reckless endangerment on top of the light violation to
	make the point.

	Police officials in Massachusetts (head of the police
	captains'/commissioners' association, or something like that, for
	example) have equated running red lights to a parking violation.

	It seems like, with all the out-of-staters coming in and complaining
	about the pathetic state of traffic control in Mass., and with
	all the public ridicule the state gets, some changes are beginning
	to happen, though slowly.  You're more likely to get a ticket
	this year than you were five years ago, but it's still much
	less likely than you would be anywhere else in the U.S.  They
	did change the stop sign rule a few years ago to require everybody
	to stop, rather than just the first of three, didn't they?  And
	the traffic circle rule is now the same as the rest of the U.S.
	Someday they'll straighten out right-of-way, and maybe even tell
	people about the rules.

	You're still more likely to get run over than to get ticketed for
	any moving violation if you're in Massachusetts.

	Hey, if you're so damned observant that you think you can watch
	out for yourself and ignore the light, how come you didn't see the
	cop?

        o Do cops ever actually ticket bikers, or just issue 
        warnings?

	- Yes.  and they should issue more tickets.  The reason
	  they often don't is the problem of dealing with kids
	  who regularly do everything wrong and getting their
	  parents to care.  Then they have the problem of unequal
	  enforcement if they ticket adults and not kids.

	- I once asked whether I should get a town sticker for my bike
	  and was told that if stopped twice for violations and I did
	  not have a sticker, the bike could be impounded.  I've never
	  been stopped.  The bike was not deemed "unsafe" when it was
	  totaled.  I went for a sticker once and was told that "my bike
	  was too nice looking," "If you get a warning, then come and get
	  a sticker."  Besides, I would have to put a bell on it to get
	  a sticker.

	- There was a kid killed in Goffstown last month while
	  crossing against a light.

	- There was a State Trooper in the Raymond, NH, area a
	  few years ago who harrassed riders regularly by stopping
	  them, saying they were "weaving" trying to get them away
	  from major roads, etc.

      o Can a ticket I get on my bike count against my auto 
        driver's license?  

	- Absolutely. If stopped, do not produce your driver's
	  license for id.  In fact, you no longer have to produce
	  id when requested but standing on that point is likely
	  to be more hassle than, "Gee, all I have is my bike club
	  membership card.  I live at so-and-so."

	  I worry about it when passing school buses.  They usually
	  pass me just so they can stop in front of me so I have no
	  qualms about getting away from them by passing -- as long as
	  I see that they've stopped the oncoming traffic.  Have to watch
	  out for those kids though.

      o What's the most effective excuse?  War stories to tell?  

	- How about "just trying not to hold up traffic"?  No? Oh well.

	- I would advise a "yes, sir" "no sir" attitude, contrition, etc.

      o How about the "one foot" law, which in some states
        requires bikers to put down at least one foot at a stop 
        sign before continuing? (Whoever thought of this was 
        never strapped into toeclips, I assume.)  
    
	- A pair of tandem riders were ticketed in California a
	  few years ago for not putting 2 feet on the ground.  I wonder
	  if it matters which two.  It was one of those major events
	  like Portland to SF or something.

    I know I am going to get razzed on this, but -----
    
    What is "Track-standing"?
    

>    What is "Track-standing"?

A proper trackstand can only be done with a track bike. Involves 
balancing while essentially stopped, with a slight back and forth motion 
(that's why it works on a track bike; since you can pedal backwards). In 
track racing, it's used for maneuvering for tactical advantage.

It can be faked on a derailleur bike with judicious use of brakes and 
pedals; and augmented further if you have an uphill or steep road crown,
which can help with the backward movement.

About the best I can do is get down to about 1/4 mph or so on either 
kind of bike...
                                    ken

    
    Get this....
    
    I was stopped at a traffic light in Ohio (on my bike).  I was looking
    down, adjusting one of my pedals, waiting for the light to change.
    A truck on the crossing street made a left hand turn and smashed
    into me head-on.  I was thrown onto the hood of the truck, then
    into the street.  I never saw it coming, as it hit me while I was
    still looking down.  
    
    When the police arrived, they informed me that the accident
    was both of our faults -- his for running into me, mine for not
    having the required horn on my bike.
    
    SO, YES, some places are very strict about bicycle laws.
    
    Chuck
      

re: .9 

You got to be kiddin, that's one of the sickest things I've ever heard of.
I quess Ohio police don't like people who ride bikes. 

Did you get any compensation like  money for a new bike ?

              Keith, who will bypass Ohio on his next transcontinental tour.

    The things that scare me are:
    
    - Stopping at a stop sign where autos may come up behind.
    
    - Accelerating from a traffic light in traffic because everybody's
      control is reduced.

    Note 120.11 says
    
    >The things that scare me are:
    >- Stopping at a stop sign where autos may come up behind.
    
    It seems to me that most drivers do pretty well at noticing things
    that are in front of them;  at least better than noticing cross
    traffic when the side street has a red light or stop sign.
         Additionally, the collision that might occur would be a low speed
    one, as the car should have been slowing down at the stop sign.
    The collision after running the light or stop sign would be at high
    speed.
    
    >- Accelerating from a traffic light in traffic because everybody's
    >  control is reduced.
    
    Sorry for all the flamage, but I don't agree.  A vehicle has less
    control when it is traveling at full speed.  It has even less in
    a panic stop.  When pulling away from a stop, you and the motorist
    are travelling at similar speeds.  The closing speed is much lower
    than on the open road.  Another factor is that while waiting, you
    have been sitting right in front of the motorist.  (S)He knows where
    you are.
    
    Trying to generate more light than heat,
    			-Jeff Bell
    

    
    Let's face it, it's HARD to see bicycles on the road most of the time.
    WE see them because we're sensitive to them, like most motorcycle
    riders are to motorcycles while driving the four wheeler. Joe Bonehead
    Motorist just isn't aware or alert enough, and sometimes just doesn't
    care enough to watch out for you. So do whatever you can to be noticed,
    like loud jerseys, waving arms, etc.
    
    Chuck, I don't remember this story, it's unbelieveable. Sounds like
    a great story for Bicycling magazine. How did you keep your cool?
    
    Ken, next time you're out this way, I'll show you a pretty fair
    trackstand on a derailleur bike, no hills, road crown, or brakes.
    
    CdH
    
    

    The habits of riders I see on the road every day are more
    uniform than the responses to this note so far.  The 
    following cases are very common:
    
    o Right turn at a stop sign or light -- slow down, check
      oncoming traffic, if nothing's coming, follow on through
      the corner.
    
    o Red light in the middle of nowhere.  Track stop at the
      line as long as possible.  If the light's still red and
      no one's coming, pull through. (An alternative I've seen
      is to turn right, make a U-turn, and then another right.)
 
    o Set of lights timed at 35mph or so -- treat them as a 
      series of stop signs.
       
    o Red light at a "T" intersection -- traffic entering from
      the left ("bottom" of the "T") as you ride along the "top" 
      of the "T". Stay on the shoulder and glide through, watching
      for cars pulling wide as they turn in beside you.

    Riders are usually trying to balance their sense of personal 
    and legal risk (breaking the law) with the frustration
    and inconvenience of a system that's not designed for them.
    A large number of riders seem to find that balance in the 
    habits I've described above.  The same applies to cars that
    drive 65mph on I-95 -- it's illegal, and a little more risky, 
    but most drivers do it anyway.  I'm not advocating this 
    behavior, and I'll take my knocks if I'm caught or hit,
    but I'll probably continue.  I know a lot of other riders
    will, too.  And just as drivers buy radar detectors for 
    their cars, I'll poll my fellow riders for ways of weidling
    out of the worst legal consequences.
    
    Reply to a reply (I forget the number):
    
    I think it's quite reasonable to be able to determine whether
    it's safe to proceed through an intersection without seeing
    the cop pulling out of the Pepper Pot restaurant parking lot
    half a block away.  How do you think cops expect to give tickets?
    
    MATT

	About the reference to the reference about being able to ignore
	red lights and missing the cop.

	The excuse I keep hearing around here (mostly drivers; not riders)
	for running lights is that they claim to be infallible and able
	to judge for themselves whether it's safe to proceed.  It's a
	typical attitude of arrogant Massachusettsans, who claim to be
	so skilled as to be able to flout traffic control, but have yet to
	explain the rather high accident rate (twice New York's!).

	I would guess few people actually try to cause accidents.  -It's a
	matter of misjudgment.  So, when you choose to ignore the rule, which
	has a pretty good record of keeping the cars apart, and go with
	your own imperfect judgment, you're asking for it.  If only you
	were the only victim of your own mistake...

	When an accident is covered on the news, caused by someone running
	a red light (who obviously didn't see the car coming with the green),
	they still seem to have the attitude that the accident was unavoidable.
	The cause is obvious.  But as long as the connection is never made
	between attitude and performance (and results), Massachusetts will
	remain the butt of joke around the country as having the most
	incompetent drivers in the country.  (In addition to the worst traffic
	control system in the country, rated 52nd, now that D.C. and Puerto
	Rico are included.)

    
    
    Here's another horror story.....
    
    	2 years ago a friend of mine and I rode our bikes from NY to
    San Fran. In passing through Tahoe City Calif we went through a
    red light and were promptly arrested. We were hancuffed and spent
    about 5 hours in jail (still handcuffed). Handcuffs are not fun!!
    
    	After 4 hours in the cell they told us that our fine was $38
    Apiece (nice round figure). We only had $40 on us at the time but
    we had travlers checks. Needless to say, they wouldn't take travlers
    checks and they wouldn't take $40. Our fine was 38 not 40!!!!!!
    We finally found someone who would make change for our $40, paid
    for one of us to get out and cash some checks to get the other out.
    
    Needless to say the whole thing sounds pretty illegal to me, but
    I was in no position to argue at the time.
    
    P.S. I still don't stop for red lights.... Some people just never
    learn......
    
    Stew