Conference noted::bicycle

    It sounds like you're fairly experienced, and probably know this
    already, but I'll throw it in anyway...
    
    It is often hard for ANY derailleur to shift going up a hill.  You
    described trying to shift while "cranking" I believe.  You should
    back off the presssure before shifting, especially in the front
    where the tension of very high.
    
    Another thought... Do you really need this wide a range?  Usually
    a rider needs either fairly low gears (touring in the mountains
    with loaded panniers) and goes easy on the downhill, or wants higher
    gears (criterium racing) and suffers on the uphill.
    
    I'm suggesting that you decide which is most important and get good
    gearing for that.  How about two sets of wheels??
    

    13-14-17-21-24-28, 28-45-50. Range is 28 -> 104.
    
    This is almost half-step (what I like most). 28-45-49 would be closer
    to half-step. This is almost the stock gearing on my Trek 620 (21
    instead of 20). The bike store didn't have a 49 front when I bought it,
    so I couldn't trade.
    
    As I think I said in some other note, I've found that the Suntour
    Mountech was the best-shifting front derailleur. I like the Superbe
    Tech rear. I've had trouble with skipping gears on the rear, if I'm not
    careful when shifting,  with all the rear derailleurs I've had, but I
    attribute this to my handlebar-end ("pinky") shifters.
    
    --Dan

    
    The Mountech rear is also a good wide range derailleur. Your symptoms
    seem to be related to the LePree not being able to handle that much
    chain. Those derailleurs just wern't designed for hard core touring
    or Mountain bike use like the Mountechs. Putting an extension on
    a front derailleur is a kludge at best.
    
    The Superbe Tech is nice but very fragile. I've seen several broken
    ones. I'd suggest the Mountech pair, who cares about a few grams
    extra weight on a touring bike, anyway?
    
    The Cycloid chainrings may be compounding your problems with the
    front derailleur since it's close to its limit now. Do you really
    like these?
    
    Chuck has a good point, do you really need this wide a range or
    are you trying to get the "ultimate" setup on your bike? If so,
    all you'll end up with is an "ultimate" compromise. Keep the range
    as narrow as your needs dictate. Your bike will shift better, perform
    better, and your legs will be a lot happier with a closer ratio.
    No, Reg, I don't mean 12-17!!!!
    
    CdH
    
    
    

	Thanks for the quick responses!  (Reg, I think 68" to 119" doesn't
	quite fit my idea of a wide range drivetrain...  Maybe if you change
	the 43 tooth chainring to a 17?)

	I have heard good things about the Mountech derailleurs from
	the technical columns in Bicycle magazine.  Sounds like they
	would fit the bill for wide range.

	Right now I spend most of my time on level ground in 14/40 (77")
	gear or 16/40 (67") gear so I only have one or two steps up from 
	there for downhills (or when I get stronger).  The only time I get
	to the 28 tooth chainring is when I'm at 28/40 (38") gear and it's 
	not low enough.  I would like to keep the 28/28 (27") gearing (or 
	lower!) for wall climbing (right now many hills look like walls to 
	me!).

				-John A. Wasser

    
    I'm running 26-42-45 in front into a 12 to 32 Ultra-7 rear. This
    gives me 22 to 102 gear inches.  Front der. is a Shimano DeOre (?)
    while the rear is the Huret Dupar, usuall recognized as the best
    rear der. for wide range gearing.  I'm having only slight difficulty
    skipping gears, but I blame this on the Uniglide (standard width)
    chain, which you aren't supposed to use on an Ultra 7. The standard
    narrow SediSport chain was horrible, and I've heard bad things about
    the Suntour Ultra chain streaching. I'll probably replace with two
    of (this is on the Avatar) Regina CX-S narrow chains. 
       I've run into a lot of people who've had problems with the DuPars.
    I think is mostly ham-fistedness and mis-adjustment, including the
    angle when viewed from the top.  
       I favor low gears with a limited top end - this forces you to
    spin on downhills (we all could spin better/faster).  The recumbent
    climbs poorly, so the low low gears are vital.  Avocet can get you
    down to a 24 and someone can get up to 34 in the rear - lessee,
    that would be a 19!    Drool.   - Chris

    Another vote for the Mountech rear...its half the price of the
    Duopar or Superbe tech and the chain doesn't fall off of the
    pulleys.
    
    Go with a 7 speed on the back if possible, a 48 X 12
    will give you 108 inches, this will reduce the amount
    of teeth difference.
    
    steve

    	Re my .1 and .8,  a little explanation :-
    
    	I LIKE close ratio gears !   I dislike carrying around "schtuff"
    (gears, tools, spare parts, etc.) that I am very unlikely to use.
    I am NOT too proud to walk up a hill that I can't ride my bike up,
    after all, I have a good enough excuse:-)
    
    Until I become a much better rider I will continue to enjoy being able
    to shift up just one tooth (one more on the back) and maintain almost
    the same cadence on the hill as on the flat.  It is VERY NICE to do
    this when the cadence drops to, say 85 and pick up very quickly in the
    new gear so I can keep both cadence and momentum as I spin into the
    hill.  It will take A LOT of development for me to be able to do this
    on a 4 tooth shift, perhaps I just lack a basic ability to acquire
    whatever skill is needed for that, but right now I can't make sudden
    25% jumps in my cadence.  I find the 43 x 16 and 43 x 15 to be nice
    spinning gears for the flat and slight upgrades, they get me the 20 mph
    cruising for a cadence of around 90 rpm which is where I "lock in".
    For downgrades and timetrials the 53 x 12 gives me >35 MPH without
    getting all spun out on the big downhills.  I am not saying that I can
    climb anything in New England on this gearing, I don't go looking for
    trouble, 'coz I don't carry trouble handling gears around with me for
    < 0.1% usage.  By the same token I won't have the 53 ring when I go to 
    Mt. Washington this year either.  When the going gets tough I use the
    opportunity for strength training, I like to keep the cadence up, but
    believe there is value to standing up for a < 50 RPM stomp on a hill
    sometimes, that rarely takes me below 10 MPH. 
    
    	I have never been as "strong" as when I was riding fixed gear.
    I may be trivially faster now, but only because the gearing allows
    me to optimize mechanical advantage according to terrain (Flip
    side of this says I've gotten lazy too).  I believe that fixed gear
    riding will develop strength and speed very quickly, on the uphills you
    are overgeared and have to use muscle to get up there at all, on the
    down grades you are under geared, cannot freewheel, and develop a very
    fast and smooth spin ( 200 + ).  The fact that you never stop pedalling
    adds to your aerobic development, using hold-back for braking also adds
    to the total work training load.  Incidently, a good test for the
    "right" gearing on fixed is whether you can lock up the back wheel with
    leg force on a dry road, if you can't then its too high, if you can it
    may be a little too low.  Here's a little spread sheet table for speed
    at 90 RPM in a few gears, it may not be perfectly accurate, but in an
    imperfect world...   ...etc. 
    
       			  MPH                              MPH
   Rings >      53.00   @ 90 RPM                 43.00   @ 90 RPM
      cogs
        V
        12     119.25      31.94                 96.75      25.92

        13     110.08      29.48                 89.31      23.92

        14     102.21      27.38                 82.93      22.21

        15      95.40      25.55                 77.40      20.73

        16      89.44      23.96                 72.56      19.44

        17      84.18      22.55                 68.29      18.29

        18      79.50      21.29                 64.50      17.28

        19      75.32      20.17                 61.11      16.37

        20      71.55      19.17                 58.05      15.55

        21      68.14      18.25                 55.29      14.81

        22      65.05      17.42                 52.77      14.14

        23      62.22      16.67                 50.48      13.52

        24      59.63      15.97                 48.38      12.96

    	Reg
    

    
    Reg, I agree with you about these close ratio gears, I use a 13-18/19
    for general riding. The 12 for me is only for racing or those long
    rides through the big hills. 
    
    But, so what if someone wants to use his/her 28-28 gear up a hill
    that we would go up in a 42-17? At least they're OUT RIDING! That's
    what it's all about anyways.
    
    CdH
    
    

    RE: 72.9..
    
    It sounds like you must be pretty fit, but are you sure you're not
    in too big a gear.  LeMond time trials in a 53/12 or 53/13 !!! 
    Also, "spinning" in a 43/15 is pretty tough when out training alone.
    If you want unsolicited advice, I would get your normal cadence
    up around 100-110, and go with lower gears...
    
    Of course, you may not care for unsolicited advice...

    re (.11 re .9)	I welcome unsolicited advice.  As I said, I
    have some development to do and spinning is part of that.  I try to
    take at least one ride a week in the lowest gear, i.e. I stay in the
    bottom gear for the whole ride and keep up with the pedals even on the
    downhills.  This keeps me going at 100 + for over an hour.  I am too
    big for 165 cranks and prolonged spinning at higher revs., I can get
    over 200 rpm on 170 cranks, but not for long. I guess I have a hangup
    about hauling 34 tooth cogs and/or 24 tooth rings around knowing that
    I'll never get onto anything bigger than an 18 or so 99.9% of the time. 

    	Regarding who else does what, with what, and where, I confess
    ignorance.  What is right for them may be very wrong for me, whether
    it be higher vs lower or green vs blue.  I do know that for me, on the
    TT course that I ride, I need a 53 x 12 on the way back, I used to get
    badly spun out on the 52 x 13. 

    	Reg	(Still trying to spin, but liking 90-95)
    

    
    90-95 rpm is fine for TT's, even dropping below 90 is ok as long
    as you're on a flat, possibly downhill section and not bogging down.
    FYI, I usually TT at around 90-100, race at 90-120, sprint at 140-150.
    200 really has no benefit, except on a fixed gear early in the season
    as Reg mentioned in another reply. 
    
    Chris_who_loves_67"_fixed_gear
    
    

	After looking in a number of catalogs at the available clusters
	and rings, it looks like the ultimate (or near ultimate) in
	gearing is:

		Rear: Ultra-7 with 12 to 32 (17.76% steps)
		Front: Triple with 24-xx-54

	For half-step gearing, use 24-50-54
	For crossover gearing, use 24-46-54
	For Alpine gearing, use    24-43-54

	This gearing will give a low gear of 20" and a high of 122"!

	(Now I just have to find a rear derailleur that will handle
	the 50 tooth difference!)

			-John A. Wasser

	P.S.  This wider range 21 speed will produce SMALLER steps between
	gears than my current 15 speed!

	I have replaced my Suntour LePree derailleurs with a Huret DuoPar
	in the rear and a Suntour Mountech in the front.  They both are
	shifting MUCH better than the LePree's.  Now all I need is a
	new gear cluster and new chainrings....

				-John A. Wasser

I have over 15,000 miles on Huret Duopars -- that's right, it's plural --
both ECO and titanium (plurals there, too) that adds up to a few bucks even
though I got the titaniums for $34 each.  They shift great on a freewheel
of up to 32 teeth.  Until they bend/break/vibrate loose/fall apart/just
plain wear out the pulleys. 

When I was never more than 100 miles from my car and repair parts and
tools, that didn't bother me but having one fall oepn in the hinter lands
of the Adirondacks has caused me to sit back and look at reliability more
carefully.  I mean, I have over 6000 miles on my Guerciotti this summer and
have done nothing but wipe the crud off the derailleurs (some checks for
tightness but nothing loose) -- no replacements.

There's a column in Bikereport (Bikecentennial's newsletter) where their
mechanic/consultant answers questions about parts and reliability and the
Duopar gets a pretty bad mention for frequently needing replacement.

I am looking to the ATB market for something that will stand up under
stress in the wide-range business.  By the next time my tourer hits the
road, I will probably have a Mountech rear derailleur on it.

ed