Conference noted::bicycle

	I'm sure most of us have fiddled with them at some point of time.

	Every time I've had wheels built by good, reputable shops (I didn't
have the time) they've fallen apart. So now I FIND the time to build them
myself. No free laps for wobbly wheels.
	Factory wheels are the worst. Most are built on a Marchetti and Lange
or similar machine, which is no substitute for a good handbuilt wheel. Yes,
you do have a legitimate beef with whomever sold you the bike, IF you haven't
damaged the rim. Most shops don't bother to check tensions when setting up
a new bike, they just eyeball-true them. So, after the holidays, take it
back, and they should retension/retrue it for you. But they most likely won't
give you a new wheel, that's unnecessary.

Good luck

CdH

	My experience is similar to Chris deHahn's, eventually it is
best to learn how to do them yourself.  You know its done right, you
know that the bike doesn't have to go into the shop for n days when
you want it the most (thats why they are so busy, everyone wants their
bike fixed when the sun shines), you also know that if you ding up a
rim on the road you can probably get it straightened out enough to
ride home on if you carry the little wrench.  Any reputable bike shop
should true/tension a wheel from a bike they sold you, some will do it
free for the first year, others will even do it for free "forever"
(they want the traffic in the store and it makes fill in work).  Now,
if you bought from a department or "toy" store things may be
different, they may have to give you a new wheel as the only way of
supporting what they sell. 

	Good luck with this, be an assertive consumer ! 

	Reg	(Who has knitted his own wheels since before he could 
		afford to pay other people to do it wrong)

Wheelsmith in Palo Alto, CA, builds wheels using a robot. I have never owned
a set of these, but they have been praised as the best by a number of my
bikie friends there.

--Dan

I've built probably 150 -> 200 wheels in my bike mechanic days - some 
things I've found out....

Machine built wheels are generally poor. You can usually tell a machine 
built wheel because the "trailing" spokes are placed in the hubs with 
the spoke head on the outside of the hub on one side of the wheel, and 
the spoke head is on the inside of the hub on the other side. In most 
handbuilt wheels the two sides are sort of mirror images of each other.
However, I have a machine built wheel that I got USED off a Gitane Super 
Corsa in '73 (?) that's just finally starting to collapse for good. So 
machine builts CAN be OK.

As for tensioning wheels - have found that most commercial rims are not 
very round/true out of the box. So surprise, making a round/true wheel 
out of one of these involves having slightly different tension on each 
spoke. If the rim is real bad to start out with, the tensions may be 
DRASTICALLY different. I would tend to avoid shops that guarantee 
"wheels round and true within .00000009 nanometers" or such, if you 
really wanted to ride those wheels. I try to strike a balance between 
roundness/trueness and spoke tension, with the result that a new wheel I 
build up might be perhaps a mm out-of-round (average tubular seems to be 
about 4 mm out of round anyhow). A number of wheels built with this idea 
in mind have not required any attention for several years.

When truing out a wobble in a wheel, it is a good idea to concentrate 
your effort on several spokes - instead of tightening the spoke at the 
center of the bulge 1 turn, tighten the spokes on either side 1/4 turn 
and the one at the bulge 1/2 turn. And LOOSEN the spokes opposite, by 
a similar amount. This distributes the tension and keeps the wheel from 
going out of round. USE A GOOD SPOKE WRENCH THAT FITS YOUR SPOKES!
                                       roll on,
                                       ken

i know this a late reply to this topic, but i've only just become aware
of the conference....

wheels require constant truing, (at least if you're in my weight range
230-240, and you ride massachusetts country backroads to work daily).  i
bought a low-tech minoura truing stand for about $28.00 and check my wheels
daily - they tend to need adjustment about once a week. 

tensioning and truing are an art, once you've got the wheels trued to the
point of perfection, as mentioned, you can end up with lots of variance in
the tension. (you can check tension easily by plucking the spokes like harp
strings and avoid putting out $100+ for a spoke tension meter).  Eventually,
if the wheel is in true, but unevenly stressed, it will warp out requiring
additional adjustment.  eventually you get a rim that's been pulled into
reasonable shape and can be held there with relatively consistent spoke tension
all around - but you have to be constantly adjusting.

It not all that time consuming once you get through the first time, and you
do it regularly.  the benefits are unbelievable, especially if you've been
riding on poorly trued wheels.  Bicycling magazine ran a series of articles
on wheel rebuilding in the Feb, Apr, & May issues 1986 - copies available
on request.

-rfl

    RE: .5
    
    Great to have you on the conference.  Welcome aboard.
    
    I'm a little hesitant to start out by disagreeing with something
    you said, but I guess that's part of the reason for the conference;
    exchanging ideas...
    
    I find that properly trued and tensioned wheels should not need
    much attention.  I wonder if you don't have them tight enough? 
    This is often a source of trouble.  (The spoke that is pointed down
    at any time is deloaded by the weight of the rider.  If that spoke
    is not tight enough, the tension can drop near zero, causing the
    nipple to turn and loosening.)
    
    Lock-Tight is also good for problem wheels.  Build the wheel with
    clean spokes and nipples then Lock-Tight each after a short break-in 
    period.                                       
    
    Hope these ideas help.
    
    Chuck

    
    I agree in part with Chuck (as usual). Properly built wheels will
    need very little truing unless they've been damaged. After truing,
    spoke tensions SHOULD BE RELATIVELY EVEN. If not, you're not truing
    them correctly. If there is a serious mismatch in tensions on adjacent
    spokes, you have rim damage, and the wheel is basically junk.
    
    CdH
    

    
    Re: Loctite
    
    I don't use it, I tried it once and it was more hassle then it is
    worth. If you use top quality spokes straight out of the box, the
    thin film of grease on them (assuming they're stainless) will lubricate
    the threads enough to properly tension the wheel, but not enough
    to cause slipping. If you feel they're too well greased then wipe
    the thread ends off with a rag before lacing the wheel. Make sure
    there's some lubrication, though, or there will be too much friction.
    
    CdH
    
    

>    If there is a serious mismatch in tensions on adjacent
>    spokes, you have rim damage, and the wheel is basically junk.
    
Unfortunately, back when I was building a lot of wheels, often the rims came 
pre-damaged for your convenience, usually with a big flat spot, out of 
round spot, or side-to-side jump at the spot where the rim ends were 
joined together. It's been a number of years since I had to build 15 or 
20 wheels a month, hopefully the manufacturers are doing better now? I 
just built a Mavic rim that was pretty nice; they used to be one of the 
worst offenders, but it's too small a sample to judge.

As for truing stands, I got one about 2 years ago. I'll check the brand.
Took about 1.5 hours with a file and Dremel tool before an axle would
fit down into the two slots on the uprights! I'm still not very happy 
with it.....

                                             roller time again,
                                             ken

    - Thanks for correcting my spelling of Loctite, Chris.
    
    - Chris raises another good point that I forgot to mention.
    Lubrication on spoke threads (or any threads anywhere) helps you
    to tighten the joint and results in less loosening in the future.
    This may seem counter-intuitive.  In fact, I grease EVERY nut and
    bolt when I am asembling a new bike.  I also grease the lug nuts
    on my car wheels (a great help in getting them off too).
    
    - The only exception I would make to greasing spoke nipples is if
    you like the Loctite route.  Then you should make them dry so the
    Loctite wil hold.
    
    Chuck

I find it useful to restrain myself from lubricating a few of the threads,
namely, those on the bottom bracket cups and those on the shifter bolts. 
(That is, I do not grease them, anymore.  I can only recall problems
whenever I did.)

As a matter of fact, I have never greased the threads on a steer tube,
either, and I don't think I would. 

But, yes, 1st rule of mechanics: Grease those threads!

ed

I envy those of you who have the skill and patience to true wheels.

Every time I have tried they end up worse than where they start, not
that I'm complaining (much).  Have seen them do my wheels in Lexington
Cycle. In the time it takes for me to figure which nipple to turn,
Mark has finished the job. 

So i leave it to Mark.

A local bike shop owner told me that some advice given to him many
years ago was, "You can make more money by giving away spoke wrenches
than by selling them."

Of course, nowadays, the cost of liability insurance would go through
the roof.

ed

	I prefer Anti-Seize (TM, probably some non-standard spelling,
	too) for lug nuts.  You need something pretty heavy for stuff
	on cars.  It makes it possible to properly torque bolts and
	nuts, and it makes it possible to get them apart in the future.
	(The alternative is to move to Arizona, where the bolts don't
	rust.)

    RE: .13
    
    I like that...  (I had to think about it a bit to get it.)
                 
    Chuck