Conference terri::cars_uk

Yup,

     just like the idiots who insist on sitting in the outside lane of the
     motorway doing 50 mph (in a 70 mph limit), when the other lanes are unused !


Gimme a machine gun and plenty of ammo    



/warren

re .0,

I think that encouraging people to drive faster than they are comfortable
with is a bit dangerous, although it would be nice if slower drivers would
show more consideration, such as pulling over occasionally to let faster
traffic past (I have never seen anyone doing this, they seem content to
allow tempers to fray and be overtaken dangerously) and perhaps avoid
driving at times when the roads are busiest.

A related (and probably familiar by now!) complaint of mine is that the
slower drivers seem to have the lowest regard for speed limits in residential
areas.  I get really annoyed when, after being stuck behind some slow driver
doing around 45mph for the last few miles, I enter a 30mph limit and slow
down, and they maintain exactly the same speed, zooming off into the distance,
often where there are kids playing, too.  Aargh!

Chris.

    
    AND........they are always the ones who constantly turn and talk to 
    their passengers and are always looking down at the gearstick (I think)
    
    AND.......yes they do look and see you coming but still pull out from a
    junction and 'speed up' to 35.
    
    I've followed people doing 35mph on the open road and they 'speed up' to 
    40mph when they enter a 40mph zone.......confusing eh ?.....or they are
    doing 35mph and keep on doing 35mph when they enter a 30mph zone.......
    ....what are they on ???
    
   Dazed and Confused.....cue for a song there.....
    
    colin
    

    ....why so little understanding. It makes sense! Looking down a street
    with no cars in sight doesn't mean there's nothing there. You may not have
    seen it..... So just wait untill you do see one and get on the road as
    quickly as possible.
    Same goes for 60 and 40 zones. The 60 zones are too wide to have any
    feel of speed. Now in 40 zones you have LOTS of markers to relate so
    you can safely speed up.....
    And what about traffic lights? These are tricky customers you know!
    As long as they are green they may go orange just like that, so please 
    beware. Now, as they have already turned to orange at least you know 
    so you can put your foot down!
    
    Quite a large fraction of people has VERY, VERY poor eyesight. Just
    test yourself against some collegues reading the number plates on the
    parking lot. IMHO about 50% of drivers should not be allowed behind the
    wheel because of lack of eyesight, never mind the rest of the possible
    quirks. Imagine 50% less drivers, of which most would be the slugs....
    
    Having a drivers license is a priviledge of which one is supposed to be
    worthy, so:
    - lot tighter physicals, at least every 5 years and at 50+ every other
    - whole lot tougher skills test
    - only two test failures allowed
    Also:
    - greatly simplify the highway code
    - do away with traffic lights
    - no speed limit on 4-laners
    - stricter controlls on the limited rules
    - tougher penalties
    - repeated misconduct = loss of license
    Last but not least:
    - No Volvo's allowed 
    
    Peter

    
    Keith,
    
    	I'm glad you said that->
    
>>	 I have seen people pulling in to let others pass but very rarely 
>>	and those who've pulled in have always been pulling a caravan 
    
    	When I'm towing, I always keep a look out to see if I'm holding
    people up and pull in to let them by. Obviously you can't always be
    doing this, but when its easy, eg a layby, then its nosweat. You just
    have to imagine what it would be like being stuck there yourself!
    	I commute into work everyday through a rural area along a main road
    which passes through a number of farming villages. On quite a number of
    occasions I've come upon a column of traffic following a tractor into
    one of these villages and still been following it on the way to the
    next one. Admittedly some tractor drivers are good enough to pull over,
    but one or two stubbornly sit there doing 15-20mph with a couple of
    trailers on the back and a long line of drivers in a hurry to get to
    work. Still, my neighbour's a farmer and he still ploughs his fields
    with a horse!

    WRT slow driving:
    
    Driving so that a long procession builds up behind you is classed as
    'moving traffic obstruction', as a minimum offence.  It can also be
    dealt with as 'due consideration'.
    
    WRT position on the road:
    
    I understand that driving instructors are now taught to teach people to
    drive towards the centre of the road -- avoiding kerbside debris and
    reducing the risk if pedestrians step off the pavement without looking
    -- unfortunately they forget to teach people to pull over for faster
    traffic.

    Talking of slow drivers blocking people off, I had a quiet laugh at one
    of the cases shown on one of the "Police STOP" videos :-
    
    Driver in the second lane of a three lane motorway, travelling at a
    steady 70mph past vehicles travelling rather slower in lane 1 (i.e.
    legally overtaking in the first of the two overtaking lanes).
    
    Car comes blatting past at better than 100mph in second overtaking
    lane.  70mph driver sees another car coming up at the same sort of
    speed, so pulls out into second overtaking lane at 70mph and then
    gradually slows down.
    
    70-mph driver is VERY perturbed to discover that the car he is
    obstructing is an unmarked motorway patrol car in pursuit of a speeder
    (he finds out by being stopped for driving without due care and
    attention and a warning for obstructing the police).
    
    	Ian Gordon
    	(Soon to be ex-)Computer Systems Administrator
    	Basys Automation Systems Ltd.

    re .0
    
    Well its good to see that the bank holiday has lifted our feelings
    towards fellow man to a new height. There is no such thing as a
    national speed limit inferred as a minimum. If someone wants to drive
    at a modest (nb modest, not unreasonable) speed then why not? There are
    very few roads where a minimum speed could be set for more than a few
    hundred yards. One could not say that outside of restricted areas (30
    or 40) the minimum is 50 and on M-ways 70.
    
    My father has a truism "One car does not make a queue". If it is not
    safe for you to pass then that is your problem not the car in front.
    The car in front does not cause an accident if you get frustrated and
    take a risk.
    
    I do think that really slow moving traffic, say less than 15mph, could
    have an obligation to allow other traffic to pass periodically.
    
    Andrew

    �There is no such thing as a national speed limit inferred as a
    minimum.
    
    I have to agree with Andrew here. If the national speed limit applies
    it is just that - a 'limit' which should not be exceeded. It certainly
    doesn't mean you have to drive at the limit.
    
    Frustrating as it may be, there will never be a law against people who
    are simply not in a rush.
    
    Royston

>    If it is not
>    safe for you to pass then that is your problem not the car in front.
>    The car in front does not cause an accident if you get frustrated and
>    take a risk.
    
All very true, although that doesn't mean that the driver of the car
in front is obliged to be uncooperative though!  I often wonder if some
people who have a large queue of traffic building up behind them are simply
unaware of what is happening (ie too unobservant to drive?) or is quite
happy to see a load of irate drivers unable to get on with their journey
at the speed that *they* would like.  There may not be any laws against
causing a tailback, but that doesn't necessarity excuse unsociable driving
habits.  (And how come I always get sandwiched between some OAP in his
tweed hat driving a Metro in front and a 17 year old yob driving a XR3i,
complete with 8 billion fog lamps, stuck to my rear bumper?!)

Chris.

    	One of the points that I remember being emphasised from training
    for my bike test was that if conditions permitted, the examiners would
    want to see 30mph in a 30 limit, 40 in a 40, 60 in a 60, etc as they'd
    been known to fail candidates for not doing so.	
    
    	The reported comment was something like "If you want to potter
    round at slow speeds, I don't see that you need a bigger bike to do
    so."

    I remember seeing in some recent TV program about police and road
    safety that they do in fact stop people who they believe are driving
    too slowly (unreasonably so) and "have a word with them". In fact they
    showed an example of exactly that being done to an old chap. 

   >> Same goes for 60 and 40 zones. The 60 zones are too wide to have any
   >> feel of speed. Now in 40 zones you have LOTS of markers to relate so
   >> you can safely speed up.....
    
      Maybe I should explain the road.......Grangemouth to Bo'ness.....
      Coming out of Grangemouth, it is 40mph moving into a 60mph road of
      about 3 miles....why slow down to 35mph ?? entering Bo'ness your back
      into the 40mph and they speed back up to 35mph and keep doing this
      speed when they pass the 30mph signs.......sheer lack of road sense
      and a bit of pi**in* about........
    
   >> And what about traffic lights? These are tricky customers you know!
   >> As long as they are green they may go orange just like that, so please 
   >> beware. Now, as they have already turned to orange at least you know 
   >> so you can put your foot down!
    
      No traffic lights......
    
   >> Quite a large fraction of people has VERY, VERY poor eyesight. Just
   >> test yourself against some collegues reading the number plates on the
   >> parking lot. IMHO about 50% of drivers should not be allowed behind the
   >> wheel because of lack of eyesight, never mind the rest of the possible
   >> quirks. Imagine 50% less drivers, of which most would be the slugs....
    
     Totally agree !!!!! I've seen people driving into work then put a 
     couple of 'milk bottles' on when they come in......
    
    colin

    .7�    I understand that driving instructors are now taught to teach people to
    .7�   drive towards the centre of the road
    
    Perhaps that is one reason why many people drive along the centre
    lanes (of three-lane m/ways) instead of using 'the left-most lane'
    except when overtaking.
    
    Martin.

    re .12
    
 >> There is no such thing as a national speed limit inferred as a minimum. 

    Andrew may I suggest you get your Highway Code out and next time you drive
    past one of those white circles with a black band through it stuck on a 
    pole by the road check out what it means. This informs you ( source
    Highway code ) that the national speed limit applies, which is 60 MPH.
    
    > Clearly you do not recall what the highway code says about speed
    limits, nor are you able to understand my phrasing. Did you see that
    word "minimum"? Let me express my opinion more plainly - there is no
    national minimum speed - also there is no one blanket speed limit once
    one passes those rather nice liquorice allsorts on sticks that the
    Government thoughtfully erects on the way out of towns so that one
    knows it is time to turn back when seeking out an address.
 
>>   My father has a truism "One car does not make a queue". If it is not
>>  safe for you to pass then that is your problem not the car in front.

    What rubbish, bet he has a Volvo.
    > What part of theses two sentences is "rubbish"? My father does not
    drive a volvo.
    
     If anyone is unable to drive a car at all legal speeds then they
    should not hold a driving license.
     
     I don't think I am being unreasonable wishing to drive at the speed 
    limit.
> So to summarise your view of British road behaviour as it should be:-
    No one is allowed to drive at below the ruling speed limit if
    conditions allow.
    All cars not capable of being driven at the ruling speed limit should
    be removed.
    Keith Cormack always drives at the ruling speed limit and all other
    motorists get out of the way.
    No one is allowed to enjoy the countryside, house hunt, find customers'
    premises...
    
    Do I catch your drift?
    
    Andrew    
               

    Keith
    
    Can I have your car details. Make, model, reg no?
    
    I for one will allow you to pass even if I have to stop to do so.
    
    Dave

    Keith,
    
    Have you considered that the man driving at 35mph may have reacted to
    horn/lights/hand gestures etc by minimising the risk of serious collision
    between his car & one being driven by an impatient & bad-tempered
    driver ?
    
    Who's in the wrong ?
    
    
    My daughter recently passed her test & has not built up years of
    knowledge of road-behaviour. When she was tailed by a hand-waiving XR3
    driver hell-bent on hitting 60 mph she was not intimidated by
    his immature behaviour. Instead she slowed down to 35 mph to allow this
    goon to pass. She had nowhere to pull-off the road & was not ready to
    stretch the car to its limits. Unfortunately the other driver took this
    as a personal insult to his manhood & became visibly abusive.
    
    When she told me about it, I suggested she had done exactly the right
    thing by making it easier for him to pass & not taking the bait.
    
    Personally I like to drive at the limit, but I feel I dont have the
    right to decide how others should drive, especially if they are driving
    safely, which after all, is what we all should be doing. 
    
    If others cannot contain their frustration, then the highway is not the
    place for it. Why not take up motor sport, & give the others hell :-)
    
    Tony, ex banger racer & member of IAM.

    Hm,....I got the impression that the base noter was NOT a speeder nor
    was referring to a need to do so. Just expressing his amazement about
    the ludicrous behavior of, unfortunately too many, oddballs! Don't get
    this off track please, nobody in here was urging your daughter to
    speed....
    The point is that there are too many people driving, wether pottering or
    speeding, that have no right to clutter the roads as they are either
    physically or mentally not in the correct state or lack the skills
    needed. Just because we all support you "need to drive safely", these
    mobile chicanes should be banned as th�y aren't safe!  
    By all means drive slowly if you can't drive proper, just do it, like
    you suggested, on a closed track. This wasn't about speeding
    remember...
    
    Peter, ex moto-X, motor/car racer, enduro rider, member of LOC, UDC,
    IOM TT riders ass. and an assortment of dog clubs(whatever that's got to
    do with it and, like the rest, says nothing about my driving on the
    road...)                                         

    RE:.22 and others
    
    	> ....they have no right to clutter the roads ...
    
    	You have no "right" to drive at the speed limit. If it is safe to
    	do so you can and I always "like" to.
    
    	> mobile chicanes aren't safe
    
    	maybe this is caused by the driving behaviour behind!
    
    I drive over 40K business miles for Digital and like to keep my time on
    the road to the miminum. I sometimes feel frustrated behind slower
    traffic ..... but they have just as much right to drive at "their"
    speed as I do mine. Just cool down .... with the growth in traffic it's
    bound to get worse.                          
    
    

    Have you ever noticed?
    If you do overtake the car in front doing 35 in a 60 then usually
    another mile up the road there is another one doing roughly the same ..
    you slow down and in a matter of mins that idiot you passed earlier has
    caught you up and you just know what he is saying or thinking..
    
    And what about when you follow somebody for 10 miles round a twisty
    country lane doing about 30 miles an hour...you see the 300 yrd
    straight and go for it, as you pass him, relief flooding through your
    body, you catch sight of his indicator turning right - he slows down and
    turns off....down that road you could have sworn just was not there earlier..
    Then joy oh joy another target appears in the distance - some old dear in a
    Rover 214....cruising at a mighty 40 in a car capable of almost 3*
    that speed....
    Im afraid they should just bring back hanging! 
    Or flogging or some other form of torture befitting these "blood clots"
    of the road....What about Shooting? that might cure society of this
    menace to society..
    I am open to ideas, obviously the flashing of lights etc just is not
    harsh enough...
    
    
    Judge Pickles.
    

    Has anyone actually stopped long enough to THINK about the extra time
    delay invloved when being held up by slower traffic?
    
    I regularly go up to Kyle of Lochalsh from Fife, a journey encountering
    some of the busiest and twistiest roads ..
    
    In the middle of winter, at night , with no delays, and NO other
    traffic, the journey takes me 3 and a half hours. Thats driving as
    quickly as possible without causing the kids to puke up!
    
    
    In the height of summer, when the same roads are dripping with tourists
    and caravans etc.... the journey takes me an extra 15 mins..
    
    
    
    
    
    Personally........... I don't think 15 mins extra over a 230 mile
    journey is worth trying to kill yourself/anyone over by agressive
    driving!
    
    Just take your time, go with the flow, overtake only when safe and
    you'll be surprised at how little extra time your journey takes, and
    how less stressed out you'll feel at the end of it!
    
    
    
    Dave
    

>    Personally........... I don't think 15 mins extra over a 230 mile
>    journey is worth trying to kill yourself/anyone over by agressive
>    driving!
    
oh I dunno... I have such a complete loathing of driving around these
days that every *second* spent on public roads is too long; today's
driving conditions seem to miraculously combine extreme feelings of
stress and boredom, and being stuck behind someone who clearly couldn't
give a toss about delaying others does nothing to improve the situation...

Chris.

	To me, a "Road Hog" is one who Hogs the road, preventing others from
using it as they wish - IMHO.

	Now again, to me, if someone wishes to drive slower/much slower than me,
that is fine by me when I come up behind them on the road, but if they insist in
driving in the middle of the road - hogging it - then I find that a little hard
to take, because they are preventing me (or making it unnecessarily difficult)
to otherwise safely overtake them.

				Malcolm.

    Many years ago, when I was even less mature than I am now, I used to
    read comics with titles like "NICK FURY - AGENT OF SHIELD".  Now, Nick
    had a Porsche 911 that had been modified by SHIELD's techies, so that
    when you pressed a button on the dash, the wheels rotated through 90
    degrees and turned into anti-grav thrusters and the car flew up into
    the air and off to SHIELD's HQ aboard the Heli-Carrier....
    
    For many years, I have wanted a car that will do this, but getting one
    is about as likely as the death penalty being introduced for
    unspeeding....
    
    Richard
    

    ...or what about a certain black Pontiac Firebird named KIT, that had a
    'road hog' button as well (marked 'turbo boost').
    
    Andy

    
    
    The SPV used by Captains Scarlet, Blue and a few others had a good
    solution to the problem....
    
    	A rocket launcher which popped up at the flick of a switch !
    
      .....of course, you'd then needed special tyres and bumpers to deal
    with the debris left smouldering in the road....
    
    Graham

    What about Jamesh Bondsh Ashton Martin DB6 (GoldFinger) ....
    As you overtake you either rip the side of the car to shreds,
    Blow it away from behind with 2 Browning sub machine guns or offer the
    driver of the vehicle a lift,( if on the off chance he brakes down
    infront of you) and fire him through the roof on the"Ejector Sheat"...
    If only life was so simple...
    
    G.
    
      

    
    Left work 19:05 last night... immediately stuck behind a Fiat Uno doing
    35mph. Bid my time and got buy safely just after Newton. Turn to go 
    through Hopeton (sp) Estate and have to slow down to avoid scaring 
    horses(and riders) which is fair enough. Then it starts, turn onto
    the road heading towards Threemiletown and 2 cyclists riding parallel
    to each other refuse to go single file about 3/4 mile before road is
    clear and safe enough to pass. Turn onto Ecclesmachen road and another
    35mph Uno is trundling along. Stuck behind it until the lights at
    Uphall. It turns towards Livingston (as I did) and now I think 
    I'll get past him when the road widens to 3 lanes. This clown
    then decides to drive as close to the middle of the road as possible 
    making it impossible to pass him due to oncoming traffic. 
    
    Total time to get home 30 minutes...
    Journey distance 11 miles exactly (SQF - my front door)
    
    Gordon...
    
    p.s I was VERY upset with the cyclists
      
    

Another observation... why is it that slower drivers seem to be the worst
offenders when it comes to jumping queues?

An example, when I used to work in Colchester, was the drive through
Braintree.  Having spent the last 5 miles trying to find a safe position
to overtake the old git/silly airhead/whatever (who would invariably
accelarate at the moment of overtaking anyway), it was depressing sitting
queued at the traffic lights with a number of other drivers who'd just
done likewise, to watch the moving obstruction overtake using the right-
turn-only lane and force their way back in, then procede to curtail our
speed to 35mph for several more miles.

As this occured every day, it came as something of a relief when the
by-pass was finally opened.

Chris.

     <<< Note 2266.34 by AVON::Mike "I Dont Drive fast, I fly low....." >>>
                       -< You aint' getting past me !! >-


    Bully old duffers driving metros and the like I can handle, pottering
    along at 35(ish), at least you know they aint' going to speed up, and
    therefore easy to overtake. Its the 'you aint getting past me !!' *$%�@@ 
    I dont like.
    
    eg; You approach a Flat capped *** in his 2.0i, you are doing 60, he is 
    doing 35/40, you go to overtake and pow, he floors it, requiring you to
    do Mach 1.0 to pass, so you dont. Out of every bend he does this, then 
    slows to 30 into the next (bends which anyone with any ability can take at 
    >55). 
    
    Anyone else had to suffer this one ?
    
    Mike
 

    

    LB how about that for a notes clash.
    
    Simon

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH
    
    Discovery this morning - 45 in a 30 zone, 30 in a 40 zone, 65 in 60
    zone wide road tearing down dotted line
    
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH
    
    (I feel better for that !)
    
    Andy

    re .36
    Sometimes. Mind, having a car that feels like it's doing mach 2 helps
    :-)
    f

    I hope those complaining in here about the "slow" car are not the same
    as those who follow the "slow" car so closely that anyone with the
    horsepower to overtake one (or two) cars at a time but not a whole
    queue at once can do so.  I also suffer the slow cars,  but most
    times I can get past the single cars,  its the long nose-to-tail queues
    that I hate.  The "slow" driver has every right to travel whatever
    speed they like, even to stop if they want (well,  on most roads.
    anyway).
    
    Jc
    

    I passed my driving test at a late stage, about 24 or 25 years old. The
    first car I drove (on my own) was an Audi 100cd pool car (remember
    those). One Friday evening I drove to Oxford to visit my parents. It
    was quite late and chucking it down with rain. Driving up the Maple
    Durham Road (13 bends of death) I kept to about 40, the road is
    actually 60, because that was the speed I felt safe at, visibilty being
    reduced by the rain.
    
    After a short while another car came up behind my, too fast in my
    opinion, and he had to brake quite hard as I saw the head lights dip
    down. He then drove within about 10 - 15 feet behind me, comeing up
    close then dropping back, then he put his headlights on full beam.
    When I say full beam this was more like a portable version of the
    Blackpool illumination, this lit up the entire inside of the car.
    I felt very intimidated and started to concentrate more on the car
    behind than in front.
    
    When I nearly missed one of the bends, because of the dazzle behind, I
    decided to let this prat go.  I pulled over onto strip of grass nect to
    the road and he shot passed missing me by about 2 feet.
    
    Later on towards Oxford I saw a simular car with its front end buried
    in a ditch, I wonder today if the two cars were the same.
    
    Simon

    WRT minimum speed limits...
    
    Actually they do exist in the UK, for examples:
    
    The A38(M) from Spaghetti junction to Birmingham city centre
    
    Dartford crossing in the tunnels 
    
    They are shown as white numbers on a blue circle with a white border.

  > therefore easy to overtake. Its the 'you aint getting past me !!' *$%�@@ 
  > I dont like.
    
  > eg; You approach a Flat capped *** in his 2.0i, you are doing 60, he is 
  > doing 35/40, you go to overtake and pow, he floors it, requiring you to
  > do Mach 1.0 to pass, so you dont. Out of every bend he does this, then 
  > slows to 30 into the next (bends which anyone with any ability can take at 
  > >55). 
    
  > Anyone else had to suffer this one ?
    
    Something similar a couple of years ago on the way home from work. Had 
    been behind a car for a mile or two, doing about 35 down a country lane. 
    When we came to a stretch of straight road safe enough to overtake, I 
    pulled out to overtake, and found myself in a drag-race with this old git 
    who's car easily out-performed mine. I did just about get past him, but 
    not before he'd nearly caused an accident at the next bend.
    
    A heated verbal exchange ensued, at the road side. So downright
    offensive was his attitude it was all I could do to stop myself ramming
    his flat cap down his throat, but his ignition keys did end up some
    distance into an adjacent field (well as far as I could throw them
    anyway). By chance, I saw him on Monday night - the first time since
    the incident about three years ago - in the same car, wearing the same
    hat. I kept behind him this time.
    
    Phil Gill.
                                    

    
    And your dad never spoke to you again after that did he Phil?
    
    Matt

    RE 42
    That was me that, who drove behind you - I actually pushed that car off
    the road - I was going to do it to you but you pulled over..
    I now push cars of the road at least twice a week!!!! But only if 
    they are going to slow .....
    Or wearing a flat cap!!!!!!!!
    
                                 
    

    For those who get frustrated but are just not prepared to risk a dent
    by pushing their way through: a very effective way to make a nuisance
    of y�urself is to fit 90/110 Watt bulbs to your "little tank".
    I fit one on most of our motorbikes as one single 55/60Watt bulb is
    half of what the average car carries and is just not enough for long-
    distance travel at night. That is, if the alternator will pull it 
    (my MZ's 35W 6V hardly glows), and mind you I do adjust the beam so 
    as not to blind normal traffic.
    Two of these shine rather brightly.....so only contemplate fitting them
    if you normally don't use undimmed lights.  Btw, there's a 110/135
    availeble too, albeit at a horendous price., but these will give you
    270 Watt under your finger instead of 110 and without showing it off!
    
    Peter
    

Are these H4 bulbs?  I've seen 80/150 H4s advertised here for
about $20 or so...

Tim

    
    ...I had 140 watt lamps on my Manta a few years ago, 4 in the headlamps
    and 4 in the Spots....
    
    a word of warning though, your standard car wiring isn't designed to
    drive these sort of lamps and will either melt or catch fire unless you
    uprate it - hopefully, the #$%# who stole two of the spots from my
    Manta discovered this to his cost when he tried to use them. 
    
    And yes these are your standard fit Quartz-halogen lamps...
    

    Graham               

    This is a busy topic isnt it (and there are no nuts!)??

    As a general observation - anything which encourages speed to rise
    would be of doubtful benefit. Any accidents which were to still happen
    would be worse. I am unconvinced that the reduction in accidents would
    be significant. Those caused by frustrated overtakers would be reduced,
    loss of control at speed, skids, misjudgement of others' speed and
    direction  etc would all at best stay the same and would probably
    increase.
          
    The A1 in Yorkshire is being upgraded, well 13miles of it, to motorway
    standard at a cost of 500million pounds. This, it is claimed and I
    don't dispute it, will reduce by 15 the number of deaths and accidents
    by 400 per year. If increased road safety and "throughput" were as
    simple and obvious as removing people driving too slowly, either by
    speeding them up or taking them off the road then this course of action
    would have been taken years ago.
    
    Andrew

    Hey Andrew, no sweat, that driving t�� fast leads to increased risc I
    grant you but be realistic, the anti-social and incompetent behavior of
    the examples in here do just the same or even worse. 
    
    You wanted back to the base note? Then re-read it: it wasn't about 
    speeding or driving too fast, it was about incompetence! 
    I'm all for raising driving quality and if this would eventualy lead 
    to me being taken off, well then that's in my own interest! A driving 
    license is NOT a right. As it is they are given too soon too easily and 
    the lack of regular testing is absolutely unacceptable. This has lead to 
    too many incompetent drivers on the road, th�t's the problem, not the 
    able ones. 
    
    Peter                      

    I clearly need a best friend.
    
    I have re-read .0, more times than you would know. It nowhere contains
    the word competence. It is an appeal for people driving slowly to go
    faster. I'm not an incompetent driver, not a good one either in all
    probability, but there are times when I do not drive as fast as
    conditions and speed limits would allow. It is that kind of driving
    which the base note questioned. Competence showed up much later. I have
    always accepted that really slow driving is not a good thing. In .-1 I
    asked why, if the proposal was going to improve rad safety as claimed,
    it had not been carried out already.
    
    Personally I doubt that a significant percentage of "slow" drivers are
    doing it due to lack of competence, I would suggest that they are doing
    it from choice. I wonder how the supporters of the "SPUD" (SPeed Up
    Driving) campaign defend the removal of freedom of choice to drive
    slower than the person behind wishes them to?
    
    Andrew

    I agree that there is a problem with people driving slowly.
    
    But I don't accept that the problem is exclusively their speed.
    
    The problem is, I think, one of speed combined with position on the
    road, and consideration of other road users.
    
    What I appreciate about some people who are driving slower than I wish
    to is when: they keep to the near-side rather than the crown of the
    road, when they indicate that it is possible to overtake, when they
    stop to allow the queue to get past.  In any of these circumstances I
    make a point of indicating thanks.
    
    One technique I've picked up from driving in France is of using the
    indicator, rather than blazing headlights, to 'ask' someone to let me
    overtake.  It works well on motorways and dual carriageways.

    It is quite interesting reading the replies in this topic and it would
    seem that most are in favour of removing the "slower driver" from the
    road.
    
    What intrest me is what kind of vehicles these people drive who wish an
    increase in speed or the intimidation of "slower drivers".
    Of course many who work for Digital will be driving company vehicles
    and therefore do not suffer the cost incured and worries of private
    vehicle owners, such as MPG, wear and tear and insurance.
    If the vehicle is not your own it is quite easy to abuse it, because
    ultimatley you will not have to sell it on, or pay out for services
    etc!!                                                                                                                                                                                                 
     
    Also if say the speed limit was increased to, for example, 80 on A roads
    would a driver doing 60 still be classed as slow or would this be ok ?
      
    Devils Advocate.
    

>    and therefore do not suffer the cost incured and worries of private
>    vehicle owners, such as MPG, wear and tear and insurance.
>    If the vehicle is not your own it is quite easy to abuse it, because
>    ultimatley you will not have to sell it on, or pay out for services

I have a company car, and I still have to worry about fuel consumption
(like most others I have to buy my own petrol), wear and tear (if the
tyres or whatever wear down to quickly, the lease company won't pay, and
the cost centres aren't obliged to pay either) and insurance does impact
the vehicle cost.

As far as abusing the vehicle goes, I, and I guess most others, do try
to look after the car even if it doesn't belong to me; I don't particularly
want to be driving around in some deteriorating heap of junk!  (Even if my
car currently has a dent in the side where someone parked into it)

Finally, on the subject of intimidation, I don't believe in harassing other
drivers, no matter how irate I'm getting, as winding up an already unsafe
(IMO) motorist is not likely to improve matters...

Chris.

    re.56
    I find it hard to believe that you personaly would be paying out the same 
    on your company vehicle as you would were it your own. For example;
    Who pays for your services?
    And who is paying for the dent to be repaired ?
    Most private users pay for there own servicing and pay the first 100 -
    300 pound on there insurance!!!

>    I find it hard to believe that you personaly would be paying out the same 
>    on your company vehicle as you would were it your own.

I don't recall saying anything of the sort, but, if you want to nit pick,
I guess that the #1000 a year extra tax I pay for the privelege of having
a company car more than covers the examples you gave.

The point I was trying to make wasn't one of relative expense or lack of
it, I was attempting to point out that company car drivers aren't necessarily
hooligans on wheels who couldn't give a toss about damaging their car or
anyone else's.

Chris.

    I think this thing about Company Cars being badly treated is a bit of a
    myth.  I've had my car for a few months now, and I'm not aware of
    driving it any differently to my own car.  Likewise any other company
    car drivers I know.
    
    Mikef 

    My 2p.

    People drive "slow" because either

    1.  they have all the time in the world...doesn't the air smell good
    	and the is sun shining, and life iisss goood yes! etc... feeling. 

    2.	they have a nearly empty tank. "Oh err! and 10 miles to the nearest
    	petrol station." How many times has that happened to you? OK maybe
    	not many but it may be the reason why the Lotus Carlton in front is
    	doing 45mph.
    	
    3.	the car has a problem. "Oh s**t this car is a death trap. I must get
    	the brakes fixed" or "where is that noise. Only seems to happen at
    	xxMPH"

    4.	there is an obstruction or problem on the road."Who's that idiot	
    	behind me trying to pass. We'll both have accident if he's not	
    	careful. I'm going to slow down ( ..and move over if I can)"
    

    I sure there are a lot of other reasons for travelling slow. The
    biggest reason I can see about deciding how fast (or slow) you are
    going to drive, other than plain commonsense decisions, is the fact we
    are all human beings. Being human means we are individuals and have a
    choice.
    
    Dave

    			

    I am not saying that company car drivers are the hooligans of the road and  
    I do not recall saying that. The point I am making is that it is quite
    smug to be sat in a 2.0 litre BMW or Calibra or other power vehicle
    (that your only paying a 1000 pounds a year for) and intimidate some 
    poor woman / old man or young learner in a 1 litre Fiesta or similar 
    less powerd car.   
    Some are less fortunate than others in more ways than mere money
    The driver of the car infront may be disabled in some way or may have
    just had bad news deliverd and up roars this idiot flashing their lights
    and driving a foot behind.
    And I do not believe that company car owners treat there cars as if
    they were there own - The point that I am making is that it is easy to be
    less flippent about an article when it is not your own, I dont believe
    the string of Cavaliers and Mondeos that surge down the fast lane at
    close to 100mph are private vehicles or those that hit the sleeping
    policemen as they exit the carpark at a ridiculous speed are either.
    Yes there are people who respect their cars and other road users
     - But not all.... 

    re-1
    I don't believe the mix of people who treat a car badly if its their
    own to those who treat it badly if its a company car is any different. 
    You can see just as many people going over the speed bumps outside the
    Warrington office at speed in what -seem- to be non-company cars as
    you do Calibras/Cavaliers/BMWs etc.  The assumption that someone treats
    a car badly because its a company car has always struck me as a bit
    silly.
    
    I agree about not hassling other road users tho, having been hassled
    last night for doing less than 50 in a 40 zone, and by someone in a
    Sierra wearing a hat!  (The driver was in a hat, not the Sierra).
    
    Mikef

    Ah but would you, if you had spent 20.000 pounds on one of the cars
    mentioned, throw it over a speed bump if it were your own ?
    The private vehicles you speak of at there most expensive are around
    7000 pounds and ill bet the higher the cost the more respect there is
    for their vehicle...
    I personaly think it is 'silly' to believe that someone
    who has a company car would treat it the same had they paid the entire
    cost for the vehicle!!! I think some people have had it too good for to
    long and forgotten what the real world is like....

>    I personaly think it is 'silly' to believe that someone
>    who has a company car would treat it the same had they paid the entire
>    cost for the vehicle!!! I think some people have had it too good for to
>    long and forgotten what the real world is like....

I really can't see why you consider it to be `silly'; I can guarantee
you that I drive my company car in *exactly* the same manner that I
drove when I had to pay for my own car.  As I've already stated, I don't
want to drive around in something that's mechanically compromised, or looks
horrible, whether I own the thing or not.

As far as the `too good for too long' comment goes, surely you jest.  I
won't go into the technicalities, as others have more eloquently argued
the benefits of opting out of the scheme (the name Heather Thomas springs
to mind for some reason...  :)

Chris.

    Chris 
    Paranoia!!!The comment you quote from was not aimed at you, it was a
    general statement.
    And I do not "jest" as you put it - my argument still stands, if the car
    you drive was your own you would not drive or treat it the same...
     

>>my argument still stands, if the car you drive was your own you would not
>>drive or treat it the same...

Perhaps you wouldn't, but that doesn't mean that everyone wouldn't.

    Someone a couple of replies back made an intelligent comment that we are
    all individuals and behave differently - so please don't make any
    assumptions about how I drive.  I've been lucky enough to have a
    company car for 3 months, after 3 years of working for one, and I don't
    treat it any differently to the way I treat my own car - at all.  The
    fact that its a lease car never enters my head - well, the only time it
    did was when this week when I got quotes for the insurance on my own
    car, and I thought 'glad I only have to fork this much out once'!
    
    I certainly wouldn't hassle anyone driving slowly in either a lease car
    or my own car. (Isn't that what this string is about?).
    
    
    Mikef

    Well   I have to be honest, I had three different Company cars in the
    last few years with other Companies and everyone was fit for nothing
    after two years. I do occassionally forget I now have to pay for my own
    car in its entirity and take a speed bump at 90mph.... :-)
    				Brian

Paying more for a car does not make you look after it. Generally speaking, the
more money people have, the less respect they have for anything!

Dave.

    Well certainly hit a few nerves here, of course your not going to say 
    "Oh yes I do drive my company car badly " your writing about the car
    your company has supplied you on that companies notes file ..
    
    Only last week whilst driving to work I had some jerk whiz past me (on a
    sharp bend) after intimidating me in a 16v . Any way
    after screwing his car past me he came upon a string of traffic which he
    could not possibly pass - yet still he had to drive about a yard away 
    from the car in front ...Why ? I do not know !!!! - and that car was 
    infront of me all the way, strangley enough, into Digitals car park - What 
    a surprise!!! And I see it every morning now.
    Now I know if I said to that person "Do you treat your car in a bad
    way?", he will say "No of course not...."
    I know not all people drive their cars in this sort of manner, but how
    many people do we see every day who drive in a simlar way, and how
    many of those, if asked, would their cars be company owned????
    
    
     
    
    
    bumper 

    I have always driven cars fairly hard.  Not abused them, you
    understand, just used more of the performance available.  Citro�ns seem
    to thrive on it.  In fact, I don't think any car I've had has given me
    problems that seemed directly related to the way I drove them.  This
    applies equally to the private and company cars I've had.
    
    The way I've driven them has never borne any relationship to whether
    they were mine or not.  I had a company Maestro that I was extremely
    fond of, washed every week, filled with Shell Advanced (remember that?)
    and argued with the garage that did the servicing.  And drove it like a
    maniac.  When I changed jobs, I bought a Citro�n GSA, a lovely car that
    I smashed up a couple of weeks later....
    
    In all cases, the car I'm driving is "mine", it's an extension of me. 
    To an extent "I" take on the character of the car I'm driving, with say
    a SAAB 900, I'm big and ponderous and change lanes on the motorway
    slowly and without giving a damn how fast they're coming up behind me,
    with a Renault 5 I'm small and nippy, corner on the door-handles and
    lean over like a bike racer.
    
    Nowadays, I drive down to Bristol every weekend, dead on 70 indicated
    all the way (where achievable) and get quite good fuel consumption.  I
    haven't timed it exactly, but the journey time seems no greater than
    Mr Hyde managed.  Over about 70-80, adding mph tends to be a
    diminishing-returns type exercise anyway.
    
    I guess I ought to start saving up for a hat....
    
    Richard
    

     Remember those old films where the jolly motorist in front moves over
    and waves the chap behind past with a smile?
    Well it happened to me on a twisty but fast derestricted in the lakes
    this weekend, I thought he'd broken down or something, but no he
    was just being POLITE!
    Wonderfull.......
    
    Matt.

    It has been shown by the California police that there is a "natural"
    speed for a given section of road regardless of posted speed limits
    that the trafic wants to go.. problem in US is some hard heads still
    what to go the posted limit when the 80th percentile think the proper
    speed is much higher..
    
    us
    jeff
    

    Remember it is not speed that kills...it's the sudden stops.  As a race
    car driver I hate slow starts in a race..everyone does not accelerate
    as fast and you invariably have problems...Its the differance in speed
    that is the problem not the absoute speed.
    
    jeff

    Cars are made with rubber air inflated tires and springs and shocks.  A
    good car should be able to take rail road crossing or speed bumbs
    easily at speed especialy expensive cars. (else what did you pay for)
    Cars are a lot tuffer that some people drive.  Unless you are keeping
    it for a museum or something my attitude is to drive!  Just what it was
    made to do.  Going really slow over thoes things only agavates the
    drivers behing and make them drive more aggressively.
    
    jeff
    

    Years ago I had company cars and I drove them pretty hard.  But they
    were very well maintained as well.  I would have no qualms about
    purchasing one of those 'hard driven' cars.
    
    But the race driver has a point.  It is the difference in speed that
    can create a dangerous situation.  Speed limits do not always reflect
    the best or safest speed.  The danger comes when someone wants to drive
    considerably slower (or faster) than the rest of the traffic. 
    Eventually this will lead to some frustrated following driver passing
    under unsafe conditions.  I think the point of the base note is that
    driving too slowly (or to fast) can create an unsafe situation.
    
    As long as we're noting about too slow and too fast and company cars
    and fellow deccies;  My pet peeve is unsafe lane changes.  I have to
    believe that many unexplained traffic slowdowns are caused by some
    impatient driver who MUST change to a different lane, even if there is
    not enough room to move over.  The driver who is now following usually
    must slow down and the car behind slows even more and the chain
    reaction can often stop traffic 5 or 10 cars back.  I look at someone
    who jumps in front of me when there is not enough room as though they
    are *stealing my safety*.  Not a very nice thing to do.  Sometimes this
    causes a collision 5 or 10 cars behind and the safety thief goes on
    his/her merry way while someone back there might have a visit to the
    hospital.  I don't care how much of a hurry you are in, DO NOT steal
    safety from others.
    
    flame off
    
    grins,
    bob