Conference terri::cars_uk

    Yes I had exactly the same problem.
    
    I bought a Ford Fiesta new in '89 which was written off in an accident
    in February '90. It was low mileage (5000) FSH, as new condition.
    
    I too was insured through RAC insurance, and the insurance company
    payout was the "trade-in" price.
    
    I queried it with RAC insurance services and they just said "that offer
    sounds about right". So I took it in the end but was most unhappy.
    
    Some policies offer a "new for old" replacement if the vehicle is less
    than 1 year old, I'd go for that if ever I get a new car again.
    
    Roger  

    Phil,
    
        You don't have to accept their offer. Insurance Companies always
    try it on. They want to offer you the least money they can get away
    with. Most people cannot manage without a car whilst any negotiations
    are happening so they just accept the first offer that's made.
    
    If you don't need the car desparately tell them you don't accept their
    offer. I did exactly this and got the offer raised from 3000 to 3500
    pounds when my car was written off some years ago. They will ask you to
    justify why you don't accept their first offer but I'm sure you can
    manage that.
    
    It's worth trying anyway.
    
    Andy.

    Thanks Roger & Andy,
    
    The base note should have referred to Note 2210 (Note 1806 is another
    example of the same problem!)
    
    This is the third consideration of the offer that the Insurance Company
    have made. I have also written to them detailing, with enclosures, why
    I don't accept their offer, no change.
    They have so far increased their original offer by �200 and now say
    that's final.
    We are really struggling without the car. I think they deliberately
    delay the process to force the issue. No skin off their nose!
    
    I would have thought that the RAC should ensure the consumer is
    protected against this type of problem. Should they not be representing
    the interests of the motorist!
    
    Also if Ford know about the same problem why don't they either advise,
    or build in cover for the residual themselves?
    
    I've threatened the Insurance Company with RAC Insurance, RAC Legal
    Services, Ford and the Insurance Ombudsman.
    You get the impression they KNOW they'll win in the end....
    
    I am most UNHAPPY :-(((
    
                                                            

    Don't threaten, take it to the Ombudsman. You've got nothing to lose,
    except the time it takes.
    
    Laurie.

    By threatened I meant that I advised them that I would be taking the
    issue up with wide representation from the motor and insurance
    industries. I was hoping to get a reaction.... Not... :-(
    
    As it stands, I can't get a replacement vehicle with the money offered.
    I just wonder if all the time and effort will be worthwhile, but there
    again that's what most people think. Then it happens again and again.
    maybe this time things will be different :-)
    
    And I will be losing all the time I take issue I am still paying off
    the credit company (more money than the outstanding figure
    diminishes...)
    
    And the Insurance Company know it!
    

re.5:

The reason the insurance company won't budge is because they know they have
the upper hand. They are a large corporate entity who have everything to gain by
holding your money as long as they can, knowing that most give in. Remember,
they are not experiencing any pain and you are. You need to turn the tables.
I've played this game and won. I wrote to my insurance company every week and
followed up with telephone calls to let them know what I thought of them. They
paid up the full value of the car, in order to get me off their back. It took
two months. The tactic that I find works best is to write letters that are
ever so slightly eccentric. The frequency of the letters and this combined will
convince them they are dealing with a nutter who won't give up.

Dave.

    
    
    I also refused the first offer after my car was stolen and after 2/3
    letters to the insurers and brokers managed to get the offer improved.
    
    

If you are happy to replace your stolen vechicle with one of the same age,
model and condition in a garage or better still two or three give the details
to the insurance company and let them haggle on your behalf.

	I had the same problem a couple of years ago when my wifes 2 year old
Nova was stolen , it had only 4000 miles on the clock and no FSH but was used
every day. DIRECT were very good paid up on the month but I didnt accept there
first offer . It was hard to find one similar but aventually a higher milage
one appeared on a forecourt and that seemed to convince them.



						Stuart

    
    Actually you'll find that if you replace *your* stolen car with
    *another* stolen car then you'll be OK..... 8^)
    
    Nigel
    

    Whats FSH?

    �Whats FSH?
    
    You obviusly don't read the small ads very often :-)
    
    FSH = Full Service History
    
    Royston

    re: -9
    Don't joke.
    The reason I went for a new car in the first place was because I had
    bought, unknown to me, a stolen car. We had owned this car from 18 months
    old for 2 years and then the police told us it was stolen. The theives
    only went and kept detailed records of their activities, they even had
    a contact in the DVLA - steal to order.
    I wanted a new car to ensure I didn't have any problems ;-(
    
    re: -8
    I've already asked the Insurance company to replace the stolen car
    with an equivalent model. They refused!
    
    Are there any other consumer bodies I should be contacting to put
    pressure on the Insurance Company?
    
                              

	If you actually want the same again why not locate such a
	vehicle for sale and buy it, thus forcing the issue. 

	Or, and this may be more useful, you might consider using
	one of these people who specialise in negotiating claims.
	They'll want a fee though.

	-John

    >>> Convince them they are dealing with a nutter...
    
    I'd be happy to provide references, Phil    :-)

    Haven't you got a Ford Escort Martin? ;-)
    What's the alarm like?

    
    >    What's the alarm like?
    
    worth more than the car probably!
    
    
    Kendra

    Still waiting contact from the Ombudsman....
    For future noters information the contact details as follows:-
    
    Insurance Ombudsman Bureau
    Citygate 1
    135 Park Street
    London
    SE1 9EA
    
    Tel. 071-928-7600
    

    The Insurance Ombudsman can only do something if.....
    
    a)	The offending Insurance Company is a member of the
    	Insurance Ombudsman Bureau
    b)	A Senior Manager has confirmed that a final valuation offer
    	has been made.
    
    Both satisfied, so now I have to write to:-
    Lloyd's of London
    Complaints Advisory Department
    1 Lime Street
    London, EC3M 7HA.
    
    Things are really moving now...... (NOT) :-(
    No response from any other letters (yet).
    

    I've been away. Hence the pause...
    
    The Sunday Times have been covering the Insurance Company Scandal, in
    the INSIGHT column, over the last two weeks.
    You wouldn't believe the stories.
    Looks like a very common occurence, check your insurance folks!
    
    btw: The Ford 2 year Value Guranteed Cover for stolen vehicles come in
         at 100 pounds one-off payment for 2 year cover.
    
                                                                    

  This might sound daft but why not try the BBC ? Phone Watchdog or That's Life.


Have you not noticed how companies start taking notice when a journalist with
a camera crew knocks on their door?

Just a thought.

regards

IWM

    Thanks for the suggestion.
    I wrote to That's Life but got no reply.
    
    I also wrote to the Sunday Times no reply.
    The RAC advised me to accept the offer.
    Ford also advised me to accept the offer.
    The Insurance Ombudsman and Lloyds Complaints Advisory Dept. process
    was going to cause big delays.
    
    Not much left to try, meanwhile I was left paying for a car I didn't
    have.
    I lost money and accepted... they ground me down :-(
    
    But... I have asked for a refund on my insurance premiums from date of
    theft and a pro-rata refund on payments for the difference between what
    I thought it was insured for and what they payed out!
    
    What more can I say?
    
    Phil.

Are you a member of the Consumer Association?

The back page of Which? magazine always has a couple of stories of
folks who have had their legal problems sorted out. It costs extra,
but may be worth it.

Whether you are a member or not, write to them anyway giving details
of what has happened. At the very least they may save someone else
from getting into the same situation.

mb

    A bit late now, I realise, but....
    
    What did they offer against what did you think you should have got ?
    
    Firstly, unless it is an agreed value policy, usually older or unique
    cars, you don't actually insure your car for a prticular value. The
    value you give isused by the Insurance Company to give them an
    indication as to whether there is anything they should know. For
    example, a high value might indicate that the car had been customised.
    Therefore, they go by market value when it is lost. However, they will
    use that value if you quote a very low figure, because their attitude
    is that if you only think it was worth #100 and now the car has
    dissappeared, maybe the car was in worse condition then you are now
    claiming. This is unfair since they won't do it the other way around.
    
    Assuming that you are correct in your assessment of the car's value,
    then a full description of the car, any comments from a garage that
    services it and as many adverts as you can get from the local Trader
    supporting your claim as possible and any photographs you have and a
    letter will normally do the trick.
    
    In the case of arguments about offer levels, the Ombudsman is pretty
    useless. In fact, whilst it works from time to time, they're usually
    pretty useless. However, it is extremely unusual for an Insurance
    Company to allow something to go to court. There has to be serious
    money at stake before they will let this happen. For two reasons -
    firstly they don't like the publicity, secondly Insurance Companies,
    Banks and loan companies are pretty evenly hated by the County or Small
    Claims court judges.
    
    In the case of an insurance dispute, the judge will look for what he
    feels is the correct solution, but be heavily swayed by his opinion on
    who has acted the most reasonably. If you have the evidence above and
    you've dealt with the company fairly, you'd almost certainly win.
    
    Lastly, in the case of your refund - good luck and they may give it to
    you to get rid of you. However, the small print of your policy will
    point out that you insured against something happening within a 12 mth
    period. This event happened so you premium has been "used". Normally
    the most they are prepared to do is to substitute another car on the
    policy; frequently they will not even do this.
    
    If ever you have a car of exceptional condition or rarity and you do
    not have an agreed value policy (or even if you do) keep photos of it
    and CURRENT garage or RAC/AA reports supporting it's value in the event
    that the car dissappears.

    On the basis of previous insurance hassles, as soon as I was convinced
    the car was stolen I would have put it in the hands of a loss adjuster.
    
    They will handle the aggravation for you for a modest fee.
    
    They also take the approach that you want a replacement of equivalent
    specification and claim what it costs.
    
    My use of them was with a claim for repairs following storm damage. 
    The loss adjuster found the necessary skilled craftsmen to rebuild
    moulded plaster architrave -- the insurance company settled for the
    invoiced cost.
    
    The other use I know of was a farming friend who lost a barn full
    of hay.  The insurance co. offered so much per ton, but they finally
    paid the replacement cost for the hay the loss adjuster bought.
    
    I think also that if you say your taking it to a loss adjuster the
    insurance co. attitude changes and you're viewed as likely to be more
    than average in determination.

    Thames Valley Police now believe they have recovered my stolen car.
    It was used in an armed bank robbery in London.
    Now awaiting further details.
    Watch this space.

    What they describe as a car, what you think of as a car, and what the
    insurance company consider as a car can be three entirely different
    things.
    
    A friend was told by the police that they'd recovered his car.  What
    they meant was they'd got many of the major bits back - the wiring,
    wheels, seats, carpets and trim were gone, and the roof had been cut
    off, but was there.
    
    The insurance company tried to settle for compensation less the
    residual value of the bits.