Conference terri::cars_uk

	... one of those locks that fit between the
	handbrake and the gear lever so that the 
	car has its handbrake locked on and is in first.

	Dave

    An autolok.  Conversation when wife rings up to say that the car has
    been stolen  me:"Was the Autolok on ?"  wife:"er no".  Some months
    later after the car has been straightened and reuphostered I get a
    phone call.  wife:"I've used the Autolok but now reverse doesn't work". 
    Me:"I don't believe you" (not the exact words but she got the message). 
    She got home eventually, only having to get out a few times to push the
    car backwards when manouevering.
    Sure enough she must have crushed the top of the gear lever and it had
    to go to the garage to be repaired. (It's an Astra)
    
    However I can still say the car has never been stoled with the Autolok
    on, even parked for a week in the back streets of Paris.
    
    tp

Xtine,

Try this sign in the windscreen, I bet it would work...

	"This car belongs to Xtine..."

    Probably....
    
    Even better... 
    
    "This car belongs to Xtine's mum..."
    
    
    Xtine

    Get one of those thingmys that clamps on your steering wheel... the one
    I bought (because Digital wouldn't pay to put an alarm on my car) came
    with a money back guarantee of �n00 if your car was stolen with it fitted
    (and you still had both keys) (sorry this is a bit vague...). At the
    rate my Fiesta RS was being stolen, I could have made a lot of money
    (except that they haven't bothered since I got the lock).
    
    I also take the fuse out of the fuel pump (which is easy on a Fiesta
    'cos it's under the dash board). (Hope that there are no car thieves
    reading this...)
    
    Or you could get a Skoda (as in "What's the difference between a sheep
    and a Skoda")
    
    You get embarassed if one of your friends sees you in the back of a
    Skoda.

    My father always used to leave one of his cars unlocked and on the road
    outside the house,the only time it gor broken into......they stole a
    microwave that my dad had just bought and had left in the car!

    If your Fiesta hasn't been stolen since it was fitted that sounds like
    its working...
    
    Any idea of the make? Where did you get it?
    
    
    Xtine

Dont think you'd be too popular with Mr Police, but I did hear of a chap that
had a block of wood with some nails pointing up from it.  He would slide the
block under his seat cover, and obviously, if someone went to steal the car, they
would need to sit down to drive it....


A bit drastic, but you could spot anyone that had tried to steal your car, by 
the way they walked or sat !!!!

    A Stop-Lok: dead easy to use, can't forget about, can't sit on it by
    accident, very visible, AA recommended.

	They also offer the money towards your lost No-Claim discount if your
car was stolen whilst the NIGHTSTICK was fitted.

	They are not sold through retailers, but advertised frequently on 210.

	They also had pamphlets on it in the DECpark Shop, don't know if they
are still there.

				Malcolm.

    The other nice thing about the Nightstick is that if you are attacked
    when you are getting back into your car you can beat the crap out of
    your assailant in self defence with it.
    
    I think it's also got a torch in one end.
    
    Richard

    
.8>>   If your Fiesta hasn't been stolen since it was fitted that sounds like
.8>>   its working...
    
.8>>   Any idea of the make? Where did you get it?
    
    Can't remember... it's Red, I got it in Halfords and it says "RING" on
    the key... (I just remember the �n00 cash back offer (where I think n =
    2).                    

    How does it work?  Does it just make the steering wheel too bulky to
    turn?
    
    
    Xtine

>>  <<< Note 2129.12 by PEKING::SMITHRW "Off-duty Rab C Nesbit stunt double" >>>
>>
>>    The other nice thing about the Nightstick is that if you are attacked
>>    when you are getting back into your car you can beat the crap out of
>>    your assailant in self defence with it.
    
>>    I think it's also got a torch in one end.
  
    So you can then see who it was you clobbered? :-)
      
    Another Richard
    

    Exactly!
    
    8*)
    
    Richard

But first of all you must ask your attacker to stand still a while, until you
take the thing off the steering wheel and fiddle about getting the torch to work.

I'm sure any would be assailant would be only too happy to oblige ;-)


Warren

One of my neigbours has got a softtop XR3i which he leaves parked on the
street.  His deterant is a Wheel-Clamp!!

As he does take it off from time to time I presume it not just the local boys
in blue taking a dislike to him.

Gary

	Yes, it's true.  The Nightstick is for sale in the DECpark shop at a 20% 
discount - �74.99.  It also claims that you can get a 20% discount from your 
insurance premiums if you use it.

	They display says about how it is advertised on radio, TV and "print (?)"
and then proceeds to list the American stations!!!

	I am under the impression that one may only obtain a discount on 
Insurance premiums if you have an alarm fitted to the car THAT IMMOBILISES THE
ENGINE!  I can't see that their claim for this is valid if that is the case.

	On that tack, as far as I can see, none of the new diesel cars that 
are fitted with manufacturers Alarms have engine immobilisers, the petrol ones 
do, but not the diesel ones, certainly not the Xantia.  I've asked for quotes
from fleet for the Xantia with VSL engine immobiliser.

				Malcolm.

RE:<<< Note 2129.19 by CMOTEC::POWELL "Nostalgia isn't what it used to be, is it?" >>>
    
� 	On that tack, as far as I can see, none of the new diesel cars that 
� are fitted with manufacturers Alarms have engine immobilisers, the petrol ones 
� do, but not the diesel ones, certainly not the Xantia.  I've asked for quotes
� from fleet for the Xantia with VSL engine immobiliser.

    My Pug 405 GLDT Estate has an immobiliser as standard, as, I believe
    does the whole range, petrol and diesel, save the "Style" (which seems
    to be some cheapo trim range).
    
    Laurie.

re .19 and .20;

I guess the immobilisor is some kind of switch, which disables the engine
management system.  But as diesels don't have one, I guess that makes it
harder to do - I wonder how the Pug system does it?

Peter.

My Mercedes 250 Diesel has an immobiliser - but I have no idea how its done.
Maybe it just cuts of the fuel supply ????

Karen

    the only way you could imobilize a diesel is cut off the fuel. The
    obvious way is interupt the supply to the injector pump solenoid. (Sort
    of like the old break the supply to the distributor before new
    fangled electronic thingumies came along). However, just like the old
    method this could be bypassed by a bit of wire between the terminal
    and the battery.
    
    You might have an aditional solenoid further back in the fuel pipe....
    but unlikely. My bet is on the simple solution above.
    
    
    Richard

    I wouldn't rate the VSL alarm.
    
    On the NISSAN 100 I had prior to leaving the scheme I discovered that
    they had fitted a ultrasonic alarm... really useful in a T-BAR...
    
    They came back out and fitted a Microwave as well... this was great you
    could now leave the roof off and the alarm didn't constantly go off...
    but you could also climb in the roof, rummage around, move from
    passenger side to drivers side etc etc... as long as you kept your eye
    on the little flashing light, and stopped moving when it speeded up...
    
    
    Xtine
         

	I read in the Xantia brochure, that the Diesel Xantia manufacturers 
Alarm system does not have an engine Immobiliser.  Hence my request for one
on my quote.
				Malcolm.

>	I read in the Xantia brochure, that the Diesel Xantia manufacturers 
>Alarm system does not have an engine Immobiliser.  Hence my request for one
>on my quote.
        
        I may be missing something here, but how is an ignition
        immobiliser going to work on a car with no ignition system?
        
        Ian.

    diesels do have a starter motor though , maybe it's a starter motor
    disabler.
    

    There are more ways to immobilise an engine than simply to kill the
    electrics...
    
    Laurie.

    read .23.... Note they say ENGINE imobilizer, not IGNITION imobiliser!.
    
    Richard

>>    read .23.... Note they say ENGINE imobilizer, not IGNITION imobiliser!.
        
        The author of .23 says that the Xantia immobilser is only
        offered as standard on the petrol models, not the diesel, and has
        therefore specified one on his quote.  If the one he has
        specified is the Citroen one, (with a keypad that requires a
        PIN number to be entered) then he will be out of luck as I 
        understand it is an 'ignition' immobiliser.  Of course, I may
        be wrong.
        
        Ian.

    re. convertibles / T-Tops
    
    Philips have a car alarm that has interior sensors (I think they call
    them Tritronic) which they say are suitable for convertables and will
    not go off just because the wind blows or a fly lands on the dashboard.
    Does anyone know if they are any good ?
    
    Jason.

>>    read .23.... Note they say ENGINE imobilizer, not IGNITION imobiliser!.
        
        The author of .23 says that the Xantia immobilser is only
        offered as standard on the petrol models, not the diesel, and has
        therefore specified one on his quote.  If the one he has
        specified is the Citroen one, (with a keypad that requires a
        PIN number to be entered) then he will be out of luck as I 
        understand it is an 'ignition' immobiliser.  Of course, I may
        be wrong.				     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	^^^^^^^^
        Ian.

	Yes - you are!  Never heard of VSL?

				Malcolm.

    Will you ALL start re-reading again please.....
    
    .19 (note nineteen!) questions if the Xantia STANDARD immobilizer works on
    Diesels, and goes on to state he's put a quote in for the VSL alarm. 
    
    I in .23 state how a diesel immobilizer might work (NOT an IGNITION
    immobilizer). 
    
    .30 states quite rightly that the Citroen one as fitted to the Xantia
    is an IGNITION immobiliser.
    
    >32 I don't know what your trying to point out, nowhere does he refute
    the existance of the VSL alarm, he's still talking about the Citroen!
    
    Richard

Well, my Dad has a K reg Astra diesel van, and it is fitted with an immobiliser
of some sort.  This uses the pin numbers from a clear plastic pad on the steering
column.  Apparently, this immobilises about 5 circuits on the van, leaving it
impossible to start without the correct id.  - this is a vauxhall system, and
pretty good I think.

Warren

    The diesel Discovery also has an engine immobiliser fitted as standard
    as part of the alarm system.  It appears to disable the starter
    circuit.
    
    Re .11 and the Nightstick.  I read a report somewhere (I think it was
    the Caravan Club magazine) that tested one.  They got it off the wheel
    in about 10 seconds by hitting it with a two pound hammer.  When they
    cut it in half they found no trace of the hardened steel tube inside
    that was meant ti resist hack sawing.  Needless to say the
    manufacturers said that they were modifying the design!
    
    Best sign I've seen in a parked car with a large doberman sat in it was
    "the dog's got the keys"
    
    Alan

    ... Nightstick 79 pounds (inc 20% discount) ???
    
    I saw this in the states for $60, about 45 pounds. Someone is making
    some serious money here :^)
    
    Find someone who's going to USA & send them to Wallmart !
    Wallmart is an ASDA/Halfords type superstore.
    
	Isnt the AA's Nightstick equivalent cheaper ?
    
    
    Tony.
    

	I heard this over the weekend - apparently, if the thief wants a 
particular car (stolen to order, I suppose) and finds one with a Steering Wheel
clamp or Nightstick type of protection, the usual thing now is to simply cut/saw
through the Steering Wheel either side of the device!!!!  A cheap Sports Wheel 
from Halfords and no-one would realise the car was stolen!

	If you see the construction of Steering Wheels, you'll realise just 
how easy this would be!!!  A simple Bolt Cutter would do.

				Malcolm.

i suppose the same technique could be used for the AutoLok, cut thorough the
base of the Gear Stick.  Either drive away with a very short gear stick, or take
in a bit of pipe to put around the stub of gear stick thats left.

Would this be as easy to replace ?

Dave D.

    
    I find this hard to believe...
    
    Surely it would be easier to cut the end of the night-stick so that
    it's flush with the rim of the steering-wheel...
    
    And second... I have one of those 'cheap' Halfords steering-wheels
    fitted to my car, and the new steering wheel required a different type
    of 'bush' fitted to allow it to be connected to the car... and it also
    took around 40 minutes for Halfords to fit the new wheel.
    
    Mind you, your note doesn't say, but I guess the theives could be
    towing the car away and then do the sawing bit at their leisure.
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen
                                                                    
    Ps: Just in case... the new wheel I had fitted was not for a pose 
    (although it does match the body colour of the car nicely)... Oh no... 
    My 205 came with a 2CV stylee steering wheel (very thin rim) and on long 
    journeys (like over 5 miles) my hands would go to sleep... (pins and 
    needles) !
    

    Forget that last bit of tripe on my part...
    
    I've just re-read .37 and understand it now....  
    
    I'll leave my reply for your amusement...
    
    Sheesh..

    Report in last nights Manchester evening news.
    
    An anti theft device invented in the NW has passed a series of
    stringent tests at the Motor Insurance Repair Research Centre.
    
    It is expected to be the ONLY mechanical means of protecting cars to be
    on the approved list of the Association of British Insurers.
    
    It retails at 160 squid. which will be recouped in under 2 years on
    insuance premiums. It clamps the gearbox in reverse and disables the
    engine and has defied all known methods of attack. It has been
    estimated it could take up to 5 HOURS for the most determined thief to
    crack using specialist equipment.
    
    35 cars fitted with this device have been attacked. Not one has been
    stolen. It is a push in lock by the drivers seat with over 5 million
    different combinations and a hardened steel bolt arresting the gear
    selection shaft. It cannot be drilled or picked and has beaten the most
    experienced locksmiths.
    
    More than 400 have been fitted with the device, NONE have been stolen.
    
    Most of the items in this Note can be bypassed by the professional
    crook in seconds.
    
    The system is available at distributers on Merseyside, Newcastle and
    Belfast. A nationwide chain is currently being set up.
    
    If I find out any more, like who the distributers are (the paper is
    worse than the BBC for not mentioning the company name!!!) I'll post it
    here, unless of course someone beats me to it!
    
    Mikef

    I too have read a report somewhere about this gismo, in this report
    they gave a locksmith free reign to have a go at it with whatever tools
    he chose (drill, hammer, chisle, crowbar etc.) eventually he gave up
    without cracking it.
    
    M:

    
    Better be damn sure not to lose the keys then.

No, not the wrong topic...

I saw a M5 BMW in the casino car-park a couple of years ago that had the
steering wheel removed ! What's the likelyhood that the car-thief will bring
a suitable spare with him ?

So maybe an option would be the quick-release steering wheels fitted on F1 cars.
How many hundreds of pounds do these cost ?      :-{

    A "customised" Morris Minor was seen in the Asda car park in Harrogate
    sans steering wheel a few weeks ago so this is obviously spreading.
    
    Andrew

	RE: _sans_ steering wheel.

	This gadget is reasonably well-known over here in France and not 
	all that expensive. Only problem is you have to carry the wheel 
	everywhere you go, although I suppose you could put it in the same 
	bag as the radio :-).

	The new, improved ones work differently, i.e. the steering wheel 
	stays in the car, but remains disengaged from the steering column 
	(will turn, but won't turn the wheels) until a small part is inserted 
	somewhere. That "key" is a disk with a unique set of grooves and 
	dimples on it. I suppose you can carry it in the same bag as the 
	removeable front panel of your radio...

    re: .41
    
    "The Barrier deadlock fits flush nito the floor of the vehicle and locks
    the gear lever into reverse, and immobilises by isolating the starter
    motor..."  "...Tomorrow's World ... failed to drill through the
    ...lock"  "... Priced at around �150, tel 051-489-4889 for more
    information"  Taken from the October 1993 edition of Car Hi-Fi.
    
    tp

    
    How' s this then......
     
    I parked my Cavalier GSI 2000 in a pub car park last night, fitted my
    Eagle Claw security device to the steering wheel and deadlocked the car
    (which also turns on the alarm).
    
    Returned to the car two hours later to find that it had been broken
    into by removing the drivers door lock and operating the micro-switch
    in the door. 
    
    The steering wheel AND the security device were missing along with two
    coats from the back seat. 
    
    Is there a second-hand market for these security devices, or did the thief 
    just want one to practice on?
    
    What do you have to do to protect your car......
    
    
    Jonathan
    

    This is the first time I've heard of a deadlock being overcome.
    
    If it is operated by a microswitch its not exactly a deadlock is it !
    
    Royston

A collegue of mine has has this done to his car about four times now.

At the motor show he mentioned this security weakness to a rep on the Vauxhall
stand and the rep sheepishly agreed it was a known weak point !!!!

Guess what it was a GSi2000 as well !

I think I put in here that the in-laws had their AVIS car nicked four days into
their holiday in Britain.

At the time I couldn't work out how they got past the dead-lock. Seems crazy that
you can get round it by removing the door lock and operating a microswitch.

For what it's worth I strongly believe that you should be able to protect your
property with 'offensive' systems rather than just 'defensive'. As long as you
have a recognised sign/emblem/warning that says "touch this and you could
incur personal injury", and the only way to activate it is to do something that
positively identifies you were trying to take the car (e.g. pressure on drivers
seat, engine running, clutch in, and go for 1st gear) then why be surprised
when the 12" steel spike rushes through the seat cushion ?
 

    RE.48 <<what do you use to protect your car>>
    
    I've got an Autolock (gearstick to handbrake), a Nightstick and an
    alarm(Vauxhall 902 alarm),deadlocks.
    
    Anyone know of better devices?
    
    Andy.

the nightstick and club are relatively easy for the determined thief to 
bypass - they simply cut the top off the gear lever, and force the
steering wheel out of shape (remember it is designed to be deformable),
or cut a piece out of it to release the bar.

The advantage you have is that it will probably come under the
"too difficult" category for most thieves - they'll move onto
a less well protected car.

(one additional option you might consider is getting large bolt fitted
to the floor of the car, and fitting a sturdy chain and padlock round the
steering wheel, and secure it to this bolt. It generates additional
hassle factor.)

The other commonly used alternative is to fit your own wheel clamp.

Peter.

I'd agree with .53.  IMHO you are never going to stop the professional car
thief if he wants your car.  All you can do is make it less of an easy target
for the casual thief or joyrider.  Those who steal cars to order are likely to
be deterred by nothing short of a team of commandos and Rottweilers with PMT!
:^)

You've just got to persuade the average car thief to take an easier target,
unfair as it may seem for Mr Easy Target!


Faz.

	These gearstick to handbrake deterants are absolutely useless.

	The theif will probably leave this till last as all he/she has to do is
remove the gearknob and then the deterant. Nearly all gearknobs are removeable,
especially on the Vauxhalls - this is how they replace the cable which lifts
the gate to reverse.

	The Knightstick is removeable by cutting the steering wheel.

	And if the alarm you have is operated via the deadlocks then that can 
be over come by removing the door handle.

	A pretty grim picture really - but as .-1 pointed out it will make yours
a little less desirable.

Dear Car Thief:

I have taken out the Engine Management System, Fuel Control Relay and several
other components that are needed to make this car go - unless you have �700 
worth of spares in your back pocket, you might have better luck elsewhere.

PS - the doors are unlocked - if you want the radio, help yourself - its C**P

Yours faithfully,


:-)

    
    I'm not saying that the gearstick knob on my Corsa is not removable,but
    i've tried like hell to twist it and it's never moved an inch.
    
    Are there any "GOOD" devices out there then?
    
    Andy.
    
    P.S. My alarm is activated by remote and I put the deadlocks on after.

�    I'm not saying that the gearstick knob on my Corsa is not removable,but
�    i've tried like hell to twist it and it's never moved an inch.

I'm sure it wouldn't take long to hacksaw through the gearstick though...

�    P.S. My alarm is activated by remote and I put the deadlocks on after.

There is at least one device manufactured (supposedly only for use by garages!)
that beams all the possible remote combinations at a car alarm until it switches
it off.

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but I really don't believe you can completely
protect your car.  I've got an alarm and one of those Metro Stoplocks on the
steering wheel.  They're supposed to be 100% effective in Police tests according
to the box.  I don't dispute the effectiveness of the device, but it won't stop
someone from sawing through the steering wheel to remove it!

I have since found the Stoplock works better if you use it as follows:

i)   Park the car.
ii)  Hide in the back of the car.
iii) As thief enters your car, club him/her to death with the Stoplock.
iv)  Repeat the above until their are no more thieves left, or you believe the
     pile of bodies around the car is a sufficient deterrent.


Faz.

P.S. I remember a sketch by Smith & Jones a few years back, where two yuppies
get out of their 911 turbos.  One presses a button, lights flash, sirens sound,
and the alarm is activated.  "No-one will steal that", he says.  The other
does the same, and his Porsche turns into a knackered old Robin reliant.  
"No-one will steal that!".

    The really clever thief will steal one of those AA relay wagons, and
    then just up your expensive cruiser complete with anti-theft devices,
    and tootle off!
    
    Andy

    I thought those Eagle Claw thingmys had a "�n00 money back if your car
    is stolen" offer. Maybe they'll wriggle out of it 'cos they only stole
    the steering wheel, but I'd be interested to know if you ever get the
    cash (unless it belongs to Digital like the free air miles...)

    The best deterent I heard of was a large unfriendly Alsation half
    asleep in the back of he car. The car got broken into and the thief got
    in. When he closed the door the dog woke up and started to bark very
    loudly. This scared the thief so much that he jumped up and knocked
    himself out on the roof.
    
    The owner returned to find the dog, once more asleep, and one would be
    thief unconcious in the drivers seat. The police were very happy to
    remove the thief with the help of the local ambulance service.
    
    Simon

    ...but with what offence was he charged - he certainly hadn't committed
    the "taking and driving away" offence !
    
    Terry

A friend of mine has a police trained Rottweiler.  Stopped at traffic lights in 
the city, when a thief reaches in through the open passenger window to help
himself to a briefcase on the passenger seat.  Afore-mentioned Rottweiler on the
rear seat helps himself to thief's arm, so my friend drives off at a jogging 
pace until he finds a handy constable.  The thief suffered no injury, the dog 
applied just enough pressure to hold him tight!  Certainly scared the 
proverbial out of him though!

Faz.

	RE:.63

	How about breaking and entering ?

	Andy

    I thought that only applied to houses
    
    Terry

    Doesn't sound as if anything was broken, & entering isn't a crime in
    itself. How about attempted burglary/robbery?

the breaking is involved in the entry. Unless no damage was done to the 
lock/door etc etc. And he did say that someone had *broken* in.

Mind you, I still don't know if that applies to cars. However, criminal 
damage will, not to mention attempted theft.

    
    A friend of mine has a Nissan 200sx Turbo so to protect it he got
    himself a sophisticated alarm, anti-tamper battery backup etc.......his
    house was burgled at the weekend and they took both sets of keys, now
    the tables are turned his car is a sitting duck the thieves have both
    sets of keys and can let themselves in, but he cant go near it until the
    alarm co. get someone out to disable it!!!
    
    Richard