Conference terri::cars_uk

�    HOW CAN THIS BE MY RESPONSIBILTY IF I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER CAR FLEET
�    PASSING ON VALUABLE INFORMATION SUCH AS THE REMINDER FROM THE LEASING
�    COMPANY THAT MY CAR IS DUE FOR AN MOT AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF NOT
    
    Firstly :
    
    If you own your own car, for which you are responsible, you do not
    get reminders to let you know your MOT is due to expire...
    
    Then again :
    
    I must admit, it seems that car fleet haven't passed on information
    which they should have done, BUT - don't you think you have *some*
    responsibility in ensuring that your car is 'road legal' ?
    
    Not being a [DEC] company car driver, I do not know if you ever see the
    information regarding MOT dates for your car - whereas expiry of road
    tax is something you should be aware of.  Whatever the case, I thought
    that having a company leasemobile was supposed to mean that if it
    needed to be 'off the road', that shouldn't bother you.  You get a car
    to 'fill in' whilst yours is being worked on.  Is that not the case ?
    
    J.R.

>    If you own your own car, for which you are responsible, you do not
>    get reminders to let you know your MOT is due to expire...

No. But you do have the MOT certificate with the expiry date on, or the log book
with the registration date on. 

Then again, you should know when your car is nearly 3 years old and you can
then do something about it! 

Out of interest. If you get pulled over without a valid MOT certificate, who's 
liable? The owner or the driver?


	Ian

RE:    <<< Note 2026.2 by KERNEL::FISCHERI "I can always sleep standing up" >>>

� Out of interest. If you get pulled over without a valid MOT certificate, who's 
� liable? The owner or the driver?
    
    Both. If the driver's untraceable, then it's the owner/registered
    keeper.
    
    Laurie.

    
    I know exactly when the lease is supposed to expire although Car Fleet 
    say otherwise and I kept asking various sources when I needed an MOT and
    was told that I would be notified as per the "guidelines" on VTX.
    
    That is hardly th point here - If they have been sent the information
    they must pass it on - especially as there is no chance of getting a
    new car before the lease expires because you cannot submit a quote
    until 3 months before that date...takes that long to get your quote
    acknowledged!
    
    Sharon

    
    If you own your own vehicle, I think that the Road Fund Licence
    reminder form that arrives in the post about a month before the due
    date does state on it that an MOT certificate will be required for
    renewal. This should give enough time for you to sort out the MOT for
    the vehicle. (This is assuming of course that the car has been taxed
    for the whole time since it was registered, and therefor that the MOT
    requirement date coinsides with the date for tax renewal - if it
    doesn't I suppose it is up to you to remember the date of first
    registration from the registration form..... ) 

    
    Also what seems to have been overlooked in here is that if you own your
    car you can get it mot'd and taxed the same day not 3 or 4 weeks later!
    
    Richard (young)
    

    
    I got the reminder from PHH (via fleet).
    
    I then received the tax disk BEFORE I'd had the MOT done.
    
    You are allowed to get the tax (14 days???) early, which is before the
    MOT is required. Seems like good sense to me, I'm surprised PHH thought
    of it!!!

>    renewal. This should give enough time for you to sort out the MOT for
>    the vehicle. (This is assuming of course that the car has been taxed
 

	It gives less than two weeks, my reminder for my tax renewal for 
	1st March came yesterday.


	Heather

    
    Well I managed to get an MOT this morning and spoke to someone at Hertz
    who said it would be tight but if I got the certificate in the post
    today, addressed to her and put a note with my address on it she could
    probably post the new tax disc to me on Monday or Tuesday.
    
    Sharon
     

Why not just stick a piece of paper in your windscreen saying "tax applied for"?

	Ian

Better still hire a car on the company.

Dave.

    re -.2
    
    I don't think a "Tax Applied For" sticker is worth the paper its
    written on in a policeman's eyes.
    
    Richard

Re: "Tax applied for"

There is no such offence as "not having an excise licence". The offence is "not 
displaying it". Therefore, applied for or not, it isn't displayed.

You can be nicked even if you have a disc, if it's lying on the floor where it fell.

The registered keeper is liable. 

>>
The registered keeper is liable. 
>>
    I always thought it was the responsibility of the driver to check that
    the car they were driving was legal - ie it's no excuse to say 'not my
    car' if the tyres are illegal - the driver is the one that gets the
    points/fine.

I think the difference is that the driver is liable for the car to be fit for road use - 
Tyres etc etc, whereas the keeper is liable for its documents - MOT, Excise Licence.

I was stopped once for "failure to display". I had infact payed for the
license just prior to being stopped, but the things which held it on
the windscreen was on its last legs, and it kept falling off.

When I was stopped, I explained this to the policeman, and started looking
around for it on the floor of the car ... but it was gone !!! My only
explanation was that it must have fallen out of the car somehow.

Anyway, he didn't believe me, and I was booked.

Several weeks later, I was summoned to court. I explained what had happened,
and showed them the receipt for payment of the license.

I was found guilty, but not fined.

So, yes, failure to display is an offence, but you appear to get fined for
failure to pay ...

    Strickly speaking you could display an expired tax disk, If you were to
    be stopped, the only offence would not having a valid disk. Its a bit
    harsh but as already mentioned having it in the car and not visible is
    the offence. I suspect the reason for the offence is that it makes
    plod's life easier. If you do not display a disk its a fair chance you
    don't have one, 2 offences for starters. Odds on chance no MOT, and in
    the event of an accident I wouldn't be supprised if there was valid
    insurance , the company would find a way of making it void , as
    techniclly it is not road worthy without an mot. Bit like driving round
    with a banner on the roof saying "Nick me"

A few years (4?) ago, the police stated that in their experience, over 30% of untaxed 
vehicles were uninsured.

Insurance is not invalid because there is not a valid MOT certificate, per se.

The actual offence is not displaying a VALID excise licence. Valid as in current, 
appropriate class, correct vehicle etc etc. Displaying an old/incorrect licence could 
potentially lay you open to fraud charges.

RE:        <<< Note 2026.18 by SBPUS4::Mark "at the trailing edge....." >>>

    Mark,
    
    You appear to be suffering from the delusion that we can all read notes
    of >80 columns. We can't. This is the fourth one in a row I've
    attempted to read... I've reformated it to make life easier for the
    majority of we readers.
    
    Kind regards, Laurie.
    
    
    A few years (4?) ago, the police stated that in their experience, over
    30% of untaxed  vehicles were uninsured.

    Insurance is not invalid because there is not a valid MOT certificate,
    per se.

    The actual offence is not displaying a VALID excise licence. Valid as
    in current,  appropriate class, correct vehicle etc etc. Displaying an
    old/incorrect licence could  potentially lay you open to fraud charges.

    Is using a company vehicle in an illegal condition okay with UK
    policies and procedures?
    
    No, I didn't think it was.....
    
    
    Richard
    

    I think you'll find that if you have your own vehicle the DVLC send a
    reminder about the very first MOT at the tax renewal previous to it
    running out. Eg. Last year at tax renewal time - 14 days before March -
    the form from Swansea told me "From 1st August 1992 this vehicle requires 
    an MOT certificate".
    
    
    	Steve.

Just for interest, the garage my wife bought her second hand Metro
from always sends her a MOT reminder about a month before it's due -
AND a discount voucher to get the MOT done at their garage.

They've got their act together!

Mike B.

    
    Well, it's a good job I wasn't holding my breath...my tax expired
    yesterday and still no sigh of a tax disc.  Hertz didn't send it to me
    as they'd promised, they sent it to car fleet who have supposedly
    posted it last week.
    
    Hertz did however, send me a photo-copy of the disc - I wonder if the
    police will take that into consideration if/when I get stopped for not
    having/displaying a current tax disc!!
    
    Thanks once again car fleet.
    
    Sharon

    I would be very uncomfortable driving a car without a current tax disc.
    
    Have you considered leaning on the lease company to get them to supply
    you with a relief car until the new tax disc arrives.
    
    However, I'm not sure if it is the custodian of the vehicle
    or the owner that is liable. If it is the owner, then theres nothing to
    worry about.
    
    Roy

Since you don't need an MOT until the car is three years old, and the
maximum length of a lease is three years, then the car has reached the end
of it's lease, and so should be got rid of, and replaced by either a new
(replacement) lease car, or a hire car.

I guess there will be some lee way if a new car has been ordered, but it
shouldn't be a surprise to you that your car is three years old and so needs
an MOT/Tax disk/replacing.

Personally, I would not drive an illegal car, and I would be surprised at
a reputable company expecting you to do so.

Peter.

    
    
    It is the driver who is liable to prosecution, not the owner, if the
    vehicle is not displaying a current valid tax disc (not a photocopy)
    you are commiting an offence if you drive it!
    My advice to you is park the vehicle on DEC property and get a relief
    car until you have the tax disc!
    Digital CANNOT ask you to drive the car if it is not legal, if they do
    ask for it in writing, but still don't drive it, just fax the written
    request for you to drive an illegal car straight off to DEC's legal
    department they'll be down on someone like a ton of bricks!
    
    Richard (young)

    
    Car Fleet give out a standard reply to this and that is that if you
    tell the police that it is a company vehicle and the tax has been
    posted to me, they will know that it is taxed etc. and will let it go 
    (and there goes another flying pig).
    
    It's all very well for them to say that but having just rang the post
    office, after the chap picked himself up off the floor from laughing so
    much, he said the car is illegal - and there is NO "grace period"
    anymore and no excuses will suffice.  I have just quoted that to car fleet
    and they now say that if they have not got a tax disc for me this 
    afternoon, they will organise me a hire car.
    
    Again, we wait and see. 
    
    Sharon
    
    P.s.  I'm glad to see that car fleet are getting themselves sorted out!!

    Whilst it is illegal to drive around in a car which isn't displaying a
    valid Tax Disc, it's unlikely you'll be nicked for it until about 14
    days after the old one has expired.
    
    There's a two week grace period, in which you're unlikely to have any
    problems.
    
    I've been stopped once, (for driving slightly above the limit), and my
    Tax disc had expired. The nice friendly Police man very kindly pointed
    this out to me and asked whether or not I was going to get a new one. I
    replied 'Of course, in fact I'm on the way to get one now !' (which was
    in fact the truth) and he let me continue on my journey. He didn't even
    want me to return his way and show him the new disc. This happpened at
    the start of the month, if it had been about a week later I probably
    would have been 'done' !.
    
    Dave.
    

Sharon,
	why don't you swap cars with one of the people that think it's ok to
drive around without a current tax disc?

Dave ;-)

    Dave
    
    I'll suggest that if they cannot find my tax disc by this afternoon.
    
    Sharon

	I have a take-over for three months. My new tax disk did 
	not arrive when the old one expired on 31-dec. I did not
	get a chance to chase this until 20-Jan, as I had been on holiday. 

	I tried to get a replacement ASAP but to cut a long story..
	numerous attempts to get a replacement (via carfleet) ended
	up with me phoning Hertz direct, they had never received 
	the requests - surprise surprise!
	
	I complained to the manager of car fleet about the situation
	and she told me in her eight years with car fleet no-one had
	ever been prosecuted for not diasplaying a current tax disk!!
	She said if I objected to driving the car she could get me a
	replacement, I received her mail about 16:30 Friday afternoon!

	While I was awaiting the replacement disk I was stopped by 
	the police, on Sunday, for displaying an out-of-date disk.
 	I had to produce my docs within seven days at the local nick and 
	the copper had to send a form to the DLVC to check the 
	car was taxed when I was stopped. He told me if the car is 
	currently taxed but you have an out-of-date disk it is not
	a police prosecutable offence.

	The replacement arrived the end of Jan, last week sometime  
	the original tax disk arrived via internal mail...aaaghhhh!!!! 
          
        David 	

    
    I decided the best thing to do yesterday as the disc never turned up,
    was to get a "relief" car to get home - eventually they found that
    there was one in the Viables car park waiting to go back and said I
    could use that.
    
    Guess what arrived in the post this morning!!!  Amazing what can be
    achieved when people really try.
    
    Sharon

re.31:

So I was not the only one who didn't get their tax disc for January!

As to the "I don't know anyone that's been prosecuted". I neither wish to take
the risk or have the hassle of being stopped and having to present documents
because of someone else's mistake.

Replacement cars should be automatically supplied when this sort of thing
happens.

Dave.

Last time I bought a car it was untaxed.  My first journey in it was
to get to the post office to buy a new tax disk.  In this short space
of time it was spotted by a traffic warden (unneccessarily rude, I may
add) and a fifty quid fine promply arrived in the post.  Several letters
and a photocopy of the disk I'd just bought caused them to relent, but
if I hadn't been prepared to argue with them I'd have been fifty quid
worse off.

Chris.

Re Last

I would have dumped the problem on the salesman. The garage could have arranged
prior to you picking up the car.
	
Dave 

Re: .36

How do you know a salesman was involved ?   It could have been a private sale !

Re .37

I take your point.

But you are still a salesperson/man/women even when selling privately.

Dave

    �But you are still a salesperson/man/women even when selling privately.
    
    If I was selling a car privately and the tax disc had expired, I would 
    expect the buyer to organise getting the new one.
    
    Roy
    
    PS I've changed the base note title slightly.

When buying privately, one buys the car in the knowledge of whether it has 
tax/mot etc. or not.

It's not up to the seller to provide it, if you can haggle them into agreeing 
to tax/mot the car in the selling price, then well and good, if not, then it's 
up to you, and always has been.

re -a few, I did buy it from a garage, who needed the insurance
cover note, which I had to collect from the broker (next to the
post office...), and it was near closing time on a saturday (maybe
I should start moaning about the fact that the post office is never
open!)

Chris.

>I should start moaning about the fact that the post office is never
>open

	The one in Savacentre seems to be open all the time the store is
	Saturday afternoons, evening etc....... (not sure about Sundays)

	Heather

    I got my last tax disc there on a Sunday. Sunday shopping, nothing like
    it!
    
    Nigel

But when you buy a new car, in all the excitement of filling in all
the forms you fill in the log book and send it off to DVLC.  Then
realise that you needed it to get the tax 8-}

What makes it worse is that the car doesn't even have an old tax
disk :-(

tp

    One time when I came back from France (where I'd been for over a year)
    I drove straight to the post office to get a new tax disk. Whilst I
    was buying it I was nicked for failure to display. I was fined �20,
    reduced from �50 for the "mitigating circumstances". On challenging
    this the fine was put up to the original �50. 
    
    You may get lucky when you're not displaying a valid tax disk but it
    doesn't make you innocent.
    
    Piers