Conference terri::cars_uk

    That means mine is costing them a fortune, 'cos the 3 month order
    period isn't enough!
    
    Greg
    
    62,000 with new car arriving end of October?!

My lease was extended to 36 months last year. This made my 
renewal due October '93. I mailed fleet estimating that I
would have 60k miles by January '93 so they reduced the 
lease back to 30 months - April '93. Can they only work in 
6 month periods? I was told that they couldn't reduce it to
24 months. So this means that I will still be a couple of
thousand over the 60k limit when I renew the car - provided
there's no delay in delivery.

I'd be interested to see some figures showing just how effective
the revised scheme (sept '91) is in terms of reducing expense. 
Does anyone know how we might go about finding out?


Ian

    
    My solution to over-mileage was to take-over a short-life lease-car,
    releasing my over-mileage car. The short-life car was then passed to
    another when my new car arrived.
    
    (Everyone should try a high-mileage basic car, it really makes you
    appreciate the choice we have !)
    
    TJ

    I think this should be made very clear to company car drivers
    to the effect that they should make their manager or car fleet know
    their car is coming up to 60k miles otherwise it will cost the company 
    dearly.
    
    I'm surprised this hasn't been made known officially to us as there
    can be major savings here. Imagine a car that has done 70 or 80
    thousand miles. At 20p a mile the cost incurred would be more than
    the cars worth !
     
    Christmas has been "cancelled" (didn't Cromwell try this once :-) )
    to cut costs so why isn't this issue been highlighted ?
    
    It has always been said in fleet news on vtx that the lease is the time
    not the mileage. This should be changed, perhaps with a suggestion to 
    use a pool car if the mileage is getting too high on your own car.
    
    Roy

    
    My company car has done 90k miles. No-one has said anything to me about
    excess at any time. 
    
    Colin

    Colin,
    
    It would be interesting if you approached your manager to ask him why
    you weren't told earlier that you have cost the company �6000 in excess
    mileage costs (@20p a mile).
    
    If this really is the case and lets face it, car fleet are not going to
    contact everyone from time to time just to check the mileage, then
    there should at least be an official procedure for us to follow if cars are
    approaching high mileage.
    
    I'll try contacting fleet about this issue and post an update.
    
    Roy

 One of the things I recall from the last change to the car scheme  was that
Car Fleet receive regular report from the leasing company on mileage using
information from the servicing invoices.

A quick look at VTX confirms that this is the case - so they don't really have 
any excuse for not noticing vehicles with 90000 on the clock!

    How do PHH/Hertz possibly justify 20p/mile?
    
    At that rate, a driver doing 100 miles a day (approx - I haven't done
    detailed sums) would be better off leaving his lease car at home and
    renting a car from Avis (at DEC rates).
    
    It seems high time that FLEET looked at renegotiating our lease
    contracts. Or going to another company.
    
    Dave.

We have customers that  must have 3 quotes for supplies/maintenance/sales etc.

So why do we only stick at 2 with the attitude of "Well its always been that 
way".

Should we not be inviting other people to tender for this as we keep hearing
that in the past DIGITAL have always been a soft touch for their suppliers.



							Stuart

    I'm trying to be objective with this note, but this month's Digital
    Today, page 3 (it would be...) pulled me up. It's the bit in there
    about cost-cutting and mileage.
    
    To quote: "The use of company cars is also going under the microscope".
    It then talks about drivers who exceed their contracted mileage, but am
    I reading too much into that quoted sentence? I just wonder if private
    mileage could be limited in the future...
    
    Surely all they needed to say was something like: "If drivers exceed
    the contractual mileage on their lease cars, then Digital is liable for
    a sizeable excess charge. Company car drivers should inform Fleet in
    good time if it looks as if they will exceed the contractual mileage
    within the agreed period".
    
    
    Stephen
                              

    I've been in touch with the author of the memo quoted in .0
    and apparently car fleet are looking into this matter at the moment.
    
    They need to give 9 months notice to the lease company to arrange
    a different termination date so if you think you are going over
    60000 miles contact them asap.
    
    If you already are over 60000 miles then it might be an idea to
    speak to your manager as you may be able to takeover another 
    car temporarily. 
    
    Something should be done to officially communicate this to all
    company car drivers as this issue probably affects a lot of people.
    
    Roy

    I did everything right, I warrned them I would be well over 60,000 by
    next april, so they reduced my lease until October this year. I then
    told them in May/June that I would have done 60,000 by August, and that
    my next car would be 3 months delivery, so could I order in June and I
    was told NO WAY.
    
    Greg

    I mailed them over three weeks ago to shorten my lease -  no reply.  
    The next one's going with a read receipt and copies to managers.

    Im currently in discussions with car fleet about this.  VTX is full of
    contradictions re the lease scheme, and it doesnt help when you get
    different info from them when you contact them.  VTX states clearly
    that the driver must inform car fleet of expected mileage at time of
    order.  Based on previous 30-35 miles per annum I put this on the order
    form. They confirmed that the lease scheme would be 2 years. Then the
    lease schemes were extended by 6 months without proper analysis as to
    the effects of high mileage users.  So now they say I must hold on to a
    car for 6 months longer with an existing 63,000 miles (and growing)
    with a cost to Digital.  They also claimed that nowhere in VTX does it
    say that they monitor service records,,,I told them where to find it
    !! A colleague ran a mileage up of 93,000 miles cos he believed car
    fleet would tell him when to re-order..at a cost of 17p per mile excess
    this is over �6000 !!! not exactly cost cutting is it.  Lets face it
    PHH and Hertz need us more than we need them..if they aint flexible
    dont use them ..there are plenty leasing companies out there.
    
    I performed a straw poll in our group about car fleet ...it seems
    nearly everyone has a gripe/horror story about them.  Whats being done
    about it ??
    
    A colleague ran them today to inform them that 11 months into his lease
    he had done over 30,000 miles, with the likelyhood that htis would
    increase to 40,000 per annum.  They told him to inform them of the
    mileage in 6 months time...if they need 9 months notice to re-negotiate
    lease terms, why are they telling people to come back to them ???
    To be honest, Partick Thistle are more consistent than Car fleet... no
    offence intended to any Jags fans out there !!
    
    Paul

I just spoke to fleet. Here is my story. Apparantly, hertz offer a deal where
you can send the car back up to three months before the lease term ends
if it has clocked up the agreed mileage. For me this means that if I do 60k
in January as I estimated, and my car is due for renewal in April, then I will
be able to send it back in January. I will also be able to start the process for 
ordering a new car three months prior to the new termination date of January.

The price per mile over the agreed limit is 17p, but this is not chargeable to your
Cost Centre. Fleet have a pot mof money. If a car is returned under the agreed 
mileage, then fleet get some money back from the lease company, if the car
is returned over the mileage, then fleet have to pay something (17p per mile).

As for PHH, well, mine is hertz so I didn't ask. Does this clarify the situation?


	Ian

    Thanks Ian for shedding more light on the subject.
    
    Its good to know the company gets some money back on low mileage cars.
    
    Presumably though if you hadn't contacted fleet to find out this
    information and blindly clocked up a massive mileage with a view to 
    renewing at 3 years you never would've been aware that you would have
    saved to company a couple of grand by ordering early.
    
    As I don't believe that this notes file has an audience that extends to
    all company car drivers, don't you agree that this should be officially
    communicated in some way ?
    
    Roy

I have been going through this with car fleet as well.  About 3 months
ago (when my car was 20 months old 56k miles), I went and asked fleet
to shorten my lease.  I was instructed to send a mail to person X,
which I did, expecting to get the lease shortened to october '92.
Person X forwarded my mail to person Y for action.  Well, suprise
surprise, nothing happened!  Two weeks ago I went to see them again,
and they told me that person Y left SIX months ago!!!, and told me 
to send them another mail!!!! (mileage then 64k).  They then
told me that the lease can only be shortened in 6 monthly invervals,
and that 3 months notice is required.  ie: if they had done something
when I originally asked, they could have shortened the lease to
October, now only to April '93.  By which time I shall be pushing
100k miles.  (�0.20 X 40000 = �8000)

They also told me that the mileage penalty is on average
20p per mile, and that this is only just being introduced.  To 
send the car back earlier will incurr an early termination penalty.
I have asked fleet to tell me how much this penalty is, well 10 days
later I am still waiting for a reply!!!  of course this penalty
needs to be borne by the drivers cost centre, the mileage penalty
by car fleet.

As to taking over an existing lease, I would be happier to do
this if fleet would recognise that these are second hand cars
and not expect to get the original leasing cost.  I dont think
much of the idea of paying a frequently higher cost than a new
lease for a frequently lower spec car that is second hand!!
It would also be useful if VTX listed the mileage of the
second hand cars, there would be little point in my taking
over a car with 50k miles and 18months to go.


Disgruntled of DECpark. (mileage now 66.5k)

    If you lot don't escalate this to someone who will do something about
    it, fleet will continue in this manner. Posting notes here achieves
    nothing except making you feel better.
    
    Laurie.

�    Posting notes here achieves nothing except making you feel better.
    
    A bit like the 'plonker' who had parked over two parking bays in DECpark ?
    
    All the slagging off in here, including suggestions as to what obscene
    words to carve into his windscreen, when it turned out that the car
    had been dumped by some thieving/joyriding git...
    
    J.R.

    PLEASE escalate this, and all the other frequent gripes about Fleet.
    
    I can't myself, as (at this moment :-}) I have no personal problem with
    them.
    
    But if people just lie back and let themselves be messed around by
    Fleet, nothing will ever be done.
    
    Dave.

        <<< Note 1884.15 by KERNEL::FISCHERI "Tonight I fancy myself" >>>
    <<<The price per mile over the agreed limit is 17p, but this is not
    <<<chargeable to your Cost Centre. Fleet have a pot mof money. If a car
    <<<is returned under the agreed  mileage, then fleet get some money
    <<<back from the lease company, if the car is returned over the
    <<<mileage, then fleet have to pay something (17p per mile).
    
        <<< Note 1884.17 by TBIRD1::WHITMARSH "Kevin" >>>
    <<<They also told me that the mileage penalty is on average 20p per
    <<<mile, and that this is only just being introduced.  To  send the car
    <<<back earlier will incurr an early termination penalty. I have asked
    <<<fleet to tell me how much this penalty is, well 10 days later I am
    <<<still waiting for a reply!!!  of course this penalty needs to be borne
    <<<by the drivers cost centre, the mileage penalty by car fleet.
    
    Bit of a contradication here chaps!
    
    Or am I missing some obvious, like these two guys work for different
    companies?
    
    Dave

    The last mail I got from Car Fleet stated that the info from VTX is
    created and entered by Personnel, and the Car fleet have no control
    over the content.  This goes some way to explaining the contradictions
    in the car fleet section of VTX.  Perhaps someone of more technical
    capability than I could extract this topic and send it to the CAr Fleet
    manager ??
    Paul

.22>The last mail I got from Car Fleet stated that the info from VTX is
.22>created and entered by Personnel, and the Car fleet have no control
.22>over the content.  
    
    This is absurd - anyone who can use an editor can easily be taught the
    couple of things which VTXPrep requires of a document. All that is
    needed then is for the VTX pages "owned" by car fleet to be allocated
    to a different VTX Information Provider, who would be in the Car Fleet
    organisation. Then, there would be no excuse for not maintaining the
    information on VTX.
    
    Terry

re.23:

Perhaps Personnel are there for a reason? Digital's contract with Hertz/PHH
may have different terms to the Digital/Employee contract managed by Personnel?

Dave.

According to the unnamed person I spoke to in fleet, the three month "window"
around the lease termination date is for Hertz only. If the car us returned outside 
of this three month period, say in November when renewal is due in April,
then the lease companies impose a penalty for early termination.

By the way, I'm waiting for a call from Rob Allen - Senior Administrator at fleet
to discuss some sort of official communication on this. I'll keep you posted.

Ian

    
    Car fleet, come in. Car fleet, come in. Over.

OK. I just spoke with Rob. Here is the siuation as he sees it.

During the first year of owning your car, you should be aware of how long it'll take 
you to hit the 60,000 mile limit. If you feel you will exceed this before the termination 
date of the lease, then you should send a mail to car fleet explaining the situation.
Hertz have a three month window for returning cars before the lease has expired
if they have hit the agreed mileage. PHH have a two month window. 

This information has not been made common knowledge as the system would then
be open to abuse. If you are nearing the agreed mileage, then you should notify fleet
who will then tell you about the "windows".

As stated before, cars returned under mileage mean money in the pot. Cars over
the mileage mean money out of the pot. The system tends to break even.

That's about it. They are his words (not quoted) so don't have a go at me.


	Ian

    Did he mention anything about official communation about saving the
    company money by arranging to return cars avoiding mileages over 60k ?
    
    I agree they should not need to tell all and sundry all the loop holes
    where the scheme is open to abuse but there are thousands to pounds to
    saved here.
    
    Roy

He said the "window" stuff would not be made "official" as it is open to abuse.
All the information I got off him was in my last reply - sorry!


Ian

Someone else may want to try. Maybe the more people pestering him the better!

So what happened to the statement, in VTX, in

2  Car Fleet
1  Preferred Car List Guidelines
4  Leases

Where it says "All mileages are monitored through service records"?

I supposed both PHH and Hertz must be laughing their socks off with this ...

"Hey, look, another car being serviced over 60,000 miles, should we tell DEC?"

"Nah, we make loads of money on this fiddle!"

mb

Ah yes, that reminds me. I forgot to mention that Fleet have no access to
service records. These are dealt with purely by the leasing company. "That's
what we pay them for" were something similar to what Rob told me. So,
unless you notify fleet of your mileage yourself, then they haven't the foggiest
what mileage your car has done.


Ian

    Re .30
    
    martin, 
    That was my point to them about info on VTX..they even said that it was
    not said on VTX, and that no-one in Car Fleet knew wher eI got this
    info.  As you know I an a level headed Scot, who never loses his
    temper, but I dont like being called a liar.  I pointed out where they
    could get the info, as per a previous note, which is when they stated
    that they have no ownership of the data in VTX.  This strikes an
    interesting question....do we believe any of the rules/guidelines in
    Car Fleet VTX ??..given that there are a few contradictions in there,
    it means that they can play to any rule they wish.  In fairness they
    are understaffed, but it seems that they need to re-evaluate the lease
    scheme terms and re-post them to avoid any confusion.
    
    Everone I speak to at the moment seems to have a gripe/ horror story
    about car Fleet, how long can they continue like this ??
    
    Cheers
    Paul

RE:                     <<< Note 1884.32 by MIACT::RANKINE >>>
    
�    Everone I speak to at the moment seems to have a gripe/ horror story
�    about car Fleet, how long can they continue like this ??
    
    I thought I'd given a tiny clue as to the answer to this. Here's
    another, after an <FF> to protect the weak-hearted or those of nervous
    disposition.
    
    
    They will continue to behave like "this", and to get away with it, just
    as long as whoever it is in senior management who is responsible for
    this area, remains in blissful ignorance as to the consequences.
    
    Laurie.

    re:17p or 20p per mile over the 60,000.
    
    I was speaking to a chap at Mentec today. They have a similar scheme,
    i.e. for for every mile over 80,000, they have to pay an amount. His
    car has done 80,000, so they're allowed to replace it. Furthermore, get
    this, the amount they pay per mile is 8p. He nearly fell off his chair
    when I told him what we pay.
    
    Now, I'm not dur to change my car until I don't know when, but I think
    I'll bang a mail into fleet telling them how many miles I've done, so
    that they know now.
    
    Colin 
    
    P.S. 29,000 in 13 months, and rising.

    I think the main problem is this 3 month order window.
    
    My wife's new company car was ordered 5 months ago, to arrive the day
    her current lease runs out.
    
    My new Digital leasemobile was ordered 27th July and will arrive end of
    October, well past the 10th August I could have had it because of
    excess mileage!
    
    Greg

    As I was in DECpark today I called into Fleet to find out what the
    situation was with my car (23 months old, 48K miles).
    
    Firstly the 36 month/60K miles is a myth!  The person I spoke to told
    me that it was never official and that the lease is as originally
    advised, that is 30 months/50K miles.  When I asked should I renew it
    now I was told to hang onto it until April (end of the lease) when it
    will have 60-65K miles but to start getting quotes January to order
    February for April delivery.
    
    Suits me.

re.36:

So we're all driving around believing we've got 36 month leases and we have not?
Strange myth, I seem to remember some pretty official communication on this.

Dave.

    Dave,
    
    I suggest that everyone calls fleet and determines exactly what is on
    the database for their individual vehicle.  I can only repeat what I
    was told by Fleet.  As for the message, I remember it well!
    
    Alan

    If you can get ANY response from anyone in Fleet let me know.
    
    I would love to be able to get hold of a car from the take-over list...
    but after multiple phone calls, mails (as yet unread) etc I have given
    up...
    
    My car was due to go back on 8th August, but has only done 43000 so I
    guess at the moment its not a problem...
    
    I'll let them chase me...
    
    
    Xtine
    

re.39:

You should tell Alistair Wright. He thinks it will take a lot of work to make
savings on the lease fleet. Sounds like they just need someone to answer
queries!

Dave.

    I think one of the problems is that the car fleet administrators have
    little interest in motoring (judging by their lack of input in this
    conference). IMHO.
    
    Roy

    Roy,
    	This could be because (I believe) that H.R. personnel are NOT
    ALLOWED to use notes ! (See discussion in UK_Digital).
    
    	Rik

re.42:

Car Fleet is not part of HR. It's admin and therefore in whatever the admin.
org. is called nowadays!

Dave.

    At the risk of being inundated with mails to the contrary, I believe
    that the majority of Fleet are not in fact Digital employees but
    contractors/temps.  I suggest that their goals are not inline with
    ours.
    
    If my suspicions are unfounded, then I will withdraw the comment.

	Re .44 - oh good, anti-contractor prejudice. How mature.

	JJ.

    Leaving aside the pathetic dig at contractors, I'll say once again that
    whining in here is ineffectual. ESCALATE.
    
    Laurie.

    At the risk of a rathole...
    
    Re .45 - it was not not an anti-contractor dig but a statement of fact. 
    Perception - Fleet seem to have a high turn-over of staff who work a
    process and seem to add little value.  Like it or not, contractors are
    goaled on delivering a completed task whereas permanent employees (one
    hopes) have a different attitude.  For the record, I have worked on
    both sides.
    
    .46 is right - if you don't like the service, do something about it.  I
    have!

    So have I... the mail mentioned earlier was sent to Chris Palmer...
    
    who still hasn't read it.
    
    
    Today I left my third message (this time with Rob, the last two were on
    an answering machine) asking him to read it and reply.
    
    What use is an Electronic Mail system if noone reads it - and it is
    marked Urgent!
    
    
    Xtine... still disgruntled...
                                             

    
    Just because you request a read receipt in ALL-IN-1 doesn't mean you'll
    actually get one. The message may not be received in another ALL-IN-1
    account, and even if it is, it may be set up to not send out read
    receipts.
    
    However, along with all the other signs, you are probably correct in
    thinking that he hasn't read it. :-)
    
    Simon-whose-account-doesn't-send-read-receipts

    When you were a child you may have thought that putting the appropriate
    textbook underneath your pillow the night before an important exam was
    all that was needed for the information to get into your brain. A lot
    of equally immature managers seem to think that printing their All-in-1
    mail serves a similar function.
    
    Brian

    Is anyone getting any response at all from Fleet?
    
    I get the distinct impression that they're deliberately ignoring us (my
    car is now well past its lease end date, not that it worries _me_ as
    it's low mileage and still suits me fine). 
    
    Am I being paranoid if I think I might see a connection with Alastair
    Wright's memo about expense reduction ("The car scheme currently cost
    us �26 million a year . . .")?
    
    Dave. 

How about someone that sits in the same building as Mr Wright, collating all 
the complaints in here and going through them with him.

I'd do it but I'm in Leeds, and on customer site until Mid November!

Greg

    
    Why not just put an order in for a new car? 
    
    Richard.

Re: .51

Are you aware that it is *your* responsibility to ensure a replacement car for 
when your current lease runs out, not Fleet's to remind you to do so ?

    Yes. I've had a quote request in for 2� months now.
    
    D.

    ...Still amazed that no-one from our fleet dept, regardless of status,
    appears to take any interest in CARS_UK, especially when so many Cries
    From The Heart are being voiced here.
    
    I guess we're all shouting in the wrong room, or being ignored.
    
    So, come Fleet, fight back !!!

I was told that they don't have time to read notes!!!!!


Ian

    
    They don't have time to read mail either....

I sent a mail to car fleet about 3 months ago......

No replies, no acknowledgement...

Then the end of last week I had a reply!! 

      This was the reply that I wanted (shortening the lease period to 
      match the mileage I am doing), and will provide something for me to 
      do over Christmas (looking at cars)!!

Thank you to Lucy / Nicole from car fleet:

The mail was sent from:
      	      From:     NICOLE WHEATE
              WHEATEN AT A1_PEKING at SUBURB at REO
              Dept:     A&L
              Tel No:   (7)830 4700

      although the name on the bottom of the mail was:
      	      
      	      Lucy Marper
      	      (DIGITAL FLEET)