Conference terri::cars_uk

>    What I want to do is restore the engine to it's former glory but I
>    don't know where to start.  
    
    Kris

Do you need the use of the car on a regular basis or can it be off the road
for repair for a couple of months? The answer to this question has a major
effect on the options available.

Nigel_who_rebuilt_GT6_engine_a_few_times.

    I'm not counting on using it for the next couple of months so it's
    'available'.
    
    kris.

    
    Old, burning and leaking oil and pinking?
    
    Old - Needs rebuilding/replacing.
    
    Burning oil - piston rings and/or bores gone - Needs rebuilding
    		  /replacing
    
    Leaking oil - (You don't say where from, but...) - Gaskets and/or
                  seals damaged/worn out - Needs rebuilding/replacing.
    
    Pinking - Might just need a tune up, but it could be a slack timing
              chain, wear in the distributor and probably other things -
    	      Needs rebuilding/replacing.
    
    The bottom line (in case you hadn't already guessed :^)) is that the
    engine is a gonner! If you can't face all the hassle of rebuilding the
    engine yourself (hard work and time consuming, but very rewarding) find
    a reputable engine exchange centre and have them swap your dead engine
    for a freshly rebuilt one. If you can't find anyone to recommend an
    exchanger ask each one for a detailed list of how they recon engines.
    You should get new pistons, a new oil pump, a new cam (?) and tappets
    and a reground crank. Anything less (what do the rest of you think
    about the cam?) won't do.
    
    Mark
    
    PS Getting a recon exchange engine CAN work out cheaper than doing it
    yourself too.
    
    PPS Get a Haynes workshop manual (or maybe even a BL workshop manual if
    you don't trust Haynes - I've no bad experiences with them) and read 
    through the instructions for removing, rebuilding and replacing the 
    engine. If you don't think you're up to it, it's probably best not to
    even start. Good luck.
    
    
    

    How much might a recon. engine cost roughly?

    
    Very roughly (I've no idea what an MGB engine would cost really) in the
    �250 - �300 +VAT range. Could be up to a �100 more, I'd imagine.
    
    Mark

>>    You should get new pistons, a new oil pump, a new cam (?) and tappets
>>    and a reground crank. Anything less (what do the rest of you think
>>    about the cam?) won't do.
    
    If you're having a reground crank, then you will need 'mated' con rods
    as well.
    
    Shaun (just to make things a little worse!)
    

    
    Re .6
    
    No you won't. You just get oversize bearings, don't you?
    
    Mark

I have a copy of a book at home on how to restore an MGB written by a chap in
England.  I can't think of the exact title, but it is truly outstanding. It
might be worth picking up a copy if someone can remeber the title.

Jim

>    Re .6
    
>    No you won't. You just get oversize bearings, don't you?
    
Yes, as I understand it (and last did it) only suitable next oversize bearings
are needed.

If you elect to go for the recon. engine it is pretty easy to change the engine 
yourself with perhaps alittle help from an engine hoist (cost of hire approx. 
�30 for a weekend) and an experienced person (joking aside engines are heavy 
and can be dangerous if not lifted properly).

As a time guide if all goes well (eg approx. 50% of the time) it is possible
for the amateur to swap an engine in a weekend then a few more days work fitting
all the bolt-ons and doing the tuning/adjustments etc.

Hope this helps,

Nigel.

    
    Don't forget that you'll need the engine hoist to get the old one out - 
    and that there might be a need for the swear box at this stage, when
    trying to undo the engine mountings.......
    
    Elaine
    

    
    I'd go along with the comments on fitting an engine yourself in terms 
    of time required, but when I put the engine back in my Triumph many
    moons ago I couldn't believe the brute force the mechanic used (I'd
    had to call in my friendly mechanic after a day of gently trying to
    line up clutch and gearbox input shaft bought no joy). Most engine
    exchangers will fit your engine for a nominal charge (about 50 - 80
    quid last time I looked) and after hiring the hoist, swearing and 
    cursing and risking doing in your back, you're not going to come out
    very better off fitting it yourself. Added to this is the fact that
    most good reconditioners offer a guarantee. Fitting the engine yourself
    won't invalidate that warranty, but could make getting a claim settled
    more difficult.
    
    Mark

A few ramblings that may be of help:

1. Prior to doing the work get hold of an old gearbox input shaft, it is *much*
   easier to remove both the gearbox and engine as one unit, separate the engine
   then use the old input shaft to align the clutch to the engine prior to then
   fitting the engine. I've tried both methods eg removing both at the same time
   and removing just the engine, the former is much easier.

2. Tools required for job are pretty predictable, socket set, imperial spanners
   pliers, hammer, larger hammer, approx. 4 foot length of suitable steel chain,
   a garage (not a must unless you like working with very cold hands), cloth to 
   wipe up the blood, old breakfast cereal packet, nail scissors and red 
   hermatite (to make the gaskets you forgot to order), tin to put the leftover
   nuts and bolts in.....

3. The MG owners club in Swavasea (sp?) between Cambridge and Huntingdon may be
   able a good place to buy a recon. engine from.

4. Don't be put off, if approached in the right way the job is pretty 
   straightforward, very rewarding and alot cheaper than using a garage.

Nigel.

    re last .... MGOC is in Swavesey, on the north side of Cambridge on the
    A604, I think.

    Having gone through this procedure with my '69 Roadster last year I
    thought I'd add my tuppence worth.  I am mechanically inept and trust
    the care and maintenance of the car to a local mechanic.  He seems to
    enjoy it as it is slightly different from his usual diet of Cavaliers
    and Sierras.
    
    We sat down and priced various options, including him doing a complete
    rebuild of the existing engine, and I ended up deciding on a
    Leyland/Unipart Goldseal replacement engine.  Some of the other
    restorers were cheaper, but it would be logistically difficult if they're in
    the South of England and I experienced any problems with the
    unit.  The list price of the engine was about �600, but I think there's
    quite a bit of profit margin for the dealer in that.  I ended of paying
    �600 including fitting and all the ancilliary bits that needed done.  
    
    The engine came with a 12 Month/12,000 miles warranty which can be
    claimed on at any Unipart dealer.  Mine has now done about 5,000 miles
    with no problems whatever, although I find it a bit un-nerving that I'm
    not constantly topping up the oil!

    If I lived in the south of the U.K. I would take the engine out myself
    and take it to Oselli in Oxford . They do great engine rebuilds and
    will do any mods from simple lightening and balancing up to a full
    1950cc conversion that will go like @#$% of a shovel. You can even get
    them to do all the machining and put it back together yourself.
    
    James

    Before I upset anyone, I know that the comments placed in this note
    were written with the best intent. Having served my motor engineering 
    apprenticeship +2 years as a motor mechanic, combine this with the fact
    that I've owned/restored more than a few MG's over the last few years,
    I feel qualified to voice an opinion.....
    
    Without doubt, if the origional noter was to adhere to 80% of the wild
    and ill-thoughout replies contained in this note, then he'd soon be
    broke. Yes it may require an engine, BUT before you throw your hard
    earned cash down the toilet........
    
    PINKING:
    
    A and B series BMC engines were/are constantly bothered with pinking.
    One of the most common reasons being the set-up of the twin carbs.
    Ensure that the carbs are balanced, and that the mixture setting is 
    spot on...they need checking/adjusting every 3000 miles. Also make sure
    that the dampers are working correctly.....this should cure dirty
    plugs!
    
    In addition to the above a good cylinder head de-coke will almost 
    certainly cure the pinking...read on. 
    
    BURNING/LEAKING OIL:
    
    These engines ARE as "hard as nails" at the bottom end, IF they have
    had regular oil changes and top-ups. In my experience the valve guides
    and seals on the cylinder head is where a great deal of the problems
    occur. I suggest that you remove and check out the condition of the head. 
    It costs about 45-65 quid to have the value guides re-worked,
    head de-coked, and values re-ground....now you have a fully operational 
    cylinder head....which will fit on a short-engine (bottom half) if
    required.
    
    After the head is removed have the cylinder bore wear checked, and if it
    is worn, then the chances are that the bottom end is shot! If not, then
    I would proceed with bolting the re-worked head back on to the block,
    after ensuring that the cylinder bores do not have any any nasty deep
    scores, and/or black oily marks (sure sign of piston ring wear). 
    
    I assume that the big-ends are not noisy, and that the oil pressure is
    above 65 PSI at normal running speeds. Oil pressure readings are a
    great way of determining the bottom end condition of the BMC
    engines.....check it out!      
    
    Oil leaks are a problem too, but most gaskets and seals are fairly
    easily replaced.
    
    These engines are really easy to work on, and anyone with a basic
    knowledge and understanding can remove the head in a matter of 1 hour,
    therby making sure that it needs more than cylinder head and carb work!
    
    If you want a GOOD re-conditioned engine be prepared to pay 400+ quid
    exc fitting. If you want a piece of junk then fork out 250 quid.
    Remember that these exchange units were once someone else's nightmare,
    if they are not completely re-worked then you may not get more than a
    year out of them....you pay's your money etc etc etc.
    
    I realise that your experience on cars may be limited, but it is
    possible to have a good engine for a lot less than some of these
    companies will charge you.....on top of that, it's good fun to get stuck
    in!
    
    John.                                        
    

    
    Re .18
    
    Got any advice on how to ensure that anyone buying a recon engine
    doesn't end up paying �400+ for a duff engine instead of �250?
    
    Mark

>>    if the origional noter was to adhere to 80% of the wild
>>    and ill-thoughout replies contained in this note, then he'd soon be
>>    broke.
    
    But that *IS* CARS_UK ;^)
    
    I have to agree, if the car were mine, I would probably WANT to do the
    work myself, if I could take it off the road for a raesonable amount of
    time.  The idea of keeping the car as original as possible would be a
    reason to restore the engine to its former glory.
    
    But then again, at the end of the day, this is all just my opinnion.
    
    Good luck.
    
    
    Shaun

    RE: .18
    
    John,
    
    This sounds great advice and I shall no doubt start trying things out
    this weekend.
    
    At the moment, I want to play.  I want to fiddle around with things and
    hopefully at the same time increase the efficiency of the engine.
    
    I take it that the methods for actually doing what you outline in your
    note may be found in the Haynes Manual?
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Kris.

    
    re 18 - It's all very well you saying that :-
>>
    These engines are really easy to work on, and anyone with a basic
    knowledge and understanding can remove the head in a matter of 1 hour,
>>
    
    but - if you've not got the tools for the job, and you are not sure of
    what you are doing, and more importantly don't have the experience to
    know when things don't 'feel' right, you can end up feeling frustrated,
    and the job costing you quite a lot of money to have someone put it
    right.  I have spend a lot of time working on various engines, but
    started off working with an experience person who knew how to deal with
    bolts etc which were'nt playing the game - who knew how hard you could
    hit something without breaking it - and knew the pitfalls of even
    'easy' jobs. It's not the job itself which needs lots of knowledge - 
    it's when things aren't going according to the Haynes Manual! 
    
    Having said that - if you've got the time, and there is someone who you
    can ask if things aren't going right - then give it a go! 

    
    Re .21
    
    If you're going to start tinkering, make sure you've got A) a good 
    socket set and B) a GOOD torque wrench.
    
    Mark

       I thought I'd just add a word of comfort to the base noter. On a
       scale of 1 to 10, I'd rate my mechanical eptitude as about 2� - no
       natural ability, 10 thumbs but able to follow a Haynes manual.

       From this starting point, and for reasons of economy, I ran an MGB
       for 8 years and 100,000 miles, doing all the maintenance myself.
       Equipment I acquired in that time (as well as the socket set and
       spanners):

       o Carburretor balancer. Dead cheap, just a rubber tube and a tiny
         ball in a plastic sleeve. Needed about every three months.
       o Gunstons colour tune. Also invaluable for tuning.
       o Tappet adjuster. Complete waste of money. A spanner and screw-
         driver are easier.

       And, of course, a Haynes manual. There have been some Haynes
       manuals that have not impressed me, but the MGB one is good. My
       original become so oil stained I had to buy another!

       Car magazine used to describe the MGB as having 'unburstable
       mechanicals', and this is a great help to a mechanical dummy like
       me. I only ever made one mistake with the car, and that was
       selling it!  Good luck.

       Ian.
    

    	I forgot to add, the MG Owners' Club is a very good source of
        advice and supplies, and well woth joining (if you haven't
        already).
    
    
    	The address is,
    
    	MG OWNERS' CLUB,
    	2/4 STATION ROAD,
    	SWAVESEY,
    	CAMBS.

    Kris,
    
    Don't hesitate to call/mail me for advice should you decide to tackle
    this job yourself....there are many short-cuts, and tips which I would
    be only too happy to discuss with you.  
    
    Just do it, you'll have a great time!
    
    My DTN is:  823 x3353.......John.
    
    Essential tools/materials:
                    
      Good A/F sized socket set. 
      A/F spanners. 
      Valve grinding paste....a value grinding tool (1.50 pounds).
      Emery paper. 
      Valve sping compressor (hire shop 3 pounds). 
      Screwdriver set. 
      Mallet. 
      Torque wrench (hire shop).
      A full MGB GT gasket/decoke set (15 pounds).
      New engine oil and filter (10 quid).
    
    

    OK,
    
    So here I am approaching the car armed with toolkit & grim
    determination.
    
    What should/can I do first.
    
    Is there a logical sequence to it all? - Assuming that I don't want to
    totally re-build the engine?
    
    kris

    
    First step would seem to be to get the head off and assess the
    damage. Don't start anything unless you're confident that you
    can do it (as others have said, it doesn't require a degree in
    engineering to remove a head, but over-confidence will almost certainly
    end in tears - and a much lighter wallet!). 
    
    The Haynes manual will have a section on how to remove the head with the 
    engine in the car. Follow these instructions carefully and don't skip any 
    sections. The much maligned Haynes manual is based on a stripdown of a
    virtually new car, so don't be suprised if "simply lift off the head"
    becomes hit it with a hammer and piece of wood, but equally don't be 
    tempted to over do it with force. If something isn't coming off as it
    seems it should, check nothing is fouling it and that you haven't
    missed any extra bolts. Follow the untightening sequence of the head
    bolts carefully. You don't want to warp the head if all it needs is a 
    decoke and some new valve seals.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Mark
    
    PS I await Monday's report with interest! :^)
    
    
    

I'd do a compression test before you even think of splitting the engine apart.
It's easier that way, they're a sod to do with the head off ;-).

Seriously though, it can give you a clue where to look when you do take it
to pieces.

M.

    I'd further that.
    
    Give it a full service first, Degrease the whole engine, wash the lot
    off with gunk or something. Whatever you do, this will make it all a
    cleaner place to work. Change points and plugs (oil/filter too, but
    this could be wasted if it does need a rebuild), check the timing, set
    up the carbs and tappets. Then check all the sump bolts (and other
    leakable places) are tight, check the head is properly torqued
    (surprised if it isn't, but do this before you do the tappets), and
    take it for a spin, and give it some welly.
    
    Then, compression test it, listen to it, check for leaks etc. Bear in
    mind that something simple like unbalanced carbs, or even worn carbs
    (not much to go wrong on an SU) can cause a B engine to run badly. Look
    for leaks on the inlet manifold too, that plays havoc. Also check the
    vacuum adv/ret for leaks, another notorious place for a badly running
    engine.
    
    It really would be silly to start pulling it apart before you have to.
    It may only need the above, and can run happily, if not perfectly.
    Assuming it does, that gives you use of the car, and time to re-build
    *another* engine in the meantime.
    
    Good luck, Laurie.

    Re last couple
    
    How is a service going to cure the engine's oil burning tendencies?
    Also, I DOUBT that a compression test would neccesarily prove whether
    valve seals were worn or not. Also an engine this old (presuming it
    hasn't been rebuilt before) is almost certain to need a de-coke by
    now, I'd have thought. This won't be clear unless the head comes off.
    
    While agreeing that these are all things which should be done to an
    engine showing signs of 'a problem', it would appear that this engine
    is a known 'knackered' example. A total rebuild may prove unneccesary,
    but fiddling about is not likely to cure major problems.
    
    Kris, someone a while back mentioned oil pressure. Is your oil pressure
    good or low?
    
    Mark

    Mark,
    
    The oil pressure seems ok except of course when the oil level is low.
    
    Kris

    Kris,
    
    If you get stuck over the weekend, and need advice, my home number is
    0292 521448.
    
    
    Try not to use the hammer, the guy that built your engine did not use a
    hammer. A mallet or a piece of wood may be used to "persuade" the head
    to come off......but NOT a hammer!.....if need be, spray freeing oil
    onto the head/block bolts before trying to free the head from the
    block...you MUST be careful here....undue the head bolts in the PROPER
    sequence....see the manual.
    
    John
    

    
    Well? What did you find?
    
    Mark

    Well,
    
    I sat in the car and started her up. FINE
    
    I pushed the clutch down and there was very little resistence at all.
    
    Not being fully acquainted with the workings of a clutch before, I 
    consulted the Haynes Manual but there was nothing in there of use.
    
    I bled the clutch...eventually ( After I found the bleeder ) ( buried
    under the car in inches of oily grime.
    Bleeding the clutch made no difference whatsoever, in fact it made it
    worse.
    
    So that's as far as I got!  At least I felt good at the end of the day
    and still bear the scars (permanent gunk under the nails etc...)
    
    Any ideas?
    Kris

    Kris,
    
    What method did you use to bleed the clutch?. Did you have an assistant,
    or were you using one of the home-bleeding kits?
    
    Are you sure that there is no air in the system?. It sounds as though
    there is, if it's worse than before!
    
    Also, is the slave cylinder displaying signs of fluid leakage (common
    fault), if so a repair kit may do the trick, for a short period at
    least....this depends on the state of the cylinder barrel. The whole 
    slave cylinder assembly costs about 40 quid, and may be worth buying if 
    the barrel on your current one is badly scored and/or pitted. DONT try
    to tart it up using abrasive paper, or you will ruin it completely!
     
    To bleed the system correctly the bleed valve MUST only be opened when
    pressure is being applied to the system (footpedal). This will cause the 
    footpedal to move right down onto the floor. If you are working with an
    assistance, now is the time to close the valve on the slave cylinder
    BEFORE allowing the pedal to come back up. 
    
    This process should be repeated 3-4 times Kris, but make sure that you 
    keep the master cylinder topped up at all times.
    
    Cheers..John.

    I did have an assistant and I repeated the sequence twice.
    
    Admittedly, I did have a make-your-own kit of a jam jar and a piece of
    cable with the wires stripped out (but it fitted fine over the nipple).
    
    I opened the bleeder at the start but did close it whilst the clutch
    pedal was pressed to the floor at the end. 
    
    Maybe I should have tried a few more times.
    Kris

    And try closing it *on* a downstroke, rather than resting on the floor,
    as the slightest movement, or slack in the linkage, may suck air back
    in.
    
    JK

    I seem to recall that the engine was losing oil, rather than burning
    it. There is quite a difference! Also, what appears to be oil smoke,
    to the untrained/inexperienced eye, may actually be a poor mixture.
    
    The substance of my note was try everything before you take it to bits.
    
    It sounds as if it's been standing for a while, even more cause for
    caution.
    
    I say all this, because I've been there, many times.
    
    Laurie.

    Re .39
    
    .0 says burning and leaking.
    
    Mark