Conference terri::cars_uk

    I drove on holidays in Portugal last summer. You're right about
    the reckless driving. They are incredible risk-takers. When I drove
    from the Algarve to Lisbon (350 miles approx.) I found the roads
    to be extremely good though not quite motorway standard.
    
    If you drive to Lisbon be sure to cross the famous suspension bridge
    across the river. It's so high you think at first you're flying
    (personal opinion).
    
    Around the Algarve the roads were fairly crappy with a good percentage
    of potholes per square inch.
    
    Just keep your wits about you at all times!!!!
    
    Billy
     

    5 years ago I did the Plymouth - Santander - Lisbon trip.   The roads
    were generally not that busy, and whilst the locals do have a habit of
    overtaking in the most stupid places, I didn't have any near misses.  
    I would advise that you keep the inside of the car clear of any
    valuables.  I stopped for 5 mins in Salamanca (sp) for a lunchtime
    drink,  and had the car broken into (forced lock).  I guess that advise
    goes for most of europe these days !
    
    Have fun,
    
    Nigel

    Rathole:
    
    Last time I was in Lisbon, I was repeatedly offered (stolen) cars for 
    sale, on one occasion by a young boy who couldnt have been older than
    ten.  I enquired as to the make of the car, the reply was "what make to
    you want me to get for you ?"
    
    He also asked me if I was interested in sleeping with his mother (he
    assured me that she was a virgin!) - I declined.
    
    
    Back to the topic:
    
    The main road from Lisbon to the Algarve is good, not too heavily used. 
    I second the idea of crossing the bridge over the Tagus.  Roads up to
    Porto are also good.  Lots of minor roads are unsurfaced and very
    dusty.  Driving varies between Parisian suicidal and Greek suicidal.
    
    There is only one mit of motorway standard road, running south from
    Lisbon (or there was when I was there).
    
    Have fun, keep your car locked.
    
    
    John

	I have just come back from my hols - Portugal - we had a car for
	a week, and drove from Lisbon, up to Porto, and back.

	The fact that I am actually alive and here to tell the tale is a near
	miracle.

	The Motorway into Lisbon has heavy crosswinds, it is two lanes, and 
	the lorries like to drive straddling the white line, when they're
	not in the left hand lane.

	The traffic speeds vary between 20mph and 140+mph, with two lanes this
	can be quite disconcerting - wear brown trousers.

	There were 5 major accidents in 14 days on the Lisbon to Cascais road, 
	which is about 30 miles. Eleven fatalities in these 14 days - it is more
	congested than the M23 towards Brighton at the weekends - everyone
	escaping Lisbon for the coast.
	The local papers do a good job of frightening people to slow down. The
	photographs of the accidents are taken BEFORE any ambulances arrive, and
	bodies removed.

	On the main roads, (marked red on the map I had - don't bargain on 
	them being wide enough for two cars) it is qite common to encounter
	trucks/tractors/moped pulling machines travelling at 10-15mph on very
	windy roads, chucking out black deisel fumes. It is very difficult to 
	get past them.
	The yellow roads can vary, and the white are not for the fient hearted.

	It is fairly common to go around a bend, and have to stand on the 
	breaks to avoid having a head-on collision with somone coming the
	other way and overtaking.

	The immediate area around Lisbon, and just North, is the worst.

	We had a group B car - the engine does just not have the Umph to
	pass anything unless there was half an hour to do this, or get us out
	of trouble if lorries decided they liked our lane better than the one
	they were currently in.

	The scenery is wonderful, the people are wonderful, the weather is
	wonderful, the food and wine is wonderful.

	Recommendations:

	1. Get the most powerful car you can afford - LHD, and make sure the 
	breaks are in good shape.

	2. Keep clear of Lisbon, and areas just North - especially Friday to
	Sunday.

	3. Roundabouts are not for the nervous.

	4. NEVER leave anything in the car on view - not even the road map.

	6. Drive as if you expect to meet cars coming head-on around corners,
	and lane control means you don't have control.

	7. Keep a bottle of water handy, those diesel fumes really start to get
	to the back of the throat.

	8. Even tho' this sounds a bit hairy, have a great time, we did.

	Heather

	PS I have never seen so many old Ford Anglias.

	What was the general availability of lead free petrol in your
	travels Heather ?

	Gordon

    
    Thanks Heather (and everyone else) for all the info. Glad to hear you
    did enjoy the holiday despite the maniac drivers ! We've already
    decided to tour from the north down to about mid-Portugal and will
    probably make a very wide circle around Lisbon.
    
    By the way, did you camp during your stay ? If so did you find plenty
    of (good) campsites ? If you stayed in hotels what sort of price did
    you pay ?
    
    Thanks again for all the info.
    
    
    Karen
    
    

    Rathole:
    
    I've camped in Porto, Nazare and Evora (all north of Lisbon), Lisbon
    itself, and Evora (south) as well as on the Algarve (quiet bit in the
    West, near Sagres).  
    
    Campsites are good, cheap, friendly.  Many have barbies every night.
    Put your tent under Olive trees (planted on nearly all sites) if you
    dont want to roast.
    
    Hotels in Lisbon and Porto can be very good value.
    
    
    John

    re: last ones
    
    Don't miss Lisbon because of the traffic. You'll get used to the
    it and there's plenty to see. Try the castle in the center of Lisbon,
    the river area, Jer�nimos, Bel�m, take the road called Marginal
    and drive by the sea to Estoril, Cascais, Guincho, Sintra.
    
    If you want you can cross the river (by ferry or bridge). Lots of
    traffic on the bridge but it has indeed a nice view. Then you can 
    drive a few more miles south and visit the Arr�bida area.
    Wonderful beach with mountain behind. During July and August the
    confusion in Lisbon is not so great, because people leave for holidays.
    so don't miss the spots I mentioned. I think they are worth visiting.
    
    Be prepared for high temps. At the moment there's 40� Celsius. 
    
    Enjoy your staying...
    
    RUI
    
    

    Try Sessimbra, it is about 1 hrs drive south of Lisbon, it used to be
    quite nice about 2/3 years ago, we used to have a flat there.
    
    Carl
    

   Yes, driving in Portugal can certainly be quite hairy at times.  My
   wife and I got one of these fly/drive deals.  The car promised was
   a Renault 5, which, as we were staying in the Algarve, was fine for
   our needs.  When we arrived the guy tried to fob us off with one
   of those awful old Renault 4s (you know the ones with the daft
   gearsticks) but I told him (politely) where to place it and he
   eventually 'found' us a 5.  Incidentally, this was the one and 
   only time that anyone tried to 'rip us off' the entire holiday, and
   he was English !!

   We were staying at a little fishing village to the East of Faro, which as 
   it turned out was a blessing.  Anything to the West of Faro is a building 
   site.  The coastline round that area is really pretty and sometimes quite
   beautiful.  Small inlets make it possible to have a go at windsurfing
   without getting swept out to sea on the tide 8^) .  And lots of different
   beaches to go to.  Driving into the main town for that region is fairly
   easy as most of the traffic is, again, in the west.  Parking too is
   no problem except on the main market days, Tuesday and Saturday.

   I must say that if the standard of driving I came up against is the norm
   in Portugal, then I would hate to go to an area where there is a high 
   volume of traffic.  At one time I drove round a long sweeping bend in
   the main road when a woman, who had been watching me coming, decided
   'what the hell' and pulled out into the middle of the road in front of
   me AND STOPPED.  I didn't have ABS but somehow I managed to break and
   steer round her, at the same time hurling a few choice Anglo saxon verbs
   and adjectives at her.  Oh the joys of European motoring..

   However, driving inland from the coast is a real joy, provided you are
   not in a hurry, you can get stuck behind a tractor for miles, and you
   can really see some of the most beautiful countryside and some of the
   prettiest houses.  It is also a chance to get a small glimpse of how
   the Portuguese really live.

   The village that we stayed in was relatively unspoiled, even though
   there were 2 big tourist complexes there, and the local people were
   great and joined in with the fun in the evenings.  There was often
   as many local people in the bars as there were tourists.  Even
   though few of them spoke English, it was still possible to have a
   conversation with them (don't ask me how, I don't understand how it
   worked, it just did).

   The food was great, everywhere we went.  I had a different type of fish
   every day for the whole two weeks that we were there, and somethings
   that I had never had before (red mullett, angel fish steaks, hammerhead
   shark, etc), and chips with it nearly every time (^8 .  I went for a
   10 km run most mornings to work off the overeating.  Most memorable
   moment was waking at 4 AM and going for a walk down the beach while
   the sun came up.  Got some beautiful photographs of the 'truffle and
   shellfish' pickers at this time, and they didn't mind my taking the
   photos either.  In fact one old lady gave me a big (half-toothless)
   smile when I indicated that I would like to take her picture.  Great.

   I can't remember when I enjoyed a summer holiday so much (I am normally
   a winter sports person) so I hope that I get the chance to return
   to the Algarve again, before it becomes totally commercialised.

   Portugal is a great place to be, just take out a large insurance 
   policy if you are driving.

Garry
       

	Even in Touristy areas such as Fatima, the 3 star hotels only cost
	�20 a night for B+B for two.
	The 2 star we were booked into was �12 a night B+B for two.
    
	The retreat of the Knights Templar in TOMAR is well worth a visit, there
	has been a great deal of restoration, and its on the highest hill for 
	miles.    One of the most bloodthirsty religious groups in History.

	For good places to see, take the road from Nazare (fishing village) on 
	the coast, across to TOMAR.  There are two huge , beautiful monastaries.
	(Fatima is on that road too).

	If you get down towards Lisbon, then MAFRA and SINTRA have loads to see.

	AVOID the red road/motorway from TOMAR to LISBON, and Cascais/Estoril
	to LISBON they were definately the worst by a long way,and VERY crowded.

	We took the train from Cascais into Lisbon. They are every 15-20 mins, 
	and the journey is about 20 mins. Cost 50p.  We then took a river cruise
	to see most of the architecture in the old quarter, as well as all the
	landmarks.

	We were chatting to the barman whilst out there, he was saying that most
	of the tourists in Portugal are English, and because of the major cuts 
	in the package holidays from the UK, there are rooms everywhere.

	One Hotel in Estoril - The Palicio(where his mate worked) - 300+ rooms 
	- only had 90 occupied, this was in the first two weeks in July, when 
	they expect to be near capacity.

	So, you should get some good bargains, and loads of places to stay.

	Funny you should ask about unleaded, I read an article whilst we were 
	there which said there were less than 30 petrol stations in the whole 
	of Portugal that sell unleaded - I hope this isn't a problem for you.
	If it is, phone up BP - they seemed to be the most common - and get
	a list of their places that sell unleaded.

	Have fun, we had a great holiday.

	Heather