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Conference terri::cars_uk

Title:	Cars in the UK
Notice:	Please read new conference charter 1.70
Moderator:	COMICS::SHELLEYELD

Created:	Sun Mar 06 1994
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	2584
Total number of notes:	63384

1048.0. "'77 Granada Brake problem......." by CHEFS::CLEMENTSD (Public Sector and Telecomms) Tue Apr 24 1990 16:00

    OK Folks, it's MoT Test time again......
    
    The car is a 1977 3000GL Automatic Granada. 50,000 miles on the
    clock. Last year I went through the braking system with a fine tooth
    comb (new pads/shoes, new seals on calipers, new seals on rear slaves,
    new boots on rear slaves, new seals on master cyl, flushed all old
    fdliud through, replace with new, cleaned all the muck out of the
    rear assemblies, greased all rear pivots with high temp graphited
    grease, adjusted all the handbrake linkages, new anti-squeal shims
    on front) and everything has been hunky-dory since.
    
    Or it has until last week end. The car had stood unused for a week
    and when my wife used it for the first time she found that
    occaisionally a depression of the brake pedal was without significant
    resistance, but that a repeated application gave the normal resistance.
    This does not happen all the time, just occaisionally. Knowing my
    luck when it goes in for the test the brake will behave just like
    I described and the examiner will fail the car. 
    
    As you can see from para 1 I spent a weekend doing about the most
    thorough overhall possible without replacing any static components.
    
    When the brake pedal is pumped with that car stationary, there is
    no detectable change in the fluid level (I keep the brakes adjusted
    up well), and there is no fluid loss at any time.

    Any suggestions?

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
1048.1	Master cyliner seals?	IOSG::MARSHALL	A m��se once bit my sister...	`Tue Apr 24 1990 16:13`	6
	If you're sure there is no fluid being lost at any pipe joints, or fractured pipes, or from slave cylinders, or from the disc calipers, then it sounds like master cylinder seals / pistons to me. Possibly a dodgy pedal linkage. I'd also check the servo. Scott.
1048.2	Not the Master cyl again.......	CHEFS::CLEMENTSD	Public Sector and Telecomms	`Tue Apr 24 1990 17:29`	16
	When I had the master cylinder off the servo to change all the gubbins in it I wasn't able to find any fluid in the cylinder side of the servo diaphragm. There definately isn't any fluid loss any where from the brakes and the pipes are all covered in a dry layer of road dust. It is almost as if the master cylinder piston is sticking in the bore but why should it suddenly start to happen? The only thing that I can think of to do is to bleed the system again, which I'll do tonight, (while I'm at it I'll check over the pedal linkage too) but that's more in desperation than anything else. While I'm at it, I'll take all the sweet wrappers out of the ashtray, too........ ;^) Keep the ideas coming, Scott, I don't really want to spend another Saturday rebuilding the master cylinder!
1048.3	Master Cylinder Mystery?	SHAPES::MCGINTYJ		`Wed Apr 25 1990 12:38`	8
	I had a similar problem on my E reg Peugeot 405 at about 1 year old. Occasionally, and particularly on a cold morning, the pedal would go almost to the floor and then "recover" after the brakes had been used a few times. Anyway, the pad wear warning light came on one night. Took car to garage who replaced pads but couldn't "get the pedal to come back up." After stripping and rebuilding the master cyclinder twice and finding nothing they gave in and replaced it completely. The problem has never occured since - touch wood.
1048.4	last night's efforts........	CHEFS::CLEMENTSD	Public Sector and Telecomms	`Wed Apr 25 1990 14:02`	13
	I am getting to suspect the master cylinder myself now, or perhaps the valve that stops the rears locking up under heavy braking. I had the car up on stands last night (I really must buy a trolley jack!) and there is DEFINATELY no fluid loss anywhere. All the pipes/tubes are dry as a whisker and there is no leakage in sight in any of the brakes. I bled the system completely and succeeded in onle effecting a replacing all the fluid in the pipes and pistons with fresh..... no air anywhere to be found. Test drive showed the braking to be marginally better, but with no real bite, except on repeated depression of the pedal. Pedal comes up from the floor ok, but have lubricated the pivots etc just to be sure. Emptying the ashtray didn't seem to help........;^)
1048.5	ouch.......	CHEFS::CLEMENTSD	Public Sector and Telecomms	`Wed Apr 25 1990 14:06`	4
	I just found out that the master cylinder replacement is �92.50 plus the dreaded VAT.......... :^( Ford Part number is 1563524.
1048.6	New master cylinder needed	VANDAL::BROWNM		`Wed Apr 25 1990 14:46`	11
	Dick, I think that this problem is definately the master cylinder. That is the only place that fluid can leak without coming out of the system. The internal seals will ahve gone allowing fuild to pass from the "pressure" side to the reservoir side while you are pressing the pedal. From experience, changing the seals is a waste of time and money - a new master cylinder is unfortunately the only answer. Mike.
1048.7	...I think so too ...	CHEFS::CLEMENTSD	Public Sector and Telecomms	`Wed Apr 25 1990 15:57`	9
	I think that's my conclusion, too, Mike. The annoying thing is that I didn't decide to rebuild the master cylinder until after I had stripped it down........ the bore was perfect...... ;^( Still the rebuild kit was only �11........;^) I guess that I'm just going to have to bite the bullet on this one. Thanks to all for suggestions/comments...... keep them coming!
1048.8	I've seen Girling ones for c. �50	IOSG::MARSHALL	A m��se once bit my sister...	`Wed Apr 25 1990 16:30`	5
	Don't buy a new master cylinder from Ford; you can get brand name parts a lot cheaper elsewhere. A good start would be the large Autofactors' ads in kit car magazines. Or try Halfords / Les Smith, etc. Scott.
1048.10	I thought of that, too .....\	CHEFS::CLEMENTSD	Public Sector and Telecomms	`Wed Apr 25 1990 17:00`	9
	Halfords wanted �108, MDC about �90....... I have to get it done by saturday as the tax expires end of the month and I can't get a new disc without a MoT cert...... so can't afford the time to mail order. Anybody know of anywhere in Reading that I could go? (for a Master Cylinder, that is ......;^)...)
1048.12	thanks, elaine, but.......	CHEFS::CLEMENTSD	Public Sector and Telecomms	`Wed Apr 25 1990 18:52`	3
	I tried Edmunds Walker...... they wanted �96.38 + VAT. So far, the cheapest is Ford.
1048.14	not me	IOSG::MITCHELL	Elaine	`Thu Apr 26 1990 09:02`	4
	I think those thanks should be directed to Derek..... Elaine
1048.15	......!!!!!OOPS!!!!!......	CHEFS::CLEMENTSD	Public Sector and Telecomms	`Thu Apr 26 1990 09:42`	3
	Sorry...... it's getting hectic round here trying to keep the grannie on the road, follow this conference AND do a job....... put it down to a mental aberration......
1048.16	Thanks folks, the master cylinder was it ......	CHEFS::CLEMENTSD	Public Sector and Telecomms	`Mon Apr 30 1990 15:23`	5
	Have now obtained new MoT certificate......... except that they flagged that the rear tyre sidewalls were stsrting to perish! (Well, they are 8 years old).