Conference terri::cars_uk

    I have been given a present by my brother-in-law of a Citroen XM
    FOLDER! Yes, this is one step ahead of the normal brochure. It was
    compiled for the press (he is the motoring correspondent for the local
    paper). 
    
    It is here at my desk (1st floor, Crescent, Basingstoke) for anyone to
    borrow. I have no need for it as the price is out of my league (at the
    moment), so if anyone has a strong enough urge, I MIGHT even let it
    leave my possesion permanently.
    
    Andrew

    I have a 20 minute promotional videotape on the XM if anyone gets
    bored with television. Glad to lend it to anyone who asks. Please
    reply to shapes::loughlini rather than this note though.
    
    Ian
    

    If the contents of the video are anything to go by then I don't think
    much of the car. 
    
    Did it tell or show you anything interesting?
    
    Tony
    

    Well the video showed ME something!. It showed that BMW's/Merc's/Granada's
    can't handle as well as the XM!
    
    Richard (who also has the video)

    
    Hypothetical time: [my wife likes the XM so I owe it to her to
    investigate]
    
    My commute to work is about 30 miles, and over half of this is on
    narrow back roads, including several miles of single track roads some
    of it so rough that the suspension of most cars bottoms out at 10 mph.
    
    The surface is completely gone at one point leaving several hundred
    metres of dirt. I have a couple of water splashes - one about 4" deep
    and the other a little deeper. I also have to contend with deep mud in
    the village where I live (a neighbour tells me that nobody tries it
    with less than a Land Rover after frost following rain, and one of the
    local farmers has got an Esarco 8 wheel drive out, another drives
    around in a Haflinger now).
    
    So the burning question of the hour is has the XM got enough ground
    clearance, enough suspension travel and adequate road holding to handle
    this lot, or can I go back to Ann and tell her that we have no choice
    but to get a Land Rover ... (A Ford Sierra definately couldn't take it,
    I had to go a long roundabout route after rain when driving one. My
    Renault Espace makes me nervous in the mud since it hasn't any road
    holding in these conditions).
    
    If the vote is favourable I'll try and find a showroom that'll let me
    test drive one over my pet torture tracks...
    
    /. Ian .\

    Can't remember seeing a quote as to the final ground clearance on the
    XM, but like the BX is it adjustable. I'll check the (very
    comprehensive) sales book, otherwise suggest you go to the dealers
    armed with a tape measure!.
    
    Richard

I went -- they had it set as low as possible to make it look nice and they were 
most reluctant to let me crank it up...

If I were buying instead of considering a company vehicule I would have given
up there and then...

/. Ian .\

Fleet have got an XM for you to try; give 'em a call..

I had a quick squirt in it yesterday, and was quite impressed.
It's a 2.0 Sei (I think), and quite well equipped - all the goodies,
leather seats, two back windows...

You'll probably find it easier to get this one dirty than a local garages'
demo car!!

Peter.

    Re .17
    
    How about an Espace 4wd - I think its called a Quadra, or summat.
    
    Steve
    

The Espace Quaddra would have been a front runner, but it just had a price
increase that took it over the �19250 tax barrier, with the result that the
current quote for a Land Rover Discovery on the VTX quotes would work out
cheaper for me (including tax and fuel - the diesel Disco is also a bit cheaper
to run than the petrol Espace, especially the 4wd one).

So I may very well try and get the fleet demo XM dirty - I'll even run it 
through a car wash before I take it back... but the Discovery still looks good.

Failing that I might get a battery powered Peugeot mumble (for my wife to drive) 
and buy myself the 101, or its Volvo counterpart to get to work in...

/. Ian .\

    Whilst looking at Citroens....
    
    The 2CV has good clearance and was built especially for the conditions
    you describe!
    
    
    Andrew

    According to my press-release folder, the XM has 5.5 inches clearance
    at standard suspension setting. I suggest you call the technical desk
    to get an informed figure for the highest suspension setting.
    
    By the way, did you know the suspension "softness" on the XM, is 
    automatically adjusted by a 'computer' as you drive? All the details
    are in this here folder!
    
    Andrew

Yes, on paper the XM suspension is *exactly* what I'm looking for, since it
should go from soft, smooth, motorway cruise setting to the ideal setting for a
cart track in less than 1/100th of a second.

If it has 5.5" of ground clearance on low than it is better than my current 
vehicle (which has 5.5" but can't be raised) I'll try and get an "official"
answer.

Incidentally... I had a blowout last night on the way home: on the agricultural
section the entire sidewall blew out on one of the rear tyres. I went to ATS
and got a new one and they inform me that they can't replace the old with the 
same because it had 'T' rated tyres (light duty) on and their book says that the
British insurance companies want the vehicle fitted with 'H' rated tyres (up
to 130 mph - rather more than the car can do). The tyre specialist said that
the side wall probably gave out due to the heavy stress of the bad roads...

He rang PHH for me to see if they'd agree to replace all the tyres with those
required by the insurance companies, and the jobsworth at PHH refused it, saying
that they can only be replaced when blown or when worn out, despite the ratings.

I now feel that I am driving a time bomb: I barely avoided sideswiping the 
vehicle into a hawthorn hedge when a rear went and I shudder to think what would 
have happened if a front had blown on the motorway. 

(I may have the ratings reversed - I'm so mad about this I could dismember 
someone with my bare hands...)

/. Ian .\

You MUST know somewhere where you can leave the car and be sure to find
ALL the tyres slashed when you return ... :-)

Mark

    The 5.5" clearance is confimed both in the extremely comprehensive
    sales booklet, and the detailed book_about_the_car I bought for Xmas.
    
    Nowhere does it state how much further travel there is in the
    system. However, the suspension is based on the BX but improved, and
    that has 6" travel from normal to high.
    
    Richard

I drove an XM for a short time yesterday and was not impressed, especially 
when I found out the price! Not sure of the exact model but it was a 2litre
with a spoiler on the back.

Most notable points were;

	Engine noisy on startup.
	Handbrake has worst user interface I've seen yet.
	Very notchy gear selection.
	Handles well but there's no "feel".
	Good brakes - very well balanced.
	Power steering - again no feel.
	Steering column controls, thick and cumbersome.
	Good visability.
	Nice upholstery.
	Overall driving noise levels - high.

Overall;

	Pleasent cruiser, not for the serious driver.

I'm much happier with my SRi now!

Dave.

�	Handbrake has worst user interface I've seen yet.

It has exactly the same one as all American cars.

(and some Mercedes).

�	Power steering - again no feel.

And this is the special British version fitted because the native French one
is considered to soft for British tastes!


/. Ian .\

re .30:

>It has exactly the same one as all American cars.

That's no recommendation! I could not figure out how to use it for anything 
other than park. Could you explain how you use it for;

	Emergency's (footbrake brake failure)
	Handbrake turns

Dave.

    >>      <<< Note 658.31 by SHAPES::KERRELLD "Dave Kerrell @UCG 781 x4101" >>>
    
>>	Handbrake turns

    Ye gods! a handbrake turn in a citroen == turning head over heels!
    
    Because the suspension is height adjustable, and the rear suspension is
    traling arms, The wheel base varies slightly depending on the height of
    the car. Therefore, the handbrake on all hydropneumatic citroens work
    on the front wheels, the one the drive goes to. 
    
    Otherwise you have the possibility of the front wheels locked by the
    gears, the rear wheels locked by the handbrake and the car trying to
    settle down on the suspension and the tyres scrubbing.
    
    Richard

re -1:

No good to me then.

Dave :-)

    Well last week I had the fleet demo for a couple of days. In summary
    I'd say 8 out of 10, could have done better. Nearly everything has been
    executed competently, but considering the price and opposition some
    things just aren't quite good enough!.
    
    Things I liked: Handling, overall performance, looks, size, space,
    features. The ride is superb, driven hard or gentle it was always
    competent and flawless.
    
    What I didn't like:  That blasted parking brake!!!! What a palaver, and
    as my wife pointed out after trying, imposible if you've got a tight
    skirt on! (I don't often, nor I suspect did the designers :-)). Also
    impossible if your inching uphill in traffic, e.g. from decpark to the
    motorway roundabout every evening. The result is you creatively avoid
    using the damn thing!. The inner half of the surface of the passenger
    door mirror is obscured by the door pillar, a case of design
    over-ruling sense. The view rearward is restricted by the low roof and
    that kick-up tail that's gives it it's character. 
    
    The engine noise was harsher than I'd expect from the class of car.
    Though it's performance was reasonably good for a 1995 injection in
    that size and weight of car.
    
    Handling was superb, you didn't really need the sports/automatic
    suspension switch as it does it itself, put in I think just to counter
    the likes of the carlton with the active ride modifier. In sports you
    could just about detect a harsher ride on a rough surface, but in
    automatic you could never say that it was too soft and needed to be
    firmed up manually.
    
    No, given the money I wouldn't get one (That'll surprise the author of
    the base note :-)  )
    
    Richard

    Having run a ZX for 8000 miles, I'm now a Citroen-phile, and I'm
    interested in the XM diesel for future transport...
    
    All reports seem pretty complimentary about these cars, except for that
    wretched handbrake (parking brake, I suppose you should call it)! What
    is so awful about it? It appears to be the one feature of the car that
    draws universal criticism.
    
    I looked through the window of an XM over the weekend, and there was no
    obvious handbrake in the place I'd normally expect to find one. Do I
    gather that the XM has a parking brake along the lines of American
    automatics? If that's the case, how do you do a successful hill start
    (or should you buy an extra foot when you buy the car?)?
    
    I'd be interested to hear from any XM owner/driver (especially diesel)
    as to how much of a pain the parking brake is, and what kind of diesel
    mpg you get in normal use.
    
    
    |SD
                                  

    
    Re: .35
    
    I'm not sure how you can have an American style parking brake unless
    you have an automatic...'though someone will probably tell me...
    
    You could try looking under the dash about knee height, that's where
    older French cars used to have their handbrake, maybe they've gone back
    to that wierd design...

The XM does, indeed, have a old-US-style parking brake, but it's not quite as
"binary" in operation as its transatlantic counterparts, more like the old
"umbrella" style, as far as I can make out, so it should still be 
possible (note that I don't say "easy"!) to use it to hold the car in, for 
example, a hill-start.

As an aside, when I did just this on one of San Francisco's famous hills,
driving a Honda with a "normal " handbrake,  my (native) passenger was 
scandalised, and told me that, when you're taught to drive over there, you 
have to do a hill-start without the handbrake.....in the test, too.
This may be a holdover from the days of the "foot-operated parking brake".


ian

    I drove an XM shortly after their intoduction, and to be honest
    I can't remember how the brake worked! I did do a test "hill start"
    without any problems, though.
    
    According to tests, up to 40 mpg is quite likely on the diesel
    versions. I'd get one, if I could afford it!
    
    Peter.
    

    I test drove one for a few days: It is a pain, and really only suited
    for automatics, so why they put it on an otherwise superb car I can't
    imagine.
    
    The brake is in two parts, a latching pedal, and a dashboard lever to
    set/release the latch. In the UK it's on the right which is a pain.
    
    As you come to a stop, you push the lever in, and stop with the RH stop
    pedal or else the normal one, and then juggle feet to put the brake on.
    For hill starts you set the balance, then pull the lever to release the
    pedal. 
    
    In all I found it easier to stop and quickly switch feet to
    accelerator/clutch and balance that way than the tedium of this
    multistage process.
    
    Richard

    A few questions for those that drive/lease a Citroen XM....
    
    Can anybody give me any ideas about driver cost for the XM estate with
    either low level trim petrol engine (Si) or the Turbo-diesel?
    
    Are there any drivers of the turbo-diesel that can confirm the sort of
    consumption figures mentioned in the brochure?
    
    Anybody any experience of towing a caravan with an XM?

    I have been running an XM 2.0i estate for over 6 months and it is an
    excellent estate vehicle. Bearing in mind it is an estate and it is BIG
    (slightly bigger than a Volvo 740/940), it performs very well. Handling
    is excellent and the ride is v. smooth. It comes into its own on
    motorways, effortless cruising. Mpg figures tend to be lower than
    quoted , motorway driving up around 30mpg, short/town journeys 22mpg.
    If you really thrash it (ie. until the throttle limiter cuts in @
    6000rpm ) then for a big beast it really moves , but so done the petrol
    gauge! - you don't get something for nothing.
    
    The multi-height control gives some novel capability - for instance if
    you actually handwash the beast , you can drop it down to a couple of
    inches of the group and wash ALL the roof without getting your armpits
    wet ! actualy this is very useful for lifting in heavy loads
    (mother-in-law) either at low or high position. Similary this facility is used for jacking the car up
    should you ever get a flat , pump it high /slide in jack / drop in low
    and heh presto the car pumps itself off the ground or so I'm told !
    
    The active suspension is very good and for most part leaving it in
    automatic works fine all the time. However passengers (esp in back)
    seem to feel sick on bendy roads as it turns the bumps into a rocking
    motion - this is reduced by going into sport mode and let everybody
    feel the bumps !
    
    Totting it up -
    
    PRO's
    good handling (for an estate)
    comfortable
    effortless
    some good features (keep on discovering new ones all the time!)
    Multi height controls - must be good for towing/loading 
    
    CON's
    Its expensive on the lease scheme 
    Heavy on petrol and tyres 
    Build quality (should be better at this level)
    
    As usual its all a question of taste.
    

    
    	When I sat in the Hatchback soon after they came out, my head was
    hard against the roof and the Sunroof could only be described as small,
    especially compared to "my" (3rd) BX Diesel.  The BX has sufficient
    headroom for me if the Sunblind is kept out of the way and, sitting
    straight up, my head is well within the Sunroof reveal.  I couldn't do
    this in the XM because the Sunroof is so small, both side to side and
    fore to aft.
    
    	I am not that tall at just 6 foot, but I do have short (fat, hairy
    - no!) legs at 31" inside measurement.  So the question for me is: does
    the Estate version have more headroom?  Obviously I'm looking for
    driver headroom, but would be interested in the rear headroom too.
    
    				Malcolm.

	
    
 >   	I am not that tall at just 6 foot, but I do have short (fat, hairy
 >   - no!) legs at 31" inside measurement.  So the question for me is: does
  
	Maybe we should apply to car magazines to test drive cars as a pair

	
	Heather.........5'9" with 36" inside leg

    re .42
    
    Yes, but you have to keep your head down anyway, to see out of those
    glasses.....88*)
    
    Richard
    
    

    re .41
    
    wrt headroom - I can't imagine there is any difference in the front
    seats of an XM estate versus saloon (or is it hatch ?). Perhaps there
    is some difference in the back however as the roof line differs
    somewhat there.
    
    I guess the only sure test is to find one and test it out for real.
    
    a drivers seat height adjuster would be a solution ? the base XM is missing
    a few of these items, eg. headlamp washers, map pockets - shame ! 
    
    Paul
     fix. 

    In case anyone wishes to give some helpful comments, I'm considering
    one of these as they look a fairly attractive proposition for me.  I
    reckon around �6000 or less for a G/H or even J 3.0 Si or SEi.  My
    criteria are a large comfortable car with a powerful engine so I'll be
    looking at Senators and Carltons aswell.
    
    tmp

    

o Citroen XM 3.0V6 24V, manual, has multipoint injection+catalyst.

o Problem 1:
  Occasionaly, when steady cruising in top, light throttle, around 3000rpm, get
  momentary hesitation - as if ignition switched off/on, followed by couple of
  seconds slight power loss, then all is well again. Typically happens about
  every 5 mins. in steady motorway cruising.
    
o Problem 2:
  In normal give and take driving, when taking power off then on again,
  pronounced jerk on power-on take-up.  Thought it was transmission
  snatch/backlash initially, but definitely not so. It's more as if some kind
  of throttle valve or switch is cutting in too sharply, rather than
  progressively.  It can  happen even when accelerator, after power-off, is
  reapplied very gently and progressively. Throttle cable and external linkages
  have all been lubricated and seem to work smoothly.  Might it be related to
  the fuel cut-off which turns off the fuel when on the overrun - perhaps
  cutting in again too suddenly?  If so, I would expect to notice this when
  simply coming to a halt, but there's no sign of it then. I'm toying with the
  idea of removing the air cleaner and dribbling neat Redex or equivalent into
  the air intake with the engine running, while I open and close the throttle a
  few times - this way perhaps lubricating some internal butterfly linkage
  which may be sticking.  Or maybe that's v.unlikely to be the problem? (Plus
  maybe that concentration of Redex in the exhaust, even for only a minute or
  so, might bugger the catalyst?  I've asked Redex themselves about this and
  they won't commit to it's not causing damage - though they do say firmly that
  normal concentrations of Redex as a fuel additive are ok with a catalyst,
  even though this is not stated on the Redex containers).

I don't know if problems 1&2 are related.

Plugs, air cleaner, fuel filter have been renewed recently.

Although car has done 75k miles it basically goes darn well - goes whooping up
to the red line no trouble, and I'm certain that the engine is fine
mechanically. Fuel consumption seems no more horrible than you'd expect.

It is also owner-driven, and its owner is loth to start forking out big dosh
for Citroen main dealer diagnostic tests, given that it may be something dead
simple.
    
    Any suggestions?

    The problem is, these new-fangled all-contained fancy-schmancy
    electronic engines these days leave little room for diagnosis without a
    computer.
    
    It honestly could be loads of things. I could only suggest Citreon or
    whoever make the ECU take a look at it on their computer... apart from
    that, I'm at a loss.
    
    Soz :-(
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    As for squirting Redex down the throttle intake, I'd suggest WD40 or
    something similar would do a far better job.
    
    Cheers,
    Dan

    I was looking at buying one of these XM thingies, the SE variants are
    pretty luxurious and the V6 looked pretty quick aswell.  Trouble is,
    the problem/solutions fill a manual the size of a small telephone
    directory (allegedly).  They were mostly electrics problems.  They
    replaced the contacts with gold ones after about March 1992 so the
    newer ones don't have the problem.
    
    If you have one of the older ones, maybe you could try and get some
    free advice from a friendly dealer :-)  They may know what causes the
    problem already.
    
    tmp  (Mr Jealous)

    I had a similar problem with my SS1 which was caused by a faulty 
    "throttle idle detector switch". Basically a switch that tells the ECU
    that the throttle is at idle point.....it was set to switch over at
    3000 rpm instead of ~1000rpm. In the end an easy adjustment fixed it.
    
    Barry.

Re: "momentary hesitation..."

Maybe its something simple, like slack fan belt(s).

Does it get worse when things like wipers, headlamps, etc. are all
on at the same time?

Chris

    Dodgy HT leads ????.....
    
    Dave_what_do_I_know!!