Conference 7.286::home_work

There's only one brand I've seen advertised lately and that's First Alert.
I've seen them in a number of stores - I think Bradlees has them on sale this
week ($39?).

					Steve

    
    They also had them in a recent K-mart flyer for the same price.
    

    
       Aubuchon's flyer had them @ $39 this week also.
    
                      Mark

    
    Hmmmm.  I checked the Bradlee's in my town ( Milford, Ma) last Sunday and
    they were already sold out.  Spagg's has so many inquiries that they
    have a sign posted stating they are out of stock.  H/Q, and Home Depot
    are out of stock and don't know when they will get any. Aubuchon
    Hardware in Littleton doesn't have any.  Sears in the Pheasant Lane
    Mall is out of stock.  My local Ace hardware doesn't normally stock them
    and is trying to see if they can locate any. 
    
    I'll call K-Mart.   Sure sounds like something is suddenly creating
    a demand !  If anyone has actually seen any on the shelf, please send
    me mail.  I would appreciate it.

re: .4

The "something" was an incident last week in which some children, including 
friends who were over for the night, died as a result of carbon monoxide 
poisoning.

Carbon monoxide is particularly bad stuff, because it's odorless, and the 
symptoms sometimes mimic diseases.

Clay

    
    Yes, but a good symptom (if your not sleeping) is observing
    your skin turning reddish, along with dizzyness.
    
    Fred
    

    
    Where do you plan on installing the detector when you get it?
    
    I read a quick description of them, and it seems that they are
    one-shot.  You have to buy a new sensor module each time it goes off.
    I had planned to put one in the basement, which has a small furnace
    room, a small family room and a 2-car garage.
    
    This would probably mean that there would be some level of C0 there
    from time to time, so the thing might be aliasing too often.
    
    C
    

    
>    Where do you plan on installing the detector when you get it?
    

    The show that I saw on these said to install them outside the 
    bedroom area on the ceiling.  They tend to look like fire detectors
    from what I saw of them.  

    Carbon monoxide is insidious.  Years ago our furnace was emitting
    it at a slow rate from a hole in what I call the exhaust pipe area.
    I was the only one of the four of us at home all day.  I only felt
    good when I was out of the house.  We finally spotted the problem
    and the guy we called in said to sleep with the windows open until
    we replaced the furnace.  It doesn't always cause death but it does
    cause illness.  I can attest to that.  This was in the good ole days!

    justme....jacqui    

    
    Regarding the previous question about "one-shot".  The literature
    I have seen does not mention this, but the detectors seem to come
    with a combination battery pack/sensor module that must be replaced
    every three years - unlike a smoke detector with no replaceable
    parts, other than the battery if so equipped. 
    
    And a phone call to K-Mart says "none in stock".  Maybe this is a
    good business to be in.

    I recently read that Carbon Monoxide is heavier than air and sinks
    making it especially dangerous to children and people sleeping in bed.  
    
    I would surmise that locating the detector closer to floor level would
    be best.
    
    Marv
    

    
    re 10
    
    Do you happen to remember which article?  That's exactly the data I was
    looking for.  I did a search on the ProQuest database here in ZK0, and
    found an an article in the Journal of Occupational Hazards.
    
    It says the CO2 is heavier than air, but doesn't say the same for
    CO.  CO displaces oxygen, which seems to imply that it diffuses through
    the air and will be found evenly distributed.
    
    c
    

�CO displaces oxygen, which seems to imply that it diffuses through
�    the air and will be found evenly distributed.
    
    CO displaces oxygen in the bloodstream.

    
    By "displaced" the OH article means that heavy gases like CO2 and H2S
    physically take the place of air and asphyxiate victims.   From the
    article, it's not clear whether CO "displaces" O2 in air. 
    
    In the blood, it chemically bonds with haemoglobin and prevents the
    uptake of O2 (which is still present).  Even if there is still the
    required 19.5% of O2 in the air, 1500 ppm of CO will cause serious
    illness.  The question is, does it "pool" (displace air) like C02 or
    does it dissolve throughout the house.  Which means do I put the
    detector up by the bedrooms, or down in the family room?
    
    C
    
    
    
    
    c
    
    
     

    I believe it was in the Science Section of the Boston Globe, dated
    22 November.
    
    Marv
    

�Which means do I put the
�    detector up by the bedrooms, or down in the family room?
    
    You also have to ask where is the leak most likely to occur.
    
    I would think that the detectors would include instructions on where to
    position the detectors.

    The Family Handyman (Nov. 93 issue) says "... homes with gas
    appliances, fireplaces or wood stoves, oil heat, or attached
    garages should have at least one carbon monoxide detector near
    the sleeping area.  A second detector in the utility room
    provides extra safety."
    
    For retailer info on the First Alert model, call 800-323-9005.
    The Jan. 92 issue  has a full article on carbon monoxide.  The article
    does not say whether or not the gas rises - I suspect it doesn't
    matter - it permeates the air no matter where it comes from.
    
    The Nov. issue says you can get a free brochure from:
    
    	The Carbon Monoxide Information Bureau
    	Dept. TFH
    	325 W. Huron St., Room 315
    	Chicago, IL 60610

    CO is slightly lighter than O2, and about the same density as N2. The
    differences are small. It is probably possible to have a layer of cold
    CO underneath a layer of air, and a layer of warm CO above the same
    layer of air. It is more likely that normal air currents will be
    sufficient to keep CO mixed evenly with air and prevent any separation.
    
    Andrew

    Both Lechmere and Somerville Lumber claim to have the First Alert
    model on sale this week (~$39), but the Somerville in Bedford, NH
    didn't have any (didn't even seem to carry it) as of last Wednesday.
    
    				Steve

The reason you place near the sleeping area is not because that's where the 
CO collects, but because if you place it anywhere else, it won't wake you up
and therefore, you'll never wake up.  Ever.  Ideally, you want to have two 
and gang them together so when one triggers, they both sound, as is code for
smokes in multifamily buildings here in Nashua.

-B

    
    re last several,
    
    Many thanks for the additional info.  Sounds like
    2 detectors is the way for me to go.
    
    C.
      

A friend of mine bought a First Alert CO detector and asked me about where
I thought it should be mounted. Well, I had no real idea, apart from the
fact that CO is not a lot heavier than air.

So the friend went to a local fire department and spoke with the Hazardous
Materials Officer.  Seems that the First Alert CO detector may not be all
that it is cracked up to be ...

It is certified to approxiomately 100 ppm CO ... below this level, it may
not be effective.

Now, short term exposures (1 hour) to more than 100 ppm are hazardous, so the
detector will work fine for a major problem of incomplete combustion ... 
for example where a major fracture of the combustion chamber has occured
or where something has suddenly plugged the burner fresh air supply.

BUT long term (6-8 hours) at approximately 35 ppm are equally hazardous ...
and the First Alert detector may not work at those levels.  These are the
more likely kinds of failures too ... where the combustion chamber has
developed a small crack ... where you're burning logs and depriving the
furnace of air and so on.  Sometimes these minor CO causes produce all
kinds of health problems without anyone noticing.

So this fire department did not recommend laying out $40 for a detector,
with a $20 replacement module every couple year, that may not detect a
fault problem early enough anyway.

There is a detector called NightHawk which is certified to detect down to
35 ppm.  It costs about $80 and has an LED display which displays the
measured CO2.  (Available at Wal-Mart in Colorado SPrings)

As to where to mount it ... CO is slightly heavier than Air, but diffuses
well ... so the detector should be placed approximately 5' above the
floor on the level where there is a fuel burning appliance if you don't
have forced air heat.  If you use forced air heat you just need it on the
sleeping floor.  (If you have a 2 storey with furnace in the basement,
you don't need one in the basement if all the sleeping quarters are on
the top floor ... If you have a house with sleeping quarters on two
floors, put the detector on the lower sleeping floor ... the person
who is awakened can open windows and alert those on the upper floor ...
this isn't like a fire ... where everyone must hear and get out fast
for physical safety.  CO danger can be fixed quickly.)

As to their recommendation ... at $80, the cost is probably better
spent by ensuring that you have your fuel burning appliances fully
checked out once per year, and invest in the spot detectors at $3
and keep an eye on it regularly.  Not only will you save the $80 cost,
you will ensure that your appliance is operating at high efficiency.
You might want to consider it if you have an older furnace that you
are trying to get a little extra life from ... viz 20-25 years!

Stuart

    Lechmere at Pheasant Lane Mall (Nashua, NH) is no longer selling the
    First Alert CO Detector.  The department manager said that they
    couldn't get any more from the manufacturer.

    -- Ward

    	Just a thought but there are cards which have a spot on them that
    will turn color when exposed to CO. I'm thinking that maybe the CO
    detector is just something that uses electronics to detect this color
    change. 
    
    	Since the cards are not reusable, this would explain why you keep
    having to replace something every so often or when the unit trips.
    
    	Ray

    I purchased one of these detectors a few months ago because someone
    told me that if I burn Coal I should really have one.  
    The interesting thing is if you read all the articles in the
    newspapers and even the instructions that came with the first alert
    it only mentions using them if you burn gas, wood or oil.  Never
    have I read coal.   Whats the scoop??    

    I suspect it's only because coal is "obsolete" and nobody writing
    the articles thinks about it.  CO is certainly as much a problem
    with coal as with any other fuel.

    Why would you say coal is "obsolete"????
    they are still manufacturing stoves and coal is still easily
    available.

    
    Maybe because it might not warn of other risks. One of the byproducts
    of low-oxygen coal combustion is H2S which is instantly fatal 1000 ppm,
    whereas C0 has to be at 4000 ppm for about an hour to kill you. 
    Although H2S stinks, it also desensitizes your sense of smell in 2
    mins, so the odour appears to go away even though the concentration is
    still high enough to kill you.

    Personally, *I* don't think coal is obsolete; I'm suggesting that
    the people who write the articles think it is (or don't think about
    it at all).

    RE: .29
    
    I would add, people who haven't used it to the list.
    
    Marc H.

    
    like Stuart said earlier, its kinda sad that everybody is going out to
    buy a First Alert detector. A local Colorado company with just a few
    employees came out with a detector a year or so ago, and got UL
    approval for it. In addition to detecting high fatal levels of CO, it
    can detect over time a buildup or constant stream of low level CO,
    which isn't good for your health.
    
    Its a shame they didn't sell as many  of them as First Alert seem to
    have, I hate to see the big guy always win! Perhaps the difference was
    marketing, First Alert made something that looks like a smoke alarm, an
    accepted device that we all have buried in our conciousness as a 'smart
    thing' to buy. Also First Alert is selling retail and not through
    distributors.
    
    BTW, Hugh Woods in C Springs had around 20 First Alerts on the shelf,
    but for $49.95!
    
    Simon

    > like Stuart said earlier, its kinda sad that everybody is going out to
    > buy a First Alert detector. A local Colorado company with just a few

    The whole point of this string has been to help decide whether these
    things are placebos or if they offer some protection.  They probably
    offer *some* protection under certain circumstances, so it's not such a
    bad deal.  The cost of a furnace maintenance visit is still
    significantly higher, but well worth considering.  As I already get the
    furnace inspected biennially, I'll probably opt for the detector as extra
    insurance.

    C

>    The whole point of this string has been to help decide whether these
>    things are placebos or if they offer some protection.  They probably
>    offer *some* protection under certain circumstances, so it's not such a
>    bad deal.  The cost of a furnace maintenance visit is still
>    significantly higher, but well worth considering.  As I already get the
>    furnace inspected biennially, I'll probably opt for the detector as extra
>    insurance.


Given the very high levels of CO to make these things trigger, I would
say they are expensive placebos ...  They make people think there is nothing
wrong with their furnace because the detector doesn't go off ... when they
may be getting a low level CO poisoning all the time and really should have
their furnace fixed.  Not only is it a placebo, it is potentially a dangerous
one at that!

Stuart

    
    I see it this way. The detector triggers at 100 ppm.   The OSHA limit
    is 35ppm for 8 hours.  This way under the 1500 ppm it takes to even
    make you feel ill.  Even 3500ppm for less than an hour doesn't kill
    you.  In circumstances where a furnace goes bad quickly, the device is
    quite likely to be of *some* use.   The $3.50 chemical indicator stuck
    on the furnace will tell me if there are persistent low levels.  ;-)
    
    Colin
    

    I saw them! I saw them!!!  :^)
    
    The Caldors on Lincoln Street in Worcester MA, has many (I saw about 
    a dozen or so) on display on the end racks at the cash registers.  I 
    was at the register furthest from the doors just last night and saw lots 
    of them.  I did forget to check the prices though.
    
    Jt
    

    Ya know, I just re-read through this strting and noticed that the CM
    Detectors I saw look like "one-shot" deals and not like smoke
    detectors.  If I head back soon I'll try and get more info but I'm sure
    a phone call to the store could help you with the details better.
    
    Jt

    
    
     Spags has some CM Detectors. Saw them with the fireplace stuff. 
    
    Bob

    Re: .18
    
    The Milford Country Store (Milford, NH) sells an "S-Tech" brand of
    CO detector; this plugs into a wall outlet and does not appear to
    have a battery backup.  Also, it does not claim to have a sensor
    that needs to be replaced periodically (though I only have the
    manufacturer's brochure, not unit instructions, to look at.)  The
    price is $59.99, model COAH-1.
    
    It lists sensitivity as follows:
    
    	CO Concentration (PPM)		Maximum response time (minutes)
    		100				90
    		200				35
    		400				15
    
    This same firm also offers a model which has smoke-detector
    interface wiring, the COAH-3.  Other models are COAH-2 (110V 
    wire-in) and COAH-4 (12V wire-in).
    
    The national distributor's phone number is 800-6-GE-KERR (or
    417-426-5504).

    
    I picked up a few of the "Dead Stop" brand CO indicators.
    These are $3.90 each and sold through airplane catalogs.
    They are only good at detecting long-term low level exposure
    so are no substitute for a detector.  However, they work
    at below the levels that trigger a detector - ~50ppm.
    
    C

    Just FYI the latest issue of CR tests availible CO detectors
    including 'card' types.
    
          Dean

There are several references in this note to $3-$4 "card" detectors that 
change color in the presence of CO.  Does anyone know if any local (central 
MA) stores stock these simple detectors?  One by each wood stove would add 
some piece of mind.  I'd like to try that before getting one of the beeping 
detectors that isn't likely to tell me as much.

Also - I saw a TV commercial for a detector with a digital readout to 
indicate the CO level (and there's a reference to that in an earlier reply 
here).  Has anyone seen that one available locally?

Thanks,

/Don

Consumer Reports says the cards are worthless.  If you want one, you can
find them at most hardware stores.

I have yet to see in a store a model with a digital readout.  I see them
advertised in magazines.

				Steve

    Well, the Cole-Palmer catalog lists a digital CO monitor accurate
    to + or - 5ppm in the range 0 to 200 ppm, + or - 10ppm at full scale
    (2000 ppm), for a mere $595.00.  But that may be a bit more than
    you have in mind....
    
    They also have toxic gas detector kits that are somewhat cheaper
    (but still pricey).
    
    If by chance you're interested, the address is:
    
    Cole-Palmer Instrument Co.
    7425 North Oak Park Ave
    Niles, Illinois  60714
    (800) 323-4340
    
    

    
    It's true that the cards are no substitute for a detector but they may
    be a useful indicator of air quality in enclosed spaces.  I have one
    stuck on the door between the workshop/furnace room and garage.  It's
    right at eye level where I see it every morning leaving the house.
    (You can also put them in your car).  
    
    This is to supplement the electronic detector which is adjacent to the
    bedrooms.  I think that this might at least give me a hint of any
    potential or intermittent problems at levels that might be too low to
    trigger the detector, or which might be localized to the garage and
    workshop and too remote from the detector.
    
    The effect of CO on the crystals is cumulative, so they react to
    long-term low level exposure. 
    
    
    Colin
    

I saw one of the digital-readout units in Hugh M. Woods in Colorado Springs
(well, you didn't say what "local" was ;-), but Hugh M.  Woods is in the
same chain as Sommerville Lumber).  It was $49.95, where as the other
electronic detectors without display were $39.95.  Sorry, I don't remember
brand or model name.

    I'm pretty sure I saw one of the digital read-out CO detectors in
    Home Depot some months back.

    
    I saw the digital CO detector this past weekend at Walmart in Hooksett,
    New Hamphire for $48.
    

I have one of the card types that my sister-in-law gave to us.  However,
it had already expired (by the date on the outside of the package) and
it is listed as only being good for 30 days.  Kind of just tried it out
for the heck of it to see if it would change at all, but I don't suspect
a problem (both furnace and chimney inspected/cleaned recently) so it's
not really doing any detecting duty.  More of just, well, it seems good
for a very limited time anyway, and I'd really like something a bit more
long lasting.

PeterT

    
    
    I saw a digital detector at Walmart in Hudson, Mass.
    
    mike

   The alarm for CO detector went off this morning.  My wife had woken up 
   just a bit earlier and could smell something unusual.  It turned out to 
   be a sulfur small coming from the coal stove.  
   The stove is an Alaska Stoker II, it is self feeding (electric motor).
   Up until this year we have been running it with a power vent.  This
   year we had a chimney built and connected the stove to it.  When the
   contractor finished the chimney he showed me the draw.  He lit a cigarette
   a held it near the opening to the chimney, it drew very well.  He moved
   the cigarette around and the smoke continued to go to the opening, you can
   hear the wind it generates.  The stove is lit via self starting charcoal,
   I put a few broken pieces on the coal shovel, light and place in the stove.
   The charcoal almost went out it was drawing so well.
   WELL this morning there appeared to be no draw at all.  After the alarm 
   went off I checked the stove and the stove pipe was cold (it is usually 
   warm but able to put my hands on it).
   The weather conditions here (Worcester, MA) are freezing rain.  
   I live on top of a hill.
   Why would the chimney stop drawing?
   What can I do to prevent this from happening again?


Picture of stove:
                        ------------------
                        ------------------ - Blower on back
                        |                |
                        |                |
                        |                |
                        |   ----------   |
                        |   |  ____  |   | - door with glass window
                        |   | |    | |   |
                        |   | |    | |   |
                        |   | |____| |   |
                        |   |        |   |
                        |   ----------   |
                        |                |
                        |                |
                        |   ----------   |
                        |   |        |   | - clean out with ash pan
                        |   |        |   |
                        |   ----------   |
                        |                |
                        ------------------

 Stove pipe starts at the bottom (at back of stove behind clean out door)
 of stove goes out takes a 90 degree up, goes up about 4 feet then goes 
 90 degrees out to the chimney.
 

    I have seen installations where the stove pipe has 45� bends
    instead of 90� bends.  I would assume this would be to prevent
    soot, creosote...whatever from accumulating on the flat stretch
    to the chimney.  Maybe there is some/alot of sediment in this
    area, maybe the chimney needs cleaning...let us know what you
    find.
    
          Dean

>	-< Were you close enough to digital to set it off? >-

	    I hope so!  HLO is just down the street.  

>   Why would the chimney stop drawing?
>   What can I do to prevent this from happening again?

	   Coal stoves don't build up creosote, so maybe it's clogged with
	ash.  You're going to have to find out where it's blocked and what
	the blockage is.  Maybe a really fat squirrel was looking for nuts
	in your chimney, got a good whiff of that CO and found a permanent
	resting place in your flue.  
	    Check up the chimney clean out with a mirror.  If nothing is
	there, you'll have to pull the pipes apart.

					Tim

  Well the stove is lit again.  I relit it last Friday night.  Everything
  went fine - it took on the 1st try.
  I think what happened is that the stove is very efficient and the surface 
  of the stove only gets to 250-300F so the pipe does not get that hot (you
  can hold your hands on it a while with no problems).  There is a fan that 
  cools the motor that runs the feed and blows air into the burn area.  The
  fan runs at the same speed as the feed (I had the feed on slow with a high
  volume of coal).  I bypassed the reostat and went into the wall outlet and 
  the fan is at max.  This will keep the pressure in the stove high I hope.  
  So for now it is running great.

                                Thanks for the info

                                       Tom

    
    We bought a CO detector about 4 months ago, we put it in our basement
    by our very old furnace.
    
    yesterday it started to sound the alarm.  The gass heat is not on and
    all the windows are open and all ceiling fans are on too.
    
    Everything seemed fine, but we shut off all gass (hot water, etc) and
    left it off, but it still kept sounding.
    
    We took down the detector and we cleaned off the dust, the directions
    said dust and humity can casue a false alrm.  
    
    It has been VERY humid here.
    
    We put the detor back up and it did not sound...until lastnight at
    2:00am!
    
    what could be wrong?
    
    

    
    Have you contacted the manufacturer? Usually there is an 800# on the
    instructions.

What brand is it?  Some (the First Alert/BRK models) are overly sensitive and
prone to false alarms.

				Steve

>    said dust and humity can casue a false alrm.  

    With the recent hot/humid summer weather conditions that we've
    been having, I'm not suprised that it would sound off in a Humid 
    basement.

    Try moving it upstairs and see if it improves.

    Charly

    
    It is a First Alert CO.  and yes, we moved it upstairs and it hasn't
    sounded an alarm yet.  I'm sure that's all it is, but I just get
    nervouse due to the old house and old furnance we have.
    
    Louisa

It's generally recommended that you place  aCO detector near the sleeping
area, not just outside the furnace room, etc.  As I mentioned, the First
Alert design is prone to false alarms.

				Steve

    
    Well, it also depends on what standard it follows. In Chicago, last
    year I believe, the temperature inversion which killed alot of people
    also set off most of the CO detectors in the city. This led UL to
    change the sensitivity standards to prevent this kind of false
    alarming. Maybe you have an older detector?

    re: first alert co detectors
    
    We bought one of these last winter, and after about 2 months it
    started to go off.  We called the fire department and they checked
    out the CO levels in the house - almost nothing detected at all
    (and we have 2 gas furnaces, gas heat, gas stove, gas dryer - so we
    were concerned).  As per the fire dept directions, and those by
    first alert, we took the sensor/battery pack outside for 24 hours
    to clear the sensor and put it back in the unit.  4 days later it
    went off again.  I called the fire dept (again) and (again) there
    was no problem.  I then called the first alert 800 number and was
    treated like a no-brain fool by the person on the phone, that said
    I obviously had a CO leak somewhere and that the fire dept's equipment
    must be faulty (i.e. our stuff is never wrong!).  OK, I said,  let me
    try doing the sensor-clearing exercise again (this time for 48 hours
    as per first alert's request).  Sure enough, 10 days afterwards the 
    thing went off (yet again).  I called first alert again and got a
    supervisor on the phone.  Apparently (after some prodding) there
    were some "not so good" batches of batteries/sensors, and they were
    prone to false alarms (due to low-voltage situations even though
    the expiration date was still good).  So, they (reluctantly) sent
    me another battery/sensor module - and 8 months later it still is
    fine with no false alarms.
    
    Sooooo - chances are it may be the sensor/battery pack - call the 800
    number (be prepared for a thorough thrashing that you must be sucking
    CO fumes to be calling) and INSIST on a new pack.  But, let me stress
    that it would be worth your while to have the fire dept come out
    and check the CO levels with their meters (this is usually a free
    service - plus you get a neat fire truck in your driveway to freak
    your neighbors) before you call - first alert asks for numbers.  This
    way you know for sure whether you have a problem or not - sometimes
    CO can build up even in the summer!
    
    good luck,
    andy
    

Last night, the First Alert CO detector in our house started beeping.  I was
startled at first - thought it was kind of unusual since we had several windows
open and lots of fresh air circulating!  Still, we had changed the water heater
in the house just a week ago...

So, I took out the manuals and discovered that the combination of lights on the
detector implied that the unit was malfunctioning!  We bought the unit a couple
of months ago and it has been fine till last night!  We called the hotline and
they have promised to send us another unit right away!

    
    .60  - There should be a CO detector on every floor of your home.  We
    are not people who have alot of $ so we bought one from the basement
    and we will buy another one for the upstaris.  We bought the First
    Alert before we watched a report on them on DateLine NBC, the one we
    should get is about $60.00
    
    We choose the basement 1st beause of the old furnance, and if there was
    a leak, it would be down in the basement.
    
    

    I have seen the "American Sensors" models for $40 and under at places
    like Home Depot.  These are the models recommended by Consumer Reports.
    
    				Steve

    I've got an American Sensors LED model on sale for $30 at 
    Wal_mart or Caldor.  No falses yet its 6 months old and I
    have gas heat and stove.  
    
    		dean