Conference 7.286::home_work

This note is an attempt to save other people the money I've wasted on my 
oven.  I will put the note in both the cooking and homeworks file.

In 1979, we redid our kitchen and purchased all new appliances.  One of the 
things that I bought was a Thermadore oven (CMT 18).  This is a single 
built-in electric oven that is also a microwave oven.  You can use it to 
microwave, bake, or microwave and bake at the same time.  When it works, I 
love it, --but that's the rub!

In 1979 I paid $1279 for that oven.  And, I bought it at Waltham Stove - 
those of you who shop there know that they have about the best prices in 
the area.  The thing would have probably cost $1500 - $1600 anywhere else.

Since 1979 I have replaced the following items on it:
	clock - replaced twice, you can't clean without it!
	timer and buttons - twice
	bake coil
	thermostat
	microwave motor - twice
	burner feet
	window screen (rusted out)

Some, but not most, of these items were replaced under warranty.  Since the 
warranty ran out, I have spent a total of $578.13 on repairs.

Luckily, the people I use to fix it seem pretty good - Hunter Appliance in 
Littleton.  However, they tell me that I don't have a lemon - all the 
Thermadore ovens are like this.  Thermadore owners are their best customers.  
I wish someone in Japan would start to make ovens!

I don't have room for a double oven or a microwave on the counter, so if I 
decide to spend yet more money and buy a different oven, I will have to 
give up some functionality.  I just keep hanging on hoping that someone 
else will start to make this kind of oven.

Anyway, if anyone out there is remodeling, DON'T BUY THERMADORE!

Sally

    
    Amana makes a combination conventional (radiant?) and microwave
    stove.  It works like a champ and has held out through two
    holiday seasons without problems (combination baked and
    microwave turkey is *wonderful*, but this is the wrong
    notesfile for such a discussion).  
    
    I'm sure they have a combination oven as well.

    Why don't you get a conventional range and suspend a microwave over
    it, such as a G.E. or Litton spacesaver types? This would give you
    both microwave/conventional cooking within the same space and if
    one unit fails, you don't have to through the whole unit out.
    

    re -.1
    	I can think of two reasons why not to do so -
    
    		1) the aforementioned space constraints may be operative.
    		2) those suspended microwave ovens tend to be too small
    		   for any serious use (turkey, roast, large pie/cake).
    
    Dwight

    529.3 was right.  
    
    Lots of people make a convection/microwave oven, but remember this
    would be my ONLY oven and all are too small for a turkey.  I don't
    want to put a microwave over my range because I want to mirowave
    and bake at the same time - not keep moving the food.  (I can bake
    a large roasting chicken at 375 and on microwave and the whole thing
    is done and brown and crispy in about 30 minutes!)
    
    I called a large appliance dealer the other day, no one but Thermadore
    makes this combination as a wall oven.  The Cloric "me" range is
    a floor model that does it, but they don't make a wall oven.  (BTW,
    friends have the "me" range and love it.)
    
    Sally
    

    Re: .*
    
    Thermador has gone *way* down hill in the last couple of years.
    My folks recently bought a drop-in range and could not believe how
    thin the materials were and how poor the craftsmanship was.  We
    looked at it as well and came to the same conclusion.
    
    Caloric is another brand that has gone downhill recently.  My folks
    bought that as their built-in oven and had to send parts back multiple
    times just to get ones in which the enamel had not chipped off.
    
    Amana has come out with a cheap line that looks like it will fall
    apart just by looking at it.  I hope they continue to make a higher
    quality line (including the convection one).  
    
    We are currently looking into Jenn-aire, and we're hoping that that
    brand does not go down hill before we have a chance to get one for
    our addition!
    
    Alex

there is an excellent discussion of which uWave ovens to buy/avoid in 
the (closely related and getting closer every day) consumer notes 
file.  Watch for it as soon as it gets to its new home.
(PARITY::CONSUMER)

re: -.1

CONSUMER has already relocated to ZEPPO::

/john

    Maytag has just come out with a combination traditional oven/
    microwave unit.  If it is anything like their other products, it
    should be great.  My second-hand Maytag washer lived through 22
    years with only one major repair.  My dryer, purchased in 1973,
    it still going strong (about 14 loads/week) with only a belt replacement. 

What do you mean by "no chemicals?"  Water is a chemical.  If you're trying
to avoid lye-based oven-cleaners, there's a non-caustic oven cleaner put
out by Easy-off that's quite effective.  My mother used to use straight
ammonia, but she never lets her oven get really dirty.  Of course the
best solution is to wipe up spills as soon as you can.

    Baking soda is supposed to be good for cleaning ovens, at least that's
    what it says on the box 8^)
    
    Susan

Ditto on the non-caustic Easy-Off.  I used it back when Arm&Hammer
marketed it (they sold the rights to it to Easy-Off).  No noxious
smell, worked quite well, so long as you follow the directions.

  Gary

    I'm looking to add a second oven as part of a kitchen upgrade, but am
    having trouble finding what I want...
    
    I want to add a set of base cabinets along a wall, and an additional
    oven -- but not an additional cooktop.  Further, I want to put the over
    on/near the floor, such that I can put a countertop above it.  I
    thought this would be easy, but I haven't found anything except very
    expensive "gourmet" ovens that can do this.
    
    Further, this will be against an interior wall, so anything requiring
    venting is difficult as well...
    
    Any suggestions, or am I out of luck?

I did this - just used a standard wall oven.  Works fine.  Venting is out
the front of ovens anyway, so it's not an issue.  I used a Whirlpool oven.
Even on the self-clean cycle, it doesn't cause a problem for the counter.

I'll warn you that most wall ovens are designed to be used at eye level,
or thereabouts, and you may find yourself bending quite a bit to see/adjust
controls.  Also, unlike in a range, there is no storage drawer below to 
boost the height of the oven, so the door will open almost to the floor.

Also, check the depth of your under-counter space carefully.  Though wall
ovens are designed for standard 24" mounting depth, I found that I actually
had 23.5" of usable space, so the oven sticks out about half an inch.  Not
really a problem, but it bugs me.

				Steve

We did it too. It has worked out great for us.

I'm pretty sure we have a Magic Chef. I can check the model # when
I get home if you would like. I do remember that our primary consideration
for choosing this one was the interior size. Many wall ovens have a relatively
small oven space compared to "standard" oven/range units.

						Mark

Re: .2

You got that right, about the small capacity of wall ovens.  We picked the
Whirlpool as it was the largest we could find.  We've now had the
under-counter oven three years and it's been no problem at all.

				Steve

    
      Yep, a standard wall over is what you want. I plan on doing the same
    thing since I want the cooktop in one place and the over in another.
    I've also noticed that the size of wall ovens varies *enormously*. A
    standard oven comes in a 30" wide stove. You can get wall ovens MUCH
    smaller than that. So check carefully that you get one of a size that
    will suit you. 
    				Kenny

    
    Hmm...  Guess I'll have to do more looking.  The wall ovens I looked at
    had large (18" +) lower clearance requirements...

    Since you're in the Nashua area, check out P.E. Fletcher; ask for
    Pete Hostage or Dave Kantor (Dave's the owner).  We got all the
    appliances for our remodelled kitchen from them and were very happy
    with the whole process (and the prices).
    
    				Steve

    Just did this and installed a JENN-AIR wall oven unit.  We used the
    JENN-AIR because it was a standard 30" oven and not your usual
    small sized wall oven.
    
    We love it.  Priced it at Percy's but ended up getting it at our
    local appliance store as we were given a good price because we were
    getting all new appliances.
    
    Judie
    
    

    I concur with .7.  I wanted gas range electric oven.  Jennaire display
    at Percy's was exactly that. Each piece seperate.  The oven was beneath
    the counter drop in gas range.

Dacor also makes such a combination.  The problem with both the Dacor and
Jenn-Aire ovens, though, is that they're tiny.

We ended up with a Sterling (also sold as GE Monogram) 5-burner gas cooktop
and the Whirlpool electric oven under the counter.  We initially had a 
Thermador cooktop but it never worked right and we returned it.

				Steve

    I am designing my kitchen now and am curoius about some of the
    references to cooktops and ovens.  We are currently looking at wall
    ovens and I agree the capacity is small on most models.
    
    	The question I have though is around cooktops.  We are currently
    looking at a few gas cooktops and am wondering about ventilation.  Do
    you really have to have either an overhead exhaust or a down draft system? 
    Is that generally local building code stuff?
    
    Any viewpoint would help.
     george

You have to have some sort of exhaust mechanism.  For most "household"
cooktops, a vent hood need not be externally exhausted, and ours is not.
I think the downdraft systems often require external venting (but not always).
Some high-output cooktops require an externally vented hood.

			Steve

    re: .11
    
    You said that you have to have ventilation. Is that as in "it is
    required by code..." or as in "you really should have one because..."?
    I'm asking because our gas stove has neither range hood nor downdraft
    ventilation. If it's out of code for Mass., then I'd like to know.
    When we bought the house, the home inspector didn't say anything about
    it, and he was knowledgeable about code.
    
    Just curious.

    Exactly what I am driving at.  I grew up in a home that hade a gas
    Range (ovens and burners) and there was no venting what so ever.
    
    george

Required by the manufacturer of the cooktop, at least.  All that I looked at
required some sort of ventilation.  I don't know about building code; that
was never an issue for us, since we did have a hood.

				Steve

    >> Required by the manufacturer of the cooktop,
    
    		Huh????? I never heard of such a thing. A range hood is too
    far away to have any effect on the range itself. And the fact that you
    can have one that is not vented outside precludes any possible
    mitigation of CO.
    
      I've never heard it was code that you had to have a range hood; if it
    is I'd like to know about it!
    
      To answer the original question: As far as I know you don't *need* a
    range hood. Your range certainly will work fine without it. It *is* a
    nice idea to have one and vented to the outside is the only way to go.
    
    				Kenny

Kenny,

	I beleive it's a building code but I'm not positive. It's certainly not
an electrical or plumbing code at least here in N.H. I haven't done a house in
15 years where I didn't install one in some fashion or another even in the low
budget capes, ranches done on speculation....and those places don't get anything
installed that they don't absolutely have to. 

Give the Nashua or Merrimack building Dept a call and ask them. They can tell
whether it's a local adaptation or if it's in the Uniform Building codes or BOCA
or whatever. 

    Thanks for the speedy responses.  I am locating my cooktop in an island
    and was just curious about absolutely having to put one in.  I am
    currently planning for a down draft system an I just question their
    value.  What value do they add especially these days with sealed
    pilotless burners and all.  I mean I do not belive these devices will
    suck up stuff like the intial blast from something like fajitass.
    
    georeg 

Re: .15 

You may have never heard of such a thing, but I can assure you that a number
of products we looked at had just such a requirement stated in the
manufacturer's literature.

				Steve

    
     I also plan on placing a cooktop in a penninsula and I don't (didn't?)
    plan to have anything over it that could accept a hood of any sort. I
    like the openness of the kitchen area now and don't normally cook the
    sorts of foods where a vent hood would be needed. Thanks for all the
    replies, I'll have to look into this further.
    
    				Kenny

The Jenn-aire style cooktops with built in exhaust meet the requirements.
Sorry if I mis-lead you to think it had to be a hood.

paul

Right - those with built-in downdraft exhausts don't need a hood.  But many
of the downdraft units require external venting.

				Steve