Conference 7.286::home_work

    I posted this in ASKENET and was referred here, any ideas?
    
    Thanks :== fn(response)
    
    Willie
    
    
    
    
                    <<< MEIS::PUB$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ASKENET.NOTE;2 >>>
                            -< Ask The Easynet V4 >-
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Note 1207.0           Old-style fire extinguisher cleanup?             3 replies
SNDCSL::SMITH "IEEE-696"                             22 lines  12-DEC-1988 07:20
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    I've recently come across a "Badger Pony" 1 1/4 gallon bicarbonate/acid
    fire extinguisher that's all copper and brass, but it's kinda grungy
    and I'd like to clean it up and coat it with something to preserve
    the shine.  Actually, there are 3 things I'd like to do (in order):
    
    1)	Safely discharge it.  The directions mention sulfuric acid,
    so maybe I should tip it over and let it spray, but if it's possible
    to safely disassemble it I'm sure the cleanup would be much easier.
    
    2)	Clean it up and polish all the metal parts.  I could spend a
    couple of days with Brasso, but is there anything better (that Tarn-X
    stuff I've seen advertised?) that would do a better job?
    
    3)	Seal it so it doesn't have to be polished again.  Something
    like a coat of clear varnish or whatever they use to seal silver.
    Maybe this isn't a great idea, if not, what other options do I have.
    
    If there's a more appropriate notes file, please point me at it!
    
    Many thanks in advance!
    
    Willie

 �  1)	Safely discharge it.  The directions mention sulfuric acid,
 �  so maybe I should tip it over and let it spray, but if it's possible
 �  to safely disassemble it I'm sure the cleanup would be much easier.
    
    These fire extinguishers are now illegal due to the fact that they had
    a very nasty tendency to explode if the discharge tube was somehow
    blocked when they were flipped over.  Tipping it over combined the soda
    and acid, causing a chemical reaction which produced a great volume
    of gas.  This increasing pressure trapped in a confined space led to
    many extinguishers blowing up.
    
    If you do decide to discharge it, be careful the discharge tube is
    not blocked.  Once the chemical reaction starts, there's no way to
    stop it.
    
    Jim

>                                              ...but if it's possible
>    to safely disassemble it I'm sure the cleanup would be much easier.

If it's the classic design for these things, you just unscrew the 
"crown" at the top, and lift out the glass acid carrier.  No muss, no 
fuss -- no exploding fire extinguisher.
    
>    2)	Clean it up and polish all the metal parts.  I could spend a
>    couple of days with Brasso, but is there anything better (that Tarn-X
>    stuff I've seen advertised?) that would do a better job?

I've used Tarn-X and it works fine.  The metal won't get as bright as 
a good military Brasso shine, but neither do you get the fine network of 
scratches.
    
						>>>==>PStJTT

    Thanks guys, I think I'll try disassembling it and cleaning it with
    Tarn-X.  A couple more questions:
    
    1)	Where do you get Tarn-X?  I looked in the grocery store in the
    polish department but didn't see anything.  I remember seeing it
    on TV a while back, but I don't watch much TV lately.....
    
    2)	I should also replace the hose, the one that's on there is pretty
    stiff, and cracks when I try to move it.  It appears to be clamped
    onto two fittings (one threaded where it connects to the tank and
    the nozzle), can one get new replacements or should I just never
    try to move it?
    
    Thanks again!
    
    Willie
    

To find tarn-x you need to go to the really cheap junky stores... 
Woolworth's is a dependable carrier.  K-Mart might have it.  (I'm sure 
the usual pointer to Spag's will appear in due course.)

I don't know the diameter you need, but generally the hose is nothing 
special.  If you take the measurement of the inside diameter you need, 
you can probably find a piece of neoprene fuel line at an automotive 
supply house to fit.  I suppose it depends on how "authentic" you want 
it to be.  (If it will make you feel better, fuel line is what we used to 
use at the boat yard I used to work in.)

					>>>==>PStJTT

    From an earlier reply, there is the possibility of danger. Why not
    just take it to a local fire station and have them do-or tell you
    to do- the appropricate stuff.

    Thanks for the pointer, I'll check Woolworths.  I've never been
    to Spags, but I keep hearing good things about it, problem is I'd
    probably come out broke!  :+)
    
    The problem isn't finding the hose, it's replacing it.  The hose
    that's there is crimped onto the threaded fitting and the nozzle,
    and I have no idea how to replace it without destroying the fittings.
    
    Willie

    Yes, Spags DOES have it, actually they have several brands of the
    same stuff up by the RT.9 'main front' entrance. Can't remember
    the brand names, but several are there for $.79 to $1.50 or so...

    I know of a product called "METAL CLEANER", it's a cream cleaner
    that works very well not only to remove tarnish but to help retard
    future tarnish.  It's not available on the shelf, but if your
    interested contact me and I will help you get it.
    
    Danielle 

You don't say what you're going to do with the fire extinguisher when
you're done restoring it.

I assume you're _not_ going to restore its functional parts, neither with a
new acid charge nor with some modern mechanism.  So, when you display the
thing, please do so in such a way that no one will reach for it in a fire! 
I'm sure it'll be a lovely antique to display and admire, but if your
restoration is so good that somebody is fooled, the results could be tragic.

	DCL, who likes antiques but also likes to know 
	where the nearest _working_ fire extinguisher is

    You are right, I plan on keeping it as a decorative object only,
    the Halon fire extinguishers are in plain sight in the kitchen and
    the computer room, and anyone spraying foam, water, or dry chemical
    around my hardware gets to clean it up!  :+)
    
    Thanks for the tip, now if I could just decide between a large sign
    in flourescent paint above it saying "NOT A FIRE EXTINGUISHER!"
    and a sign on the bottom of it saying "Try again, sucker!" for people
    who try to tip it over.   :+)
    
    Willie

    There are places around (check the yellow pages) that sell and recharge
    extinguishers.  These places sees a likely source for contact with
    antiques fire apparatus collector's clubs which might have great
    ideas about your hose, and might have other tips for you, too. 
    Our 1985 edition of the Directory of Associations lists at least
    five national organizations related to fire hobbies, and seeveral
    others for the industry today.  Who knows, you might find out that
    your antique is valuable!
    
    Have fun!
    
    Sherry

    For a pointer about more antique information, check out the notes
    file MOMAX1::ANTIQUE_COLLECTIBLE
    
    Type KP7 to add to your notebook

    you might try posing those questions to the local fire station.
    Betcha you'd get quick and reliable answers
    My PREDICTION is that the door to door salesrep is giving you a bunch
    of nonsense
    
    
    				herb

    We have one of those generic dept. store model ABC extinguishers and
    when the Fire Dept. came around last year to do inspections the Chief
    informed me that as long as the extinguisher still indicated a full
    charge on the gauge, it was good. We've had our extinguisher since
    1984 and it's still good.
    
    Mike

    If it were not for the CFC danger, halon would, indeed, be an
    almost perfect fire retardant (check your nearest computer room).
    To the best of my knowledge, you can find suitable home-use fire
    extinguishers in the nearest hardware store (CO2) for about $15 -
    $40 depending on size.
    
    I bought a five-pound halon fire extinuguisher for my Piper
    Cherokee a while back, before the CFC awareness, and it cost
    nowhere near $100; about $35, as I recall, and most of that
    price was probably to support FAA certification.
    
    Regarding smoke alarms, the basic battery powered smoke detector
    does a great job.  Our home has a wired fire alarm system but we
    also have the battery powered detectors; the alarm system isn't
    much good when the cause of the fire is electrical.
    
    A type A will work on paper, on paper (heh, heh).  The danger is
    that the CO2 blast will scatter loose burning papers, aggravating
    the problem, but it has nothing to do with the fire retarding
    properties of CO2 applied to a paper fire.
    
    Sounds like a hard sell of products that are functionally OK,
    but grossly overpriced - like some brands of replacement windows.
    I'd ask the local fire department for advice, and then do my
    buying at the nearest hardware or discount store, IMHO.
    
    PBM
    

    I am *not* an expert on fire extinguishers, but I hope you didn't
    give them any money yet! Remember the part about me not being an expert
    when you read the rest of this...
    
    	I bought a halon extinguisher for use around my electronics. Halon
    itself is not toxic but when it comes into contact with fire it breaks
    down to components that both deprive the fire of oxygen *AND* are very
    toxic. If you ever have to use a halon extinguisher, you would be well
    advised to get out of the area ASAP afterward.
    	Halon also works best when ventilation is at a minimum to
    avoid the dilution of the gas. (This, of course, increases the toxic
    hazard.) 
    
    	BTW I don't remember the size of my Halon extinguisher, I *think*
    it holds five pounds. The total weight of the filled extinguisher is
    around 10 pounds. I bought it at Lechmere's for about $30. (NOT $100!)
    
    	Fires come in three types: Dry materials - wood, paper, etc...;
    Flamible liquids - gasoline, etc...; Electrical. If memory serves me
    correctly these are labeled types A,B,and C respectively.
    	You never want to throw water, or any other conductive product on
    an electrical fire as you could electrocute yourself in the process and
    will probably only make the electrical fire worse. CO2, Halon, or
    *some* dry extinguishers are best here.
    	You don't want to throw liquids on burning liquids. For example:
    water on to a gasoline fire. This can seriously spread the fire as
    whatever liquid is burning may float upon the fire retardant liquid and
    be scattered further. A liquid like water may vaporize and splatter
    the burning liquid everywhere. (Ever drop water into very hot oil?)
    Firemen generally use foam for large burning liquid fires.
    	Wood, paper, etc... fires can be extinguished most easily. CO2,
    Halon, dry extinguishers, water should all work. The pitch you got
    couldn't have been right as concerns using CO2 on a wood or paper fire.
    (Of course one would have to be careful that the blast from the CO2
    extinguisher didn't blow burning paper everywhere, but this is
    unlikely.)
    	The dry chemicals used in dry extinguishers are often extremely
    fine powder that is often very abrasive. Naturally you wouldn't want to
    inhale any of it. I'd imagine that if you got enough in your eyes it
    could cause damage. You may find it very difficult to clean up this dry
    material due to its very fine and heavy nature. Depending on your
    vacuums filtering ability, you may just blow it all around when trying
    to pick it up.
    
    	May I suggest that you check out your local department store. I
    think you'll find that every extinguisher will show from one to three
    triangles on the side describing what type of fire it is rated to be
    used on. Try calling your local fire department for a really
    authoritative answers. You may find that there are many other safety
    tips that you should follow *in addition* to fire extinguishers that
    can minimize fire hazards in your home. I am highly suspicious of the
    sales pitch that you got. Learn what to do to prevent a fire, what to
    do to if (God forbid) you have a fire. Then take a trip to your local
    department store and stock up on a few extinguishers and smoke alarms.
    
    
    					good topic!
    					Mark
    

A friend of mine is the Fire Chief at Rutgers University and, at one time, Chief of
his town's volunteers.  He directed me to purchase a A-B-C Dry Chemical extinguisher
for several reasons, most of which have been covered already.  He also told
me to get at least a 5lb unit, anything less and you run the risk of, in a panic,
misdirecting the chemicals and running out before actually affecting the fire.


Chris

        I had one of the K-mart special 20# 2A40BC (there is never a
        number associated with the C rating). It lasted for the 8 years or
        so I was in my condo, but eventually lost pressure. These are
        cheaply built units with plastic heads/nozzles, and aren't worth
        recharging.
        
        When I built our new house, we went to a fire protection store.
        They sell to your offices, fire depts, etc. and have professional
        quality stuff. They strongly recommended at least one 20# unit for
        a house, as the smaller units run out of powder too fast. Anything
        much bigger approaches the limits of what someone can easilly
        carry in an emergency. I got one with a metal head, and paid about
        the same $30 that K-mart wanted for the junk. 
        
        You should have a second unit upstairs and/or downstairs in a
        multi level dwelling. The best place to locate one is near an
        emergency exit. I have my 20# unit by the back door between the
        kitchen and garage (2 primary fire zones, basement is probably the
        other) In case of a fire, first get everyone out of the house, and
        call for help. Then make the decision to wait for help or grab the
        equipment and head back in to control the fire.
        
        I have a 5# halon unit upstairs, and a 10# dry chemical unit in my
        car as well. For wood & grass fires, the best tool is your garden
        hose. I keep one handy even in the winter, just for emergencies.
        
        Given the choice, you definitely don't want to dump the dry
        chemical into anything dust or abrasion sensitive. My father once
        has a small fire under the hood of his car while working on
        something. The dry chemical quickly put everything out, byt he had
        to do a total carb overhaul, and much other cleanup before the car
        could be returned to service. Halon would have required zero
        cleanup. I haven't heard of a good ozone friendly replacement for
        halon fire extinguishers yet. Until there is, I intend to keep one
        around, ozone or not.
        
        As to recharging, a dry chemical unit that is partially discharged
        can still be used if a fire flares up a few minutes later. It must
        be completly discharged to recharge. I think the powder
        contaminates the seals, resulting in rapid pressure leaks if not
        serviced more or less immediately. I remember watching my father
        recharge our unit after the incident above. The kit included the
        powder, washers and whatever, and a CO2 cartridge to pressurize
        everything when loaded. 
        
        Halon units that have been slightly discharged can be kept for
        another use in the future, although their capacity will be
        diminished by whatever was used the first time. This might be
        acceptable for kitchen grease fires.

    As a ex-volunteer firefighter I have some knowledge about fire
    fighting.  Most everything that has been posted so far is true or close
    enough.  The door-to-door salesmen are selling products by building up
    your fear factor.  
    
    Yes, you need fire extingishers.  Halon will work best in an enclosed
    space with little or no air exchange.  It is a chemical which bonds
    with the 02 in the room thereby starving the fire of 02.  In a kitchen
    fire you probably have the exhaust fan on over the burning grease so it
    would be ineffective.  I vote dry chemical.  Halon is usually more
    expensive for the same amount of coverage as dry chemical.
    
    When buying an extingisher, get one that is rated A-B-C.  Look on the
    extingisher for a triangle (representing A), a square (representing B),
    and a circle (representing C).  Make sure that none of the symbols have
    a red circle with a diagonal red bar on them. 
    
    There is also a D rating which is for burning metals like magnesuim.  If
    you have metal shavings lying around heat sources, then you need more than
    home protection.  You can put out a magnesuim fire with major copious 
    amounts of water.  You are actually trying to cool the metal to a point 
    that is below its ignition point.
    
    There is a conference for firefighting, NOTED::FIRE_RESCUE_EMS which
    could answer any questions you might have.  Hit keypad 7 to add it to
    your notebook.
                      

    I think the only thing to recommend a Halon unit in a home is the
    fact that it makes no mess to clean up afterwards.  The dry chemical
    (so I hear) is very difficult to clean up.  Cleaning up a mess of
    dry powder is a lot better than cleaning up a burned-out car or house 
    though.  I have a small (palm-sized) Halon extinguisher by the
    kitchen stove in case there's a grease fire.  That seems like an
    ideal application to me.   It's the kind of fire Halon is good at
    putting out, it's likely to be relatively small (one hopes), and
    it's in an area where cleanup of dry chemical could be a real headache
    (around food).
    
    The best thing for type A fires is water.  Type A fires would include
    things like upholstery fires (e.g. your Uncle Louie got drunk and set the
    sofa on fire). Dry chemical won't penetrate the cushion, although they
    will put out the fire on the surface, if any.  Presumably, one can get
    water around a house.  A garden hose will beat ANY extinguisher for a
    type A fire, no competition at all.
    
    I've got a dry chemical extinguisher in the basement in case I get a
    fire in my shop.

    VERY IMPORTANT to note!: most people do not die as a direst result of
    fire but as a result of smoke inhalation. That is the main reason that
    you are so well advised to get out of a burning building ASAP and leave
    the firefighting to professionals. Smoke can overcome very quickly.
    Know how to exit a smoky building (crawling on hands and knees usually
    will keep you in a safe layer of air.) You should only attempt to fight
    a fire if it is very localized (ie: pan on fire) and you are confident
    that you can put it out quickly, AND that you have a good excape route
    in case you have misjudged.
    
    	As regards Halon in computer rooms, when we installed one at the
    company I last worked at, they were required to explain the safety
    features to us. These included manual override buttons near each door.
    The idea was that if the Halon system were ready to go off the alarm
    lights would start to flash. You then had some small amount of time (30
    secs?) to hit and hold the override. If you knew that it was a false
    alarm you could hold the override until someone could reset the system,
    thus saving $$$ worth of Halon. If it wasn't a false alarm, you could
    hold it long enough to get everone out of the room.
    	I heard second hand that when these Halon systems discharge the
    area under the nozzles feels like it is hit by a shotgun blast. (I'd
    just as soon keep this experience "second hand" thank you :-)  )
    
    	BTW for kithen stove fires there are two excellent methods of fire
    quenching: One - put a lid on the pan, Two - douse it with baking soda.
    I'd try these first before I reached for anything that would ruin the
    food.
    	My grandmother used to make a mulled whiskey. To do this she had to
    heat whiskey in a large kettle. She always kept a damp towel handy to
    put out the flames. She always had to use the towel too, but that is
    another story...
    

>Doesn't Halon sufficate individuals as well as the fire?  Chemically it was
>supposed to disable the oxigen, not just displace it (like CO2).

As I understand it, halon disables the free radical oxygen formed in a flame,
not the ordinary molecular oxygen we breathe.  Something that disabled ordinary
oxygen would be much too dangerous to discharge into a room which may have
people in it, in a building that may have people in it.

In a flame, the heat breaks up oxygen molecules into 2 oxygen atoms.  These
free oxygen atoms are _very_ reactive, they'll react with all kinds of stuff.
Usually they react with whatever's burning, releasing more energy which breaks
up more O2 which continues the reaction.  Halon neutralizes the free O atoms
as they're formed, breaking the cycle.

-Mike

Re: .0 & .3

Let me get this straight -- if your house or airplane (respectively)
start to burn, you guys are going to hesitate about using the fire
extinguisher because it might effect the ozone?  Or you'd buy a less
effective fire extinguisher if you thought it was more environmentally
sound?  My hat goes off to you.  I would never follow your example, but
I respect your commitment.

Personally, I happily recycle my Coke cans and newspapers, but when a
fire breaks out I want the best possible thing to stop it. Period.  I
don't care if it's made by mixing chlordane with reactor coolant, if
it's better at putting out fires, I'll use it.  I'm not making a
judgement on how effective Halon might be, but the last criterion I'd
use to judge it is if it contains CFC's or not.

>>>==>PStJTT

    Re: .12
    
    Nicely said! My thoughts too.
    
    Marc H.

re .12:

As I read it, the question isn't "do I use something that will put out the
fire or do I use something that won't?"  Notes here seem to say that halon
and dry powder are equally effective.  The case for halon seems to lie
in the realm of how hard it is to clean up after the fire.  In a kitchen
fire, dry powder sounds like it would be a definate annoyance to clean up.
In a computer room, dry powder would be a disaster of its own, as it would
shut down the whole computer system until a great deal of costly, finicky
cleanup is completed.  

Therefore, given the low likelyhood of having a fire in my kitchen, and
given the ozone layer problems that halon causes, I'll stick with dry
powder.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS:  During WWII, guys building airplanes took the same attitude of .12,
and used the most effective thing then known for stopping fires in 
magnesium shavings.  It was asbestos, and a lot of those guys have since
died of lung cancer.  Sometimes it really does pay (in very personal terms)
to pay attention to the long-range danger of the materials we use.

Where is there a *higher* likelihood of having a fire than in your kitchen?  
There are two places in your house with high heat:  the furnace/water-heater
zone and the kitchen.  Only one of these has open heat used to heat hot 
flammable grease.  Heating a qurater-cup of oil for popcorn and letting your 
attention wander for just a few seconds can give you a pillar of flame just
about four feet high, judging from how high the burn marks went on my cabinet
door last winter.  

Well, if the  former & current firefighters who replied to this note
said that dry chemical powder wouldn't work for a grease fire, then
I'd want halon.  If they said that halon extinguishes a fire noticably
more effectively than halon, I'd want it.  But since both work, and the 
main difference is in the cost/annoyance of the cleanup, I'm perfectly 
willing to deal with an annoying cleanup to help protect the ozone layer, 
provided that it doesn't happen too often.

And while I imagine that I am more likely to encounter a fire in my
kitchen than anywhere else in my house, that doesn't make it likely.
I heard once that most people are involved in a fire only once in
their life.  The point of the statistic was that it isn't surprizing
that many people act irrationally in fires, as hardly anyone not
profesionally involved with fires has any real experience when they
encounter one.  But it works both ways -- I've never yet been near
a real, out-of-control fire.  I wonder how many readers of this notes 
file have been involved in more than one fire, other than professionally.

One last point.  If halon is toxic (as one note suggested), that's a good 
reason to *not* use it in my house.  Braving the dangers of halon would
be better than letting the house burn down, but I have another choice.

Well, off to buy another fire extinguisher...

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    re: .16
    
    I didn't get the idea that halon was toxic.  It just sucks up all the
    oxygen so that you don't get any - or enough.  I think that's different
    from being toxic.
    
    If you got caught in a halon dump in a computer room and managed to
    escape to get oxygen then you'd be ok.  If it were toxic, then you'd
    have some rather severe after affects.
    
    You could always come over to my department and talk to some of the
    management types.  It seems they've been caught in halon dumps.  It
    starves the brain of oxygen.  :>)

Re .12

>> Let me get this straight -- if your house or airplane (respectively)
>> start to burn, you guys are going to hesitate about using the fire
>> extinguisher because it might effect the ozone?  Or you'd buy a less
>> effective fire extinguisher if you thought it was more environmentally
>> sound?  My hat goes off to you.  I would never follow your example, but
>> I respect your commitment.

I think you (and several others) may have missed the point.  It is not the one
in a million halon extinguisher that is actually used to put out a fire.  It is
the 999,999 others that are not used that eventually leak, are accidentally 
dischared, are discharged as a prank ... Those are the ones that affect the
atmosphere more than the ones used for actually putting out fires.

Stan

    re: toxicity in simple terms:
    
    
    		Halon is NOT toxic.
    
    
    		Halon + fire IS toxic.

    Just about anything + fire is toxic these days.  There will probably be
    more chlorine evolved in a fire (and in a more reactive form) than that
    found in Halon.

re .17 (halon O2 stealer):  See .11.

-Mike

    I don't believe I did that.  I had read that already some time back.  I
    guess I read it too quickly.
    
    thanks for pointing me back to it.

    
    	Just a couple of things.  First you need 4 things for a fire 
    1) heat, 2) oxygen, 3) fuel, 4) cheamical reaction.  You can stop any
    fire (except metal fires) by taking any one of the 4 properties away.
    Halon is excellent for liquid and electrical fires.  It will work on
    regular fires (class A) but not as well as water.  Halon is made to
    stop the chemical reaction, it will do a little for the heat aspect but
    thats not were it gets it's major punch.  Now as far as oxygen goes
    Halon doesn't absorb the oxygen out of the air, but it does contain
    CFC's.  Dry cheamical uses the same principle as Halon but what a
    mess!!  I've used them and when it's all over and done it looks like
    so much melted plastic on your stove.
    
    	Now as far as toxic consideration goes,  Halon is no worse than the
    fire thats burning.  Almost all fires create carbon monoxide and most
    create a number of other air bourn toxic contaminants that are best
    avoided.  I would recomend Halon for a kitchen or electronics shop and
    a water extinguisher for the rest of the house ie. living room, bed
    room. This extra extinguisher is important especially if you have a
    smoker in the house.
    
    	Most of these tips are from the Mass Firefighters Academy.  If you
    have any questions they are very helpfull and will take time to answer
    almost anything on fire prevention.  I don't have thier phone number
    off hand but they are located in Sudbury Ma. and I'm sure you could get
    the number from directory assistance.
    
    
    						David
    
       P.S.
       I've been involved in far more
    than one fire in my liftime and I'm only
    in my 20's.

Since the subject of toxicity came up here and in CONSUMER where .0
posted the note before (the moved it here when the fire died down, I
guess :-)) I asked the nice people at Marlboro Fire Extinguisher
Company to send me the OSHA material safety data sheet on it.  Here's what it says:

"Section 4 -- Fire and Expolsion Hazard Data

Flash point: Does not flash.

Autoignition temp: none.

Flamable Limits (STP): None.

Extinushing media: N/A; product is an extinguishing agent.  Use water
to cool fire-exposed cylinders or other containers.

Special Fire Fighting Protective Equipment: Self-contained breathing
apparatus with full facepiece and protective clothing when re-entering
unventilated fire areas where product has been used.

Unusual fir and explosion hazards: When [HALON] is discharged into a
fire, it decomposes above 900 degrees F, releasing bromide ions, the
extinguishing agent. However, halogen compounds, such as halogen acids,
are also formed.  These byproducts, although harmful if inhaled, are
easily detected; only a few parts per million create an unpleasnat,
acrid odor, which serves as a warning to the user.  After the
extinguisher is deischarged, the area should be vacated until
ventilation clears the atmosphere.

Section 5 -- Reactivity Data

Stability: Stable under normal conditions.  Decomposes under fire
conditions (above 900 degrees F).

Incompatibility (materials to avoid): Active metals sech as powdered
aluminum and magnesium, and fires of metal hydrides.

Hazardous decomposition products: Thermal decomposition: [HALON] begins
decomposing at temperatures about 900 degrees F to give free halogens,
halogen acids, and small amounts of carbonyl halides.  Tests simulating
fir conditions could not detect phsgene in amounts as low as 0.04 ppm.

Hazardous polymerization: will not occur."

Re: asbestos used to put out metal fires --

So are you saying there was something better to put out the fires, or
are you saying that it's better to die in a metal fire at 20 than risk cancer at 60?
Personally, I'd pick the 40 years of life.

>>>==>PStJTT

re .25: 

Stop being deliberately obtuse.  One alternative was using less asbestos
(they apparently flung it around by the armful).  I'm sure there were other
alternatives as well.  It wasn't a question of putting out the fire
or not putting out the fire, it was a question of *how* the fire was put
out.  The same applies to Halon vs. dry chemical.  If you choose halon 
because you don't like cleaning up dry chemical, that's a rational reason.
But both do the job.  That's the real point -- it isn't a choice between
dying in a fire vs. damaging the ozone layer, it's a choice between a messy
but safe cleanup vs. damaging the ozone layer.  

	Larry

re Note 4305.24 by ULTNIX::taber:

> Since the subject of toxicity came up here and in CONSUMER where .0
> posted the note before (the moved it here when the fire died down, I
> guess :-)) 

        What extinguishing material have you been sniffing? :-}

        I am the author of .0, and I assure you that I hadn't posted
        it anywhere before (since the sales call in question just
        occurred the day before).

        Bob

>        What extinguishing material have you been sniffing? :-}
>
>       I am the author of .0, and I assure you that I hadn't posted
>       it anywhere before (since the sales call in question just
>       occurred the day before).
>
>        Bob


      I posted the note in the consumer note conference, not Bob.
 It appears that I was approched by the same company as Bob.
 I chose to post it in consumers and later noticed it in this conference.

           Dan Sears

Re: .27, 28

Sorry for the incorrect attribution.

In Re: the toxicity issue...  I got a mail message asking what had been
cleared up by the bit of information I had posted.  Here's the wrap as I see it:

- Halon itself is not toxic
- Halon does not take up the free oxygen in a room.
- Halon does take up oxygen in the area of combustion
- Halon does release toxic fumes as a byproduct of combustion. (Though
my reading of the warning is that it's not considered a major hazard
i.e, the warning says that you'll be able to smell the fumes and should
leave the area.  It doesn't say you'll smell the fumes and fall down dead.)

A subpart of the wrap should also be that Halon causes irreconcilable
differences in the attitude of people who evaluate it from different
perspectives.  Use caution when discussing.

>>>==>PStJTT

From:	MLMAIL::MLMAIL::MRGATE::"NEMTS::ICS::A1::SUBSCRIBER.CNS"  8-DEC-1993 10:56:08.56
To:	@Distribution_List
CC:	
Subj:	PLEASE READ AND DELETE -- REPEAT OF EMPLOYEE DISCOUNT PROGRAM          1

From:	NAME: CNS East Site Delivery        
	FUNC: CNS - Eastern Sites             
	TEL: PKO/MSO/MLO/OGO                  <SUBSCRIBER.CNS AT A1 at ICS at PKO>
To:     See Below


 
                   A MESSAGE FROM THE MAYNARD AREA 
                 ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH AND SAFETY GROUP
	
		
		      Employee Discount Program
		      Thursday, 9 December 1993

The MAPM Environmental Health and Safety department has arranged 
to repeat the very successful Fire Extinguisher sale that was conducted at 
the Mill on October 15, 1993. 

  In order to ensure that our employees have access to the proper fire 
protection equipment in their homes, the EH&S department is hosting an 
employee discount sale provided by New England Fire Equipment 
Company on:
                  Thursady December 9, 1993.
                    11:00 am to 1:30 pm
                      MSO 2  Cafeteria
  
New England Fire Equipment is one of the largest and most 
respected suppliers of fire extinguishers, and safety equipment 
in the New England area.  They will be making available to 
Digital Employees, at a greatly reduced price, the following 
items:  
   
Multi-purpose (ABC) Fire Extinguishers 
(all metal, no plastic parts):
			             RETAIL    SALE PRICE
2-1/2 lb. ABC (Homeowner size).......$28.95      $16.95
                Rechargeable
5 lb. ABC extinguisher...............$49.95      $29.95
10 lb. ABC extinguisher..............$59.95      $39.95

Battery Smoke Detectors..............$19.95      $13.95

Emergency Escape Ladders: 
             2 Story Escape Ladder...$54.95      $44.95
             3 Story Escape Ladder...$64.95      $54.95

First Aid Kits: 25 Unit Kit..........$39.95      $24.95
                50 Unit Kit..........$74.95      $59.95

 	    ALL SALE PRICES REPRESENT A 15-20% DISCOUNT! 
			  FREE RAFFLE!
		        LOOK FOR POSTERS!!

New England Fire Company will have the stock on site the day of 
the sale.  They will accept cash, checks and major credit cards 
(sorry, no American Express accepted). These items make great gift 
ideas, and could save the life of a loved one!  Pick up an extinguisher 
for your home, boat or car, or replace an old unit.  

If it is not convenient for you to purchase any of these items at 
this time, you may order them through the mail and have the items 
shipped to your home address for a minimal shipping/handling 
charge.  Order forms will be available in the MLO5 cafeteria on 
the above date.  They will also be available at the EH&S office 
located in MLO4-1 pole A-1.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact the MAPM 
EH&S office at 223-4433.




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