Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    I am getting ready to start the wiring in my basement.  I figure I
    need about 20 plugs, four switches, antanae cable, some wire and boxes.
    
    What brand name outlets/switches should I look for/look out for.  Where
    do you think I can get the best package deal (in the Nashua area).
    
    					thanks,
    		
                                                .dave

I'd suggest Ralph Pill Electric Co. on Lake Street in Nashua. If you 
head into town from D.W. Highway northbound , Lake street's right across 
from the Simoneau Plaza and Mr Donut. Take a left and it's on the left 
(I don't remember exactly how far).

I found that his prices are about as low as the bargain basement 
(grossmans, etc.) places and he's got *EVERYTHING*. If he doesn't, 
he can get it in a couple of working days.

'Bout the only time you can do a little better is when a place like 
sears, grossmans, etc has a sale on wire and boxes...

	Chris

If you have a complete list of what you need it might be worth it
    for you to go to SPAGS.  They have *EVERYTHING* too.  Their
    prices for electrical things are good.  For example, 250' of
    14-2 is about $15.  (That's the regular price, it sometimes goes
    on sale for less).  I doubt if any electrical distributor or
    can touch that price.  Outlets are 60 cents.
    
    The brand at SPAGS is LEVITT.
    

    agree with -1,  SPAGS beat the price my cousin's electrical supply
    house formally located in Nasgua could do for price when he offered
    me 'contractor prices' on exactly the same components.  And this
    also included the Mass sames tax!  

    I agree with spags but it is better to use 12/2 with ground for
    your wireing.  then if you change your mind about what to have on
    a perticular circuit you don't have to rewire.

    re: .4
    
    When I'm laying out the room on paper, putting 12-2 everywhere 
    seems like the way to go.
    
    When I'm trying to stuff seven devices into a 5-ganged box, I wish 
    Romex came in 22-2.
    
    -joet

It's usually a good idea to keep the light circuits separate from the outlet 
circuits.  That way if you blow the breaker by putting too much load on the 
outlets, you still can turn on the lights to get to the basement.  And if you 
do that, 14-2 is perfectly adequate for a lighting circuit.  I do agree that 
it's a good idea to use 12-2 on all outlet circuits.

Paul

    
    Well, I have four circuits in place, only one is 12/2 and that is
    for the garage and the tools out there (three or four plugs).
    
    I have 10 plugs on one line; 8 plugs (2 switchable) and a light on
    another; and 3 plugs (2 switchable) and 3 lights on the other. 
                                                 
    Each circuit is about 1/2 of the downstairs, that way if one pops
    the lights (at least 1) will be usable still.
    
    I finished most of the studding last night - i'm having a lot of
    fun with this...
    
    Question:  Do I need a vapor barrior in the cealing downstairs?
    (remember this is the downstairs of a split).
    
    						.dave.

>    Question:  Do I need a vapor barrior in the cealing downstairs?
>    (remember this is the downstairs of a split).

    Assuming that the downstairs will be a living area maintained at
    roughly the same temperature as the upstairs, no vapor barier is
    needed.

    After reading note 290 on the problem with an electricla circuit
    here is something I just wanted to share with you:
    
    Problem: came home and noticed that there was no water after a few
    flushes of a toilet.....
    
    Logic behind solving it:
    
    Ah' we had a lightning storm this afternoon while I was out I wonder
    if we got hit again (this would be the third time)....down to the
    electrical box....circuit breaker blown. 
    
    So we fixed that, now there is water...but during the evening lights
    started flickering, fans started going from normal speed to very
    high and then down to almost a dead crawl.
    
    Well down to the electrical box again....pull them breakers...find
    some "fyed ones" replace those.  See if there is some short in my
    line to the pump that could be causing this...doesn't seem to be.
    
    Well another day of flickering lights...well before I call the
    electricial (because as on the three stooges <can't resist this
    I love them>...."This house has sure gone crazy!"), I called the
    power company. 
    
    I wasn't home so I didn't get the entire scoop (second hand from
    my wife).  But they replaced somethings and told here that it was
    possible that 'the neutral to the house was actually carrying current
    periodically....we replaced somethings and if that doesn't work
    call the electricial...it is in your house'.
    
    Well that fixed it...and the best part...FOR FREE.
    
    -Jay
    
    PS: Just installed a lighting arrestor between the pump and house.
    
    

   
   All this talk about lightning and other forces that tend to detonate
   the electricals of a house have got me wondering...
   
   What/where/how/who/??? are/is/was/etc... are these surge protectors
   and other gizmos used to protect ones home and electronics from self
   destruction?
   
   Where do they go?  where do you get them?  how much? etc..??
   
   						.dave.

    	There are many "so called" lightning protectors on the market.
    Radio Shack sell them and so do a lot of other places.  Be VERY
    careful when buying something like this.  If you are trying to protect
    a motor or heater or something like that, they WORK FINE.  If you're
    trying to protect a transistor TV, micro-computer controlled micro-wave
    oven, Computer, or etc., THEY'RE USELESS.  The voltage rises so
    fast on the power lines after a lightning strike that a solid state
    TV or etc. actually ends up protecting the protector.  If the
    protection devices within the solid state units can't protect it,
    it can't be protected.....   So, think what you want to protect
    before you buy any of these units.

                The usefulness of the protectors depends on the type
        use. The older style gas discharge tube type, didn't work worth
        a d$%^ with solid state stuff. It didn't work fast enough. The
        newer MOV type, can work if installed properly. Properly means
        for a 110v appliance, on between each of the conductors. If it
        is an appliance with a two prong cord, one MOV of the proper
        rating can do it. If it is a three wire cord, you would need
        three! MOV's. One from hot to neutral, one from hot to ground,
        and one from neutral to ground (the one most often left out!).
        The reason for the neutral to ground is that while ground and
        neutral are nominaly at the same potential, when you get a
        surge, all kind of strange currents and voltages get set up. 
                
                BTW - NONE of the protectors will protect against a
        DIRECT HIT!! But you don't need to be hit directly to have a
        problem.
                
                For more on this subject, there is an interesting
        article on it in the September issue of QST (an amateur radio
        magazine published by the ARRL).
                
                        /s/     Bob

    Better late than never?
    
    MOV's will only protect against a certain size spike, the power
    company (in theory) limits spikes with larger gizmo's so that
    MOV's will be adequate.  Are they good enough? I'm at the
    end of a run in a semi rural area, when I had my power
    upgraded from 50 amp, I had the electrician place one of the
    gizmo's in the box on the pole. I think it was about 40$, about
    the size of an 8 oz can.
    
    		Joe

	I Need a couple of quick answers to some wiring questions for
    a project I want to finish up this weekend. 

1)	For garage & basement work shop areas what is the max number of
    outlets allowed on a 20 AMP circuit? This circuit is more for
    convenience than for big power tools. I'll have a separate single 20
    AMP outlet for the big power hogs. 
	Also how many for a 15 AMP circuit in the same area?

	

2)	Are there any specific codes/practices regarding 2 separate
    circuits in the same box? (ie 2 circuits in a 3 or 4 gang switch box)

             
    			Thanks...
    ...Dave
    
    
    

    
RE: Question #1

 1.5 amps per duplex outlet NEC section 220-3(c).


 Jim
    

    I want to put a 4' shop light in my basement. I saw one that has a
    power cord attached. On the box it says not to cut the cord. Why?
    I'd like to wire the light to a switch. Do I have to add a junction
    box with a receptacle to plug the light in, and then run the box off
    a switch? 
    
    Don
    

    I dunno, either, so I had an outlet put on the workshop ceiling, right
    next to the shop light, and plugged the thing in there, with a switch
    mounted on the wall next to the workbench.  It is actually sort of
    handle to have an outlet up there sometimes, since a cord plugged in
    there doesn't run across the bench or the floor where it might be in
    the way of whatever I am working on, or get tripped over.  The shop
    light came with a very short cord, maybe all of two feet long, with a
    grounded plug on the end.
    
    

re .13:

>    power cord attached. On the box it says not to cut the cord. Why?
>    I'd like to wire the light to a switch. Do I have to add a junction

my guess would be that the reason is associated with the chains.  if you
hang the light from the chains it should probably be plugged in as in a
movable type appliance.  on the other hand, i have opened those lights up
and hardwired them in with a switch, but i also screwed the light to
ceiling permanently. 

craig

    Why the short cord? Cost reduction, of course. They save upto $0.15 per
    foot of cord depending on the type and the supplier. 

    Why not cut the plug off? U.L. listing or recognition would be
    invalidated. So what you say? Well that really is no problem, all that
    means is that the unit they tested was safe for a customer to use if it
    was used in the exact manner described by the vendor and in the exact
    condition submitted. 

    The vendor KNOWS, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that with the cord so 
    short someone is going to cut off the plug and do strange things with 
    the line cord. So- to protect themselves against a lawsuit from a handy 
    dandy DIYer who burns down the house (or worse) because he wires the 
    light wrong, They put a warning label on the fixture to meet U.L. 
    requirements and satisfy their obligation to warn. (silly tort law
    legal jargon)  

    In my miscellaneous electrical junk box I'll bet I have a dozen
    one-foot cords from workshop flourescents I've hard-wired over the
    years.   They make good replacement cords for power tools (where
    you usually use an extension cord anyway).
    
    If they're trying to save money, why are these cords 16/3 wire for
    a 2x40 watt fixture?  That's about 3/4 amp draw on wire that can
    take 10 amps.  Thinner and longer would cost the same and be much more
    cost effective.

I'm not an expert, but I believe that the rules for running romex (which
is modern plastic sheathed wiring) go like this:

1)  Never leave it exposed in a living area.

2)  If you run it perpendicular to the joists, you must cover it so that
    no one can hang anything from it.

3)  You must run it at least 3/4" (or is it 1") in from the edge of the
    joists, so that no one can put a nail into it.  Or else you must
    put it behind metal of a specified thickness (I forget what), for
    the same reason.

4)  If you run it along a stud or on the underside of joists, you must
    fasten it securely at short distances.

Needless to say, my own basement doesn't even come close.  They put in
20' runs of romex just laying on the sill -- I can't imagine why the
wire inspector didn't get them for that.  And worse things, like taped-
over wire nuts (*all* connections must be in boxes!).

Also, my basement has a bunch of the old "snake-like" conduit stuff.
I'd like to replace it all -- generally those taped over wire nuts
occur where somebody connected romex to the metal sheathed stuff.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I wired my basement shop with EMT conduit (thinwall metal) because most
    of my runs would be perpendicular to the joists. The conduit is not
    very expensive, but remember to use the correct wire in it (not romex)-
    actually separate conductors that are not in a sheath. I've also used
    PVC conduit and it also works well.
    
    Eric

    RE: Back a few
    
    The code states for bored holes in joists:
    
    "... holes shall be bored so that the edge of the hole is not less than
    1 1/4" (31.8mm) from the nearest edge of the wood member.  Where this
    distance cannot be maintained the cable or raceway shall be protected
    from penetration by screws or nails by a steel plate or bushing, at
    least 1/16" (1.59mm)thick, and of appropriate length and width
    installed to cover the area of wiring."
    
    
    Rather than spend the money on EMC and THHN wire for a basement, I
    would bore holes in the joists and use regular Romex.
    
    Dan

    I guess its a matter of personal taste and what kind of wiring you're
    planning to do. When I did my basement, I was wiring up 2 shops with
    multiple circuits and conduit runs that went along the foundation wall
    for power tool outlets. If you're only installing 1 outlet, then romex
    would be fine.
    
    Eric

    
    Check with the local building code. I know in Syracuse NY all wiring in
    the basement has to be in conduit if it's in the open. Here in NH it
    dosn't. I think NH complies with the National code, while Syracuse
    adopted some local code to override the National code.
    
    Mike

    
    I'm currently finishing a room in my basement.   I'm putting up 2x3
    walls along the perimeter, leaving myself anywhere between 2 and 5
    inches between the 2x3 wall and the concrete wall (mainly for
    evaporation purposes and/or room for pipes etc).   Now comes the question
    of "How do I wire the room?" or better phrased "How do I secure the romex
    to the studs?".  I'd rather not drill holes through the 2x3's since it
    would take away from their sturdiness.   Any ideas?
    
    Thanks.
    
                  -- Phil

    I think you might be able to use cable ties. Just run your romex behind
    the 2X3, put the cable tie loosely around the romex and hold the cable
    tie to the side of the 2X3  with a nail bent over or a staple nail. 

    I can't seem to find the correct reference in the code but...
    
    A number of electricians I know recommended to just place the wire
    behind the 2x3s.  The code does require that the cable be attached
    within 4 inches of the box though.  What this means is that the wires
    are stapled to the stud with the box and just draped behind all of the
    others.
    
    Dan

    RE:.4 Draping the wire between boxes...
    
    I don't know if I would do this regardless of code, seems to me this
    put unnecessary strain at the staples, why not just run the wire behind
    each stud and at every other stud staple it to the side of the 2x3 then
    keep running the wire behind the studs to the next odd stud...  This
    way the wire is only running unstapled for a maximum of 32"...  The tie
    wrap idea is pretty good too, don't know much about the code though.
    
    Fra

    RE: .-1
    
    I realize that it would appear to cause undue strain on the staple but,
    I usually would have the cables entering the box from below.  Mainly
    the staples are supporting the cable as it enters the box only.  The
    majority of the weight could be resting on the floor.?
    
    Dan

    An earlier reply mentioned that NM cable must be "covered" to prevent
    things being hung from it when crossing joists.  I just made a rough
    run by drilling holes in the centers of 2x10's and stringing the NM
    through it -- this is in the basement, and I'm not intending to put
    up a cieling.  Is this likely to fail inspection?  (I'm in Lancaster,
    MA).  And I thought I was being helpful by avoiding the "cable on a
    board" method of crossing the joists...

    RE: .6
    
    Running the NM cable thru the hgoles should pass with no problems.  If
    you has stapled the cable to the bottom of the joists rather than drill
    the holes, then you would need to have strapping on each side of the
    cable.  I am told that this is to protect the cable from being struck
    by you moving stuff around.
    
    Dan

    Having been in the same situation, I actually found it easier to use
    EMT conduit for the runs (the EMT is fairly cheap anyway) rather than
    do all that drilling.
    
    Eric

re: condit vs drilling:
	It all depends on the drill and bit you are using.  A Milwalkee right
angle drill with a 1" 'nail eater' bit goes much faster than doing up pipe. 
That, if you are doing the pipe box-to-box with offset etc.

Brian

    Is it legal to run Romex cable through conduit, assuming that the
    conduit is only being used to mechanincally protect the wire?
    
    Our dryer outlet is mounted on the cellar wall will a piece of
    conduit running up the wall.  The cable simply enters the conduit
    at the top (no box) and runs down to the outlet.  Presumably this
    was installed when the house was built but I'm wondering if it still
    up to code.
    
    -Mike
    

    RE-.1
    >>
        Is it legal to run Romex cable through conduit, assuming that the
        conduit is only being used to mechanincally protect the wire?
    
    Yes, It is legal provided you still follow the rules for number of
    conductors and wire gauges allowed in a conduit of the size you are
    using.
    
    -j