Conference 7.286::home_work

    			Quarry Tiles
    I checked thru the other notes and could not find anything to
    help me.
    So my question is about applying quarry tiles to sheet rock walls 
    behind my coal/wood stove (vc vigalant) it is set in a coner with
    a brick hearth..
    Some people say to use a Adhesive Application but some poeple say
    not to because it will melt????? Or should I just use the Motar
    Application???
    Could some help me out I would like to do it this weekend?
                                                          
    Steve
    

>    Some people say to use a Adhesive Application but some poeple say
>    not to because it will melt????? Or should I just use the Motar
>    Application???
    
	I'm not sure what "the Motar Application" is, but if you mean mortar,
I'd forget it in this application.  I can't imagine trying to get quarry tiles
to stick to a vertical layer of mortar long enough to be of much good.  Use the
recommended adhesive for the tiles.  I don't think enough heat could get
through the tiles to "melt" the adhesive unless you're putting the stove within
a foot or so of the wall.  You wouldn't do that, would you? 

	In case "motar" is something new that we should know about, could you
tell us what it is? 
							--Mike

    re:1 sorry about that i spell it wrong.

    Have you checked with your building inspector or fire department
    about installing this stove?  
    
    When I installed my wood stove I had to build a heat shield that 
    was non-combustible and spaced a minimum of 1" from the wall on
    non-combustible spacers (see figure).  I used Durock for the 
    non-combustible backing and put a brick face finish on it.
    
    I would seriously question how safe it is to install the quarry
    tile on the sheetrock wall.  
    
    Check with your building inspector or fire department.  A little
    inconvenience is better than losing your house....or more.
    
    
    
                |
                |
                |<-1"->|  heat shield (non-combustible material)
                |      |
      wall-->   |      |              +---------+
                |      |<----18"----->|         |
                |      |              |         |
                |      |              | stove   |
                |      |              |         |
                |      |              |         |
                |                     +---------+
                |
                --------------------------------------
    
                            hearth
                |
                |
                | 

    	Re: .3
    	
    	You'll be building an illegal installation if you don't space
    your stove from the wall as if the wall was combustable type material.
    Even if you cover the wall with  a non-combustable the material
    behind it still is. If you ever had a stove going for about 6 hours
    at full tilt within 3 feet of a wall you'll know why. 
    	Check With your local building department..
    
    				...Dave
    

    RE: .3
    
    > Even if you cover the wall with  a non-combustable the material
    >behind it still is.
    
        Sheetrock and blueboard are considered non-combustible materials.
    
    -al

    Sheetrock must be 5/8" to be considered a firewall 1/2" dosent qualify
    at least here in colorado. Most homes are built with 3/8" or 1/2"
    on interior walls. I'd be double sure before doing it. It is not
    unknown to have the wooden studs burst into flames after years of
    being exposed to hi heat this has burned many homes to the ground.
    Improper installation can cause insurance company problems and could
    prevent the sale of your home in the future not to mention the excess
    cost of re-doing it if it fails inspection.
    When it comes to fire prevention any cut corners are an invite to
    disaster. Do it right and never be sorry.
    
    -j

    
    
    	Ok first the wall has 1/2" sheet rock and then over that
        5/8" firecode sheet rock, and the stove is set in a coner
    	it is also at least 18" from each wall is it save enough
        now to put the tiles up?? It has been inspected the stove
    	was put in last fall.  But i'm still wondering which adhesive
        to use????
    
    steve
       

    When I went home last night I dug up my paperwork for the stove
    installation and what you are planning to do does not meet the NFPA
    standards for stove installations.  If the stove is going to be
    less than 36" from the walls it requires a heat shield like I mentioned
    in my previous note.  The air space is required to allow the heat
    build up to dissipate.
    
    In addition to the heat shield there are other requirements for
    hearth dimensions based on how the stove is loaded and cleaned out.
    
    re. sheetrock:  It still has a paper covering over the gypsum. 
    
    re. adhesive:  There are mortar based adhesives available, check
    into one of these and then grout between the tiles.

    Your building inspector and/or fire department should have some
    literature pertaining to stove installations.

    Please take the time to check this out...the cost is to great if
    something goes wrong.
    
    /Ernie
    

    
    As stated before it is highly advisable to consult your local building
    for fire instector. I found that each town has different rules.
    
    Examples:
    
    . If the wall is a combustable wall then the stove must be at least
      36" from the wall where I live in Goffstown NH. But in Salem NH
      they say only 30". Dosn't seem like much, but when everything
      is already built and the fire inspector makes a visit and says
      that you have to move things out another 6", could be a pain in
      the @ss.
    
    . Some towns allow the tripple wall chimney pipe to be used when
      through a wall, Goffstown dosn't.

    Z-Brick makes an adhesive that is safe for use with their bricks
    it should work for the job. The adhesive has a slovent that is flamible
    but only for the first 24 hours after that it is very safe.
    BTW-it has fiberglass fibers in it to make it stronger.
    
    -j
    

  Try calling your local Fire Department.  Usually, they would much rather
  come out to look at a stove installation than to put out a fire.

  JP

    Also Vermont Castings sells heat shields for their stoves that will
    allow you to place the stove closer to the wall and meet fire codes.

As mentioned earlier, you must be at least 36" from combustables.  Even if you
have sheetrock, the studs behind it aren't fireproof!  Therefore you MUST go
with the heat shield.  When I built mine I quickly found that you couldn't hang
it from a wall (it was over 300 pounds by the time it was done).  Even if you
have a heat shield you must still be 12" from that as well.  As for what 
adhesives are heat resistant, I'd check with the place you're getting the tile.

-mark

    
    I do have a heat shield behind the stove,do they make some type
    of shield to go along the side of the stove?
    
    steve
                                                

Has anybody done or seen an interior floor done in FLAGSTONE ?  I was thinking
of doing a kitchen with the stuff.  My thoughts are that it would be a real
durable floor covering (permanent?) and with a few coats of polyurethane or 
somesuch it would look real nice too.  Thoughts ? Comments ?

Thanks.
Scott.

PS to the Mods:

I tried to find a topic that would fit this question and gave up.  Maybe
we need a generic FLOORS category ?

    Some friends of mine had a flagstone floor in their kitchen.  Looked
    nice, was certainly durable.  The only drawback I can see is that
    it's HARD.  Hard when you drop things on it, hard when you walk
    on it.  Personally, I'd prefer a "softer" floor (wood or linoleum),
    but perhaps the hardness wouldn't bother you.  A couple of rubber
    mats by the sink and stove to ease the feet when standing might
    do the trick, too.

We installed a quarry tile floor in our kitchen, and Steve's comments 
about cold and hard are true, but not major problems.  As he mentioned, 
we put a rubber mat in front of the work area, and it takes care of 
fatigue when standing.

I've seen flagstone used in living rooms and places like that, so 
there's no reason you can't use it in a kitchen.  You'd want to use the 
stuff with a flat surface, since kitchens usually collect things that 
roll around, and wheels would have a hard time on the uneven ones. (Even 
if you don't have wheelie-things, future people might.)

I wouldn't use poly on the stone.  It will yellow and eventually peel. 
There's a product called "Trewax" that is made for stone/terrazzo/ceramic 
tile floors.  It does a great job of putting down a shine, it doesn't 
seem to yellow or peel and it can be stripped (if you ever need to) with 
a regular floor wax stripper.  That alone should put it miles ahead of poly.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    We have slate floors in our kitchen and I don't like it.
    (It's just a matter of personal taste.)  The slate is dark
    and it seems to make the whole room somewhat dark.  (We don't
    get a lot of sun light in the room.)  Also, you have to
    think about the height of the stone in conjuction with the
    flooring in the other connecting rooms.  In our case, the 
    stone was about 1/4"(?) higher that the floor leading into
    the living room.  (The hallway and dining room is carpeted
    but we know that we will have a problem with the floor height
    when we finally pull the rugs up.)
    
    Eventually, we plan on getting rid of the stones in the kitchen,
    but for now we have to live with it.  Also, as mentioned in the
    previous notes, when you drop any glass object, that object
    may shatter.  I had a corning corelle dish shatter on me (and
    they are not suppose to break, or so I thought).

    
    Personally, I would hate flagstone in a kitchen.  If you do much
    cooking at all you'd be walking on that hard uneven floor constantly.
    That's a little different from having it in a living room, since
    you usually do less walking there.  Also, I would think that washing
    it might be a pain if it is not fairly smooth.
    
    -tm
    

    I agree with -.1 and -.2  Friends ahve a slate kitchen floor.  It's
    hard, it's dark, it's rough (of course, I trip on dust, but...)
    it shows grease spots when things splatter, it's noisy... in my
    opinion, a big mistake.  I'm fond of quarry tile but I've been
    rethinking the issue since encountering the slate.  How about reserving
    the flagstone for an adjacent area or using a flagstone patterned
    vinyl?  I realize it's not the same...flagstone seems so much more
    classy...but practicality is essential in heavy use rooms like
    kitchens.  Also, think about the pososity of flagstone.  I don't
    know if there's one type of rock hereabouts that "flagstone" really
    is, but in Michigan people referred to sandstone as flagstone a
    lot, and I'd think sandstone would be an absolute sponge for grease
    and dirt.  It sure was for the sandstone hearth my folks had!
    
    Good luck!
    
    Sherry    

<MTWAIN::WELLCOME "Steve Wellcome (Maynard)">

re .1 (hard) -- I know, no big problem here...

<PSTJTT::TABER "Answer hazy -- ask again later">

re .2 (trewax) -- Great, thanks for the suggestion.  Does it SEAL too ?

<EMASA2::YEE_WONG>

re .3 (dark, height) -- This is a solar home with LOTS of sun in the kitchen
                        so I would think a dark floor a benefit.  I haven't
                        thought about height yet...Thanks for the reminder.
                        
<REGENT::MERSEREAU>

re .4 (uneven floor) -- I'd be trying to get fairly flat stuff...

<UCOUNT::BAILEY "Corporate Sleuth">

re .5 (noisy) -- Two kids, one on the way.  We're immune to noise :-)
      (porosity) -- hmm? Good thought.  Hopefully .2's suggestion seals as well.
      (classy) -- Exactly.  I'm a classy guy :-).



Thanks.
Scott.

    What's wrong with ceramic tile?  It is flat, non-porous, doesn't
    need sealing, doean't need waxing, is a lot easier to put down that
    flagstone, and *classy*.  Comes in any color you want.
    
    And it's cold and hard too.  Ask me if I like this part of it in
    January.
                                                          
    	Andrew

< Note 2670.8 by ERLANG::BLACK >

re .8    (What's wrong with ceramic tile?)

Nothing wrong with ceramic tile.  I'm just thinking of something else.

Thanks.
Scott.

I'm not sure of Trewax seals or not.  It looks like it does, but I've 
never tested for it, and I don't recall if the bottle said anything to 
that effect.

The stuff I've seen called flagstone in New England is a kind of slate 
that's brown, blue or redish in color and is no more porous than quarry 
tile.  You can get them with one side perfectly flat, so there should be 
no problem with an uneven flag, though because of their irregular shape, 
you'd have some difficulty with unevenness between flags.  I have seen 
regular-shaped floor tiles cut from what appears to be flagstone and they 
would probably be the best bet if you like the look.

Sandstone would be almost impossible to seal since it's so very porous. 
Sandstone flags would be a disaster in a kitchen from the point of view
of sanitation and would probably be very subject to wear. (Even hard
sandstone is pretty soft.) 
					>>>==>PStJTT

    I've recently gotten a booklet from the (Hardwood Institute of
    America?)that shows a lot of beautiful floors consisting of marble
    or granite squares (1 ft sq - 4 ft sq) framed or "crosshatched"
    by hardwood strips or planks.  Does anyone have any tips, techniques,
    advice, references, etc. on how they lay these floors?  I assume
    that the stone is glued down, and the wood is glued and/or screwed
    down.  Since the wood butts right up next to the stone, I'm concerned
    about how best to get the surface flat and finished. Is each piece
    planed, sanded, and pre-finished before it's layed down?  Is there
    any way to put it all down at once and then finish it?

    I'd be interested in getting a copy of the book. Could you post a
    pointer here ? 
    
    I would seem that if you try to finish the floor after complete
    installation, the stone would ge scratched from sanding the wood. I'd
    opt to lay the finished wood first matched to a particular stone. After
    the wood is installed and finished lay the stone in a mastic. I don't
    think I'd try to do it without a grout bordor around each stone to
    provide some leeway. As long as each board has a finish on it you will
    be able to remove any extra mastic as you work. 
    
    Seems like a job that will turn out to be more pain than pleasure,
    especially if you try to do it without grout or similar. Some of these
    "book" examples are one of a kind operations that take a long time to
    complete or are done under controlled conditions like a perfectly level
    floors and square rooms. Of course, my house meets those conditions ... 

    Booklet is "Imagination Within" from:  Hardwood Institute
                                           POB 34518
                                           Memphis, TN  38184-0518
                                           901/377-1818
    
    I believe there was a small charge (couple of $$) for it.

    I have flagstones in my front hallway(split entry) and we love it but some
    of the stones are coming loose.  What do I use to glue them back in and
    what kind of grout between them.
                                 Dave

    RE: .12
    
    What is the surface under the flagstones?
    
    Marc H.

    I believe it's plywood with tile cement.
    
    Dave

Anyone have any experience with using granite tiles for a countertop? 
We're going to remodel the kitchen (move around and paint the cabinets
and replace windows and countertops). There will be a 5 ft length
of cabinet for a baking area. A slab of granite would be too
expensive. Some of the Kitchen magazines say to use 12-14" tiles
to lower this cost. A few questions:

o Do you install it like regular tile?

o Is it practical? What about the grout lines.. will I forever be
  scrubbing dough out of the grout?

o Any recommendations on the least expensive places to purchase?

I don't have granite tiles, but I do have ceramic tile on my countertops in 
the kitchen, and I've found both pros and cons about it.  I love being able 
to just put down a hot pan from the stove or oven without having to worry 
about damaging the countertop.  And it wears really well.  What I don't
like is that if I knead something on it, the dough ends up in the grout
as you mentioned, and if I roll out pastry dough, it gets this checkerboard
pattern on the back, so I usually do all my kneading and rolling on a
pastry board.  And it is very unforgiving if you drop something on it, but
then, since I also have a ceramic tile floor, I'm used to breaking anything
that I drop.

    I go to school with a gentleman who is a granite cutter.  He's not sure
    about prices.  However he did mention that because of its porous nature
    granite tends to stain.  You might want to take that into consideration
    before purcahsing the tile. 
    
    RE:  pricing.  Try calling a quarry.  Look in the yellow pages under
    Quarries.  If your in MA call Fletcher Granite Co. in Chelmsford. 
    There is also one in Concord, NH.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Len 

    I installed granite tile for countertop in my kitchen.  It goes on just
    like tile, grout line issue is just the same as with tile.  It does
    require a wet saw to cut.  It looks beautiful, cleans fine.  
    
    However, it will stain, particularly by oil.  And oil stains, unlike 
    mere color stains (e.g. red wine) do not come out.  Therefore, I 
    recommend sealing the granite countertop.  That is what I intend to do, 
    if I ever finish the kitchen remodelling project!

    We're looking at putting down a flagstone floor in our foyer.  It's
    an area about 5' x 8' which receives a lot of traffic as it is also
    at the foot of the stairs and is one of the methods of access to the 
    l.r.  Needless to say-the carpet there looks very tired.  There is a 
    good plywood subfloor - wondered what kind of luck others have had 
    when DIY or are we better off hiring it out?  
    
    
    

i havn't done it, but i've heard of some things to check.
you may have trouble keeping the original level.  
thin stone tends to break easily, and stone that is not on a 
very rigid sub floor also tends to break. the cement also
breaks loose sooner when it is between thin stones.

you may have to add extra support because of the weight.
sometimes the support beams are cut away partly to make room for
the more rigid subfloor, then extra beams are added to compensate
and to carry the extra weight of the stone.

the finished job might look good for 6 months or 50 years,
depending on the invisible work.

If you have a carpet there now, you probably only have a 3/4" plywood subfloor.
If so, at minimal you'll need to put more plywood over that, typically 1/2" to
bring the thickness up to 1-1/4" and to probably also match with whatever is
adjacent to the new floor.  As the previous noter said, also check below the
floors to ensure there is a solid support structure under the subfloor, possibly
reinforcing if not.

Putting down a tile floor isn't really that tough, but like lots of other 
projects getting started can be the hardest...

-mark

    
    Slate is another option, requires no care, tougher than tiles.
    
    Eva

    We have the flagstones already - a 'gift' - as in - 'here, want these
    I can't use them' kind of gift.  so we have more than enough for this 
    project and would like to use them instead of going with tile or slate.
    
    thanks for the ideas.
    carol

>    We have the flagstones already - a 'gift' - as in - 'here, want these
>    I can't use them' kind of gift.  so we have more than enough for this 
>    project and would like to use them instead of going with tile or slate.

	Go read the book "Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House" or
rent the movie (Cary Grant, I think...).  Mr. B blows his cool when
faced with additional charges by the builder...turns out Mrs. B had
noticed some leftover slate, asked builder to install it in the potting
room...required lowered subfloor, which required cutting joists, which
required moving main structural member, which required relocating all
plumbing lines....it's almost as funny as when Mrs. B details her
color choices to the painter.  

	This should be required reading (the book is better, unless you
really like Cary Grant) for anyone considering building or renovating
a house.  Beforehand it seems exaggerated humor...afterward it's
nostalgic.  "Yup, we made that mistake too..."

	It was (relatively) remade as "The Money Pit", starring Tom
Hanks, with a bit more slapstick.