Conference 7.286::home_work

    Your opening a real can-of-worms here, asking others what the use for
    hammers. 
    
    I have two metal handle/ rubber hand grip hammers that I use. 
    A 16oz for finish and light duty work and a 20oz for framing. 

    Charly

    Use the 20 oz Estwing framing hammer.  Good balance, good length
    and all that.  I like the one with the little nubbies on the head
    for framing in that it sort of set the nail a bit below the board
    surface.
    

    Check the DELNI::TOOLS conference.  There might be a discussion
    of hammers in there, or you could start one. (KP7)
    
    Marc

  Take three aspirin 20 minutes before beginning the job and two per hour
  thereafter (and try to do the job on a full stomach...).  I suffer from
  tendonitis (tennis elbow) and hammering is a real killer job.  The
  aspirin overdose keeps the joints and connecting tissue from ever getting
  inflamed and painful.  Works for me.

  JP

    Two years ago I built a 10'x15' enclosed porch on the back of my
    house. I used a hand me down, small, short handle hammer. By the
    time I was done, and for many weeks after I suffered from what was
    diagnosed as tennis elbow. Very painfull and very limiting. Two
    months ago I started a 15 x 26 two story addition. The first thing
    I did was to go out and buy a hammer that could offer some mechanical
    advantage. Ij didn't want a sore arm again. I bought the ESWING
    (sp.) framing hammer. Metal body with a rubber handle/grip. Serrated
    on the surface that contacts the nail. (I think so the hammer will
    "grip" the nail better. It could be a 20oz but I think it's a 22oz.
    
    Best thing I could have done. My addition is now completly framed
    and enclosed and I havn't felt any pain with my arm. I feel extreme
    pain when the leverage that the hammer offers gets applied to my
    thumb, but that's the price you pay.
    
    Buy a framing hammer. You won't regret it.
    
    Good Luck,
    Jack

    You really need two hammers to be a DIYer.  One for framing
    type work as mentioned in previous notes (Estwing) and one
    for finish work.  You wouldn't want to put up trim with the 20 oz
    hammer.
    
    -al

    I concur on the Estwing 20 or 22 oz. hammers. Great for framing and
    beating the hell out of anything you want to destroy. If you have never
    had the pleasure of swinging one of these monsters, you don't know what
    you're missing. I use an old Craftsman 16 oz. with a formed steel shaft
    and rubber handle for all finish work, but the touch of a finish hammer
    is a very personal thing, like a guitar. 

    - Ram 

    go wit da estwing der you....  really though, i'd say minimum for
    framing is a 20 oz., although I like the 22 oz with the curved claw.
    They make a straight claw 22 oz with a baffled end, which is really
    nice.  Baffled ends, for those who don't know what i'm talking about,
    are the hammer heads which look like a meat tenderizer...  I like
    the estwings, they have really worked nicely for me.
    
    Fra
    

    now for some serious finish work.... I prefer the leather handled
    type hammers in 16 oz naturally.  I like the leather because it
    is very easy on the hands.
    
    fra
    

    Just so that we can make whoever said this was going to be a
    controversial topic eat those words, I have to put my vote in for
    the Estwing 20-22 oz framing hammers as well.  As a measure of how
    much they can save on your elbow, consider this.  I built a 8x32
    foot deck using PT 2x6.  This is one he-- of a lot of 16 d nails
    (no comments about nails vs screws please).  My trusty 16 oz standard
    hammer took about 6-7 blows to seat each 16 d nail.  The Estwing
    took about 3-4 on average.  This adds up to a tremedous savings
    on your person over the course of a few days of banging nails.
    
    Just my .02
    Stew

One of the big decisions to make when you buy a hammer is straight claw vs.
curved claw (although the "serious" framing hammers only seem to come in
straight claw, and the pros only seem to use straight claw). 

Besides the functional differences between these two claw styles (which 
I'll leave to others), there's a safety consideration here.  If you're
hammering horizontally at about eye level - a typical and comfortable
posture - and you're a bit over-zealous in your backswing, you'll hit
yourself in the face.  The severity of the blow depends on where and how
hard it hits, but the straight claw is MUCH more likely to break the skin
and draw blood. 

Such facial cuts are common among framing carpenters, even experienced
ones.  Note that this problem occurs even if you're wearing goggles.

So if you're a klutz like I am, you might prefer the curved claw.

Now for true confessions:  I have a straight-claw 20-oz Stanley, love it, 
and have never injured myself in the manner described above.  The framing 
carpenters that worked on my house recently used straight-claw 22-oz 
Estwings; none of the pros they know use anything else.  They teased me one
day when I had some sort of cut on my face - they were sure I had smacked
myself with a hammer, and wouldn't believe my claims to the contrary. 

    Well, I bought a 22oz straight claw stanley with a wood handle.
	It's got the meat tenderizer face.  Works like a charm -- 400
    plus 10d nails and nary a sore elbow.   The tenderizer face keeps
    you honest -- everytime you miss the nail, it leaves an obvious
    tell-tale mark.  It does seem to make the hammer slip less on
    the nail, but I also managed to shear off most of the nail head
    a couple of times.
        
    Shortly thereafter I was pulling a nail with  my old 16oz Sears
    Craftsman and the wood handle broke in my hands.  Guess THAT's
    why the pros like estwings, eh?  Think the Crafstman guarantee
    includes the handle?

    			George
    
    

    I've got a Stanley "100-Plus" 20-oz curved claw wood-handled hammer
    that I've had about 20 years now.  It's GREAT as an all-around hammer.
    The balance is so good it swings about like a 16-oz.
    However, for bashing 20d nails and such it's too small.  The curved
    claw is good for pulling nails, but I have to use some judgement
    in amount of force or the handle would probably break.  A small
    block of wood under the head does amazing things for leverage though.
    Straight claw is better for prying boards apart.  If I were getting
    another one I'd probably get straight claw, but if I did I'd probably
    want the curved claw sometimes, so who knows.
    I LOVE the "feel" and balance of a good wood handle, and the Stanley 
    100-Plus has it just right.  I've never found a fiberglass or steel
    handled-hammer to compare.  But steel or fiberglass are a heck of
    a lot stronger.  
    So...in summary, you really need different hammers for differnt
    jobs.  I'd say:
	    16 oz. is good for finish work, too small for anything
    		above about 8d.
    	    20 oz. is a good all-around size.
    	    22 oz for framing, 24 oz. if your arm can swing that much
    		weight all day.  
    EASTWING framing hammers are great, if you're looking for anything
    but a wood handle.  For wood handles, go with the Stanley 100-Plus.
    
    
    

So where does one get an EASTWING hammer?  Does SPAGS carry them?  How much
should one expect to pay?

-mark

    Estwing (not Eastwing) hammers are found in most any hardware store
    that might be frequented by pro carpenters.  In Nashua, I've
    seen them at Hammar Hardware (no pun intended).  A 22 oz will run
    you $28.00 there, but they give a 10% discount for cash IF YOU ASK
    FOR IT.
    
    
    I've also seen them at Milford Lumber in Milford, NH.
    
    				George

    Straight clawed hammers are for ripping and prying, in addition
    to pulling nails.  Another thing that really makes them a little
    more versatile is that in close quarters you can get at and pull 
    nails, whereas with the curved claw you can't.
    
    The only problem with straight claws is that when you get into
    bigger nail sizes like 16's, you lose some of the leverage and end
    up using blocking, which isn't always conviently located (always
    seems like theres never a piece around when you need it).
           
    Curved claws will pull nails no matter what the size, and do it
    without blocking.  I find that its better to have both on hand in
    case you need a little persuading.....
    
    Fra

    FYI, the Craftsman guarantee does cover the handle on a wood handled
    hammer.  I just exchanged the hammer I broke yesterday morning.
    
    			George

For what it's worth, my father-in-law will NEVER let me pull nails with 
hammers because he claims that's the best way to break the handle.
He says hammers were made for pounding and if you want to remove a nail you
a crow bar, or whatever other nail pulling tool you have handy. Admittedly he
starting using hammers when the only kinds of handles were wood. 

I've gotta agree with him.  I almost never pull nails with a hammer.  Why
exert all that energy when the correct tool makes the job so much easier.
The only nails I pull with a hammer are things like 8d or less.

-mark

    Yes, Spag's does carry Estwing hammers.  I got my 20 oz. straight
    claw for around $13 on sale (several month's back) which is
    considerably less than the $28 quoted earlier!  They carry the full
    line.

I'd like to meet the man who can bend (let alone break) the handle of an 
Estwing framing hammer (in ANY direction, even 90 deg to the "usual" one).

I'd like to make the suggestion for 3 (yes, three) hammers.  I have an Estwing 
Framing hammer, a 16 oz (or thereabouts, I don't have it here at work!), that 
I consider "general purpose," and the smallest one they make which is ONLY 
used for trim so that the face stays clean and un-damaged).  I like the 
curved-claw hammers, but that's what I grew up using, so I'm certainly biased.
I figure that a pry-bar is going to give me alot more leverage for the kind of 
job I'd use the straight claw for (although the framing hammer is 
straight-claw).

		Andy Ostrom

    Hammers are like saws!  You should have one of every type made.
    You never know when you'll need that ONE hammer you don't have.
    I think it's a conspiracy of the tools manufacturers to keep us
    all poor!  Does anybody EVER have ALL the tools they "need"???
    

    re .-1
    
    The *only* tool you need is a checkbook!!  ;-)

>    The *only* tool you need is a checkbook!!  ;-)

I tried that, but checks are more dangerous than a straight-claw hammer 
when they bounce back.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    re:last couple....
    
    If hammers wern't meant to pull nails and prybars were, then we'd
    all be using ball peen hammers....
    
    Fra

I got my ESTWING last night at Spags.  It was $21.  Not cheap, but still less 
than the $28 quoted earlier...

re:-1

I still think a hammer is a lousy tool for the job.  If the nails are big (16d
or 20d), you may have to strain quite a bit even if you don't break the handle.
If the nails are real small, there's a fair chance you're doing finish work
and the hammer would simply mar the wood (if you don't stop to use a block).

All I'm saying is that there are specialty tools for EVERYTHING (as many people
have written throughout this file).  The point is there are a whole raft of
specialty tools for pulling nails so why waste time/energy using a hammer.

In fact, I have 3 different size crowbars ranging from 18" to 4' as well as a
wonder-bar and a couple of other nail pulling gagets.  I never even look at a 
nail without have at least one or two of them by my side.

It's a question of convenience.

Of course there's a bewildering variety of tools made for every conceivable 
specific purpose.  But huge numbers of tools can be a pain to buy, store, 
haul, and manage on the job site.

Some tools are multi-purpose, and are good enough at their secondary 
purposes to serve as adequate substitutes for many applications.  The claw 
of a hammer is one of the best examples.

My specific problem with specialized nail-pulling tools is that they don't 
hook onto my tool belt securely.  I have a hammer holster and/or loop, but 
no suitable method of attaching crowbars, wonder bars, or nail pullers to 
my body.  If I set a tool down, I'm likely to need to walk and probably 
stoop to pick it up again, if I can even find it.  This consideration is 
less important in a shop than on a job site, but how many of us routinely 
pull 16d nails in the shop?

I do own a (modest) assortment of specialized nail-pulling tools, but they're 
mostly used when I have a LOT of dedicated nail-pulling to do, or when I 
have the luxury of a crew larger than the number of available hammers (as 
in theatrical set construction).

    RE:-1
    I agree with your attitude, If I had to carry every tool available
    for every job, I'd weigh a ton....  Its a matter of convienence,
    If i'm nailing in decking for instance, and happen to bash in a
    16d nail and bend it, there is no way i'm gonna put down the hammer
    and use a crowbar....  One tool I find is essential to the job when
    you have to pull nails that are buried, is a cats claw... even using
    this tool, i'd still finish pulling the nail with the hammer.    
    
    If, however I was doing a job that was strictly pulling,tearing,prying
    apart lumber, i would have a hammer in one hand and a prybar in
    the other.
    
    Its not only a question of convienence but also time.
    
    Fra

Actually we're probably all in agreement.  I too use a hammer claw when in the
middle of a nailing project.  However, since I always put the nails in exactly
where I want them and never bend any, I never need to pull them out...  8-)

However, if I ever have any nails to remove that are either big or lots of them,
I'll use a bar of some sorts.  I too have a cats claw (if that's what they're
called) but if I have to take the trouble to get it, I grab a crow bar at the
same time and use that to remove the nail.

-mark

	I'm not sure what a framing hammer looks like.  Is weight the only 
    thing that distinguishes a framing hammer from a finish hammer?  I was
    a the Hollis flea market yesterday and there were a lot of 22 and 24 
    ounce Estwing hammers for $18.  The handle was much longer than a
    'regular' hammer.  Is this a framing hammer?  They also had 22 oz.
    hammers with normal length handles.  There were also a couple of
    30 oz. monsters.
    
    George

    yes -- they're framing hammers.  except maybe not the short one.
    and $18.00 is a good price.
    
    		George

    	The framing hammers I've used were heavy (28 oz.), had
    	long shafts, and had teeth on the striking zone of the
    	head. Much easier to drive large spikes.
    
    	Scott

    Yes, I'd define a "framing" hammer as one with an extra-long handle
    and weighing in the neighborhood of 24 oz., possibly with the
    meat-tenderizer face.

    As an aside, be careful about getting carried away with hammer weight.
    Unless you are used to it, swinging a 24-oz. hammer for very long
    can really do in your arm.  Personally, I find 20-oz. about right
    for my occasional-hammering muscles.  However, if you're doing heavy
    framing you'll probably need the weight, even if it does take some
    getting used to.  Just be sure you really do need that much hammer 
    before buying one.

    Why not splurge and buy a power nailer?
    

    One note regarding the straight -vs- curved claw hammers.
    On a straight claw hammer the claw can be driven in to the
    roof,wall,ect to stop a fall or provide extra support.
    One reason they are prefered by roofers.
    
    -j
    

or just carry an ice axe with you...  8-)

-mark

    For those of you in the Nashua area who are shopping for Estwing
    hammers, I was in the J.R. Discount store (I'm ashamed to admit)
    in the Marketplace Shoppes on Daniel Webster highway and they sell
    Estwing hammers at what seem to be very good prices.  I remember
    that the 30 oz. monster was $20, and most of the others were $13-$14.
    They sell lots of tools there, much of it junk, but some name brands
    (Milwaukee, Makita) at pretty good prices, although I don't know
    what their return/service policy is.  It reminded me of Spag's on
    a very small scale; they even have a fishing/tackle counter.
    
    Marc

    re: .37
    
    	J.R.'s is alright.  I think they get most of their merchandise
    from other places that have folded, insurace salvage etc. so you have
    to be careful about the quality but I've bought several tools there
    that are great for general repair.  My experience has been
    that they're always willing to take things back with no hassles.
    Sometimes you can get some surprising buys.  I stopped in a couple of 
    weeks ago and they had some 10" Freud saw blades hanging on the wall.  
    I don't remember if they were rip or cutoff blades  - I know they weren't 
    combination.  I do remember being shocked at the low price.  Why I
    didn't buy one I'll never know.

    
    George

RE: .37

Thanks for the tip.  I bought a 22oz Estwing for $16 there!

Alex

    How about rigging axe's? All the pro's out west used to use them,
    and recomended them whenever possible. Dont know why you would need
    the axe part of them, other than for "cuttin' things".

    I watched a guy frame a wall using a rigging ax he used the hatchet
    part to remove errant nails, one quick whack and the nail landed
    about 30' away.
    
    -j
    

THe base note spoke of driving 10d nails. All the conversation since speaks
to hammers as asked - with the head weight gradually escalating as the notes
progress.

Some thought might be given to who is USING the hammers. I live in an area
of Nashua NH where many new home have been built in the last 4 years and
I've watched framers at work. Yes, they DO use 20oz-plus hammers. Yes, they
do sink 16d nails with one or two shots. BUT they frame a whole house in
3-4 days. EVERY 3-4 days. AND they do the framing "flat" (build a wall on
the ground then lift it up). Very little if any hammering is done upwards.

A couple alternatives when: a) you aren't a framer; b) you must work over
your head; c) you are tired of banging:

1. Use SCREWS and a power screwdriver (not a drill with a screw bit).

   Power-driven screws (drywall screws as example) go in with less muscle
   can be backed out just as easily, and don't pull out. Unless you over-
   torque them, they are easily as strong as nails.

2. Use a Power Nailer

   The folks who build prefab homes use these, period. They are generally
   driven by compressed air, and can generally be rented - they cost $400
   and up to buy. You load a 'stick' of nails, fire up the compressor,
   and tap the nailer where you want a nail - and it plunks one in.

   THey are NOT for work over your head, but for flat framing, they go
    FAST.

Dennis
 

    As a new reader of this notes file I must say that I'm delighted
    to find it.
    
    The unanimity with regart to hammers is amazing to see. I own several
    from my days when it was DIFP not DIY (Do it for pay) Estwing is
    my choice also. The 22 oz. framer and th 16 oz. curved claw are
    the ones which get the most use. I have personal experience of using
    a straight claw to avoid sliding off a roof as an earlier reply
    mentioned. WARNING: If you are going on a roof when there is frost
    wait for the frost to melt off the roof INCLUDING IN THE SHADOW
    OF THE CHIMNEY. :^)
    
    One drawback to the long handle on the framing hammers, if you
    are very short and plan to carry your hammer in a hammer loop
    the extra long handle can trip you. I got my hammer for $5 after
    it tripped my co-worker for the 5th time ( He was about 5'2" )
    
    Hint on pulling stubborn big nails with a straight claw, rock the
    hammer side to side rather than a straight pull back. As has been
    pointed out before you won't hurt a good hammer even this way.
    The trick is to work it up slowly not in one pull.
    
    Alan
    

Went to Spags yesterday and happened to end up in the Tool/Hardware 
section and looked at the hammers while there.

The 22 oz Estwing (straight claw, tenderizer head) was listed at 22.95. 
These had the sort of polished, shiny finish. On the shelf right below 
these, were a couple of boxes with almost the exact same hammer for 
16.95. The only difference was that the shank and head on these were 
painted a sort of pastel blue. Otherwise identical.

For $6 I'd go with the ugly one. 

Although from glancing through some of the previous replies, even $16.95
doesn't seem like all that good of a deal.

Chuck

>The 22 oz Estwing (straight claw, tenderizer head) was listed at 22.95. 
>These had the sort of polished, shiny finish. 

Last week I bought a 28 oz Estwing at JR's Discount in Nashua for $18.  22 oz
hammers were only about $14-15.  Got a nice aluminum framing square while I was
there for $6. 

Paul

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  These topics were found
using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you may find other notes relating
to this subject by examining the directory yourself. 

If for any reason, after examining these notes, you wish to continue the 
discussion here, send me mail and this note will be un-writelocked immediately 
and without question.

Paul [Moderator]


That's the standard "this topic is a duplicate" note.  But I can't list the
topic numbers in the title because note 1111.85 (the TOOLS directory listing)
has 56 entries in it, and they wouldn't all fit in a title.  I didn't know 
whether you had looked at these or not before entering your topic.  If you did 
know about these, but wanted to have a specific new note on "What tools should 
no home be without", send mail and I'll re-enable this note.

This note re-opened by request of the author.  

So folks, what tools to YOU think every homeowner should have?

My answer is: it depends an awful lot on the homeowner what is considered 
"essential".  Probably even the least handy people should have a hammer, a
screwdriver (at least two, flat and phillips, but better to have a few
different sizes), and a few other similarly generic tools.  But beyond that?
Depends totally on how much that particular homeowner likes to do theirself.
I like to do almost anything that needs doing, and it would probably cost me a 
well over $1000 to replace the tools I consider "essential".  I've probably got
an equivalent amount invested in tools that I consider "almost essential", and 
it's probably going to cost me that much again to purchase tools that I don't
have yet but consider "desirable" :^)  I could write a multi-hundred line reply 
on what tool I have that I like, what I have that I don't like, what I wish I 
had, etc, etc, etc.

On the issue of what brands to buy, again that depends largely on the person.
It makes little sense to spend $130 on a good circular saw, and then cut three
boards a year with it.  Standard consumer grade tools (Sears, B&D etc) are made
with porous grease-impregnated bronze bearings that are designed to last for
about 24 hours of use, which will last you forever at three boards a year, and
can be had for under $50.  If you're going to build a house though, such a saw
will burn out about midway through the second floor (at least that's where MY
Sears saw burned out when I built my house), so it pays to spend the extra up 
front and get a tool that's designed to last.

The same goes for any tool.  You need to judge how much you're likely to use 
it.  For myself, almost every single time I've bought a cheap tool, I've 
regretted it when it later broke in my hand.  Conversely, my dad has a $35
circular saw that will probably last until the day he dies.  To say "you should
buy THIS brand of tool" in a universal sense to both of us would be a guarantee
that one or the other of us would buy the wrong tool.

So how much do you like to work around the house?

Paul

    i like to do lots of work around the house (or i hate to pay others
    to do it for me), so i have lots of tools.  my favorites are the
    cordless ones, especially the makita cordless drill.
    
    just as important as having all the right tools is having a good
    selection of hardware hanging around.  i couldn't imagine driving
    to sears to buy a screw for a particular job, as i have a good
    selection i can go to whenever i need to, and which i replenish
    when it gets low.
    
    the standard screw drivers, screws, hammer, nails, pliars, etc are
    fine for most simple emergencies, but for most planned jobs it's
    a good idea to get the proper tools and hardware in advance.  i
    bought my first propane torch when i had to replace my hot water
    tank, and have used it for lots of other plumbing things since.
    
    plan to do all the things you can yourself, buy the proper tools,
    and eventually you'll have all the tools a homeowner should.
    
    bs

    When I first became a home owner - many moons ago - I used the
    following pilosophy - when I had a job that needed doing I would
    buy the best tools I could afford to do the job in hand. I kind
    of bought them out of the money I saved doing it myself. Over the
    years this builds up into quite a collection. I think this is better
    than buying stuff on the off chance you might need it someday. You
    can buy screws and stuff as the opportunity arises in large quantities.
    
    rod

    
    
    As so aptly stated in the previous notes, a little common sense
    in choosing the "level" of tool you buy is essential. It makes no
    sense to buy a $500 chain saw to trim the branches on an apple tree
    in the front yard. on the other hand it is just as dumb to try to
    cut 3/5 cords of firewood a year with a hand saw. 
    
    the following list seems to me to be the absolute basic tool box
    for a home handyman(woman). Pick the brand to suit your pocket book
    **AND*** the amount/type of use or abuse you forsee.
    
    small tack hammer
    16/18 oz. claw hammer
    three sizes each straight/phillips head screw driver
    6 inch and 8 or 10 inch adjustible wrench
    pipe wrench
    set of box/open end wrenches from 1/8 in to 3/4 in.
    standard pliers
    6 in and 10 in channnel lock pliers
    6 in and 8/10 in vise grip
    hack saw
    rip/cross cut saw or 7 1/4 in circular saw with at least one each
    cross cut, plywood and rip blade
    saber saw with an assortment of blades
    square, level, tape measure 
    hand drill (cord or cordless) assortment of bits from 1/16 to 1/2
    1" and 2" putty knife
    assortment of tacks, nails, screws, hooks, etc.
    
    This list should be enough to handle most of the basic DIY small
    projects of the put together a picnic table and hang a curtain hook
    variety. I know I left out a lot of the things like chissels, torches,
    belt sanders and the other fancy things I'm sure someone will add
    them or more importantly you will find out when you need it. 
    I'll let someone else tell you about the yard tools. 
    Have fun!! and welcome to the world of DYI and never a dull moment.
    
    

    I agree with the fact that you could list Zillions of tools that
    could be considered essential, it all depends whether or not your
    into gardening, construction, etc.,. On the other hand, I consider
    the following to be a basic, everyone should have one, list: 
    YARD; long handle pointed digging shovel, leaf rake, steel soil
    rake, snow shovel and a wheel barrel
    Mechanical; electric 3/8" drill and bits, set of open end wrenchs,
    pliers both needle nose & regular, complete set of screwdrivers,
    extension cord and work light, 3/8" rachet set, hacksaw,and a box
    to keep all this stuff in.
    Carpentry; wood bits for the mentioned drill, hammer 16 oz. claw,
    combination hand saw or power skill saw, level, tape measure 16',
    combination square,set of wood chisels, key hole saw, nail apon,
    lots of pencils.
    
    I'd also like to add a work bench with a good vise if room allows.
    
     I'm sure I forgot alot of other stuff that someone else might help
    you with, but at least it's a starting point.
    
    Oh Yeh! 6' step ladder, ................
    

    I basically agree with the preceding replies.  It sort of depends
    on how much you want to do.  For an absolutely minimal list I'd
    have:
    
    16 oz claw hammer
    #2 Phillips and and three assorted-size flat-blade screwdrivers
    needle-nose pliers
    regular pliers, with a wire cutter
    "Yankee" push drill ( I absolutely ***LOVE*** this tool.  I think
    	it's one of the greatest inventions ever.)
    Small and large adjustable "Crescent" wrenches
    12' tape measure
    
    Those will let you do basic stuff.  From there...well, what do you
    want to do.  I've got a 1200-pound milling machine in the basement
    and a 400-pound metal turning lathe, and although they're mostly
    for personal entertainment I occasionally find them handy for home
    repairs.  Other people have Delta Unisaws and 8" jointers.  At some
    point I managed to aquire a 10-ton house jack, and that came in
    handy a while ago when the back door started binding.  This spring
    I could have used a heavy-duty 100'plumber's snake.  
    
    I'd agree with the idea of buying good tools, as you need them.
    The "good" part is important if you're at all serious about the
    home-repair stuff.  Otherwise you will, sure as fate, end up buying
    a cheap one, THEN buying a good one when the cheap one breaks.
    And buy them as you need them.  Some things it makes more sense
    to rent, like that 100' plumber's snake I needed.  In 12+ years
    of home ownership it's the first time I've needed one.  If I
    was needing one a couple of times a year, then I'd buy one.
    
    Also, keep in mind that you don't have to spend scads of money,
    and spending scads of money doesn't buy the knowledge or skill
    to do the job (unless you're hiring a competent professional
    for scads of money, but that's something else again).  I've got
    an uncle who has never had very much money, and he's never had
    very fancy tools; his table saw is one of those stamped-aluminum
    el cheapo models with an 8" blade.  Most of his hand tools are
    old and worn; one of his great prizes is a really good 1/4" socket
    set from Sears.  But he can build *ANYTHING* and fix *ANYTHING*,
    while you and I are sitting around looking through the tool catalog
    figuring out what tool we need to buy to do the job.  It's nice
    to have really good tools, and just the right tool, but the main
    thing you need is the knowledge and experience to do the job right.

Something most people don't have that I consider essential (especially for
those of us in old houses) is a simple tool for diagnosing electrical
problems.  A test lamp ("circuit tester") will do, perhaps supplemented by
one of those 3-LED gizmos that tell you whether your outlet is properly
grounded.  A voltmeter is even better. 

A long-handled tool to pick up things that you've dropped into inaccessable 
places is indispensable when you need it.

Every house should have a magnet, a pair of scissors that you don't mind
damaging, and a reliable flashlight. 

I have an electronic stud sensor, and can't imagine how I ever did without 
it.  If you plan to hang any shelves or heavy pictures, get one.

I agree that having a good selection of screws, bolts, nails, and scrap
lumber around is just as important as having the tools to use on them.  Two
non-obvious items that I've learned to put in this category are picture
hanging supplies (hooks, screw eyes, wire) and rubber plumbing washers. 

We keep our full set of tools in the basement, with a small set of duplicates 
in the kitchen.  These, I guess, are truly essential, since we're not even
willing to walk down to the basement for them.  Some of them occasionally
double as cooking tools.  They are: 
    - screwdrivers (full set of 14; we got lucky one Christmas!)
    - hammer
    - pliers
    - scissors
    - socket set (again, because we wound up with two)

Don't just merge several noters' lists of essential tools and run out and
buy 'em all, unless you're independently wealthy.  For seldom-used tools,
borrowing from willing neighbors is fine, and a good source of advice and
help besides.  Yard sales are also cost-effective tool sources if you check
the tools over carefully. 

    a friend of mine likes to buy strange tools.  if they work for him
    then sometimes i'll go out and buy one...
    
    anyhow, if you're doing a lot of painting around the house he's
    got (and i'll soon have) one of the neatest tools i've ever seen
    for cleaning brushes and rollers.  it's just like a yankee screwdriver,
    axcept you put the brush in it (or the roller on it) and wail away.
    with minimal cleaning and using this thing a brush or roller gets
    very clean and dry, and it's fun to use (although inside the house
    i'd recommend spinning the brush inside a bucket).
    
    it's not essential, but if you're painting it's very useful.  he
    got it at slummerville lumber for $16.00.
    
    bs

>    the neatest tools i've ever seen for cleaning ... rollers.  

I've got a set of great tools for cleaning rollers.  A plastic bag, a freezer, 
and a wastebasket.  When I'm done painting for the day, if I'm not done with 
that color paint, I pop the roller off and stick it in a plastic bag, so I can 
just pull it out tomorrow and use it again.  If I know I'm going to want to use 
that color again, but not soon, I throw the plastic bag in the back of the 
freezer, where it will keep indefinitely until I want to paint again.  If I 
don't think I'm going to need that color again, the roller hits the wastebasket.

My wife came up with this method after one-too-many times of spending a 
half-hour trying to clean the roller and never really getting it clean, so that 
the next time you use it the roller is sort of lumpy and doesn't do as good a 
job.  The rollers only cost about $2 each, so we treat them as disposables now.

Paul

    
    
    	Additional items (usually those things used once or twice but
        your damm glad to have 'em when their needed!):
    
    
    		* chalk line		* metal/wood clamps
    		* wood glue		* plumbers helper/auger
    		* wood plane		* hand sander
    		* oil can		* hvy duty extension cord
    		* files (not drawers)   * chaulking gun
    		* paint brushes		* safety glasses/goggles
    		* bubble level		* soldering iron w/solder
    		* 25' trouble light	* saw horses
    
    
    	Note:  pay the extra cost of a "heavy duty" bulb for the
               trouble light.  Few things beat the irritation of
               hearing/seeing the bulb go dark when you've jammed
               your way under the car or behind a cabinet and tap
               the work light against an object!
    
    

    Doing it yourself includes, to my way of thinking, the best/easiest
    way to maintain your home, and that includes (yuch-phooey) cleaning.
    THE definitive book on the right tools (and equipment and cleaners)
    for that job is Don Aslett's "Is There Life After Housework?"  It's
    about eight bucks and is full of useable advice and great ideas.
    I recently special ordered mine from a local bookstore, and it's
    one of the best investments I've made.  Among other things, he suggests
    using janitorial suppliers for quality cleaning equipment, makes
    a case for 5' ladders (as opposed to shorter or taller ones), and
    talks about ways to make cleaning effective and as painless as
    possible.  (Consider this a "pointer" to a super list of
    cleaning/maintenance tools!)
    
    Sherry

    I suppose you've now noticed everybody has their own ideas on what
    is a basic toolkit.
    Probably the best advice is to get your tools as you need them.The
    only problem then is "what's the right tool for the job?" I suggest
    you use this notes file as the jobs come up and get specific advice.
    
    For example,if you plan to buy 1 wood plane go for a jack(14-15
    inch).You can do more jobs with this one plane than any other.
    
    Best of luck,and try not to bite off too much.
    
    Mike
     

    There's one exception to the one-at-a-time approach:
    
    Every year around Xmas time, Sears creates gift packages of various
    Craftsman hand tools.  (They may be available at other times as well.)
    These packages are much cheaper than the individual tools. Of course,
    you still don't want to buy tools you don't need, so don't buy them all
    just because they're cheap.  The only type of set I recommend
    universally is one of their screwdriver packages.  For the cost of the
    two or three screwdrivers you know you'll need, you'll also get the
    ones that are optional, but still nice to have.
    
    Their other package deals are much less interesting, but they're
    probably worth the price, if you know you'll use most or all of
    the items.
    
    Other companies may have similar packages.  
    
       Gary

    re .-1
    
    I'll double.
    
    And purchase them during the week AFTER christmas.  Not the week
    before.

    I basically agree with the "buy when you need" philosophy.  However,
    there are times when you need a tool in the middle of the night, or,
    worse, you buy the first one you find because of an immediate need,
    instead of being able to shop leisurely.
    
    So, I'm thinking of putting together a set of basic tools which I know
    I'll need sooner or later, and then adding to it as specific needs
    arise.  The Reader's Digest _Do-It-Yourself_Manual_ (or whatever the
    actual title is) has 3 lists for basic, more complete, and still more
    complete tool sets.  If I get a chance, I'll type in their list.
    
    Thanks for all the input so far.
    
    -pd

    I've checked keywords and indexes for this and found nothing. I
    need to pull up the floorboards in my attic so I can roll out
    insulation blankets. The problem is that the pine floorboards are
    there to stay. 85 years ago they really drove nails in hard! I've
    tried removing them with a claw hammer and a wonderbar, but it's
    nearly impossible. There are probably 150 boards to move.
    
    Is there such thing as a power nail puller? Or even a hand nail
    puller that uses some sort of lever arrangement to get the suckers
    out? If so, can you rent one?

    You should be using a nail puller instead of a wonderbar.  A nail
    puller is like a very small crowbar.  About 10" long.  You hit
    it with a hammer to get it under the nail head.  Then you can raise
    the nail up enough (less than an inch).  
    Once it's up that far, use a big crowbar.  You might need to to
    stick something under it to raise it up a little for leverage.
    If they still don't come out, get a bigger crowbar.

    A unit commonly referred to as a Cats Paw will do the trick.
    
    It's a bar about 12 inches long used in an upright position,
    the claw is fairly sharp. You place it into the  nail hole and strike
    the end of the paw with a hammer to drive in into the wood to grasp the nail
    head and push back for removal of the nail.                             
                              
                              
                              
                                 
                               
                              
                             
                              

    
    RE: .0
    
    From the sounds of it, you may have cut nails holding the floor
    down.  These are pretty hard to get out.  I would suggest as little
    banging as possible so as not to loosen any ceiling plaster.  You
    may want to try a sawzall with a nail cutting blade.  You may be
    able to get the blade in between the joist and the boards.
    
    Do you want to save the old boards for some reason?  If not them just take
    a saw (sawzall, circular ) and rip them.  Then pry up the part with
    the nails in it with crowbar.  Of course you'll have to put down
    plywood now.
    

    Phil
    
    
    P.S.  Be extremely careful that there are no live wires if you use
    the saw approach!
    

    I had  the  same  situation you do, needing to put insulation under the
    boards.  I  cut the boards with a circular saw about 3" to the right of
    every joist.  Then,  pull up on the long board pieces enough to be able
    to get a crowbar between  the  joist  and  the board.  Pry up the board
    with the crowbar.  I used the crowbar because I noticed that the top of
    the joist moved sideways slightly as I  twisted up the wood pieces, and
    I was nervous of damaging the ceiling below  If  I  were to disturb the
    joist too much.
    
    I now have a 7 foot high stack of attic boards in my basement. :^)
    
    good luck,
    
    gjd

    there is a tool that has a handle like a slide hammer and the end has
    a "pinch bar" sort of tip. What you do is position the tip over the
    nail then slide the sliding handle down to drive the tips into the wood
    then pull the whole assmebly to one side (like a cat's paw) and this 
    pulls the nail out.Real trick! Sommerville Lumber carries them and
    they cost about $40. 
    
     I amd not so good at explaining it but it's worth checking out.
    
    		Wayne

    
    The real question here is whether you intend to re-use the floor
    boards.  Can you get new plywood up there (door vs. hole in closet
    ceiling)?
    
    If this is an old house, I'd do everything possible to reduce/eliminate
    hammering.  If you cut out the old boards and pryed out the nailed
    part you could then glue down some new plywood.  No banging needed.

    
    another possibility would be to rip out a few boards in the middle
    of the attic and push/stuff the insulation under the floor between
    the floor joists. I've done this successfully in short runs of
    5 to 6 feet, could probably go longer, depends on your situation.
    
    ace
    

    .6 makes a very good point. If your house is old, and you have
    horsehair plaster, you'd likely create some cracks or big holes in the
    ceilings below if you hammer and nail the boards in place after
    insulating. I'd consider drywall screws -- 2 1/2" ought to do it. 
                          
    .7 makes reference to blown-in celluose. I'd avoid that only because
    I've heard stories about the cellulose collecting moisture. Wet
    insulation doesn't insulate, and then it does (eventually) damage 
    things like ceilings and surrounding wood. Blown-in cubed fiberglas
    would not have this problem, as fiberglas does not absorb water. 
                                                                   
    I'm sure there are discussions of this in the notes on insulation.
                                                                   
    I think you have the right idea though with using rolled insulation.
    Just make sure it has a vapor barrier.                         
                                                                   
    Joe                                                            
                                                                  

Depending on how delicate things actually are, maybe you should treat
the nails as you would treat screws w/stripped heads.

Use a good metal/wood bit and drill out the nail and when you're done
use screws to replace the wood (assuming you want to).  No banging at
all..

Scott.

    If you are insulating the attic and eventually plan to finish the
    attic, then you would want to put unfaced insulation in.  This would
    allow you to put faced insulation on the rafters of the roof when
    you refinish the attic.  At least this is my understanding.
    
    

    I'd suggest that you use some form of blown in insulation. This
    would eliminate the need to tear up the flooring, just drill a series
    of access hole to allow the nozzle to get under the floor. If you
    still want rolled insulation and you don't what to salvage the existing
    floor boards, you might consider using a 1/2 to 3/4" hole saw and
    drilling around each nail. After you have drilled each mounting
    nail the board will just lift off and you can now easily remove,
    cut, bend off the remaining nails. It's alittle more work but you
    will not do any damage to the ceiling below. 

    
    I'll go along with one of the previous notes- depends on wether you
    want to save the floorboards or not, and wether you cave the cut nails.
    
     I had an old farmouse that had a chestnut floor in the attic, and most
    of the boards were wide oak,cherry,and chestnut- some of them were over
    20"wide! Well, they were also held down with cut nails and had been
    rusting themselves into the OAK joists for about 175 yrs.
    
     I ended up getting a hacksaw blade between the joist and the plank and
    cutting off most of the nails- Later ( when I got smart), I used a
    small hole saw and simply cut a plug outr veerrryyy carefully around
    the nail. Made plugs from scraps later on, aligned the grain, gloed
    them in and made a beatiful floor in our living room.
    
     If you are not interested in saving the attic floorboards, or don't
    want all that  hassle- set up your skill saw to cut about the thickness
    of the floor boards plus 1/4", and cut parallel to the joists on both
    sides. This will leave you with a lot of short pieces good for
    firewood, and with a bunch of very short pieces still nailed to the 
    joists. Now you can put in your insulation (NO vapor barrier on the
    cielingi unless you want condesation), and put down plywood roght on
    top of the joist plus pieces of the old plans still nailed to the
    joists. Having had an old house- I got to dread the site of a hammer
    ( cracks and falling plaster)- screw the  floorboards down- for an
    attic floor, wallboard screws are adequate, come in lots of different 
    lengths, and are inexpenive- a variable speed drill and a phillips bit
    ( with several spares) is all you need.
    
    
     As far as the problem of not being able to get plywood into the attic-
    I ran into this in my "new" 4 yrold home- I simply used 3/4" CDX-
    ripped it  into 2'x8' shets- and up she went.- Yes, when I moved- I
    wasn't about to go through another 15yr project restoring an old house,
    
 
    If you want to save the floorboards and don't have the cut nails, then
    the nail puller NOT the cat's paw is the way to go- I've used both and
    the cat's paw, as far as I'm concerned is good only when you don't want
    to salvage ANYTHING.
    
      If you've got cut nails AND want to save the floorboards- get a
    Sawzall and a log blade or a couple og gross of hacksaw blades and lots
    of Ductape ( o wrap one of the blde so you can hold it and still keep
    your fingers- and be prepared for a long session ( lots of fun in a hot
    summer in an attic! I know!
    
    Good luck
    
     Dick
    
    

    	There are devices for removing screws with the heads torn off.
    They are cylinders with teeth at the end, sort of like long, small
    diameter hole saws. Use this to expose the head of the nail. Then
    use a flush wire cutter with 12 to 18 " handles to grip the nail
    head. Rock the cutter to the side and ease the nail out. This will
    avoid the banging that getting crow bars, etc under the nailhead
    cause.  - Chris

    
    	This note seems like the best place for this:
    
    	I'm building a pair of speakers, and need to cut four 7"
    	holes in 3/4" particle board.  I did two of them yester-
    	day (using a drill, a 1.5" hole saw, and a jig-saw).  I
    	would really love to get a 7" hole saw and make the job
    	100 times easier.
    
    	Does such a thing exist?
    
    	Thanks for any info.
    
    							Shawn L.
    

    Not likley.  The vibration of a hole saw that big would be unsafe for
    any hand held tools.  The power required to spin a saw blade that size
    would make for a unweildy hand drill and the cutting area may be
    pushing the safety limits for a drill press.  
    
    I have never seen a hole saw larger than the 2 inch used for door
    knobs.  I think that a jig saw would make quick work of your task.
    
    You might also try posting your request in
    DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS.  Hit keypad 7 to add it to your notebook
    

    
    Sorry Shawn, but you won't be able to find a 7" hole saw. I'd use a
    jig-saw or a router.
    
    Mike

Most sabre saws have holders in their sole plates for circle cutting
radius holders (or edge fences).  That would seem to be the easiest
way to do it.  Freehand sabre sawing for a hole that size ought to be okay
to, as the flange of the speaker or the grill will cover the edges
of the hole.

    
    	Yeah, maybe I just need to buy a sharper blade.  I don't
    	know how old the blade is that I was using, but it wasn't
    	fun cutting with it.
    
    	I was kind of wondering how safe a 7" hole saw would be,
    	and didn't think it'd be very safe at all.
    
    	Thanks for the replies.
    
    							Shawn L.
    

       I was in the Olde School House at Spaggs last week. They had some
    HUGE hole saws, I'd give them a call. 
                             Denny

     I have also seen adjustable hole saw's. I do not know how large a
    hole they will cut but it may be worth looking into.
    
    		Wayne

        	I have seen hole saws larger than 6". These are designed for
    cutting holes for recessed lights. Lenox makes them, you may want
    to check an electrical wholesaler.
    
    			Cary

Milwaukee makes hole saws up to 4.5" but thats where it ends.

-j

    
    	I got the holes cut out ... [insert sheepish grin here]
    	I used a new, sharp jig-saw blade.  Made things much easier.
    
    	Thanks for all the info/replies ... they might help some-
    	one else at some time.
    
    							Shawn L.
    

The adjustable hole saws that I've seen are supposed to be used in a drill
press, not in a hand-held drill.  They're the ones that look sort of like:

	||
	||
	||
	||		||
     ===========================
	||		||
	||		||
	||		||
	\/		\|

      pilot		adjustable
      drill		blade

re-.1
The tool you describe is called a fly cutter.

-j

    I'm considering a purchase of a (used) Hitachi pneumatic coil nailer.
    Anyone have any experience with Hitachi nailers?  Are the coils of
    nails readily available?  Would coils for a Bostitch unit fit the
    Hitachi?  Is there a rebuild kit for the Hitachi units (new seals,
    etc.) available, and if so, where?  Any pros/cons with coil nailers
    as opposed to the "in-line" variety?  Can you get galvanized and/or
    stainless steel nails?
    
    (The unit will be used to nail LOTS of decking on a complex deck I
    will be building, and also to build some 2x4 walls for the cellar.
    It handles 6d - 16d nails.)

    
    	You might need an FID card to buy the nails ... or possibly
    	a "license to carry".
    
    	8^)
    
    							Shawn L.
    

    I looked at 1111.100 and didn't see anything on general hand tools.
    
    Many years ago, Stanley handtools had a good reputation. I wonder if
    that's still the case. Could some of the noters here post
    recommendations on hand tools.
    
    Thanks,
    Gim
    

    I looked at 1111.100 and didn't see anything on general hand tools.

>>>>May I suggest you ask this in DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS? We discuss, 
rather vehemently sometimes, the merits of various tools, both power and 
hand tools, as well as uses and users.... 8^)
    
    Many years ago, Stanley handtools had a good reputation. I wonder if
    that's still the case. Could some of the noters here post
    recommendations on hand tools.
    
>>>To give you one opinion, I would say Stanley still makes good tools, and 
bad tools, and stuff that is in between. They have 2-3 grades of tools, 
professional, ???, and handyman, are two of the three grades. Professional 
is still pretty good stuff, although I would not buy most of their hand 
planes (Exception, the 60 � block plane is still good). they need a lot of 
tuning up and the castings are not as good as they could be. Now that 
comment is from a woodworker who thinks nothing of spending 2-3 hours hand 
planing boards.....if all you need is a 9" plane to flatten a few edges, 
then you can buy a Stanley, sharpen it (NO tool is shape from the factory, 
regardless of claims to the contrary) and use it and be happy. Other 
stanley tools are for construction work, ranging from coping saws to 
framing squares, and the stuff is fine. the price is right and you will 
enjoy many years of service from the stuff. 

If there are two similar items on the shelf, and one is pricier than the 
other, look long and hard at how it is used, and then buy the better 
quality if you think it is worth it. It generally will be.

    Vic

    
    I'm in the market for a cordless drill/screwdriver, and noted that this
    months CR rated a Sears circular saw as good as other models that are
    twice the price.  Any recommendations as to durable brands/models of
    cordless drills at around $100?
    
    It's likely to get heavy use.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Colin
                    

    I just saw an ad by Home Depot for a Makita 7.2 volt unit with an EXTRA
    battery for about $90. 7.2 volts is probably the minimum that you would
    want for heavy use.  Makita is definitely a good unit; many
    tradespeople use them.
    
    For the $125 range, you can probably move up to a 9.6 volt unit if you
    want more oomph (techical term).  Panasonic, Hitachi, Makita, etc are
    all top notch drills, and you'll probably be happy with any of them.  I
    own the Panasonic and love it.  It's got a great keyless chuck among
    many other nice features.  
    
    Bob

                    <<< Note 2431.31 by AKOCOA::CWALTERS >>>
                        -< recommend cordless drills? >-

>    I'm in the market for a cordless drill/screwdriver, and noted that this
>    months CR rated a Sears circular saw as good as other models that are
>    twice the price.  Any recommendations as to durable brands/models of
>    cordless drills at around $100?
    
>    It's likely to get heavy use.
    
    The last phrase is your key word....heavy use. The sears may/may not 
stand up to that. I would check back issues of Fine Woodworking and Fine 
Homebuilding for reviews of cordless drills. They have a different set of 
standards to test stuff with, and report on how stuff is really used by 
professionals. I put a lot more faith in their experts than CU. CU is good, 
but they aren't professional carpenters, IMHO.

    	Vic

    
    Thanks for the pointers - I'll chck the references in those mags.
    maybe it would be worth spending a bit more too.
    
    C.
    
    

I am plan on building a Deck next year and I would like to get a cordless
Drill/Driver to do the job. I was at Home Depot checking out the Makita 7.2V
but the salesmen indicated that I should go to a 9.6V Dewalt with a clutch and
2 battery packs for $139.95. He was even pushing the 12V harder for an extra
$20.00 (159.95). 

Dewalt is suppose to be the contractor line of the Black & Decker group but I
have not heard too much from any consumer magazines since they are kind of new
to the home market. Anybody have any comments.
 
Also for $159.95, there were Milwalkee and Makita 12V units. 

Am I over purchasing for what I plan to do considering I was only planning to
spend $100.00 and I looking at $40-$60 higher now.

Dave 
     
    

    Re: 'heavy' use
    
    Based on my own experience, strongly consider the 9.6V (or even a 12V)
    if you truly plan to use the drill heavily. If the price difference
    scares you off, consider that you'll have the tool for a number of
    years...the difference in price, spread out over a 5 or 10 yr period,
    is insignificant compared to the add'l power gained.
    
    I've got a Makita 7.2V VSR that I've been generally happy, but when I
    occasionally use it for  bigger jobs, I find it somewhat underpowered, 
    and there's nothing worse than draining your battery right in the
    middle of a job...:^(
    
    Because I have more heavy-duty jobs planned for the spring, I'm now
    also looking at upgrading to more power, so I'll keep an eye on this
    note.
    
    Re: .32
    
    Where did you find your Panasonic, and what is/was an average price?
    I'd like to find a dealer in the So.NH area so that I can check one
    out.A friend has mentined that in a recent survay compiled in a
    woodworking file on the Internet, the Panasonic came out on top,
    with Makita and DeWalt also placing highly.
    
    Thanks in advance...
    
    Freddie

I have come to the conclusion that when I buy something, I am going to get
the best I can afford.  I have a 9.6v Makita cordless, and it is very good.
I am generally not a fan of Japanese products (support America after all).
But, I have absolutely no complaints with this product.  I have done a
great deal with it, and the worst I have done is wear out a battery, which
can be recharged.

Definitely get a spare battery, and if possible the keyless chuck.  My
wife lost the key to mine early on - even though there is a key holder
on the top of the drill.

I have heard good things about the Dewalt, although I have never used any
of their product.

Just remember, once you have it, you will wonder how you ever got by without
it.  I don't think I have used the corded drill I have maybe 6 times since
getting this.

Ed..

    My personal opinion is that for building something like a deck, the 
biggest cordless drill you can afford is what you need. Driving galvanized 
screws 2-3" into pressure treated wood that is probably still wet from the 
treatment process is tough work. I can't see the 7.2Vt job handling it at 
all, and not sure how the 9.6 drill would hold up for long, either.

    	Vic

    
    re Freddie
    
    I bought my Panasonic through mail order.  I just saw an ad in Fine
    Woodworking for the 9.6 volt unit with 2 batteries for $148.  I don't
    remember the name of the dealer, but I can get it if you want.  This is
    the 1 hour charge unit.  For more $$, you can get the 15 minute charge
    unit that essentially eliminates the need for the extra battery (unless
    you fry it).
    
    I bought the Panasonic based on the evaluation in Wood Magazine and I
    have not been the slightest bit disappointed.  Since buying it, I've
    seen the model at Spags and Somerville Lumber.
    
    Re. Vic
    
    There are some significant differences in the way 9.6 volt drills have
    been designed.  The Panasonic uses gearing to change from the low speed
    to the high speed range (and then electronic control for the variable
    speeds in each range).  This combined with electronic feedback control
    produces high torque at low speeds. I've driven 5/16 x 4" lag screws
    into PT with this beast.  The control system is so good that you get very
    little warning that the battery is low.  Instead of progressively
    getting sluggish, it just stops working.
    
    Gee, I have to stop sounding like an ad for these things. 8-)
    
    Bob

    RE Decks
    
    Well, call me " out of date", but I have used the cordless screwdrivers
    so far only for hanging sheetrock. For my three decks that I have
    built, I use 20 penny hot dipped/ 16 penny hot dipped nails with
    20 oz hammers.
    
    Besides...the hammers' battery lasts longer.
    
    Marc H.

I happen to have a B&D "Professional" 9.6 V model which does have 2 gears,
variable speed, 2 batteries, metal carrying case, etc.  I use is a LOT and 
have no complaints about its operation or power.  The only item that I think
that I would want if they had it at the time I purchased the item is/was
a keyless chuck.  Price was about $140-150 and have owned for 2 years.
Completed a number of projects with this including a deck...probably the 
most productive tool I own.

Jay

	I agree about _power_.  You always need more for torque.

	The electronic control sounds pretty good.  My 9.6V Makita loses
	muscle when there's still enough charge in the NiCad to be annoying.
	Presumably the electronic control helps run the battery down.

	Has anyone already mentioned getting more than one drill?  You need
	one for pilot holes, and another for driving.  The hole driller could
	be monospeed, maybe.

	(You'll need _three_ drills: small pilot, large pilot, and drive.  
	Sometimes you can use a tapered bit instead of two pilots.  Figure 
	$400 - $500 for everything you need...)

	Also, make sure replacement batteries are easy to get.  I know only
	one store (Hammar, Nashua, N.H.) that has a batt for my old Bosch,
	and it was $40 a year ago.  Makita batts seem to be everywhere.

	Regards, Robert.

    Thanks for all the additional input - I opted for the 12V DeWalt,
    which came with an additional battery for only $150.  There
    does not seem to be much between the 12V models, so "Made in USA"
    became the deciding factor,  At least, I HOPE it's made in USA -
    doesn't actually state it on the tool!

    I would prefer an electronic clutch to the mechanical slip-'n-drag
    but I guess I'll get used to the noise.  The keyless chuck doesn't
    allow you to get close to the job so a 3"-4" screw bit is a must.

    It also has a 30day no-excuses return policy, but it got a good work
    out on the weekend hanging sheetrock, framing and re-routing some
    FHA ducting,  I don' think I'll be taking it back to the store it's
    already indispensable.

I got a DeWalt 9.6V unit about 4 months ago and I've yet to be disappointed by it
The Dual range gearbox is the best feature of the unit. It really puts out
some torque.  The keyless chuck's great too... especially if you're in the
habit of losing the key (as I am).

I got an extra battery pack and can work almost continusously (I crap out
before the drill does).

I got mine from Somerville Lumber on sale for $145 (drill, battery pack,
charger and metal case).

One little feature I thought was very handy is the ring on the handle. Attach
a cord to it and the other end to you and you can't lose the drill off
the ladder.

Chris

    I have a Makita 6095DWE, cordless drill, extra battery, fast charger.
    $139 last year at Woodworkers Warehouse. Actually they had it advt'sed
    for $149 and we showed them the add from HQ for $139 and they matched 
    the price.
    
    Love it. However, I've never built a deck with it.

    
    
    I don't believe what I'm reading...    Everybody here is spending
    $100 +   for their cordless drill/driver.    I got a wimpy (by
    this notes standards) black & decker in 1986 for some $25 and have
    had *no* trouble driving 3 inch screws, my mother borrowed it to
    tap maple trees while her makita was charging, I've built a bedroom
    and remodeled my bathroom, hung doors, lights and other fixtures,
    dissasembled/reassembled grill/headlights on cars, and only just
    in the last 2 or 3 months has it started to loose charge faster
    than "normal".   I'm looking at another to replace it, but at $125,
    $139, $149 for 'name brand' stuff that seems to be no better (remember
    above, my mom has a makita), I think I'll spend the $30 or $35 (a
    couple more times to catch up to your hundreds) and buy another black &
    decker.

    Just so as to not mislead the noter asking the original question about
    his proposed $100 drill purchase, I also have one of those $25 B&D
    drills.  And it can drive 3" screws; through 1/2" sheetrock with no
    stud behind it.  While a handy tool for dealing with sheetmetal
    assembly type stuff, it is in no way able to handle heavy duty stuff
    like decks, or 2" drywall screws, or drilling 1/2" holes through any
    normal lumber.
    
    I'm not badmouthing B&D, for a $25 tool, it met my expectations.
    
    re. 46 Unless your's is turbocharged or something, I don't think it
    will do the job the original noter wants to use it for.
    
    Bob

    Mean while I am busy buying up used corded tools for my workshop
    at pennies on the dollar from all you people that can't stand to
    have a cord on your tools.  Thanks.  

    Just finished hanging 70 sheets of sheetrock with an industrial
    corded vsr screw gun designed and optimized for the job.  What a 
    dream to use.  Cost me $20.  No battery and absolutely no lack
    of power here.  While it's a nice convenience to be cordless it's
    not always worth the extra cost.  I would encourage some of the
    less yuppy of us DYI's to explore used corded tools and save your
    money for the actual project. 

    JFK

    
    re -1
    
    Welllll, a couple of recent scenarios come to mind:
    
    (Scene - at the end of my yard, fixing the fence.)
    
      How come there's no outlet in this tree?
    
    (Scene - in the attic) 
    
      Hey why isn't this corded drill working? Oh yeah, I was
      installing power outlets wasn't I?.
    
    (Scene - Up a ladder, hanging shutters)
    
      O goody, something else to handle - an extension cord!
    
    (Scene - in the basement building the walls with circular
    saw, reciprocating saw, mitre saw etc, cables trailing everywhere)
    
      Why do I keep falling over? O bother, there goes another finger.
    
    (Scene - in the basement again)
    
      Hey why isn't this corded drill working?
      Oh yeah, I was installing power outlets! Doh!
    
    (Scene - building the new 12x16 deck)
    
      Dammit - is that as far as this extension cord reaches!
    
    Of course, being a yuppie that's all I've managed to do this
    year, but give me time and I'm pretty sure I can justify owning
    a cordless drill ;-).
    
    You'll never torque me out of it.
    
    Colin
    
    
    

    Just remember, to each his/her own.....
    
    TMW...Jim, who only owns one battery powered drill...and most of the rest
    of my tools are cordless!!!

	    I've got the ~$50.00 B&D 3/8" VSR cordless and I get lots of
	use out of it.  It is very convenient although low on the torque
	end of the spectrum.  For `real' jobs, I use my Milwaukee 3/8" VSR
	(cord type).  It has plenty of torque; enough to break your wrist!
	    The two drills together cost less than $150.00.  I already had
	the Milwaukee, anyways.  And using it, cord and all, is `not' all
	that inconvenient.
					Tim

    I put a phillips head "bit" in my 3/8 inch Sears drill (cord) when I
    want to drive sheet rock screws.
    
    I believe that if you want to spend $400 for a cordless drill..fine..
    its YOUR money. I just have other places to put my money , nowadays.
    
    Marc H.

    I too have the $25 B&D drill driver and for small jobs it does fine...
    however I tried using it when building my deck this summer and after
    20-30 minutes use it was dead...my niehgbor came over with his 
    Milwalkee cordless Drill driver 2 speed and we worked the rest of the
    day 4 hours without a problem.
    I have corded tools that are indespensible but like several replies
    have alluded to there are times when the cordless is the better tool
    for the job, or its more convieninent ...or your using one for pilots
    and the other to drive screws whatever...
    Heres a tip for you yuppy wannbes and convienience seekers alike when
    you do pop for that shiney new cordless make sure you get at least
    a two speed if not a variable speed...my father bought the 7.2v Makita
    single speed and when you use it for screws ya gotta have a firm fit
    in the screw head or your fingers or project get some interesting new
    designs on them.  As far as keyless chucks are concerned they are
    alright but I'll stick with the keyed versions just for the reason 
    that one day the larger diameter of the keyless unit will prevent me
    from getting the angle or depth I need.  JMHO
    
    
    
                   Dean

    
    	With all the projects I've done around the house (and yes,
    including work up in the attic and outside), I haven't hit a single
    situation in which my 50 foot heavy-duty extension cord didn't reach.
    Instead of buying a cordless drill, I'd put the money into buying a
    more powerful corded drill plus maybe another tool or two.  (Actually,
    I should get a 10 or 15 foot heavy-duty extension cord -- 50 feet is
    massive overkill nearly all of the time.)
    
    							-craig

>    As far as keyless chucks are concerned they are
>    alright but I'll stick with the keyed versions just for the reason 
>   that one day the larger diameter of the keyless unit will prevent me
>  from getting the angle or depth I need.  JMHO


That's a good point...never thought of it, but I know exactly what you mean.

-Jay
    
  

    
    let see if I can type fast enough so I don't get 'kicked out'
    before I'm finished this time.
    
    re. 47     No, Mines not turbocharged...   and I was driving 3 inch
    screws thru a 2" piece of hardwood (oak maybe) into some stud behind
    it.  I'll admit, it took some perserverance, but I did it - all 5 of'm
    I predrilled the hardwood (door threshold), put it in place and drove
    the screws.  the 5th one was 'helped' a little (the drill wouldn't
    turn the screw, so I turned the drill). 
    
    Think of it this way,  for your $100 are you getting twice the ..
    tool/power/guarentee/whatever ?  If not, then your probably spending
    too much.
    

    Gordon Poirier
    WMOIS::POIRIER
    EXT: 241-4758
    WMO (Westminster)
    
    Has anyone bought a FREUD biskit jointer and had great anticipation's
    of doing alot of "stuff" with it, yet, there she sits collecting dust
    (no pun intended).
    
    
    WELL, if you like to sell the jointer (including biskits and glue, 
    if you have them) I'm interested.
    
  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ************ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    
    
    I'm also in the market for a FREUD 3.25 horse plunge router. You know,
    the heavy son of _____ that should be bolted to a table, or a small
    car.
    

    
    Hay, I'm a French guy, der.  So I called the Biscuit Joiner a biskit
    jointer. You say potatoe I say potato.  
    
    Get a life!