Conference 7.286::home_work

    I'm not saying an architect isn't needed for your projects but you
    might get some good advice from your local building inspector.
    Basically if the walls you want to remove are main load bearing
    support walls you could get yourself into some trouble by removing
    them without the proper span supports. I would expect that if you
    did get an Architect involve there would be a minimum charge, even
    if it's only for advice.

    some architect may take jobs ( small ) by the hours. I've talked
    to two of them and they both would charge $50 per hour.

Excuse my ignorance, but I thought that architects are primarily expert 
at designing things, and structural engineers are primarily expert at 
determining if a design is correct.  Given .0, don't you want a structural
engineer instead of an architect?  I think they're cheaper too - I know
of one who charges a flat $45/hour.

	Larry

    Whoa, an architect is trained in structural engineering for
    uncomplicated things like houses.  Most building departments will
    accept the stamp of a licensed architect on a plan as adequate
    assurance of structural integrity.  Most architecture firms have
    consulting arrangements with structural engineering firms so they
    can check out anything they're not sure about.  Use of a separate
    structural engineer usually only happens for larger projects (office
    buildings, etc).
    

     Reply .1 is correct.  

     Contact your building inspector first.  He has the discretion to approve 
structural integrity on minor construction without requiring certification of 
the design by a structural engineer.  Also, building codes are subject to 
interpretation(e.g. what constitutes a minor addition) and it is a good idea 
to get to know your towns building inspector before any renovations.  (I know 
of one building inspector that will not approve clear span floor trusses).  

     The building inspector will tell you one of four things:  1) acceptable 
with little or no modification, 2) recommend some major changes 3) tell you that
what your doing should involve a structural engineer(and if you are lucky 
recommend one), or 4)  you can't get their from here(which will save you paying 
a couple $100 for structural engineer telling you the same thing.)

     Here are a couple of rules of thumb that apply to "typical 2 by stick 
built" houses:

	Maximum Span for ceiling joists is 12 ft plus 1 ft/minus 3 ft and is 
	dependent on species and size of the wood used and spacing of joists.  
	There are many rafter, joist and beam manuals available to give more 
	specific spans.

	All load bearing walls should be within 3 ft of the load bearing walls
	in the floor below.  Start in the basement and locate the load bearing
	walls and trace the loads from floor to floor to the roof.


Brian

DISCLAIMER:  THE ABOVE INFORMATION SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS APPROVED FOR ANY
DESIGN OR FOLLOWING THE ABOVE RECOMMENDATIONS WILL GUAREENTEE APPROVAL OF ANY
DESIGN BY A BUILDING INSPECTOR.   I STRONGLY RECOMMEND HAVING ALL DESIGNS REVIEWED BY A PRATICING 
STRUCTUAL ENGINEER.  ALL DESIGN MUST BE APPROVED BY YOUR BUILDING INSPECTOR AND 
APPROPRIATE AGENCIES.

    I believe .3 is also correct. Back in the '60s while still in the
    USN, I checked out architectural courses from U of Texas (?
    -- the one in Austin) and U of Penna (I think); anyway, they offered
    7 or 8 year resident architectural courses that included structural
    engineering. More recent (late '70s) checking (at different U's)
    turned up 4-year courses that include such barfo as urban planning, but
    NO structural engineering. Also, having read every FHB from cover to
    cover, I am amazed at how many times architects have to call in a
    structural engineer to determine if the roof will cave in. What
    this country needs is a return to the 5� cigar and another Frank
    Lloyd Wright!
    
    Joe

    Checking with your building inspector first is the best bet - the
    inspector in Shrewsbury has been a lot of help to me in planning
    and building my addition - especialy in the early stages.
    
    However, you don't need an architect's stamp on the plans for
    residential structures.  There are a lot of people out there who
    call themselves 'designers' that can do the work for you.  The plans
    for the addition cost me $400, and that included a couple of on
    site visits plus a couple (3 I think) meetings to go over the work
    and fine tune it.  An architect would have been around $3000.  
    
    This recommendation came from an architect, by the way, when I tried
    to get him to do the plans.  He said that it would be a waste of
    my money to pay him to do such a simple thing.  Yours is even simpler,
    so the same rationale holds.
    
    My designer was Ron Searles, on Rt 20 in Shrewsbury.
    

    RE: .7
    
    How does one go about locating such designers?  
    
    The phone book has a heading called "Interior Decorators and
    Designers."  These seem to be the sort of places that will tell
    you what color of very expensive drapes to buy to match your carpets.
    That type of skill doesn't seem useful for matching rooflines or
    moving walls.
    
       Gary

	Regarding architects:

	We are in the process of adding a 2nd floor to our ranch house and 
	significantly changing the first floor around.  We plan to re-do the 
	kitchen and open things up into a kitchen/great-room type of layout.  
	I had contracted with an architect last year to do the following:

	  - measure house and provide "as built" drawings
	  - do design studies of possible configurations
	  - develop construction drawings
	  - construction manage the job
	
	For this he wanted 10% of the extimated cost of the job.  He 
	estimated the job to be about $50k so his fee would be $5k.  This 
	seemed reasonable to us so we signed up with him.  By the time we 
	got to the construction drawings phase, and had obtained actual 
	extimates, we were closer to $140k!!!  I found that the architect 
	was not very praticle in many respects.  He seemed to have a hard 
	time dealing with issues like having the second floor plumbing 
	located over the first floor plumbing.  The resultant design was 
	interesting, it included a cathederal ceiling great room, and a 
	hall-way/balcony for the second floor.
	
	In any case, we were not totally happy with the final layout and 
	after much thought decided to alter the second floor to more of a 
	traditional colonial layout.  I drew up a sketch of what we wanted 
	and we went back in to see him.  After some reluctance on his part, 
	he agreed to change the layout to match my drawing.  Only catch:

	He wanted $2,000.00 to do it!!!

	$2000 to change the second floor around when all else stayed the 
	same???  I couldn't believe it.  Bottom line was that I believe he 
	saw that the addition price had gone from $50k to > 100k and he was 
	looking for any way possible to nick us for more money.
	
	I ended up re-drawing the plans my self.  Cost me ~20 hours of work 
	and $50 for having prints made from my originals.  In NJ home owners 
	are allowed by law to submit their own prints.  I had mine reviewed 
	by the building inspector and the builder and both seem to think 
	they are fine.

	For $2000 I'll spend some time in front of a drafting table.
	
	Dave

    To add to what Dave said in the previous reply, we also added a
    second floor to our ranch.  My neighbor ( a former house builder)
    warned me about architects so my wife and I did some basic layouts
    ourselves.  These were fine for getting bids and when we finally
    decided on a contractor, he had a draftsperson draw up a set of
    formal plans based on our drawings.
    
    This cost less than $200 and she made some suggestions and improvements
    that we incorporated into our design. 
    
    We are very happy with the way it has turned out.
    
    Bob

Architects have their ups and downs.  When I built my first addition awhile ago
I did my own plans.  I was happy with the way things came out, but every now and
then I'd realize where I might have done thigns better.

This go around we used an architect.  I did my own prints for the original house
and saved a couple hundred bucks there.  Then my wife and I drew up what we 
"sort of wanted" and presented it as a starting point.  The final plans were far
better then we ever could have come up on our own and we're always noticing how
lots of different angles seem to have a right kind of feel to them that we never
would have thought of ourselves.

As for keeping expenses under control, we only had basic plans drawn up - no
finish or detail work.  Periodically, we'd have the architect come over for
an hour to help where we had question or needed further guidence.

For a small job (like a room), I'd probably wouldn't bother, but for something
involving changing rooflines and structural work I feel a lot safer.

-mark

    I am trying to locate a PC based software program that can be sued
    to do home designing. I do designing as a hobby and currently use
    the old paper, pencil and eraser method. Life would sure be easier
    if I could find one. I have been told that one exists for the Rainbow.
    If so that would be great. If not any PC will do.
    
    Any help?
    

    
    >I am trying to locate a PC based software program that can be sued
    >to do home designing. ...
    
    	Its probably easier to find a software package that already does
    this rather than trying to sue a software vendor into adding this
    functionality!  :-) :-)
    
    								-c

	I've been using GENERIC CADD Level 3 to do the floor plans for
	my house and the new addition. It's made life real easy when it
	comes to makeing changes to things. The version I have runs on	
	an IBM-PC (VAXmate). The mailorder price of it runs around $125,
	and I've seen it in software stores around So. New Hampshire for
	about $190.

				-- Stan

	A package called "AUTOCAD" by Auto-desk, Calif. makes a 
	resonablly software product that is being used by some
	of the Technical High Schools.... There bells-n-whistle
	canned demo is on house design.  Have you tried looking
	in BIT magazine?   Please post your findings.

    I haven't used them, but there are CAD programs for the Macintosh,
    too.  I'm pretty sure I've seen ads for one that is specifically
    for architects/interior designers that includes the sort of clip
    art that those people would normally buy Chartpak for.  Check the
    Mac magazines like Macuser and Macworld.
    
    Sherry

     I posed a similar question in the IBMPC Notesfile a week ago, and
     was pointed to this month's issue of "Personal Computing".

     I bought a copy last night, and it has a wealth of information.
     In the low cost (ie, under a couple of hundred dollars), the most
     full-featured package looks like Generic CADD and TurboCAD.
     TurboCAD looks like more comes bundled in the base package ($99 vs
     $149 for Generic CADD).  Both have architectural libraries available.

     Others in the price range include Autosketch (from the makers of 
     AutoCAD) for $79 (looks fairly limited), EasyCAD2 for $170, which
     features look comparable to Genric CADD and TurboCAD, MATCCAD
     for $95, which also looks more limited.

     -Gary

	Do any of these PC based system have the capability of
	producing cost effective hard copies, (plots) suitable
	to pass down to the various sub-contractors?  How about
	to a useful scale/size?

There is also a company called Abracadata that makes an architectural 
package, a floorplanning package, and a landscaping package (each 
<<$100) that run on Apple II's. I've never seen them in person, but 
reviews of them are positive.

John H.

	Generic CADD will deliver hardcopy output to a plotter (doesn't
	everyone have a plotter for E size paper hanging around? 8>)  )
	or there is a little program called DOTPLOT which will deliver
	output to a dot-matrix printer. It will print in any scale you
	desire. I've been handing 1/8" scale floor plans to the
	contractors as they come in to give me estimates. I took 1/2" scale
	plans of the kitchen area when we went shopping for kitchen cabinets.
	It sure makes explaining things a lot easier !!

					-- Stan

I had been doing facility design and plant layout in a previous (pre DEC) life and have
touched just about every type of CAD program from a high end 60,000 system used
to design the new Statue of Liberty down to the lowest and simplest PC CAD system
around. If it architecture you want to focus on my best bet (especially if going into
business) if to go with a package called CADVANCE from Calcomp (the plotter people).
This by far had functionality that acted and thought like an architect. It also had a great
library of objects like windows, doors, kitchen and bath items and ofiice and industrial 
equipment stuff, full elec, hvac and landscape . Autocad is also very good and perhaps 
a better choice if looking at mechanical design also (although CADVANCE can and is
used for mechanics also). They both run about $2000-2500 for the full system
functions. The MAC has several good packages for about $1000, and the speed and 
graphics capabilitiies are easier to work with than a PC (my opinion). Alot of the 
inexpensive packages can be used effectively but usually lack the speed and editing 
and support found in the bigger names.  

Hope this helps

ken

    I have used Autocad on the Rainbow for structural design drawings.
    (What the building inspector calls "framing drawings".
    It is fine for this sort of stuff.  When the files got large and
    the machine became slow, I moved the files over to a Microvax
    workstation and continued.  Since I had an older version of Autocad
    on the Rainbow, I was not able to move the Microvax files  back
    to the Rainbow. Of course performance was so much better on the
    workstation that I really did not care.
    
    Using Render, The autocad output can move back and forth between
    output devices. I print out on an LPS40 most of the time, but also
    run la75 output files to print at home for reference. On an LA75,
    the output quality is surprisingly good.
    
    I'll send you a copy of the dwgs.
    
    

    Where (or how) does one get autocad to run on the Microvax ??
    
    I assume that one must be running UIS and not DECwindows also
    

    Most of the suggestions here are for the PC family.  Any more
    suggestions or opinions on Macintosh software for design?
    
       Gary

    AutoCAD can be ordered through the SDC.  For a uVAX II GPX the order
    number is QB-0CEAQ-V5.  This is release 9 software on a TK50.
    
    Dan

         Does any one using AutoCad or similar software for an IBM XT
    or compatable, know what the byte requirements are to run these
    programs.  I'm thinking about getting a Laptop to take on site with
    me, and I want to make sure it's possible to run a CAD program on
    it.
         The Laptop has two 3 1/2" disk drives with 720k each, and built
    in 640k RAM. The clock is at 8MHz.  Is this enough, or do I need
    to get a computer with a hard drive.
          I don't know much about computers or software, so any inputs
    would be greatly apprieciated.
    
              Jerry
    
                                                                             

    Why don't you post your request in NAC::IBMPC, which deals with
    hardware and software issues.

    	Since CAD systems use objects rather than bit-mapping, their files
    are smaller than you may expect. A complicated plan drawing, with
    notes, dimensions, electrical symbols and wiring, etc. was less than
    150K for file size. (Drafix program, don't know about AutoCad).
    	My own drawings for my addition were under 80K max. Watch the
    cross-hatching. That can take up more file size than the objects!
    	- Chris

      re .16-
     Thanks for the info.  That's what I wanted to hear.
    What is cross-hatching?
    

    	Cross hatching is the lines you put inside an object's perimeter
    to indicate either a cross section, or to differentiate one piece or
    material from another. ie you might put 5 to 20   45 degree lines within
    a outline of a gismo to show it's not part of the doo-hicky that rests
    against it. (gaaah - we need graphics !!) - Chris

                    <<< Note 3239.14 by ROULET::COLLETON >>>
                        -< how much memory is needed? >-

         Does any one using AutoCad or similar software for an IBM XT
    or compatable, know what the byte requirements are to run these
    programs.  I'm thinking about getting a Laptop to take on site with
    me, and I want to make sure it's possible to run a CAD program on
    it.
         The Laptop has two 3 1/2" disk drives with 720k each, and built
    in 640k RAM. The clock is at 8MHz.  Is this enough, or do I need
    to get a computer with a hard drive.
          I don't know much about computers or software, so any inputs
    would be greatly apprieciated.
    
              Jerry
    
>Autocad just came out for MSDOS and OS2.  It will only run on a 286 or 386
>class system, as the graphics are CPU intensive and you need a CPU with
>enough horsepower to drive things.  Hard drive is also required.  There is
>a similar program, much cheaper, called DANCAD3D, which I've seen at 
>computer shows.  DANCAD3D will run on an 8080 based system.
>
>/Joe                                                                             

    re: Autocad
    
    It's a great program, but with a list price over $3K it's a bit much
    for a home computer.  Some of us are lucky enough to have it available
    at work (the Vaxstation model is quite nice), but I still think I'd
    have an architect do my plans for me...
    
    Memory?  The normal PeeCee version wants to own your machine and have
    lots of free memory (around 500K?) but the '386 version uses Extended
    memory.  It needs about 2M of extended and 200K of base memory.  It
    also swaps to a disk file when it runs out of memory, and the
    executable is 1.5 meg, so you really need a hard disk.
    
    Willie
    
    

I recognize that the attached piece is really aimed at design requirements
in general, but I thought that the folks here would appreciate it anyway.

					Steve

<forwards removed>

My boss gave me this to read after getting a particularly fuzzy user
specification for a system change.  There is no author attribution or
source noted.  It was just a photocopy...
 
Dear Mr. Architect,
 
Please design and build me a house.  I am not quite sure of what I need,
so you should use your discretion.
 
My house should have between two and forty-five bedrooms.  Just make
sure the plans are such that bedrooms can be easily added or deleted.
When you bring the blueprints to me, I will make the final decision of
what I want.  Also bring me the cost breakdown for each configuration so
that I can arbitrarily pick one.
 
Keep in mind that the house I ultimately chose must cost less than the
one I am currently living in.  Make sure, however, that you correct all
the deficiencies that currently exist in my house (the floor of my
kitchen vibrates when I walk across it, and the walls don't have nearly
enough insulation in them).
 
Also keep in mind as you design this house that I wish to keep yearly
maintenance cost as low as possible.  This should mean the incorporation
of extra-cost features like aluminum or vinyl siding.  If you chose not
to specify aluminum, be prepared to explain in detail.
 
Please take care that modern design practices and the latest materials
are used in construction of the house.  The house should be really nice.
However, be alerted that the kitchen should be designed to accommodate
among other things, my 1952 Gibson refrigerator.
 
To assure that you are building the correct house for our family, make
sure that you contact each of the children and also the in-laws.  My
mother-in-law will have very strong feelings about how the house ought
to be designed since she visits with us at least once a year.  Make sure
that you weigh all these options carefully and make the right decision.
I, however, retain the right to override any decision you come up with.
 
Please don't bother me with small details right now.  Your job is to
develop the overall plans for this house.  Get the big picture.  It is
not appropriate at this time to be choosing the color of the carpet.
However, keep in mind that my wife likes green.
 
Also do not worry at this time about acquiring resources to build this
house.  Your first priority is to develop detailed plans and
specifications.  However, once I accept these plans, I will expect to
have the house under roof within 48 hours.
 
While you are designing this house specifically for me, keep in mind
that sooner or later I will have to sell this house.  It should have
appeal to potential buyers.  Please make sure that before you finalize
the plans, there is a consensus of the population in my area that they
like the features this house has.
 
You are advised to run up and look at my neighbor's house he had
constructed last year.  We like it a great deal.  It has many features
that we would like to have in our new home, particularly the 75-foot
swimming pool.  With careful engineering I believe that you can design
this into our new house without impacting the construction cost.
 
Please prepare a complete set of blueprints.  It is not necessary at
this time to do the real design since these blueprints will be used only
for construction bids.  Please be advised however, that any increase of
cost in the future as a result of design changes will result in you
getting your hands slapped.
 
You must be thrilled to be working on such an interesting project such
as this.  To be able to use new kinds of construction and to be given
such freedom in your designs is something that doesn't happen very
often.  Contact me as rapidly as possible with your design ideas.
I am enthusiastic about seeing what you can come up with.
 
P.S.  My wife has just told me that she disagrees with many on the
      instructions I've given you in this letter.  As architect it is
      your responsibility to resolve these issues.  I have tried in the
      past and have been unable to accomplish this.  If you can't handle
      this, I'll have to look for a new architect.
 
P.P.S.  Perhaps what I need is not a house at all, but a travel trailer.
        Please  advise me as early as possible if that is the case.

  ... and that's why they call it "architecture" ...

       Broderbund Software has recently introduced "3D Home Architect,"
     price ~$60.
     
     From the sales literature:
     
          "With 3D Home Architect, it's remarkably easy to create
          professional-looking floorplans, complete with realistic 3D
          views..."
          
          "To help you get started, 3D Home Architect includes 50
          professionally-designed plans--for entire houses, kitchens,
          bathrooms, and additions.  You can also start from scratch to
          create completely new designs."
          
          "Interactive 3D Editing.  Instantly changes your 2D floorplan
          when you make a change in 3D, and vice versa.  Choose
          different camera angles..."
          
          "Materials List..."
          
          "...automatically labels dimensions and calculates areas."
          
          etc.
          
     Can anyone comment on this or similar software (experience,
     reviews, etc.)?
     
     Thanks.
     
     Larry
     
               Broderbund Software
               500 Redwood Blvd.
               Novato, CA  94948
               415-382-4400

    There is a discussion on this in the IBM PC Shareware conference (Note
    2382.*)  I'm also interested in buying it.  I did buy the Expert (non 
    windows version) and it was trash.   The windows version may be better, 
    but I think you get what you pay for and the price is 9.95$ The one you 
    mentioned in .0 was the package that I looked at and nearly bought, but 
    I'd really like to hear from others that have it before dropping the 
    $49 bucks for it. Oh yeah, Sam's has it for $49 - I think the next best 
    price at all the computer shos (ie Egg Head, Comp USA etc) was $60.  
    I liked the materials list feature that is comes with!
    
        
    -Brian
    

    
    I use the Key3D and Key Home Design from Keysoft which are about $20
    each.  The home design is on CD-ROM with hundreds of design ideas and
    audiovisual tours around model homes.  It has a 2-D planner with symbol
    libraries for doors, windows fittings etc, although these are pretty
    limited.  You can easily create your own libraries.
    
    The Home design software allows you to export 2D plans to KEY3D
    and add the third dimension.  Has all the common features such as
    rendering, rotation, lighting but unfortunately only runs under DOS
    (Home Design runs under Windows)
    
    The main drawback is the lack of a materials list feature, but there's
    a workaround in that you have 8 layers and can assign different
    materials to each layer, so it's easier to manually calculate.
    
    The documentation is bad, but a couple of hours is all it takes to 
    discover how the features work.  Not bad for under $45
    
    Colin
    

	I'm starting to plan a fairly substantial deck addition for next Spring.  It will involve a bi-level deck 
built in deck seating, a spa built-in lighting and whatever else I think of between now and then. Has anyone used
any of the deck design software packages?   If so , was it useful?  Flexible enough for what you wanted?

George

    George
    
    My wife and I just went to HQ and had them draw up the design for our
    deck.  They did it and it also spit out the materials list.  I used it
    and found that there was little excess at the end and the deck is just
    great.  It was also free which to me, made this even better.
    
    Brian