Conference 7.286::home_work

    	The report that I heard on NPR last night stated that all toilets
    installed in MA after March of 1989 will have to use 1.6 gallons or less
    of water per flush.  Personally I think it is a good idea as long
    as the toilet does the job completely.  The head of the Mass Water
    Resource Authority (MWRA) was quoted as saying that each new toilet
    will save 19,000-80,000 gallons per year, or $20-$80 at current
    Boston water prices.  With the water & sewer price increases due
    with the harbor clean up effort, the water efficient toilets might
    not only be good for the environment, but also for your pocketbook.
    It was nice to see that the Plumbers Union did not create problems
    with the bill.
        	I've been following the events for two reasons.  First I'm an
    MDC (MWRA) water customer and I'm scheduled for a 60% rate increase
    this June.  Second, I'm in the market for a toilet wa part of my
    bathroom addition. 
    	Does anyone have first hand experience with  1.6 gallon toilets?
    The report last night stated that they are quite common in Europe.
    Do the standard manufactures like American Standard, Kohler and    
    Eljer make these models?  How much more expensive are they?  Do
    they come in French Vanilla :^)  ?
    
    					=Ralph=    
                                                                       

    
    
    Ralph,
    
    You may be in luck on the subject of low water flushers.
    
    While researching alternatives to septic fields (Note 2064), I found
    an outfit just down Rt. 62 in Concord (the old Mill building by
    a Citgo) named Water Conservation Systems.
    
    This place has more commodes than you'd care to shake a _____ at.
    
    Electric ones using no water (for cabins and such), a nifty little
    one from Japan that uses foam and a quart of water, and some nice
    ceramic ones from Ifo in Sweden. The Ifo's use 1 to 1.5 gallons
    per flush and seem reasonable in price. $220 without the seat and
    lid.  The waterless toilets range in price up to $3,800.
    
    Colors or rather colours offered for the more traditional ceramics
    stools in addition to white are "Bahama Beige",pink,topaz,"Lake
    Green","polar Blue", and a lite grey.
    
    Ifo also has a complete line of other fixtures, pedestl sinks,tubs,
    shower trays and bidets.
    
    If you're interested, the guys name is Dan Bruno. ph:617-369-3951
    in Mass or toll free 800-462-3341.
    
    Excuse the expression, but this guy really knows his shit.  
    
    

    If you want to save $ and conserve water...
    
    I seem to recall back in the Pres. Carter days that you could buy
    some inexpensive baffles that are inserted in your toilet and cut
    the water use by a large % while still doing a good flush.
    
    Does anyone have experience with this and knowledge of where to
    obtain?

	re: .-1
	
	Even  cheaper  is  to  put  a  couple  of  bricks  in  the  tank.
	Anything to take  up volume will work so long as it dosen't float
	or break down under water.

I think the only problem with reducing the amount of water/flush with a standard
toilet is you might not get as complete a flush.  I assume the low water toilets
must use some other mechanism to make them effective with reduced water.

Another indirectly related topic is that if one could get these low volume
toilets, what will they list for (as opposed to getting them on sale).  For
the benefit of those who have not had to usie a plumber, most will NOT install
any fixtures unless THEY provide them!  The only option is they may grant your
wish and install a fixture you provide if:

	o	you pay them more per hour
	o	accept the installation with NOT WARRANTY!

Talk about a lock on a market!

-mark

    re .4 and .5
    
    I like .4 brick idea.  I guess you can experiment (re .5) and
    add 1 brick at a time to determine optimal flush per bricks!
    
    I can hear my wife: "What are you doing with those bricks?"
    response: "Placing them in the toilet, trying to achieve
               optimal flush per brick performance"
    wife: "What?  Have you been reading that NOTES file again..."    

> ...all toilets installed in MA after March of 1989 will have to use 
> 1.6 gallons or less of water per flush.....    The head of the Mass 
> Water Resource Authority (MWRA) was quoted as saying that each new 
> toilet will save 19,000-80,000 gallons per year, 

Hmmm, let's just work that out.  Each toilet will _save_ 19,000 gallons per
year. Now at 1.6 gallons per flush that equates to 11,875 flushes per year,
or 32 flushes per day. Now at 80,000 gallons per year that's 50,000 flushes,
or 137 flushes per day.

That's what you SAVE !!  Christ, what do you use ??  What do you all suffer 
from in Massachusetts - chronic diahorroea or from those sticky sh*ts which 
_glue_ themselves to bowl and need half a dozen flushes to wash away ??   :-)


Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

    
    	The standard water use figure estimated by the Mass Water Resource
    Authority is 100-120 gallons per person per day!  The low water
    use toilets will save about 2-2.5 gallons per flush and using the
    figures it works out to 25-100 flushes per day.  Don't forget this
    also applies to public rest rooms.
    	I would be careful about using a brick.  With time the water
    breaks down the brick and the brick chunks clog up the flush mechanism.
    I've got a � gallon milk jug tucked in the corner of the toilet
    and adjusted the float such that my toilet works with 2.5 gallons.
    	Thanks for the info on the IFO toilets, I'll check it out.
    
    				=Ralph=
    

    Can't you just bend the float down so it shuts off sooner?
    
    Am I missing something?
    

    re: .9
    As I understand it, if you bend the float you reduce the "head"
    (height) of the water in the tank, reducing the force of the 
    water flow coming out of the tank, which cuts down on the
    efficiency.  By putting bricks or whatever in the bottom of the
    tank, you reduce the volume of water flow at the END of the flush
    cycle, not at the beginning, so the toilet still flushes just
    about as well.
    

    On the newer plastic flush control mechanisms it's possible to control
    the level of water in the tank by sliding the float sensor up or
    down the overflow tube.  Bending the arm on the old type has the
    same effect.  No bricks needed.  The only problem on the old type
    is that bending the arm oftem breaks if off.  Of course, you then
    replace it with the new type which just slides up and down.
    
    I was in Portugal recently and stayed in an area that has a chronic
    water shortage.  The tanks on the toilets don't have the usual lever
    for flushing.  Instead there are two buttons in the top labeled
    #1 and #2.  I leave it to the reader to guess what they're for.  #1
    works like the pulse button on a blender - you get water only when
    the button is depressed.  #2 empties the entire tank.  These toilets
    were everywhere, in both old and new construction.  Since the tanks
    were heavy plastic rather than ceramic I suspect they're not that
    expensive.  The tanks were noticeably smaller than what we're
    accustomed to seeing but the #2 flush was pretty vigorous.  If they
    become available over here, they look like they'd fill the bill
    for the new regs.

    In England the "two stage flush" tanks were available a few years
    ago, and begginning to be used where water volume was a problem
    typically in septic tank installations.   The ones I remember had
    a single lever, but if you held it down longer you got the whole
    tank.  Just depressing it and then letting go gave you a short flush.
    
    Some FLAPPER VALVES have a control that alters when they close,
    limiting the amount of water without reducing the head.
    
    WRT Bricks, in the Great Drought of 1977 in Britain, the minister
    for drought advised everyone to put a brick in it.  A coupel of
    weeks and several hundred thousand blocked toilets later, they were
    advising plastic bags full of water.
    
    I would guess that weatherproof pavers are fine, but housebricks
    are not.  But a plastic bag full of wter is cheaper, is infinitely
    adjustable, and doen't crumble.
    
    BTW, I pump my owne water from a deep well.  How much does it cost
    me per gallon?
    
    	Andrew
    
    

    The classic  way to design a toilet that flushes well, but doesn't
    use much water is to put the tank almost at the ceiling. You get a
    several foot "head", so a very small tank suffices. The problem is
    that you have two seperate parts to install.

--David

    If people want to use a brick but are concerned that the brick will
    crumble, why not wrap the brick in plastic?
    

    Hello, I have a problem with a recently installed Mansfield 1.6 galllon
    toilet. It looks like the toilet has a rather high and acute bend to the
    siphon/trap in order to raise the water level in the bowl and wash it.
    On reaching the required level, all the water goes down the drain in a
    siphon effect. However, perhaps the angle of the bend is made acute to
    reduce the volume it holds (so the bowl gets more). As a result feces &
    paper get easily clogged. Moreover it's difficult to use a plunger
    since the opening is oval rather than round.
    
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    Do all 1.6 toilets have this problem? Does the Eljer Perserver work
    better.
    
    Thanks, I feel foolish to have thown out the old 3 gallon toilet. :-{
    -Weimin

Re: .15

Many water-saver toilets have this problem, according to Consumer Reports.
The Eljer was also poor in flushing performance.  Check out the CU article
from earlier this year.

			Steve