Conference 7.286::home_work

    I've been going over many old notes, discovering that there's a lot of
    information on dealing with contractors.  Unfortunately, the
    information is scattered all over creation, making it difficult
    to find, and impossible for beginners (like me) to get a sense of
    what's involved.  Very little of the information is actually indexed
    under DEALING_WITH_CONTRACTORS.
    
    I want this note to contain fundamental information for people who
    are planning to contract out major work (or even minor work) on
    their houses.  Suggestions, advice, pitfalls, sources of other
    information, etc. are all welcome.
    
    The obvious first question is, "How do you choose a contractor?",
    though I think I have that under control.  Some specific questions
    I have in mind are:
    
    	How much detail should be in the contract?  For example, would
    	it need to specify the types, quality, and sizes of lumber?
    	Would it specify brand names for fixtures, shingles, paint,
    	house-wrap, etc?  Does it need to specify galvanized nails?  And 
    	so on.
    
    	What are the forms of payment?  I've heard of cost-plus, but
    	don't know what it means.  What are the other options?
    
    	Do contracts normally specify completion dates and performance
    	penalties?
    
    	How do I insure that the work meets reasonable standards for
    	quality?  Do I need to inspect the work as it progresses?
    
    	Are there any advantages or disadvantages to contracting during
    	specific times of the year?  Specifically, is it cheaper to
    	contract for an addition to be built in the winter?  (In my
    	particular case, I get to cheat, since the foundation is already
    	there.)
    
    I hope this note becomes a valuable resource for those of us who
    are quite nervous about spending thousands of dollars for something
    that can't be returned to the store.
    
       Gary

    My favorite topic! I've dealt with a lot of contractors during the
    course of fixing up an old house. There are still surprises - I
    haven't mastered dealing with them. However, I have two very strong
    senses about dealing with them: 
    
    	o Get everything in writing - be very specific and detailed
          even though the contractor will intimidate you with things
    	  like "don't you trust me?" and "of course I'll do that,
          I always do". Don't let these types of comments sway you.
          Get it in writing!!!
    
        o Don't pay until the job is done. Usually a contractor will
          get you to pay some amount. Legally you don't have to pay
          until the job is done. I've seen a lot of my friends get
          ulcers over contractors they trusted and paid some amount
          of money to and the contractors didn't show up for weeks
          (and in some cases, never returned at all).
    
    
    The best way to locate a contractor is by word-of-mouth. The yellow
    pages doesn't always yield a good contractor.
    
    Good luck!!!
    
    Diane

I'm certainly no expert, but I do have a couple of thoughts on the matter.
My comments are mostly directed toward large, multi-specialty projects like 
additions, but when scaled down appropriately they also apply to small
potatoes like replacing a roof or building a closet.


>    	How much detail should be in the contract?  For example, would
>    	it need to specify the types, quality, and sizes of lumber?
>    	Would it specify brand names for fixtures, shingles, paint,
>    	house-wrap, etc?  Does it need to specify galvanized nails?  And 
>    	so on.

Specifying lots of details is a good idea, especially if you care about
those details.  It's my impression that specifying lots of details is not
common in residential contracting, so a given contractor may balk at your
detailed specification; that's your cue to get a new contractor, especially
(once more) if you care about those details. 

My contract with a general contractor for a fairly major addition was about
six pages, with brand names and other specs for the big items.  This was
his standard form.  I got the impression that the questions on this form
are mostly to protect the contractor.  There were many, many more details
that I cared about that didn't lend themselves to expression in this
contract, so we (after some wrangling) attached a 30-page spec I had drawn
up, calling out many more details. 

The problem is that, in the absence of specific instructions, a contractor
will use his "standard" materials, techniques, etc.  It's a good bet that
those are the lowest-cost alternatives, which isn't inherently a bad thing.
But chances are you wouldn't choose them, given an explicit choice - and if
you don't know what the defaults are, you don't have that explicit choice.  
So one purpose of your detailed spec is to prompt detailed discussions with 
your contractor.  In the face of your contractor's advice about costs and 
additional options, you'll probably change many of those details.

If you're going to live in the house during the project, don't forget 
details related to that fact.  Where may the contractors store tools and 
materials?  What bulb gardens may they not drive backhoes through?  Must 
the plumbing and electrical systems in the house be left in working 
condition every single night?

Language is a problem.  Even once you know what you want, you'll have to
express it to the contractor (and later to lots of subcontractors) that
typically aren't very flexible communicators themselves.  The more 
construction terminology you know here, the more successful you'll be.

You won't get it perfect.  You can't possibly anticipate all of the 
details.  Questions will arise during construction that never occurred to 
you, and that would have changed everything if they had.  You'll forget why
you made certain decisions, and you'll change your mind a lot.  Even with
excellent specs, constant attention, and plenty of clear thinking, parts of
the job still won't come out to your satisfaction.  Imperfections are
inevitable in any project complex enough to be worthwhile; if you can't
accept those imperfections, don't start the project. 

    
>    	What are the forms of payment?  I've heard of cost-plus, but
>    	don't know what it means.  What are the other options?

Two methods:

1. Fixed price.  The contractor quotes a price for the job, and takes the 
   risk that it might turn out to cost him more to do it.  The price 
   includes enough profit to compensate the contractor for taking that risk.

2. Cost-plus, or time-and-materials.  The contractor agrees to do whatever 
   you want, and bills you for hours worked and materials used.  The risk 
   of the job turning out to be more costly than you hoped is all yours.
   This type of bid usually means that the contractor strongly suspects 
   that hidden costs will arise during the course of the job.  It may also 
   mean that the contractor doesn't want the job, but doesn't want to 
   insult you with a "no-bid".

Payment on a fixed-price contract is typically:

 - for a small job, 50% up front, 
                    50% upon completion
 - for a large job, 30% up front, 
                    30% after foundation inspection or equivalent milestone
                    30% after rough plumbing inspection or equivalent milestone
                    10% upon completion

Holding back some or all of the "upon completion" figure until _all_ details 
are resolved is typical.

    
>    	Do contracts normally specify completion dates and performance
>    	penalties?

It's my understanding that such things are rare in residential contracting.
In commercial and industrial work, where time is money, and in civil work 
(highways etc.), where time is politics, contractors charge a substantial 
premium for their increased risk.  You're almost certainly not willing to 
pay that premium for your project.

    
>    	How do I insure that the work meets reasonable standards for
>    	quality?  Do I need to inspect the work as it progresses?

Absolutely inspect the work as it progresses, while the workers are there. 
For our addition, I took vacation time and did all the electrical work,
which gave me a reason to be onsite _all_the_time_.  Best move I ever made.
I was right there watching everything, answering questions and lending a
hand with the multi-person jobs, yet I wasn't just waiting around for
somebody to screw up - I had a reason to be there, work of my own to do on 
the site.

A good, honest contractor won't be upset or insulted by your questions 
about materials or workmanship - unless he's late for the next job, running 
over the price on your job, or it's time to go home.  Proceed gingerly at 
first.
    

>    	Are there any advantages or disadvantages to contracting during
>    	specific times of the year?  Specifically, is it cheaper to
>    	contract for an addition to be built in the winter?  (In my
>    	particular case, I get to cheat, since the foundation is already
>    	there.)

I don't think it's any cheaper.  Contractors in my neck of the woods 
(greater Maynard) are flat out year-round already.

Many types of work are affected by winter weather, slowing things down and 
making scheduling less predictable and manageable.  But I was surprised how 
little effect the weather has on most construction work; between modern 
techniques and amazing tolerance for working in poor conditions, the pros 
just keep on building.


If you read this far, I hope you find these comments useful.

    
>    	How much detail should be in the contract?  For example, would
>    	it need to specify the types, quality, and sizes of lumber?
>    	Would it specify brand names for fixtures, shingles, paint,
>    	house-wrap, etc?  Does it need to specify galvanized nails?  And 
>    	so on.
 
	I'm in the process of having a new house built and I for one
	don't believe you can put put too much detail into the contract.
	I took the contractors normal spec sheets and marked them up 
	to meet my requirements and then we both signed off on them.
	The spec sheets included for instance type of windows, heating
 	plant, a.c. plant, insulation, ... You name it I spec'd it.
   	
>    	What are the forms of payment?  I've heard of cost-plus, but
>    	don't know what it means.  What are the other options?
 
	I believe some of the earlier replies covered this but in my 
	case the contract was a fixed price excluding any extras that
	I added as construction went along. In my case I have kept these
	to a minimum because of all of the up front planning I did.
	If I could recommend anything spend the time up front and spec
	the things you want. I think this helps reduce problems later
	for both you and the contractor. My new next door neighbors
	had no end of agruements with the contractor because they kept
	changing things as contruction went along. So far <knock on
	laminate> I haven't had one problem with the contractor and I
	believe it's because of all the planning we did.
   
>    	Do contracts normally specify completion dates and performance
>   	penalties?
 
	I used a series of drop dead dates to solve this problem.
	I specified certain dates that things had to be done by and if
	the dates weren't met I walked away from the deal with all
	of my money. I had dates for him getting his construction 
	loan, starting actual contruction, completion of the house.
	BTW he was 4-6 weeks late finishing the other houses in the
	sub-development and he's two weeks ahead on my house. I talked
	to one of my new neighbors and he said he had wished he did
	something similar. As far as getting money back for not meeting
	dates I think it would be rather tough to do. Given the current
	housing market in Mass./N.H. I think walking away and taking 
	your money with you is about the best hammer you can have. 
	I don't think most contractors in this area want to carry an
        unsold house.
   
>    	How do I insure that the work meets reasonable standards for
>    	quality?  Do I need to inspect the work as it progresses?
 
	I've been by the house every day since he began construction.
	I think it's the only way to insure you're getting what you
	paid for. Remember you are playing for the show so you have
	every right to watch and insure the work meets reasonable
	standards. Be there everyday, watch, ask questions, ...
 	is my advice on how to get and keep control of the construction.
    
>    	Are there any advantages or disadvantages to contracting during
>    	specific times of the year?  Specifically, is it cheaper to
>    	contract for an addition to be built in the winter?  (In my
>    	particular case, I get to cheat, since the foundation is already
>    	there.)
 
	I believe this has been answered by an earlier reply.


 	Bon Chance and remember PLAN, PLAN, PLAN, PLAN and then maybe
	HOPE everything goes according to plan.


	-mike

    Step #1:
        	CHOOSE AN HONEST RELIABLE CONTRACTOR TO BEGIN WITH.
    		If you can do that, 90% of your problems are solved
    		before you even start.  If you don't...well, you're
    		pretty much doomed no matter what you do.
    
    Step #2:
    		Treat him (or her!) with respect and civility, assume he's 
    		doing the best he can, and be willing to bend a little to 
    		accomodate his personal problems that may come up.
    		But in return, you can therefore expect that he will
    		do little things to accomodate you, too.  If he doesn't,
    		it's time to turn down your level of respect and civility.
    		It is, however, much nicer to end a job on speaking
    		terms with your contractor than to hand over the last
    		check in frosty silence.
    
    
    Step #3
    		Try to be on-site at least part of the time?  YES, YES,
    		YES!  I've never had an opportunity to do this, but
    		you might ask the contractor to check in with you first
    		thing in the morning, to go over what he's going to
    		do for that day, then check in again at the end of the
    		day to reveiw what actually did get done.  Just remember
    		that at the end of the day he's going to be tired and
    		want to go home, so plan on taking the time on both
    		ends out of his scheduled work hours, not free "after" or
    		"before" hours.  The main thing to aim for is communication,
                to avoid surprises.  The contractor may do a great job,
    		thoroughly professional and high-quality in every way,
    		but if you wanted the door there instead of here, that 
    		door is still in the wrong place no matter how high-quality
    		it is and how well it was put in.
    

        The main thing is to get a good contractor in the first place. 
        If you trust the contractor (see Step #1), time-and-materials
        can be a good deal because you don't pay for any "what-if"
    	allowance.  The contractor will also be less likely to rush
    	the job, just to get it done.  Of course, you may end up paying
    	more if some of those "what-if" things happen, but if the 
    	"what-if" is truly significant the contractor would probably
    	balk at doing the work under a flat rate contract and you'd
    	have to renegotiate anyway.  But you've got to trust the 
    	contractor!!!  See Step #1.

    
    	I think .4, step 1 and step 2, are probably the key things
    	to remember.  You've really got to feel good about the per-
    	son you hire, and alot of times it just comes down to your
    	"gut feeling".  Even if you get a great recommendation for
    	one guy, but you get a beeter feeling for someone else, go
    	with the someone else.  Why?  One, he might not put the same
    	effort into your job as he did for the other, (one cause
    	might be outside factors) and two, if he *does* do a bad job
    	on your project, you'll be cursing the person that recom-
    	mended him to you which is more than likely a friend or
    	aquaintance.  That can put a strain on the relationship.  If
    	you make your own decision, you can only blame yourself, and
    	that makes only *one* person unhappy.
    
    	Payment?  I can understand how some contractors want some 
    	money up front for materials, but other than that, payment
    	when the job is done.  Period.  And if you can't get them to
    	agree to that, then I'd find another contractor.  Even if
    	they want money for materials, pay them when the materials
    	are *on* the job site.  Don't send money in advance.  For
    	instance, the guy that dug my well wanted $1000 up front.
    	I told him that when he showed up on my property with his
    	truck, I'd be there with the $1000 check.  I was.  I met
    	him the morning he started drilling with the money in hand.
    	Yup, I had to take some vacation time for the hours I was
    	out of work, but it was worth it.  Just be honest, and if
    	you want them to do something when they say they will, then
    	you have to be willing to do what you say, when you say you
    	will.  (that's alot of you's and you say's, eh?) 
    
    	Lastly, I give you my "golden rule".  There are many people
    	who do not agree with this, but I hold it as the ultimate
    	truth.  Do not hire, or engage in, contracts or the hiring
    	of friends, or people who you aquaint with.  I haven't met
    	anyone who had a flawless construction project, or one where
    	there was a difference of opinion on the best way to do the
    	job.  Feelings can get hurt *very* easily, and it's much 
    	easier to hurt the feelings of a stranger *if you have to*.
    	If you have a friend do work for you, and you don't like the
    	results, then you will ultimately have to chose between ending
    	the friendship, or living with a job that you don't like.  And
    	to top it all off, every time that friend comes over, you'll
    	*have* to say (while gritting your teeth and biting your tongue)
    	"Gee, *nice* job friend".  Again play it safe, get someone who
    	you won't have a problem "losing" if push comes to shove.  I
    	speak from experience.  My wife use (notice past tense "use"?)
    	to work with a girl who said her brother was "the best" dry-
    	wall guy in the business.  Well guess what.  He's not *quite*
    	the best.  I won't say anymore.
    
    

    1.  "Feelings" can't compare with seeing work a contractor has
    completed and talking wit the people he did it for.  I'd not move
    unless I personally visited with 3 references.
    
    2.  YOU MUST HAVE A CONTRACT!  It should be as specific as it can
    be in describing what's to be done, and don't forget the general
    clauses concerning workmanship, conformance to codes, etc.  (As
    a matter of fact, I'll try to post an actual contract I used as
    a reply).
    
    The contract must specify the parties, performance (what's to be done,
    referencing drawings even if their yours in pencil on 8�x11 paper),
    consideration (how much will be paid and when), and be signed and dated
    by both parties. 
    
    I agree with the rule about no up-front money until there's something
    sitting on my property to show for it, but depending on the length
    of the job you should be able to negotiate a schedule that'll protect
    you and satisfy the contractor.
    
    3.  Take time to be onsite often while work is being done.  Keep
    a diary with dates, start times, crew size, stop times, progress
    made.  Keep a section in the rear for a punch list of little things
    that you want tidied up before the final payment is made.  Be picky
    and thorough, such as checking all outlets to see they work, windows
    open/close/lock properly, all the little things that you might assume
    are OK but may find out later (too late) aren't.
    
    Pete

							   Page 1 of 4


AGREEMENT


Between Peter W. Johnson and (Contractor*Name)


SUMMARY

This agreement is between Peter W.  Johnson ("owner") and 
(Contractor*Name) ("contractor") and is intended to cover renovations 
to be performed by the contractor on the owner's house located at 61 
Gulf Street, Shrewsbury, Massachusetts.  All work will be completed 
according to the appropriate code or generally accepted standards that 
prevail throughout the trade.  Items that may have been overlooked in 
the planning stages will be the responsibility of the contractor so 
that each aspect of the job is completed to the level where all that 
remains for the owner to do is to paint and/or wallpaper.  
The contractor will be responsible for obtaining and completing all 
permits required by law or code.


PORCH CONVERSION

The existing porch on the rear of the house will be renovated per the 
plan supplied to the contractor by the owner with the following 
changes and clarifications:

The north wall is the wall between the porch and kitchen. The south 
wall faces the swimming pool.  The west wall faces the property of 
Scott Ewing.  The east wall is opposite the west wall.

The plan calls for six (6) Andersen AP352 windows and two (2) Andersen 
AP32 windows.  These are all Perma-Shield ventilating picture windows 
with Low-E glass and screens.

A thirty-six inch Atrium door will be installed between the two 
AP352's on the west wall.  This and all new doors and windows will 
have Low-E or high-performance double-pane insulating glass.

It is the owner's intent to have a "cathedral ceiling" in the room 
with rustic-looking beams used where necessary to provide support 
required by the building code.

The ceiling in the room will be insulated to the maximum possible 
given the rafter dimensions by the owner with material specified by 
the owner and supplied by the contractor.  This must include a ridge 
vent.

							   Page 2 of 4

Windows and doors between the kitchen and the porch will be removed 
and the remaining openings will be finished to complement the rest of 
the new room.

Southern yellow pine pegged flooring will be supplied, installed, 
stained and finished in the new room by the contractor. Wainscoting 
and chair rail (in addition to normal interior finishing not including 
wallpapering and painting) will be supplied and installed to match the 
picture attached and all finish trim in the room will be supplied and 
installed by the contractor.  The owner will be responsible for 
staining and sealing the trim and wainscoting and will be given ample 
time to do so before it's all installed.

All electrical work specified in the plans or required as the job 
progresses will be supplied by the contractor.  A problem now exists 
in that the dishwasher is on the same circuit as the porch.  This will 
be corrected so that the dishwasher is on its own circuit, the new 
room has its own circuit, and the circuit that feeds the outside 
outlet and the pool will be separate.


DECK

The deck will be constructed without center supports so that an 
automobile can be stored underneath.  "Outdoor Wood" by Cox must be 
used throughout the deck.  The railings of the deck will match the 
railing on the balcony off the owner's bedroom.  The contractor will 
provide all necessary labor and materials to properly anchor deck 
supports in the ground. The owner will provide a plan showing the 
location of steps and electrical fixtures.  The light fixtures must be 
switched from inside the Atrium door mentioned above and from inside 
the kitchen door at 63 Gulf Street.


INTERIOR WORK

The south end of the living room will be renovated per the attached 
plan and will include the construction and finishing of interior 
partitions and the provision and installation of the doors indicated 
on the plan.

The contractor will finish the areas where previously-installed 
kitchen base cabinets meet the floor.

The contractor will provide and install an Atrium door leading from 
the kitchen of 63 Gulf Street to the deck.  This will replace the door 
already there.

The contractor will reverse the way the door between the hallway and 
cellar opens, will fill in the archway between the hallway and the 
living room, and will install a partition and door at the other end of 
the hallway (plan attached).

The contractor will replace the following existing doors on the first 
floor with 6-panel pine doors:  bathroom door and den door. The door 
from the hallway to the front foyer will be replaced with one that 
matches the door from the living room to the front foyer.

							   Page 3 of 4


EXTERIOR WORK

All exterior work will match the rest of the house.

Gutters will be supplied and installed on all horizontal roof edges 
that currently lack them.

							   Page 4 of 4


Start date:


Finish Date:


Total Price:


Payment Schedule:


Signatures:




Attachments:  1.  Plan of back porch
	      2.  Plan of deck
	      3.  Plan of new foyer
	      4.  Plan of interior hallway
	      5.  Wiring plan
	      6.  Vermont Castings promotional brochure showing detail 
                  of wainscoting

    One way of dealing with contractors, suggested by a friend, is that
    you go with them and pay for materials directly.  This does a number
    of things-
    
    	minimizes their 'exposure' and cash flow problems
    
    	makes sure you don't have liens from their suppliers
    
    	you see the true cost
    
    	you can make quality vs. price tradeoffs
    
    Some contractors will not be happy, but that may be an indication
    of potential problems if you can point out the 'benefits' to THEM
    and they still object.
    
    Not wanting to start on another topic, but - what about being your
    own contractor - and hiring subs?  Same principles apply and you
    don't spend the 'markup'.
    
    	-Barry-

    

Maybe the whole issue of a contract depends on where you live.  I live in a
small town and when I hired our plumber I asked him if we could draw up a 
contract since it was a MAJOR job.  He smiled and said that he hadn't done a
contract in years, but he could probably dig up a form somewhere.  My feeling is
in a small town these folks work by word of mouth.  If they screw up, the entire
town will know about he very quickly.  Having a contract adds a level of
formality that some people just aren't used to dealing with.

Anyhow, he sort of finished the rough in work over a period or 4-5 months!  It
turned out I wasn't in that much of a hurry and he did manage to get the heat
on by 30-Sep.

To make a long story short, he did excellent work and the bill was LOWER than I
thought it would be.

-mark

Make sure that the contractor you get for a job, in addition to being quality 
conscious and reliable, knows that particular job.  We had a contractor pour 
our garage floor, and he came when he said he would, and did an excellent job.
So when we needed the driveway graded, we called him.  He didn't normally do 
that, but he did have a small backhoe and a bobcat, and he agree to do it.  
Again he came when he promised.  But since he didn't normally do grading and 
driveways, he didn't know about price differences between different gravel 
yards, and we never thought to ask.  He got the stone base from a place that 
was more than twice the price of Hudson Sand and Gravel, and it wound up costing
us an extra $400 for the driveway base.  Plus since he didn't normally do that 
sort of grading, the base was too thin in one part of the driveway.

A good, reliable person is not enough.  You don't want him learning on your 
job.

A secondary lesson is: look for assumptions that you aren't even aware you are 
making.  It never crossed my mind that stone base could vary by that much in 
price between yards.  Yet if I had questioned that assumption, and asked him 
specifically what the base would cost before we started, I could have saved 
myself $400.

Paul

    We finally called a couple of contractors in, so I'd like to report
    our experiences.
    
    First, it seems likely that the sort of contractors who do additions do
    all of the weather-tightening work -- framing, roofing, siding,
    windows, skylights.  For our purposes, it seems appropriate to just let
    them subcontract out the wiring and sheetrock for the garage, leaving
    the rest of the work (garage floor, upstairs wiring, all plumbing, all
    other upstairs finish work) for us to either contract out or do
    ourselves.  The only reason we're having them subcontract out the
    wiring is so it gets done in a reasonable amount of time for us
    to use the garage, and because we don't have any leads on a good
    electrician in the area.  So, to a certain extent, we'll be our
    own general contractor, but this situation is much, much simpler
    than doing a house from scratch.
    
    I was disappointed that neither of the two contractors showed much
    initiative when it came to discussing options.  They both wanted
    to know how many windows we wanted upstairs, to which we responded
    that it depends upon the floor plan, but neither of them volunteered
    to do a floor plan or offered advice on how we could get one done.
    (I thought that was part of their job.)  Rather than offering
    suggestions or choices for particular windows, they just asked what
    type of windows we wanted, to which all we could say is "similar
    to what we have -- double hung, tilt in windows."  We know next
    to nothing about windows, so I would have thought they'd present
    us with options and brand names.  And so on.
    
    The most disturbing part was that they each wanted to know whether
    we wanted a single or double garage door.  I would have thought
    it's a given that a double door allows us to put in a beam from
    front to back, thus making construction of the second floor much
    cheaper.  They each responded as though they hadn't thought about
    that issue very much.  I can understand that they might not care
    if we chose a more expensive construction method, but I at least
    expect them to be familiar with the tradeoffs.  While they seemed
    competant and confidant in other respects, they didn't seem capable
    of rattling off knowledge of the form "It's 24 feet wide therefore
    you either need a beam here or there, with this many lally columns,
    or else you need a steel beam, or else you need some fancier method."
    I wonder whether I'm expecting too much, or just haven't found the
    right contractors.
    
    I may report back with more information, once we get the rough sketches
    and preliminary estimates from them.
    
       Gary

    Methinks you expect too much.
    
    Sounds like you got a contractor who does construction and are
    expecting him to design.  I believe that the norm is for these guys
    to come in and 'build to the print'.  This means you've got all
    these details worked out ahead of time.  The good ones will be able
    to resolve minor problems when you tell him to use a tiltin dbl
    hung window in a 18" space and the manufacturer doesn't make them
    less than 24" wide.
    
    But when you ask him to worry about (and be held responsible for)
    a beam size and placement, he's going to refer you to an architect
    or structural engineer.  If he had the knowledge and was in the
    business to do that design, he wouldn't be a 'contractor'.

    RE: .12

>        to know how many windows we wanted upstairs, to which we responded
>    that it depends upon the floor plan, but neither of them volunteered
>    to do a floor plan or offered advice on how we could get one done.
>    (I thought that was part of their job.)  Rather than offering
    
    I would think you might want a floor plan which suits *your* needs
    and life style.  If they design it, you'll get one that suits theirs.
    It sounds like you have more work (and homework) to do than you think.

Disclaimer:	I perused 1111.xx looking for a place to put something
		like this but didn't find any so here goes.  Maybe we
		need a new directory topic.  Maybe this should be in
		the HUMOR category, but I aint laughing just now....

Description:	I'd like to see a note containing any special tips
		or tricks to get what you paid for.  I'm seriously
		considering suing these people -- that is, if YOU
		CAN sue a company for having incompetent employees
		and vendors.  Can you ?

Project:	New kitchen cabinets and counter tops -- DIY installation.

Events:		3/15 Sears does kitchen plan, bids $4,500, complete.
		4/1  Hugh M. Woods copies Sears' plan $1,500 for a DIY.
		4/4  Cabinets and countertops ordered.
		4/5  Current Kitchen demolished.
		4/6  18 New cabinets and 4 counters delivered.  Get an
		     "emergency" vacation for the next day from the boss.
		4/7  Wrong cabinets discovered, I take a 200 mile round trip 
		     to HMW's warehouse to fix their screwup.  They copied
		     the plans wrong and didn't even deliver what they
		     copied.  Friday afternoon rush our in Denver aint no 
		     picnic....
		4/7  Cabinets in -- Discovered main (sink, corner, etc)
		     countertop 6 inches short @7:01 pm.  HMW closed @7.
		4/8  Contacted HMW -- they can't do anything until the 10th.
		4/9  I'm still stomping around the house mad as hell.
		4/10 (monday) HMW says "No problem you'll have the new 
		     countertop by the 14th".  Whole week is killed.
		4/14 Delivery person calls -- says the countertop is badly
		     scratched and the mitre for the corner is completely
		     bogus -- won't even deliver it to us.  Earliest fix
		     to be had on monday the 17th.
		4/17 Have escalated the situation all the way to the manager
		     (4 levels of manglement so far), he basically says take
		     a long walk on a short pier.  Haven't seen the counter
		     d'jour yet but I'm sure they'll screw it up again.

So far I estimate that these people have cost me a $1,000 in tangibles like
I missed 2 weekends of overtime,  I've been feeding a family of 5 on takeout
since the 6th, etc...  Not to mention the intangibles like the kind of hell
wifey puts you through when she has to wash dishes in tub, have her house
wrecked for 2 weeks now, etc...  Most of us have been there before...

Assuming I get the countertop today and its in good shape I'll be able to
finish the job that I planned (and would have completed) to do in a weekend.
Now I want ***REVENGE***, or maybe would like to be compensated in some way
by HMW for all their screwups...

What would you do ?  Should (can) I sue them ?  Nuke 'em ?  Can somebody
drop by Spags and pick me up an imcompetent-vendor-shredder ?

Thanks for listening...  I feel (a little) better now...

Scott.

Hey, this is America... you can sue anybody about anything you want.  Winning
is a different story.  I don't think you can win much, although the company 
might knock something off the price to keep you out of their hair.  

On the whole, you don't sound that bad off.  You ripped the design off from 
Sears, so there was no cost there, and even if you have $1,000 worth of 
incidental damages (consumer law varies from state to state, but HMW is
probably not liable for them) you're still up $2,000.  You could spend some
of that talking to a lawyer to see if you can get more back, but chances are
he'll tell you that since there was no compelling reason for you to take your
kitchen apart before you had received and inspected the new cabinets, you
are the victim of poor planning more than poor services.  And HMW
corrected all the problems that were their fault, and they sound like they
did it with reasonable dispatch and little argument.

					>>>==>PStJTT

Touche' on the poor planning -- NEVER again will I assume things are
the way I thought they would be.

You pretty much confirmed what I thought - though I disagree with the
term "ripping sears off" because they presented me with the "plans" AFTER
I told them they were crazy and weren't going to get my business.  I was
competely honest with them every step of the way and they didn't care 
because the "plans" were basically some notes and a sketch resulting from
a brainstorming session between wifey & myself & a nice lady from Sears.
I should've been clearer in the base note...

It seems however that HMW had a change of heart.  I got a call late yesterday
afternoon from "a concerned manager" and the countertop has become practically
FREE.  I can pick up the refund check anytime this week.  I was, to say the 
least, ASTONISHED.  I told him that he was the only reason that I might include 
HMW in any future projects.  My opinion of this company has increased 
enormously.

Talk about a 180...

Thanks anyway,

Scott.

PS - Paul, you can delete this topic if you like, or move it to the "dumbest
thing I ever did" or the "longest 1 hour project" or ....  Thanks - S -

    "I'm sorry we were about to deliver your X when we discovered it
    was damaged and we're going to get you a brand new one it will only
    take Y days..."
    
    95% (if not more) of the time this means:  "We f**ked up your order
    and don't have the nerve to tell you so we'll pretend it got damaged
    or in some other way shift the blame to someone else (trucker,
    supplier, etc)..."
    
    Hmmm, maybe I'll start a "what they say" vs "what they mean" note.

    Scott,

    Your wife is *only* missing her kitchen for a short time!

    My story......

    The week BEFORE T-giving, the WHOLE kitchen was gutted by
    the hubby....down to the studs.  We went to Maine for 
    BOTH T-giving and X-mas!!!  I am not 100% back in my 
    kitchen yet.....although I finally got to use it within
    the last month!!!  

    My WHOLE house has been under complete massive rennovation
    since June of 1987.  I promised that I would not clean 
    until it (the interior) was finished.  

    We had fun with our cabinets....the cabinet maker had to send
    in a re-laminator to fix the goofs in the shading and such.
    We are using no contractors or builders....

    I think one of the tennants of remodeling is to imagine that
    the worst will happen and things won't get done on schedule 
    and you will survive easier.  I burst into tears about three
    months into the game and then decided to put up a massive 
    defense mechanism of what the hey!  I get a new house (ya, we
    have only lived in it for 20 years), new appliances (my new
    fridge just got recalled for a new compressor!), new
    furniture, get to eat out, get to change and rechange what we
    want to change....and hubby gets a new wagon and tools for 
    doing it himself!  

    Reward yourself generously!

    justme....jacqui

    I'm going to hire a contractor to remodel my basement.  The job is
    pretty simple: turning my 20x30 bsmt to 2 rec+study rooms and 1 storage
    area. The house is 3 yrs old only, and the bsmt was always dry.  The
    job includes two interior walls w/ doors, insulating and sheetrocking the
    exterior ones, 2 windows, a built-in closet, suspended ceiling, and
    light fixtures.  No bathroom or carpeting (for now) and a little
    plumbing or heating.
    The notes in Keyword=basement and general contractors helped a
    lot to find reliable (at least that's what they look like) contractors
    and to determine what actually we want.  I'm now in the final stage of
    negotiating with 3 contractors, and hope to sign by the end of the week.
    I got some references from them, which I'm going to check.  Now,
    although these contractors make good impression, I know that life is
    full of surprises.  My question, then, is how do I protect myself without
    scaring the contractors away?  Since this is a small project (for them),
    if I insist on legalistic details I'm afraid that I may loose them.  I
    have some ideas in this regard, but thought I can learn from others'
    experience.  Does anyone have an example of a contract s/he made with their
    contractor (for a similar job, if possible)?  Any tips from your good
    or bad experience?
    
    Thanx in advance
    
    Shaike

If you haven't already, see note 1111.29 - DEALING_WITH_CONTRACTORS.  Most of 
the notes there are about how to recover from NOT doing what you are doing up 
front, but I'm sure you'll get some good information there.

Paul

    Can anyone out there tell me the implications of a Mechanic's Lien? (I
    could not find a note dealing specifically with this, so I started a
    new note.  If this should be moved, please feel free to do so.)
    
    To fill you in a bit...
    
    My parents are building a retirement home in Grantham, NH.  They hired
    a contractor last Spring.  For the first couple of months things went
    real well, but then this guy suddenly disappeared from the face of the
    earth.  He cleared all his equipment from my folks' house, and would
    not return numerous phone calls from my Dad.  This went on for a couple
    of weeks, and then, just as my folks we ready to contact a lawyer, he
    reappears out of the blue.  He claimed he "needed a vacation."  Well,
    okay, he's back on the job and things are going well, but starts
    getting "unreliable" again.  To make a long story short, he finally
    disappeared entirely (even his wife "claims" not to have seen him). 
    The house was not finished when he left (but close to it).  My folks
    ended up hiring a couple of people directly to finish the work (i.e.
    painter, finish carpenter).  The net of their loss was only a couple of
    thousand dollars (he had not finished his end of the bargain, but had 
    not been paid in full yet either.)  They've decided that, for now, they
    aren't going to pursue this guy.  
    
    The problem, then, comes with the people he subcontracted with, namely
    the electrician and the plumber.  Although the payments my parents have
    made to the contractor specifically covered these men's work, he (the
    contractor) has not paid them in full.  Both of these men, separately,
    have contacted my folks, and although they understand this, they have
    asked my parents to pay them.  My parents will not do this for 2
    reasons:  1) this would be essentially paying for the work twice; 2) it
    would let the contractor off the hook.  My folks told them this, but
    also told them they'd be willing to back them up, should they decide to
    pursue to contractor directly.  Both men are taking legal action
    against my folks (unless they're bluffing).  At least one mentioned a
    mechanic's lien.
    
    My folks did contact a lawyer over the phone, he didn't think they had
    anything to worry about.  He also said a mechanic's lien only prevents
    further work from being done on the home (which was finally finished
    last week).
    
    Does anyone know anything further about this type of lien?  Can other
    assets (i.e. bank accounts) be touched?  Do my
    parents have any liability towards these men?
    
    
    Any advice would be greatly appreciated by me and them!
    
    Thanx,
    Deb
    
    

    My understanding is, a mechanic's lien is filed at the registry
    of deeds with the deed to the house, stating that there is a claim
    of X dollars against the property by individual Y for work done
    that was not paid for.  The house can't be sold until the liens
    are paid off.  I may be wrong on this; I suggest your folks talk
    to a lawyer who knows about real estate law.  I don't think the
    laywer they talked to knew much about the subject.
    
    I'm not surprised that the subcontractors aren't bothering to go
    after the main contractor; it would cost them much more in legal
    fees than they'd ever be able to collect, and even if they won a
    judgement in their favor (which they eventually would, based on
    what you say), they *still* might not ever collect anything from
    the guy.  

    
    The subs are going after their easiest target (your parents). They
    know where they are and how to contact them. If they have a contract
    and show payments to the contractor then they have nothing to worry
    about. The subs are trying to get their money by scaring your parents
    into giving it to them. Have them talk to a lawyer and have the
    lawyer handle this. The subs will back down once they discover that
    your parents have gotten legal help. 
    
    Mike

    
    well, my understanding is the same as Steve's in (.1) which is that
    the lien is filed with the deed, and house can';t be sold without
    clearing the debt.  Now if your parents sue the contractor and get
    their $$ and pay the subs, make sure they check out the deeds office
    to be sure there are NO liens filed.  I just wound up paying the
    subs in a similar situation, and yes, its like paying twice for
    the work, but the subs did DO the work, and its in YOUR house, and
    they can, as I understood it file the lien or come rip their work
    out.  so....as I knew I'd never find the contractor to sue him, and
    even if i did, I'd never get a dime from him, I opted to pay the 
    subs.  Moral of the story...don't pay the prime contractor unless
    you see signed PAYMENT receipts for each of the subs.  
    
    I would suggest your folks talk with an experience 'contractor/real
    estate' lawyer.
    
    deb
    

      This is after the fact, but for future reference...
      
      It  is  common  practice  in commercial construction -- and, in my
      opinion, it should also  be  common  practice  for  anyone  --  to
      require  a "release of liens" before paying the bill.  You need to
      get a release not only from the contractor with whom you deal, but
      from  every  subcontractor  that  he  used  on you job.  (The main
      contractor should be the one to provide these.) If a lien is filed
      you can use this release to force it to be lifted.
      
      As  for this situation -- it is my understanding that your parents
      can be forced to pay for the work done on their house, even though
      it  is,  from their viewpoint, double payment.  At the extreme the
      house could be sold to pay of this debt.  On the  other  hand,  if
      your  parents  already  paid the main contractor they can sue him.
      But if he has  gone  bankrupt,  which  sounds  likely,  they  will
      probably recover little if any of the money.
      
      This  is  an  unfortunate situation.  It seems very likely that it
      will hurt your parents financially.  The *BEST* advice is to  have
      them  retain  an  attorney to protect their interests and minimize
      the loss.  I do not think that their is an "easy  way  out".   The
      applicable   law   is  intended  to  protect  subcontractors  from
      unscrupulous builders/contractors; I don't think it  will  protect
      your parents. 

      
>      This  is  an  unfortunate situation.  It seems very likely that it
>      will hurt your parents financially.  The *BEST* advice is to  have
>      them  retain  an  attorney to protect their interests and minimize
>      the loss.  I do not think that their is an "easy  way  out". 

    I have recently gone thru a problem with a contractor taking a deposit 
and not performing any work. I have chased him via the BBB, Consumer 
Affairs people and via registered letters (with an unregistered copy to the 
same address, so I know if he refuses the one, he still will get the other 
and probably read it.) Seems once I made it plain I would not give up, and 
finally gota court date for him in Housing small claims court in Worcester, 
then I suddenly gota letter from him telling me he is gonna pay within 30 
days. The threat of triple damages from me, and lack of needing a lawyer, 
made this possible and finally got me the action I need. I am going tokeep 
the court date unless I have a check in the bank, needless to say. I 
replied to him that it had to be a certified check only, I would accept 
nothing else.....

    The point is, we are not always dealing with rocket scientists in these 
cases. If you persue it, look like you know what you're doing, and keep 
after them, you may get lucky and scare the guy into paying. All bets are 
off if you are dealing with a professional sleeze, of course! The threat of 
losing more money than they gained by holding out is good leverage and can 
work in your favor. Have your parents talk to a lawyer about the law in 
your particular area and if they can recover in small claims or housing 
court. These are set up to help us little folk get some justice without 
spending an arm and a leg.

    Vic H

    My understanding of this is the same as .4, your parents can be held
    liable.
    
    My question for discussion is "why?". Why can they be held liable for
    the actions of someone else? If a restauranteur doesn't pay his
    suppliers can large surly people come to my house and demand I pay
    the tab again??? Will the disgruntled wholesalers to Filene's soon
    be at my door???
    
    Edd 

re.               <<< Note 3697.6 by WEFXEM::COTE "Bain Dramaged" >>>
>                                -< ...but why? >-

>    My question for discussion is "why?". Why can they be held liable for
>    the actions of someone else? If a restauranteur doesn't pay his
>    suppliers can large surly people come to my house and demand I pay
>    the tab again??? Will the disgruntled wholesalers to Filene's soon
>    be at my door???

The relationship is understood through the  body  of  Business  Law (most state
courts refer/defer to the Uniform Commercial Code)  that  is, in part, based on
the "way we have always done it".

For the restauranteur, as well as Filene's, there is a presumption of goods and
services  exchanging  with  "clear  title"  to the wholesaler(s) and  from  the
wholesaler(s)  to  the  retailer  (the  restaurant  or  department  store).   A
contractor is acting in your behalf as your "agent".  There  is  no presumption
of "clear title" exchange with goods and services TO hime, only THROUGH  him to
you.

Since he is acting as your agent, you are liable for his activities  associated
with the task for which he is acting in your behalf.

FWIW

    Just a couple of comments from one (me) who just went through the
    process...
    
    The lien was delivered by a Sheriff's deputy - *very* embarrassing.  It
    seems that the house we bought, and for which, at closing, we had the
    builder sign a lein waiver (saying that all liens had or would be
    paid),  wasn't fully paid for.  In particular, all of the light
    fixtures weren't paid for.
    
    We contacted an attorney who asked to see the lein waiver.  His
    suggestion was to talk with the builder, mention to him that he signed
    a lien waiver, and that, by not paying the subs, he was guilty of
    fraud.  Apparently, in SC, the amount determines whether or not it's a
    misdemeanor or a felony.  I took his advice and talked to the builder
    (who was building a house across the street.)  He was two days before
    closing on the house across the street.  I told him that he had 24
    hours to clear the debt and have the lein release or he would be
    arrested for fraud.  I also mentioned that the lawyer was seeking to
    block closing on the house across the street.
    
    He cleared the lein that day.  I should have recognized the signs
    though... he has since skipped town...  In SC, the Residential
    Homebuilders Assocation polices the contractors.  There are several of
    us that have petitioned to have his license revoked (he has 4 days left
    of the 10 days given to respond before it's an automatic suspension
    pending a review.
    
    The point ?  Get a lien waiver signed at closing, and get an attorney
    the *second* you get any kind of lein papers!
    
    Todd

    re: .7
    
    OK, understood. Let me pose another scenario. Joe Builder builds a
    house "on speculation". At or near completion, I see it and agree to
    buy it. Am I liable for his (my definition) debts? He wasn't acting
    as my agent...
    
    Edd 

    re .9
    Yes, he was acting as your agent. You just weren't a "client" during
    the whole process.
    Compare it to a contract agency. They line up jobs, often without
    bodies to fill them. Once they do, the agent/client relationship
    is real.
    
    John

re.               <<< Note 3697.9 by DCSVAX::COTE "Bain Dramaged" >>>

>    OK, understood. Let me pose another scenario. Joe Builder builds a
>    house "on speculation". At or near completion, I see it and agree to
>    buy it. Am I liable for his (my definition) debts? He wasn't acting
>    as my agent...

The builder would not be acting as your agent UNTIL you sign papers.   Once you
sign, he  becomes  your  agent.    The  subtlties  of when he entered into that
agreement vis-a-vis the incurring of debts will get lost when you start writing
checks for legal fees.

If you can wait until he is finished,  do  not  buy  until  then.   After he is
finished, buy the house from him WITH YOUR LAWYER  PARTICIPATING.  If you get a
title  search  done BEFORE you pass papers, and get title  insurance  (both  of
which YOUR lawyer will suggest you do) you will either see  the  lein (from the
search) or get the costs covered if one turns up later (title insurance).

If you just cannot wait, make sure YOUR lawyer writes up the agreement.

Good luck.

>    My question for discussion is "why?". Why can they be held liable for
>    the actions of someone else? 

      I  think  that  in my earlier reply I said something to the effect
      that the law is intended to protect the  "innocent"  subcontractor,
      rather than the, probably also innocent owner.  Other replies have
      called out various details of the law that implement this.
      
      I suspect that over time it has been primarily the contractors who
      have had an ongoing interest in this area of law.  If thats  right
      then  it is not surprising that it benefits them at the expense of
      their customers.

    How do you protect yourself against defects in workmanship which may
    not appear until some time after the job is completed? I have a friend
    who had an addition put on the back of her house (a sun room). The seam
    between the sun room and the rest of the house began leaking after a
    few months, causing considerable damage. The contractor said there was
    a clause in the contract freeing him from responsibility for any
    problems encountered after the work was done. Has anyone seen such a
    cluse? Are there standards for quality which should hold several years
    after a job is completed?
    
    -Dave

    I have not had much experience with having estimates done by a number
    of different contractors. I am curious as to what people feel is proper 
    etiquette or what a contractor expects when it comes to making a decision 
    on which estimate to go with. Do you call all the people who you decided 
    against and tell them no thanks, or do you just not call. Do contractors 
    expect a call whether you decide to go with them or not, or do they just 
    expect a call if they are chosen.
    
    I am asking becasue I am not very good at turning people down. 
    
    Bob B.
    
    

Having just built a house and turning down at least 20 contractors,  I
would say that most of them are very appreciative when you tell them
one way or the other.   
-Larry Cohen    
    

    Having dealt with many contractors in the past, most have asked to be
    called if I did not accept the estimate. With the way the economy
    is you may get a counter estimate. Give them a chance you may end
    up with an even lower estimate expected.

    As a contractor's wife, I could probably give you one contractor's
    opinion.  Definitly return a phone call either way.  I can't count the
    number of times he's waited for someone to call back and never does 
    thus, never getting a chance to discuss the reason until it's usually
    too late. 

    This is interesting. I have wondered lately what the "new etiquette"  was
    in dealing with subs.  Several years ago I subed out a complete
    house. It was amazing, how  many subs I gave a complete set of plans to
    and never got a phone call from, even to say they would not be able to
    bid.Over the phone they all seemed ancious to get plans and would 
    respond quickly. They never did. 

    re .-1
    Oh, of course. It's ok for them to stiff you, but make sure you call
    them back or you might hurt their feelings or something.

    Summary of my recent experience with contractors:
    
    Called seven.
    Got seven answering machines.
    Never heard back from four.
    Two called back, not interested.
    One returned call, estimated job, never responded to follow up calls.
    Job still not done (masonry repair).
    
    No wonder DIY lives.
    
    pbm
    

I agree that there are problems.  One time before I called half a dozen
contractors, and left messages.  Got callbacks from three of them promising to
come look at the work and make a bid.  None did.  Called two back and reminded
them, both promised to come out right away.  One did.

Just recently, I called two contractors (including the one who I finally
got to come out the last time) to bid on a much larger project.  Both
came out, and made appointments to deliver their bid to me.  The one I
had used the previous time called me and gave me the details over the phone,
saying he couldn't make it in person.  He said he would deliver a written bid,
but never did.  The other contractor showed up as promised with a written
and professional bid that was reasonably priced.  He got the job.

I did not call the other contractor back, perhaps I should have, but I feel
he didn't meet his obligations in the bid process.

				Steve

    I had the same sort of results once. Had a fist sized hole in our
    foundation, took many calls before getting a contractor to fix it.
    
    p.s.
    the whole was caused by a lightning strike, it was actually more of a
    "divot" than a hole, cuz it didn't go all the way through. The
    contractor who fixed it would not accept money for it, because the
    lightning strike was an "Act of God"

    I hope lightening blows my roof off!!
    
    Edd

	2 points:

	1-treat a person as you would like to be treated.

	2-a subcontractor that you have rejected may at some time become
	accepted if you primary guy does not come through (try to make sure
	you have a backup).  treating them properly may have future benefits.

I've looked through many notes in the DEALING_WITH_CONTRACTORS keyword list,
but none of them seem to approach the particular concern I have.  I'm sure
that our friendly moderators will let me know if I am mistaken...

I'm about to embark on a serious kitchen remodelling which will call for
over $10K in new cabinets.  I have been working with a local kitchen design
store, and am about to put down my deposit to place the order.  However,
I see small signs that hint the store may be financially troubled and I
am concerned about what would happen if they go out of business after
my cabinets have been ordered but before they are installed.  (The installation
is being handled by a separate contractor, I'm not worrying about that part
right now.)

What, if anything, can I do to protect my interests here?  I don't want to
find one day that my cabinets are in but are being claimed as store
assets by a bank.

My worrying may all be for naught, the "hints" I have seen may be completely
innocuous, but it is a sizeable chunk of cash and I want to have some
guarantee that I'll get the merchandise I've ordered.

			Steve

    find another supplier of the same product, only go to a large ,
    established dealer. If you are unable to find one, call the
    manufacturer directly, they will be more than happy to find a
    "supplier" for you.
    
    
    My .02/Bob

I don't want to do that, nor do I think I can.  This is a custom kitchen
design and the designer has put many, many hours into working with us on the
layout.  I WANT to buy from him, I just want to see if I can reduce my risk
somewhat.

				Steve

Do they take credit cards?  That's the simplest solution.

Other than that, the main way you can protect yourself is to limit the amount of
money you put down.  Certainly no more than 50%, preferably no more than 33%, 
and ideally no more than 10%.  Or you could write the check directly to the
supplier (which means you're now hoping tha the supplier is solvent).

In theory, you could set up an escrow account to be managed by someone else 
(your attorney or theirs), but that seems a little out of the ordinary.  There 
are probably many other unusual tactics you could use (e. g. require the owner
to be personally liable).  I suspect they'd all be considered insulting.

If they have your money and then declare bankruptcy, you become one of their
creditors, probably an unsecured creditor, meaning they haven't pledged any
of their property to you as security for your down payment.  You'd get to stand
in line in court to wait for your share.  A lawyer, or someone who's been
in this situation, could fill in the details, all unpleasant.

   Gary

	How much to they want down?  Give them no more than 5-10% and put it
	on a credit card.
	
	If they want more,  be blunt with them and simple way that you are
	worried about their solvency "in this economy" and don't want to 
	risk anymore of your money.  With the size of this kind of order,
	it should be a sufficient showing of good faith and still probably
	enough money so you wouldn't just want to walk away from your deposit
	and leave them holding a bunch of custom cabinets.
	
	How long will it take to get the cabinets?  Spread the payments
	out over the time period and you'll have less risk at the
	beginning.
	
	The kind of deal you get will depend on how much they trust you
	and how much they need the business.  If they are really in 
	trouble,  they probably won't let you walk away.  If they are
	seriously in trouble,  they may need your money to pay the 
	supplier in which case,  I wouldn't do business with them.
	
	Sounds like a nice kithen anyways!
	
	Garry

It might be worth pursuing the idea of paying the supplier directly for
the material, and having it shipped directly to your house (we had the
stuff shipped to our house, though we paid the store). That way, the
cabinets could never become part of the assets which would be turned
over to creditors. This might require you to pay the full wholesale
cost to the supplier up front. You'd certainly also have to pay some
part of the store's fair cut, but this latter amount would be your
risk, rather than the larger amount (and possibly the goods).

    The scenario you describe as possible with this company actually
    happened to us - we were replacing all of the windows in a house that
    we were 'recovering' - had a $500 deposit on the windows and delivery
    seemed to be taking longer than reasonable. A call to the company told
    us that they had gone belly-up THE DAY AFTER they took our deposit.

    You live and learn right?! Smallest possible deposit, and put the
    remainder in an interest bearing escrow account or some such to be
    drawn only upon acceptable delivery of the final product. Banks and
    lawyers are great with escrow accounts, and I can see no reason why the
    vendor should object since there's a good chunk of cash in the offing.

See if you can pay the cabinet maker directly.  This could be a problem because
the designer most likely, has a built-in mark up.

What are the signs of trouble you see that are making you worry?

Brian

The "signs" could easily be simple misinterpretations.  Some of the displays
have been removed from the showroom for months without replacements, some
others have "for sale" signs taped to them.  The first quote we had
received was on a special quote form, the last one was just typed and
photocopied.  

It's hard to say - the business appears to be doing wellm judging by the
number of customers coming in and projects being developed, but in their
business, no money comes in until the project actually begins, and with
today's economy, many people may be putting off kitchen remodellings.

I don't think I can pay the manufacturer directly - it's not a local
carpenter or supplier.

I prefer to think that all of my worrying is for naught, and that the
business is healthy.  But how can I find out without being rude?

I hope to be able to write here a few months from now that I've got a great
new kitchen and suggest that everyone in the area go to this business for
their kitchen remodelling.  And perhaps I will.

					Steve

     No contractor or supplier will accept a 10% deposit -- they want the
full cost of the materials covered in case _you_ go belly up or cancel out
or blow them off.  If they accept credit cards at all, they will tack on 
the 4% fee so their net is the same.

     I think an escrow account has the best chance of being acceptable to 
all parties.  How much is it going to cost to hire a lawyer to administer 
it? 

To paraphrase GB Shaw, "Would you be rude for $10,000?"

I think even Miss Manners would tell you to be upfront with the supplier.

    RE: Tacking on 4% fee so their net is the same
    
    According to American Express, this is against their policy.
    
    -al

I don't know about AmEx, but many businesses give a cash discount instead of
charging a premium for using a credit card.  The net result is the same, but
for some reason the former is permitted and the latter is prohibited.

BTW, according to a couple of businessmen I know, credit card fees (at least
for them) are in the 1�% to 2% range.

The last time I looked into fees, at a small bank, they were in the 1-6% range,
and were highly dependent on the charge mix, average number of charges, floor
limit, and so on.  The floor limit is the maximum amount that can be charged
without having to get verification.  So a large furniture store, with a good
number of high charges and verification on virtually all transactions, could
easily pay a much lower percentage than say a drug store, with many charges in
the $10-$50 range.  Now that computerized verification enables small stores
to verify most or all transactions, I can imagine that their costs may have
dropped.

   Gary

For the life of me, I don't understand why you don't just shop elsewhere if
you're concerned.  Anyway, I wouldn't do (and haven't ever done) business with
anyone who wouldn't accept payment for materials on delivery to the site (and
be sure you inspect everything before you accept the shipment with your
signature).  I'd be *very* suspicious of anyone who can't arrange delivery on
their own credit, with possibly a small amount of earnest money ($50-$100) from
you.

Verifying the health of the business and the saftey of your hard-earned money
is not being rude - it's being smart.

Pete

Re: .14

It's very unusual to find a supplier who will special order custom-made
products for you without at least a substantial deposit, if not prepaying
the entire amount in full.  Especially this sort of business, in which
just about everything is custom-made and ordered, they'd be crazy if they
didn't insist on at least enough of a deposit to cover their cost.

It's also not a case of looking up things in a catalog and ordering them -
we've worked with the designer for almost a year.  Just about everything
is being custom made to specifications by the manufacturers.  I'm not about
to pick up and start over with someone else.

			Steve

    re .15.14
    
    Are we talking about "custom made products", as in _each one
    individually made specifally for the one particular installation_ .
    
    Or is more of a couple of cabinets from supplier X, an appliance or
    2 from supplier Y, and a wall unit for supplier Z, and whala !Custom
    kitchen...
    
    The unique combination of available products, would cause me to rethink
    where I would purchase my wares. If they can _only_ be had from this
    company, and no where else, and this is exactly what you want, then
    protect your assets as much as possible.
    
    >Course, you could simply ask...........

    Having done my kitchen last summer, I think the situation is not where
    the local shop does the custom work.  The local shop orders most of the
    cabs in standard sizes.  He also can prepare specifications for the
    building of highly customized cabinets.  The cabinet mfgr. then builds to 
    order.  This is considered the "custom cabinet business".  Whether this
    qualifies it legally as "custom made", with all the specific rules that
    surround the treatment of custom ordered, I don't know.  If so, once
    the factory starts work on the cabinets, the local guy is legally bound
    to pay for them.  He is passing this on to the consumer by requiring
    enough deposit to pay for his materials.  If you buy windows from
    Marvin, the situation is similar. 
    
    I drive by the place I bought my cabinets from every day on the way to
    work.  In October, he had his 2 or 3 year old Hicube van for sale. 
    When I bought the cabinets late last spring, I didn't really think
    about what would happen if he belly'd up.  After seeing the van for
    sale, I thanked my lucky stars.  He's still in business, but if I had
    to do it again, I'd try the escrow bit.  I'm surprised that so many
    small contractors have hung in there.  I would have expected a larger
    shakeout by now (I always watch the landscape companies - that's one of
    the first things to get cut from the budget when times are lean).  
    
    I spent around 5-6K on cabinets for middle of the road quality, and I
    think it was 30% down - that's a sizable chunk of money for me.  I
    think I'd want to protect it.  
    
    Sorry for rambling on,
    
    Carl

    I just reread all the replies, and would like to state that I, too,
    would recommend the outfit that supplied my cabinets, not withstanding
    my previous reply.  AT THIS TIME I would consider NO supplier as solid. 
    The building market has been off for a fair amount of time, now.  None
    of the contractors I know are overweight at the moment.  
    
    Make up a story, and tell your cab guy about how you got burnt by some
    other supplier, and do the credit card, escrow, or some other scenario.
    
    Carl

Re: .16

By "custom made", I mean that the configurations of cabinets, materials,
patterns and sizes are specified and the manufacturer builds them to order,
with some additional "special case" work.  The countertop and a built-in
table will also be custom manufacturered (but not ordered until the
cabinets are installed, so I'm not worried about that).  Appliances are
a separate issue.

			Steve

Sigh - it turns out that my question is moot.  Due to the current banking and
real estate environment in the northeast, I can't get a home equity loan to
finance this operation, so my dreams will be put on hold for a while.

Thanks for all the advice, though.

				Steve

    Steve:
    
    I would have thought that once can get a line of credit that one can
    spend on any damn thing you want to?
    
    e.g. I have what is commonly known as a home equity loan. (it is really
    a line of credit!)
    Las Vegas would just LOVE for me to write checks against that line of
    credit
    
    
    
    				herb

Re: .21

The situation was this.  I could not get a home equity loan at all - indeed,
if I could get one, it wouldn't matter what I used it on.  What happened was
that DCU, to which I had applied, changed their rules on the amount of house
value they'd lend against.  It used to be that they'd take 80% of your house
value, subtract your first mortgage, and lend up to that amount.  (They
erroneously referred to this as "80% of equity", which it isn't.)  But
because of the real estate situation in this area (Southern NH and Eastern
Mass.), they have changed the 80% to 60%.  With this change, I no longer
qualified for any amount of loan.  I could try other banks, but their
interest rates and fees are much higher.

As it happens, I managed to get alternative financing and am going ahead
with the project.  I discussed the matter of protecting my interest with
the business owner yesterday, and he was agreeable to setting up something -
we'll be meeting to talk about it on Friday.  He did offer to show me his
latest Dun and Bradstreet report as well as a credit bureau report on his
business.  This would show me any history of paying late on accounts which
would be a clue to problems.  He insisted that he was in no danger of
going under, and I managed to get a satisfactory explanation for one of the
"trouble signs" I had noticed.

When we work out the details, I'll report here on what we ended up with.

				Steve

Oh, one more thing.  I found out that the cabinets would be shipped directly
to my house anyway, so that wasn't an issue.  Still, there would be some
exposure between the time I made the deposit and the cabinets arrived.

				Steve

>                                         ...  He did offer to show me his
>latest Dun and Bradstreet report as well as a credit bureau report on his
>business.  ...

      You  may choose to trust this person if you wish -- I'm not saying
      he is dishonest.  But these are the sort  of  documents  that  you
      should not normally receive from the business.
      
      i.e.  Dun  and Bradstreet report should come directly from Dun and
      Bradstreet.  Credit reports should come directly from  the  credit
      bureau.   Certificates  of insurance should come directly from the
      insurance company or agent.  Etc.
      
      Perhaps I'm being unnecessarily cautious, but it doesn't hurt.  If
      this business is in trouble there is a  lot  of  pressure  on  the
      owner(s).   He/they might do things that they ordinarily would not
      do. 

      BTW, I think that if you can work it out, having an escrow account
      held by a  third  party  is  the  best  and  safest  way  for  all
      concerned.

    It's good to see you've addressed your concerns.
    
    While not meaning to throw a blanket over the whole thing, let me offer
    this in a "generic" tone...
    
    D&B reports are only as good as their latest reports. Small businesses 
    usually go under fairly quickly, and a D&B is likely not to reflect it.
    
    Whilst I was in banking, 9 out of 10 times the first sign of a business
    problem would be bouncing checks. Difficult for the consumer to detect
    unfortunately...
    
    Edd

Re: .25

I'm well aware of that.  But coupled with the owner's willingness to
set up a mutually satisfactory arrangement (we discussed some sort of
escrow account), I am feeling more comfortable.  But not completely
relaxed - yet.  That won't happen until the kitchen is all done!

			Steve

  With the way many banks are cutting back on equity loans because of
  the shrinking real estate market, and the way S&Ls are cutting back on
  just about everything, it's no wonder that businesses like this poor
  fellow's are foundering. The whole thing is a chain reaction which is
  reaching critical mass. A couple of weeks ago, I drove from Merrimack
  to Bedford NH on Rt 3 (haven't driven that stretch in a couple of
  years) and by the number of boarded up businesses, you'd swear
  southern NH was in a depression.

Here's what we ended up with.  The owner provided a signed and witnessed
note in which he personally guaranteed a refund in the event that the
cabinets were not delivered within 8 weeks and the store did not refund
the deposit.  This solves the problem of not being able to go after the
store owner if the business folds.

Also, the cabinets are being delivered directly to our house anyway, so there
isn't the problem of their being seized as assets.

As it turns out, my fears have pretty much faded - I have seen a number of
other indications that convince me that his business is indeed healthy.  But
I think the precaution was worthwhile.

Death and destruction in the kitchen begins March 18.  Paper plates and
microwave food for a month - oh joy!

			Steve

    I've read all of the notes realted to DEALING_WITH_CONTRACTORS, and
    decided to ask the advice of the noters out there....:-)
    
    I am in the process of installing a new heating system in my home.  I
    live in a slab ranch, which presently has radiant hot water heat in the
    floor.  The replacement heat will be forced hot water baseboard.  Some
    messy work is involved in putting some of the plumbing into the
    conrete slab, adding a new chimney to vent the exhaust from the burner,
    etc.
    
    I have done the easy work!  i.e., the bids are all in, the decision has
    been made which contractor to go with, the decision of what equipment
    to use has been made.  NOW COMES THE HARD PART....the contract.
    
    This is the first major construction project that I am undertaking for
    my home.  (Well, the first major one that I haven't done myself!)  I
    don't know it the contract is a good one or a bad one. 
    
    If any of you could read the contract below, and comment on what I
    should be careful of, what I should try to modify, etc., PLEASE feel
    free to do so.  Any and all comments are sincerely appreciated.
    
    The contract follows.  It's about 4 pages long.  Press RETURN to
    continue.
    
    THanks
    
    David
    
    
                              INSTALLMENT CONTRACT


DATE: 2/20/91

SELLER:	ATLANTIC PETROLEUM

BUYER:  Mr. and Mrs. David Abelow
        20 Ridgefield Drive
      	Framingham, MA 01701


Seller agrees to sell and install, and Buyer agrees to buy from Seller, the 
following equipment:

      Atlantic Petroleum will install a Well McLain P368WT with Beckett burner 
      and convert the existing radiant heat to a 3-zone baseboard system.  The 
      complete job will include removal of the old equipment, installation of 
      the new equipment, 3 circulators, Hart & Cooley Metlvent model TD chimney 
      (stainless inner and outer wall), Slant Fin #30 live and dummy baseboard, 
      end caps, corners, 3/4" copper, 1/2" copper, polyplastic pipe coating (for 
      underground piping), cement, Armoflex insulation (overhead piping), (2) 
      Honeywell Chronotherm/Setback thermostats, smoke pipe, draft regulator, 
      extrol complete with w/ scoop and vent, spirovent (autopurge valve), 
      UL-Listed firomatic, misc. fittings, tees, and valves, oil line, oil 
      safety valve, setting boiler on block base, wiring, permit, labor and tax.

      					TOTAL JOB  $7754.00

      *	1 year Atlantic A+ Policy - No charge with installation
      
      *	Atlantic ESP - No charge with installation (System monitoring device)

      * Add $550.00 to job total, if, AERO AST-30 storage bank, and bronze
      	circulator, to be included


      					THIS QUOTE IS VALID
      					FOR THIRTY DAYS FROM ________



Replacement of the heating unit will be performed after asbestos has been 
removed, at Buyer's expense, by a licensed asbestos removal contractor, and 
disposed of in accordance with government regulations.  Price does not include 
asbestos removal.


      				1) Cash Sales Price   			7754.00

      				2) Downpayment        			5000.00

      				3) Principal Balance (1-2)		2754.00

      				4) Finance Charge			   0.00

      				5) Time Balance (3+4)			2754.00

      				6) Time Sale Price (2+5)		7754.00


TERMS AND CONDITIONS

                           TRUTH IN LENDING STATEMENT

ANNUAL	   |	FINANCE      |    AMOUNT     |  TOTAL OF    | TOTAL SALES PRICE
PERCENTAGE |    CHARGE       |   FINANCED    |  PAYMENTS    |
RATE       |		     |               |              |The total cost of
           |The dollar amount|The amount of  |The amount you|your purchase on 
The cost of|the credit will  |credit provided|will have paid|credit including
your credit|cost you:        |to you or on   |after you have|your downpayment
at a yearly|		     |your behalf:   |made all      |of $5000:
rate:      |		     |               |payments as   |
      	   |		     |               |scheduled:    |
      	   |		     |		     |              |
0%         |  $0             |  $2754.00     |  $2754.00    |  $7754.00
      	   |		     |		     |              |


The entire amount financed will be paid to the company.  Your payment schedule 
will be 36 payments of $76.50 due on the  ________ of each month, starting 
__________.



THIS CONTRACT IS SUBJECT TO THE CONDITIONS ON THE REVERSE SIDE, WHICH BUYER 
ACKNOWLEDGES READING PRIOR TO SIGNING THIS CONTRACT.


BUYER ACKNOWLEDGES RECEIPT OF A COMPLETED COPY OF THIS CONTRACT.


                          RETAIL INSTALLMENT CONTRACT



______________________________		Date ______________________________
      Sales Representative


______________________________		___________________________________
   Credit Manager      Date		              Buyer


      					___________________________________
      					              Buyer


Contract is subject to approval
by authorized officer of __________________________________________________
(Sales Representative is not an authorized officer.)


Approved By:_______________________________________________________________
      					Title                  Date


                               GENERAL CONDITIONS


1. WARRANTY.	Company warrants that the equipment sold will be free from 
defects in material and workmanship under normal use for a period of one year 
from the date of installation.  Company's obligation under this warranty will be 
limited to the repair or replacement, in company's sole discretion and 
judgment, of any defective parts.  Company shall under no circumstances be 
liable for incidental, consequential or special damages.  Company will not be 
liable for delays or damages caused by Act of God, strikes, material or labor 
shortages, fire, flood, accidents, abuse or misuse of the equipment, by other 
conditions not within the company's control.  In addition, a copy of any 
manufacturer's warranty of the equipment sold will be given to you.  THESE 
WARRANTIES ARE IN LIEU OF ALL OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING 
BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR 
PURPOSE.


2. TITLE TO THE EQUIPMENT.     Title to the equipment sold will be remain in the 
company until full payment by buyer of all money due to company under this 
contract.


3. DEFAULT BY BUYER.	If Buyer fails to make any payment when due, Buyer will 
pay a FINANCE CHARGE of 1 1/2 % per month (ANNUAL PERCENTAGE RATE OF 18%), or 
the maximum rate allowed by law, whichever is less, on the total past due 
amount.  In the event of a default by Buyer and company retains an attorney not 
a salaried employee of the company, Buyer will pay reasonable attorney's fees 
allowed by law, not to exceed 20% of the total amount due the Company.  (New 
Hampshire Only:  In addition to any action brought by company against Buyer, or 
brought by Buyer against company, in which the Buyer  prevails, Buyer shall be 
entitled to reasonable attorney's fees.)  The following will be deemed a default 
by Buyer:

      a) Failure to make payments when due, in which event the company may, 
         without further notice, consider the entire principal balance due and 
         payable immediately.

      b) Failure to purchase all Buyer's fuel oil requirements from company on 
         an automatic delivery basis for a period of one year from the date of 
         installation, which purchases Buyer agrees to make in further 
         consideration of this contract.

      c) Sale or transfer by Buyer of the real property at which the equipment 
         sold has been installed.

      d) Bankruptcy or insolvency of the Buyer or the making by Buyer of an 
         assignment for the benefit of creditors.


4. INSURANCE.	Company represents that worker's compensation and public 
liability insurance are carried and are applicable to the work performed under 
this contract or that company is self-insured as permitted by law.


5.  CONDITIONS OF PROPERTY.    If any material or obstacle other than ordinary 
soil or gravel is encountered in excavating for the installation or repair of 
equipment, company will immediately notify Buyer of this condition.  Buyer will 
then have the option to cancel this contract and be liable only for labor and 
materials expended through the date of notification or to authorize the extra 
work to be done and execute a modification agreement disclosing the cost of the 
extra work.  Buyer agrees that the boiler, including gas passages, breeching and 
chimney will be clean, in good condition, free from obstruction, of legal size 
and construction, and with no other openings other than for boilers mentioned.


6.  PERMITS.	All permits required by law will be obtained by Buyer at Buyer's 
sole expense.


7.  CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT.  Buyer certifies that he is exempt from payment of the 
sales and use tax on the amount of this contract because the performance of this 
contract will result in a capital improvement to the real property.


8.  ACCEPTANCE BY COMPANY.    This contract is subject to the approval of a duly 
authorized officer of the company and is not effective until signed by such an 
officer.  Sales personnel are not duly authorized officers.  Company shall have 
the right, prior to commencement of work, to cancel this contract and refund 
Buyer's downpayment.  This contract is further subject to approval after 
inspection of the job by Company's technical personnel, and to credit approval 
by company's credit department.


9.  ENTIRE AGREEMENT;  MODIFICATION.	This contract contains the entire 
agreement between company and Buyer.  No oral statements or representations have 
been made to Buyer by Company's representatives which are not expressly set 
forth in this contract, and Buyer has not relied upon any statements or 
representations other than those set forth in this contract.  Company's sales 
personnel are not authorized to modify any terms of this contract or to make any 
representations not set forth in this contract.  This contract may not be 
modified except in a writing signed by Company and Buyer.


10.  BINDING CONTRACT;  ASSIGNMENT.	This contract will be binding upon 
Company and Buyer and their heirs, successors and assigns.  Company shall have 
the right to assign this contract without consent of Buyer.  Buyer may not 
assign this contract without the written consent of Company.


11.  ASBESTOS REMOVAL.	   Company shall not be responsible for the removal of 
any asbestos material.


                                     NOTICE

ANY HOLDER OF THIS CONSUMER CREDIT CONTRACT IS SUBJECT TO ALL CLAIMS AND 
DEFENSES WHICH THE DEBTOR COULD ASSERT AGAINST THE SELLER OF GOODS OR SERVICES 
OBTAINED PURSUANT HERETO OR WITH THE PROCEEDS HEREOF.  RECOVERY HEREUNDER BY THE 
DEBTOR SHALL NOT EXCEED AMOUNTS PAID BY THE DEBTOR HEREUNDER.


                            BUYER'S RIGHT TO CANCEL

YOU, THE BUYER, MAY CANCEL THIS TRANSACTION AT ANY TIME PRIOR TO MIDNIGHT OF THE 
THIRD BUSINESS DAY AFTER THE DATE OF THIS TRANSACTION.  SEE ATTACHED NOTICE OF 
CANCELLATION FORM FOR AN EXPLANATION OF THIS RIGHT.

NOTICE TO THE BUYER:  1. DO NOT SIGH THIS AGREEMENT BEFORE YOU READ IT OR IF IT 
CONTAINS ANY BLANK SPACE.   2. YOU ARE ENTITLED TO A COMPLETELY FILLED IN COPY 
OF THIS AGREEMENT AT THE TIME YOU SIGN IT.  KEEP IT TO PROTECT YOUR LEGAL 
RIGHTS.   3. UNDER THE LAW, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO PAY OFF IN ADVANCE THE FULL 
AMOUNT DUE AND UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES TO OBTAIN A PARTIAL REFUND OF THE 
CREDIT SERVICE CHARGE.  4. YOU MAY, UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, REDEEM THE 
PROPERTY IF REPOSSESSED BECAUSE OF YOUR DEFAULT, AND YOU MAY, UNDER CERTAIN 
CONDITIONS, REQUIRE A RESALE OF THE PROPERTY IF REPOSSESSED.   5. tHE SELLER HAS 
NO RIGHT TO UNLAWFULLY ENTER YOUR PREMISES OR COMMIT ANY BREACH OF THE PEACE TO 
REPOSSESS GOODS PURCHASED UNDER THIS AGREEMENT.


                          RETAIL INSTALLMENT CONTRACT


Date:____________________________	

_________________________________	___________________________________
      		Buyer			            Signature

_________________________________
      		Buyer

    It looks like you have to buy your fuel oil from them for a year.  At
    what price?  They could be nailing you here.  

>>      underground piping), cement, Armoflex insulation (overhead piping), (2) 


Is the "cement" going to be concrete or some other cement product?  You might 
want to be more descriptive here. Perhaps replace cement with concrete, if that
is what the contractor is going to use.

dave

    re:  .16  Contract Input
    
    I appreciate the two replies to my request in .16 for help.  I have
    decided to add a few items in an addendum to the contract, and thought
    that I would post them here to help others who might find themselves in
    a similar situation.  The iaddendum is found below.
    
    I would appreciate any additional input.  Thanks
    
                       ADDENDUM TO CONTRACT BETWEEN
                          ATLANTIC PETROLEUM AND
                         DAVID AND CHERYL ABELOW
    
    
    (A)	Item 6 under "General Conditions" will not apply as a condition of
        the contract.  Instead, the following will apply:
    
    	"All permits required by law will be obtained by the Seller,
    	 Atlantic Petroleum.  The price of these permits is included in 
    	 the total job price of $8304.00."
    
    
    (B)	The total job price of $8304.00 will be paid by the Buyer to the
    	Seller in according to the following schedule:
    
    		50%  ($4152.00) will be paid upon acceptance by both
    		Parties to this contract.
    
    		30%  ($2491.20) will be paid upon completion of the
    		installation.
    
    		The remaining 20%  ($1660.80) will be paid upon inspection
    		by  EHC representaive, provided inspection proves
    	 	satisfactory.
    
    
    (C)	Installation will commence within ten (10) business days of the
    	acceptance of this contract by the Seller and Buyer.  Installation
    	will be completed within thirty (30) days of commencement of
    	installation, notwithstanding delays allowed under Item 1 under
    	"General Conditions".
    
    	The installation will be deemed complete when the inspection
    	by  EHC representaive is completed, provided inspection proves
    	satisfactory.
    
    
    
    (D)	Item 4 under "General Conditions" will be replaced with the
    	following language:
    
    	"INSURANCE.  The Seller will provide the Buyer with certificates
    	 of worker's compensation and public liability insurance for all
    	 contractors and sub-contractors as applicable to the work
    	 performed under this contract.
    
    	"Further, the Seller represents that worker's compensation and
    	 public liability insurance are carried and are applicable to the work
    	 performed under this contract or that the Seller is self-insured as
    	 permitted by law."
    
    
    (E)	Item 3b under "General Conditions" will be replaced with the
        following language:
    
    	"Failure to purchase all Buyer's fuel oil requirements from the
    	 seller, Atlantic Petroleum, for a period of one year from the date
    	 that installation is completed, which purchases buyer agrees to
    	 make in further consideration of this contract.
    
    	"However, the Buyer will only be obligated to purchase all of his	
    	 fuel oil requirements from the Seller during this period if the	
    	 Seller's price for delivered fuel oil is competitive.  A
    	 competitive price is defined, for the purpose of this contract,
    	 to be no more than eight cents above the average of the home	
    	 heating fuel price for Coan Inc. (Natick), Radiant Fuel Company 	
     	 (Newton), and Crown Discount Fuel Company (Framingham).
    
    	"Should the Seller's per gallon delivered fuel oil price not be
    	 competitive, the Buyer will have the right to terminate the obligation
	 to purchase all Buyer's fuel oil requirements from the Seller
    	 during this one year period.  Notice of termination will be made
    	 in writing by the Buyer to the Seller at least thirty days prior to the
    	 effective date of termination."
    
    
    (F)	Item 5 under "General Conditions" will be replaced with the
        following language:  
    
    	"CONDITION OF PROPERTY.  If any material or obstacle other than
    	 ordinary soil or gravel is encountered in excavating for the
    	 installation or repair of equipment, the seller will immediately notify
    	 Buyer of this condition.  Buyer will then have the option to cancel
    	 this contract and be liable only for labor and materials expended
    	 through the date of notification or to authorize the extra work to be
    	 done and execute a modification agreement disclosing the cost of the
    	 extra work.  
    
    	"The only exceptions to this are the lifting of carpeting for the
    	 purpose of creating trenches for running plumbing in the concrete 
    	 floor, replacement of the carpeting to its original pre-installation 
    	 condition upon completion of the job, drilling through walls and 
    	 ceilings as required to run the plumbing and baseboard throughout
    	 the house, and the installation of the chimney for the new
    	 furnace, all of which are included in the total job price of
    	 $8304.00."
    
    
    (G)	Item 8 under "General Conditions" will be replaced with the
        following language:  
    
    	"ACCEPETANCE BY SELLER AND BUYER.  This contract is subject to the
    	approval of a duly authorized officer of the company and is not
    	effective until signed by such an officer.  Sales Personnel are not
    	duly authorized officers.  Seller and/or Buyer shall have the right to
    	cancel this contract in writing at any time prior to commencement of
    	work.  If this contract is cancelled, a full refund of all deposits	
    	made by the Buyer will be given within ten (10) business days of notice 
    	of cancellation.  Ths contract is further subject to credit
    	approval by company's credit department."

It's a long story, but we finally decided on a contractor to do some major
renovation work in our Master BR -- adding a bathroom, sectioning off a walk-in
closet, and popping up the flat ceiling into the attic (2nd floor of gambrel)
for a vaulted ceiling with skylights...

My husband (an EE and very handy at DIY) and I created the design - complete
with computer-drawn floorplan with all measurements to scale - and also ordered
our own fixtures (sink, tub, toilet, skylights) after shopping around for the
best deals/sales.  The contractor just gave us the written contract and even
though it mentions that it "does not include..., taxes, ...", there was about
3% added to the total verbal estimate at the bottom of the contract for Taxes.

o  Is it normal to be "taxed" for contract labor?
o  If so, what is the typical rate? (the figure seemed arbitrary to me)
o  If not, is there anything we can do about it?

My husband signed the contract (after reading these notes, *I* would not have
signed it yet since it also didn't mention start and finish dates - although
these were discussed verbally - and a few other details were not mentioned)
and paid a bit less than 30% for materials for the job which is to begin in
12 days.

Another question:

o  Are verbal agreements binding (as in the start/finsh dates)?

I should note that we've used this contractor once before for a minor job -
installing microlam beams in place of a wall we removed - and although he was
pleasant enough, he never really struck me as particularly organized or
committed to service quality (a few things came up which caused unplanned
delays...)..

My husband is the one who will be working with him and he seems comfortable
enough with it (since he'll be doing the electrical, he'll be there to
"keep an eye on" the contractor's progress), but I am somewhat paranoid that
he may not deliver on time.  I'm mainly concerned because of my own personal
"delivery" plan - our first child is due 4 weeks after the contractor says he'll
be done (and then there's the ever-impossible-to-schedule "finish work" that
my husband will have to do...) and I obviously want to be moved back into the
room before then...

Thanks for any input.

Cutting_it_close or Irrational_mom_to_be,
-Cori

re: .20

o  Is it normal to be "taxed" for contract labor?
o  If so, what is the typical rate? (the figure seemed arbitrary to me)
o  If not, is there anything we can do about it?

      This  depends  on the law in your state.  If the law requires that
      taxes be collected and your contract says "does not include", then
      you are responsible for taxes.

o  Are verbal agreements binding (as in the start/finsh dates)?

      A "verbal agreement" which is either part of a written contrace or
      a contract in its  own  right  is  binding.   The  problem  is  in
      prooving  what the "verbal agreement" was.  You and the contractor
      will likely remember differently.
      
      Also,  many  written contracts contain a clause to the effect that
      changes and addtions to the contract must in writing.  This is  to
      avoid the problem of different memories.

o  Is it normal to be "taxed" for contract labor?

In Mass., contract labor isn't taxed, but materials are.  However, if you 
buy a manufactured house, you get taxed on the total price.  So there is
a minor advantage in the tax laws for site built buildings.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

So the tax is for the materials to be used in the job, not the labor (it is
Mass.)... Well, this seems odd since I would expect for the contractor to
include any taxes on materials in his estimate.  I think he is just trying to
up the estimate however possible for his benefit, which is why it's so annyoying.

Anyway, since we already purchased the big-ticket items (jacuzzi tub, pedestal
sink, skylights, etc.), the remaining materials are lumber, sheetrock, and
nails so I can't see the taxes being a substantial factor in the cost.  It's
just the principle of it -- giving us a "complete" estimate figure verbally,
then tacking on the taxes on the written contract -- that seemed a bit sleazy.

I will take the suggestion to write up an addendum to the contract which
specifies the start/finish dates and any other terms I can think of that were
left out of the original.

Thanks,
-Cori

    Putting the start and finish dates into the contract is a good idea,
    and you can also specify a penalty if the finish date is not met.  I
    used $50/day.  However, there are ways the contractor can get around
    paying the penalty.  He can count all the days that the weather kept
    him from working, and tack them onto the finish date.  The only real
    advantage to having the date written is that it eliminates any excuse
    for remembering the agreement differently, and shows him you are
    serious about needing the work done on time.  
    
    A much better tool to use to force the completion of work is to put a
    schedule of payments into the contract which are tied to completion of
    work.  Don't pay for things until they are done, and extract any late
    penalties from the payments.  That puts the burden of sueing for money
    on the contractor, not on you.
    
    Unless you are in the legal profession, you probably cannot write a
    contract good enough to protect yourself in all respects.  In my
    opinion, it is much more important to find a reputable contractor, and
    set up a friendly working relationship.  You catch more flies with
    honey......
    
    Regards,
    
    Steve

    Just my 2 cents regarding the start/finish dates and penalties.  If
    you are going to impose a penalty for a late finish, are you also 
    planning to give him more money if he finishes early ??  It only
    makes sense if you are going to be equitable...
    
    
    Like I said, just my 2 cents....
    
    Steve

    It may not be as much as a benefit to finish it early, as it would
    be a hardship to finish late. Example, if you have 5 subs that
    must work consecutively, having each finish early is ok, but if
    one finishes late, all the rest of the schedules must be adjusted.
    A crime worthy of a financial penalty!
    
    John

Also, giving a bonus for finishing early COULD cause contractor to use less than
his best work just to get the bonus.

Ed..

    RE: A few back.

    	Steve, 

    	You bring up a good point. In fact from what I've been told by a
    couple project managers is if you impose a penalty, then you must pay
    (reward) in the same manner. So if you want to charge $50/day late
    penalty, then you must pay $50/day early completion. (disclaimer: this
    is what I've been told and it makes sense to me, but I'm not a lawyer) 
    As one stated a couple back, cooperation with a reputable contractor
    is the ONLY way to go. I would still ask for the completion date on the
    contract, it may not mean too much, but it may be useful if you have
    problems.

    	One more thing about payments. On all of my proposals (I'm a master
    electrician, and I do allot of contacting on my own) that I send out, I 
    state the terms of payment. Just for an example, on a new house I state
    that 1/3 (of the proposed price) is due upon rough inspection, 1/3 due
    upon inspection of the service, and the remainder is due upon final
    inspection. As you can see I only get paid when my work has passed
    inspection. This insures the customer that the work has been OK'ed by
    the inspector. It puts me in a vulnerable spot, because I only get paid
    when I have completed my work (but I can typically spot a customer that
    I am going to have money problems with, and I adjust my price
    accordingly, but that's another topic). If I was the customer this is
    how I would want it. As a rule, once the contractor has gotten paid, he
    looses interest in the job, and it will get "back-burnered" indefinitely.
    The bottom line, HOLD SOME MONEY BACK. Some contractors want a deposit
    before they start (I do this only when I adjust my price :*), or if I
    have to order allot of materials). If they  are ordering allot of
    materials this is so they don't get stuck. If they do, you may want to
    ask for the materials to be "drop-shipped", or shipped to the job site.
    This way you GET what you already paid for. This is the best way to do
    it IF you have the room to store it.

    	The bottom line, if your dealing with a contractor that you don't
    know, its a crap-shoot for both of you.

    	Cary 

*If* you could find a contractor who would put up with a penalty clause, I
suspect you'd have a very hard time enforcing it if you had to, given the
relatively small amounts of money on renovation projects.

The biggest stick in my arsenal was the payment schedule and dates, which were
suggested by my lawyer.  If I do it again, I'll try to add a warranty of some
kind.

Pete

    I agree that payment only after work has been complete and inspected
    is the best approach.  As I was building a new house, this is the only
    way it could be done as the bank will not release funds until the work
    has been inspected by it's representative.  I also put in a penalty
    clause for lateness based on interest on the construction loan and my
    monthly rent.  The main reason for this was to avoid the possibility of
    a builder walking off to start another job without having finished
    mine.  As it turns out, there wer no problems so as you already know,
    the best thing to do is get a builder you can trust - much less
    headaches.
    
    - Mike

    What are the typical completion stages to schedule "progress payments"
    for new construction.....would this be a reasonable break down?
    
    Site clearing and septic
    Foundation
    Exter. Shell Rough Framing (w/ windows)
    Roofing, Siding and Ext. Trim
    Electrical
    Insulation
    Plumbing and Heating
    Plastering Sheetrock
    Finish Carpentry
    *COMPLETION*
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jonathan
    

When we did it, both the electrician and the plumber wanted roughly half their
money after the "rough" work, and the rest "upon completion" (after the
insulation and sheet-rock).

If you need a well, that can go as a one-shot deal up to, I guess, the finish
plumbing/electric; or you can drill/pump-install only almost anytime (sort of)
and hook up the tank with the finish plumbing maybe?

Our framers did the shell and ext. trim as a whole.  Roofing and siding each
were separate contracts.  Your timing is right, tho.

Also, the basement floor can be poured separately - nice to do it after the
shell is tight so rain can't mess the drying cement.

And, of course, landscaping.   HA!

    If you need a well, I'd drill it first, before doing anything else.
    It would be extremely depressing to get the house all built, only
    to drill 800' and not hit water.  In New England at least the
    odds of that aren't very great, but why not do it first and be sure
    you can get water.

    
    Thanks for the replys so far........to clarify, the water is "town" 
    supplied. The water and underground electric are part of the site
    work costs.
    
    When working on a progress payment arrangement, is it reasonable or
    normal for the builder to expect some payment for materials (lumber, 
    windows, etc). My feeling is that most builders have credit with their 
    suppliers of 30-60 days, so progress/completion payments should cover
    their materials with time to spare.  Sound reasonable??
    
    Jonathan

    
    Most banks require you to have water before they'll give you a
    construction loan. This means that if it's well water, then the well
    must be dug first. If you can't hit water, then you don't get the
    construction loan. For town water all you need is a letter from the
    town stating that you're on city water.
    
    Mike

>   <<< Note 2647.32 by XANADU::RECKARD "Jon Reckard, 381-0878, ZKO3-2/T63" >>>

>Also, the basement floor can be poured separately - nice to do it after the
>shell is tight so rain can't mess the drying cement.

    One nit.....cement doesn't dry, it is a curing process. Rain,even a 
heavy downpour, will have little effect once it is poured, leveled, and 
troweled. I would prefer the have my cement stay wet for a week after 
pouring, it makes a much harder finished product. Pros use straw or burlap 
blankets to cover their work and soak it for long periods of time to cure 
the cement.

    Vic

    
    Yes, keeping concrete wet helps the curing process.  But if you ever 
    had to take a carborundum brick to a slab that had a "hail finish,"
    you'd see the wisdom of Jon's point, too.
    
    JP

We're having a split rail fence installed at our house.  Today the post hole 
digger struck water, just on our side of the water meter.  They are trying to 
claim no responsibility for this, but I think my wife has convinced them they 
need to fix it.

The complex part of it this is, the pipe they broke is the blue type that has 
a recall on it.  The recall says that if it splits, you call an 800 number and 
a local plumber will replace it with PVC for free.  However, since the pipe 
was broken, they will not do this for free.

The fence company looks like they are willing to replace the broken section 
with copper (maybe 1 foot, plus fittings) which will get us water again.  
However, the other plumber is saying you cannot repair the blue pipe, and if 
we do, we loose the ability to claim a free replacement through the program.

Can we force the fence company to replace the entire run of blue pipe or take 
our chances in the future if the remaining blue pipe doesn't split, or what?

Thanks
Dave

    	Why not just call the 800 number and tell them you want to have the
    pipe replaced ? You can tell them it's broken and probably leave it at
    that. So long as the plumber gets paid, what the heck does he care
    whether it split or was broken ?
    
    	Ray

	Did you warn the diggers that there were water pipes around?

	If not, and they didn't claim to have checked, I can't see how
you can blame them.  

	For future reference, there's a service 1-800-dig-safe that you
can call before any excavation is started, and they'll notify the
utilities (power, water, etc) that they have a certain time period to
come out and mark their service locations.  This may not help for stuff
on your own side, like this domestic feeder line, but it's a good idea
anyway, certainly if any serious digging (machinery) is involved, as it
removes your liability.  Without this, you or your contractor may find
yourself on the front paper as having caused some disaster....

	I had to do this before I had my garage foundation dug.  No
official lines present, but I did have to locate my well line myself
before starting the big dig.  I did this by knowing where both ends
were, and by calling the original installer and asking what they knew,
and then by careful exploratory digging to locate the actual pipe and
wires.  I was lucky, and it was clear of my work...but I had to dig down
5' to find that out.

	On the other side (oops) I recently cut an underground power line
(house to shed) that I found in an unexpected place.  I was digging and
thought I'd found just another root - and learned otherwise after the usual
plunges with the spade resulted not in a cut root but a shiny glint...
fortunately power was off.  Apparently this wire took advantage of the
existing foundation trench instead of taking the direct route.

The fence company is paying to have the break fixed and my wife found a lawyer 
who said the warrenty on the blue pipe will not be affected.

As for them breaking the pipe, the hole was *right* next to the water meter 
metal case in the ground and the workers said they knew the water pipe was 
under there, but they were expecting it to be deeper.

The owner of the fence company was initally against them paying for any 
repairs, but now he is very willing to foot the bill.  

Dave

We did call the utilities and the gas company marked their lines.  The water 
company never did mark theirs, but were very clear the line from the water 
meter (near the street) to our house was our responsibility.  All the 
electric/phone/cable is above ground.

Dave