Conference 7.286::home_work

    Just a short warning note to advise people not to hire Energy
    Contractors and Consultants from Hudson Ma.  This is a SLEASY
    company!  Without going into a lot of details, here's the scoop:
    
    - Hired Energy Contractors to insulate my house in July.  My 
      inside walls and ceiling have been torn down to the studs and 
      ready to insulate since July.  (I can't do the insulation 
      myself - see note #263).
    
    - I gave them a 40% deposit. ($560).  They said they'd insulate
      my house in two weeks.  My house still isn't insulated and
      it's getting cold!  I'm freezing my *buns* off!!      
    
    - They never returned any of my phone calls (they have an answering
      service) until I called in the Hudson police detective to help
      me.  Then they started telling me they'd be there a certain day
      and then they don't show up and don't call.
    
    - Needless to say...I've filed a small claims suit against them.
      We go to court in October.  I'm hoping they'll finally insulate
      my house when they find out they're getting sued for my current
      heating bills!
      
    - Another thing..... The owner called to tell me they couldn't give
      me as high an R value as they originally told me, because when
      he came to measure my house the second time, he found out that
      the 2 x 4's in my roof were only 3 1/2" instead of 4".  (Geesh,
      How dumb does he think I am!  Since when are 2 x4's  4"????)
      I called him on that one right away, and he said they'll give
      me the original R value he quoted me.            
    
    Oops, guess I rattled on longer than I meant too.  Sorry.  I'm just
    SOOOOOOOO mad and frustrated with this SLEASY company!
    
    - Molly -
                      
    

    Sounds like it is time to write to the Consumer Protection division
    of the Attorney General's office.   Small Claims court will solve
    your problem (maybe) but won't keep the sleaze buckets from doing
    it to someone else.   Copy the Better Business Bureau as well.

I called the BBB about a business once. They have a set procedure that
    is followed for complaints against a business. You can also call
    and check on a business and see if they've been previously reported.
    By all means, give them a call and let them know about these folks...
    
    Sounds like the only thing these guy's are good at insulating is
    insulating people from their wallets. 
    
    Gil   8')
    

    Sounds like a communist plot! Why did you choose them in the first
    place?
                          Ed
                                         

    Well..... I hired them because they were the only company who
    said they could do the job right away - within two weeks!
    
    I called the Better Business Bureau to check them out before 
    I hired them.  The BBB didn't have any reports on them.  You
    can bet that the BBB will certainly have a report on this company
    when I get through with them!!!!
    
    I'm waiting until after they come do the insulation before I start
    making things miserable for this company.  I don't want to get the
    company so mad that they don't come do the insulation at all.  
    (Because I still need to get my house insulated!)
    
    I have about three or four different consumer protection agencies
    that I'm going to write to.
    
    - Molly -

    Has anyone here ever gotten a bad report from a BBB?
    I have always found them to be on the side of businesses,
    like a chamber of commerce.  
    I bet that if after you report this energy company, someone
    else calls the BBB, they won't tell you about this case.
    

    Re: .5
            Not true! They have a mile long list of buisnesses who
          have a bad mark against them. When you inquire about   a
          certain buisness at the BBB, they can tell you if  there
          is a complaint lodged against that firm, but they  can't
          elaborate on the subject. I used the BBB against GM  two
          months ago for a lemon Cavalier I  bought  from  Diamond
          Chevrolet. Gm ended up buing the car back from me!
    
                                                      /BB

    Are you sure you WANT them to insulate your house?  If you haven't
    paid them anything (or much) it might be prudent to cancel the
    whole deal and go find somebody more reputable.
    
    Steve

    RE: .7    Boy were you right!  I shouldn't have had them insulate!
    
    They finally showed up on Friday.  To make a long story sort-a short,
    I'll just list parts of the fiasco (sp?).
    
    - They show up without any ladders. (I have a cathedral ceiling).
      They spend all day taking turns using my one ladder.  6 guys,
      most of the time 5 standing around smoking, drinking and nursing 
      hangovers!
    
    - They stapled the fiberglass to the front of the studs.  Unfortunately
      I was outside watching the guy put in the ridge vent and roof
      vents while the fiberglass was going up.  I didn't see what they
      had done until they were through.  What a hassle it's going to
      be to try and miss the staples while I'm putting up my walls.
      Maybe I'll take the time to pull the staples and re-staple the
      fiberglass to the sides of the studs.  Any suggestions?
    
    - They put up foil lined board on the ceiling, but didn't tape the
      seams.
    
    - They put in ridge vents and roof vents, but told me I didn't need
      soffit vents.  Later one of the workers told me they forgot the
      soffit vents and I really did need them.  The ridge and roof vents
      won't do any good without the soffit vents.
    
    - Instead of an R value of 21 in the cathedral ceiling, I got 14.
      Luckily, the contract I signed said 21.  I have no intention of
      paying the $1400 that was quoted in the contract.  And since the
      company didn't live up to their end of the contract, I've got
      some room to negotiate.
    
    - I'd like to call in a couple of other insulating contractors to
      get their estimate on what was done, so if this thing goes to
      court, I'll have some proof that it wasn't a $1400 dollar job.
      Does anyone know of a contractor who would come and give me a
      written estimate?  I'm willing to pay for it.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    - Molly -
      
    Almost forgot something.... Boy was the owner mad that
    I wouldn't give him a check for the remainder due on Friday
    while he was there.  To avoid a hassle, and to avoid him pulling
    his workers off the job, I told him my checkbook was at work. 
    (He left about 3 hours before the work was "finished").
    He wanted to know when this weekend he could come by the house and
    pick up the check.  I told him I'd be home for sure on Sunday night.
    He said okay, he'd stop by.  Tee-hee, notice it's Sunday night when
    I'm writing this, and I'm at work, not home!!!  Serves him right!
    :-)  (I'm not going to pay this bozo.  He'll have to take me to
    court first.)

    Don't bother re-stapling the insulation to the sides of the studs.
    I did a whole upstairs the way the bozos did (...maybe I didn't
    want to say it that way...) for two reasons:
    
    1. Overlapping the facing on the front of the stud creates a more
       continuous vapor barrier.
    
    2. It requires a lot fewer staples (which is a major plus if you're
       using a human-powered stapler).

    I had no problem sheet-rocking - the screws/nails must just push
    the staples out of the way, or cut throught them, if you manage
    to hit them at all.
    
    So maybe the insulation texhnicians were trying to give you a better
    vapor barrier (or maybe the cheapskates were trying to save staples).
    At any rate, you can probably take that item off the gripe list.
    

    .8 Go for it! Make the contractor chase you around for a while.
    If he does call give him more excuses and tell him to finish the
    job and put in the soffits. They are needed for a ridge venting
    system. I have that system. Don't let him tell you other wise!!!!
                                                                   
          Ed

    and don't make him take you to court, take him to court first!
    get someone else to give you an evaluation of the job, and an estimate
    of what it would take to make it live up to the contract - soffit
    vents, full R factor, the works.  Then go to court to get the original
    contract price reduced by an equivalent amount - don't settle for
    having the original contractor do the work, they've proven themselves
    unreliable.

    Right on .11 If he can't deliver a R value he stated he could he
    has no business as an insulation contractor! He should know before
    he opens his mouth. Go to small claims court it's cheaper.
                                                                   Ed

    Thanks for all this advice.  I really appreciate it.
    I still have my small claims court set up for Oct. 23rd. 
    (From when the contractor wouldn't come do the job.)
    Instead of cancelling it, I'll go and do as .11 suggests. 
    
    I'll let you know how it turns out.
    
    I'm still looking for a contractor to come give me an estimate.
    Also, more replys and suggestions welcome.
    
    Thanks,
    
    - Molly -

    There are several insulation contractors in the Fitchburg, Leominster
    area.
                    Ed

    Foil faced rigid insulation (Owens Corning Energy Shield) is not
    taped on the joints after installation.  You just put the sheetrock
    (or whatever) directly over it.
    
    -al

    RE: .15
    
    They used the Energy Shield, but didn't put the sheets together
    very well.  There are 1" gaps in some places.  
    
    Question?  What happens to the vapor barrier if the joints aren't
    taped?  Even if there weren't gaps, wouldn't that be a poor vapor
    barrier?  (The energy shield is on the ceiling.)
    
    - Molly -

    Energy Shield *should* be installed similar to sheetrock; that is
    they are supposed to butt one piece right up against the other and
    try to minimize the gap.  1/8 - 1/4" is ok.  1" sounds like shoddy
    workmanship.
    
    The foil on the energy shield should not really be used as a vapor
    barrier.  Its main purpose is to be a radiation reflector.  Most
    of the foil has tiny dings and holes in it as a result of handling
    and installation.  There should be a standard polyethylene plastic
    vapor barrier in addition.
    
    To increase its effectiveness, strapping should be installed over
    the Energy Shield so that there is a gap between it and the sheetrock
    (or siding).
    
    -al

Hmm, I don't know about putting a poly vapor barrier over energy shield.  Seems 
like overkill to me.  I've put up both, and it doesn't seem to me like the foil 
is any more likely to get holes in it than poly is, plus there are two layers of
foil on each sheet.  Some vapor-barrier tape over the seams would be a good 
idea, but I wouldn't bother with poly.

Paul

    When you take these guys to court, you may want some pictures to
    show the poor workmanship (like the 1" gaps).
    
    
    Mark
    

    Well, this fiasco is finally over, and I thought I'd post
    a final update. 
    
    We went to court last month, and I won.  The judge agreed that the
    work was poor quality and that the contractor had shabby business
    policies, but..... get this - The judge said "I should have to pay
    for my mistake of entering into the contract in the first place!!"
    So, I have to pay for the cost of the materials that the contractor
    put into my house.  Instead of the original price of $1400, I have
    to pay $800.  Boy am I glad this is over.  No more contractors!
    From now on, I'm going to DO IT MYSELF!!!!
    
    Thanks again for all the replies and help during this.  
                      
    - Molly -

    
    We're using the services of "Solar Glass Company", Jamaica Plai{,
    522-1177 for our passive solar addition. I know you said in Middlesex
    area, but my addition is in Carlisle and the distance was never
    a problem for them. They came to the house on several occasions. We
    are using them for purchase of the glass and installation only. We had 
    the glass wall framed by someone else. This company does say they do 
    "design". They've been very helpful and knowledgeable. Person we used
    was Cynthia Brown and she got the technical seal of approval from my 
    husband and our carpenter.
    
    Kathy

    I had a large two family insulated and new storm windows put on
    I used ENERGY CONCEPTS from Westboro, they did a fine job, quality
    work and very cooperative workers and good prices.  They do work all
    over Mass. and into New Hampshire.  Give me a call or send mail
    and I'll give you names and details.
    
    DTN: 223-1311
         PMROAD::CALDERA
    
    Paul

    Does anyone have a recent recommendation for an insulation contractor
    in southern N.H.?  I'm having a problem is one of my upstairs bedrooms
    whereby spots on the ceiling get _very_ cold (I've actually seen ice
    patches on the ceiling).  This is presumably due to an insulation
    problem, and I'd like to have someone investigate.

It almost seems like there might be a roof problem.  Water may be getting in,
wetting the insulation and causing cold spots (and ice on the ceiling - or do 
you mean frost?) by negating the effect of the insulation.  Then again it could
be cold air is just getting around the insulation and in contact with the
ceiling.   You can probably check this yourself with a quick visual inspection.
It would be well worth checking out soon.

Stan

    Does anyone have any recommendations for a company that can do blown-in 
    cellulose insulation?  I live in Maynard, MA.
    
    Thanks ****andrea****
    
    CHIPBZ::MASON

    
    
    Does anyone had any experience with the Big Saver Insulation
    program that ComGas Provides here in Mass?
    
    
    As part of their Energy Audit our our house (which is a 250 year old
    colonial with NO insulation)                  
    
    They told us about their insulation program where they pay 50%
    of the cost to bring your house up to a certain level. They have
    a list of contractors who will do the work for their quote and 
    they assign one of these contractors 
    
    
    They gave us a quote to insulate and ventilate our attic and
    to blow in cellulose insulation into our walls.
    
    Now the quote was much lower then we expected, even before the
    50% off   and the energy auditor said we only had 30 days to
    decide because the program is going away.
    
    
    With the price quote being almost to good to be true and the
    "only have 30 days to join" we are looking for the catch.
    
    We are worried that if we go with this type of program we would get
    shoddy work done and not have control over what exactly gets
    done. 
       
    
    If any one has any experience with this program or just general
    suggestions/comments
    
    I would be very interested 
     
       Thanks
          Paul
    

    I used the Big Saver Insulation program to have insulation blown into
    my house.  It was done the summer of '94.  I live in Marlboro and they
    sent a company from Rhode Island.  I have a 3-bedroom ranch and it took
    3 guys about 6 hours.  They were great about answering all my
    questions, cleaned up everything and did a good job nailing all the
    shingles back on.
    
    An inspector from ComGas came early in the afternoon to make sure
    things were being done correctly.  I had checked prices with a few
    companies and the price quoted by ComGas was reasonable, so having them
    pay half the cost is a good deal!
    
    The last few winters and my schedule have been erratic, so it's hard to
    compare my heating bills.  I have noticed the house is cooler in the 
    summer, so I think the insulation must be working. 
    
    - Cindy

    	I guess I'll give a thumbs down to Quality Insulation of Nashua... 
    They did my new house earlier this week.  On the plus side their price
    was good and they showed up within a day of when they said they would. 
    On the down side they did the following...
    
    - Used a 3mil vapor barrier (on the unfaced batts).  This stuff is like
      Saran Wrap and tears very easily.  Indeed there were many tears and
      many corners didn't have overlapping seams.
    
    - Didn't bother with a vapor barrier of any sort in a room that shares
      a wall with the garage (the insulation all blew down yesterday).
    
    - Didn't bother to staple the flaps of the kraft paper faced batts. 
      Several of them blew out of a knee wall in the wind yesterday.
    
    - "Hid" all the left over scraps behind the knee walls.  Sometimes far
      enough back to cover the soffit vents.  I'm sure they'll claim they
      were adding extra insulation to the space behind the walls.
    
    - Ran the batts over the electrical wires rather than splitting it half
      in front and half behind.
    
    	Because my sheetrock crew was showing up today, I went around and
    fixed everything up and used a 6 mil vapor barrier around the whole
    mess.  If I had had some extra time I would have made them come back to
    fix the lousy work.  It seems most new construction in Nashua uses
    these guys.  Its a shame they choose to save a few hours in labor and
    cause a drafty home forever.  Use them if you must (or if their price
    beats others by a wide margin).  If I had to use them again, I'd tell
    them to leave the poly down and just do it all myself properly.
    
    Brian
    

    
    A recommendation for Mor-Tite Insulation run by Elliot Morahardt out of
    New Ipswich, NH (covers S. NH and Eastern Ma.)  603-878-4393.  
    
    Product used was blown in cellulose and fiberglass insulation (not mixed - 
    used in separate areas) with a water & latex binder to stablize/eliminate
    settling.  The amount of binder is barely discernable to the  touch, but 
    while drying there is a combination of wet paint/wet cardboard smell.  
    The cellulose is pretty standard stuff - recycled newspaper with 
    fire-retardant.  
    
    Timely, good quality of material and workmanship, costs about 12% more
    than traditional batting though.
    
    Showed up on time to do the estimate, answered a whole lot of questions.  
    I needed to modify what/how much was to be done so he had to come out
    again (called and asked if he could come out on a sunday).  Always 
    returned my calls within the same day.
    
    Gave me a time range of when he'd start and promised to call the
    day/night before.  He did.
    
    Arrived early on job site (7:30-8am) and his 4 man crew worked late on
    the 2nd day (turns out they did this so they could finish early the
    next day and get the afternoon off).
    
    Fiberglass was substituted in some areas where they felt it was more 
    appropriate and they also went over their estimate on the number of 
    bales by about 20 at no extra cost (they billed the quoted price only).
    The owner and work crew seemed to really care about the work they
    were doing.
    
    They did a very good job of cleaning up afterward too.
    
    According to articles I've read this system is rated high in quality.
    
    Work included installation of rafter bay vents, stapling netting up and
    blowing in insulation.  Took 2 1/2 days to do a total of about 4000 sqft
    in the ceiling and between 1st/2nd floors.
    
    Cost was about $0.90/sqft for a 12" average depth of blown in insulation
    (cathedral ceilings were 14" deep, between floor ceilings was between
    14" [at ends] and 8" [middle], with an average of about 12").  In 
    comparison, the raw fiberglass batting cost for the same depth is 
    ~$0.65/sqft.  Price will vary with the work location -- about 1/2 the total 
    area required a 2 high staging setup.  This job was bid ~$400 less by 
    another company using straight fiberglass batting, with the other 
    company admitting that the blown-in would give better R value (but would
    cost more).