Conference 7.286::home_work

    Depends on the extent of dry rot, but for smaller areas there is
    a substance called GIT-ROT.  I used to get it a marine supply stores
    and it was used for wood boats which tend to get alot of dry rot.
    
    -al

    Al,
    
    I just did a lot of repair work under an old porch, and did a lot
    of reading up on the problem in the Old House Journal and other
    books.
    
    The first thing they tell you is that the term 'DRY' rot is a misnomer,
    because when folks finally find the situation, the only evidence
    is dry powdery wood.  The cause is water or excessive moisture getting
    into the wood, in combination with litle or no air circulation to
    dry out this dampness.  The damp wood is a great environment for
    different fungi to reproduce and attack the wood.  By the time you
    see it, the rot could be years old and quite dry.

    The first thing is to correct water access and air circulation problems
    to prevent it from happening after the repair job.
    
    If the rot has not affected too large an area so as to affect
    structural integrity, you can use a wood 'consolident' (usually
    an epoxy, available by the gallon from one of several distributors.
    
    I had to dig out all the old rotted wood and 'Sister' the existing
    beam before filling in in the void. Sistering means to attach new
    good wood along both side of the old piece where the old piece is
    still intact (no evidence of rot) using long bolts through the entire
    cross section.
    
    If you need some information from the Old House Journal articles,
    send me a message, and I'll look it up for you. They also list sources
    for the various wood consolidation products.
    
    The amount of effort of course depends on the extent of damage,
    but what I thought would take an afternoon, took six weekends to
    to right.
    
    Jim
    

    Is a product like Durham's Water Putty useful for repairing the
    wood?
    

    
    
    This summer I intend to build a deck that is accessible directly
    from the house.  I have talked to several people here about the
    best way to attach it to the house so that the potential for rot
    is minimized or eliminated.  I will use .40 cca pressure treated
    lumber for the deck so that portion will be OK.  The potential for
    rot that worries me is where the deck joins the house.  The house
    lumber is not pressure treated but it is stained.  Some people 
    recommend spacing the deck away from the house so that air can 
    circulate in the space and allow any moisture to evaporate.  This
    spacing is to be accomplished with large lag bolts and and an inch
    or so of washers.  The second solution is to butt the deck directly
    to the house and use flashing to keep the moisture away from the joint.
    The washer trick seems logically to be the better way to go but
    long time residents here indicate that it will still rot out due
    to snow, rain and splashing.  ("here" is in northern Vt)             
    
    Has anyone had practical, long term, experience with either solutions?
    Are there any other solutions that will prevent rot from ocurring
    at the joint?   Any help will be greatly appreciated.
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    
    Kent

    The siding won't usually rot if it cedar. However, water will tend to
    get into the house structure through this area. The framing will be in
    danger due to moisture and also (bet you didn't think of this one)
    carpenter ants who like the combination. I've seen decks literally fall
    off houses due to rot. 
    
    I have a deck mounted with the lag bolt approach and still have
    problems, although this seems like the best alternative unless you want
    to build a freestanding stucture with no attachment to the house, or a
    roofed deck (porch?). Small wood blocks will work as well as washers
    for spacing and will provide more support.  
                             
    No matter what you do (aside from the roofed version) there will be a
    substantial amount of water striking the deck and bouncing up. Since
    siding is made to deflect water going down, all this water has a
    potential to get up in the siding. Also, you usually end up with
    a large roof area dumping large amounts of water right next to the
    house line. A gutter above the deck is the only sure way to prevent
    this. 
    
    I'd space the deck as far out as resonable, install a gutter, and 
    seal the bolts where they pass through the siding. 

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Paul [Moderator]

    I'm restoring/rebuilding the front porch on our old Victorian and need
  to get some wood filler to rebuild the lower part of some of the old porch
  columns that have rotted.  A recent article in Practical Homeowner explained
  how to do this and mentioned two products, one made by Minwax which is 
  available everywhere including Spags, and another made by a company called 
  Albatron out of Chicago, which I have been unable to find anywhere.  Has 
  anybody ever seen or used this product?  Its a two part epoxy filler which 
  hardens when you mix the two.  If I can't find it I'll use the Minwax, but 
  I'd like to check out this other product.

   Thanks

   Steve

    Yep, I've used the Minwax product to repair some rotted wood.
    
    First I dug out all the rot and then used a "wood hardener" (also
    by Minwax I believe) which smelled like crazy glue dissolved in
    an alcohol base. I did 8-10 coats of that in rapid succession, only
    allowing enough time for one application to be absorbed before doing
    the next. (5-10 minutes).
    
    The 2 part wood epoxy is HARD, *MUCH* harder than the wood. Sanding
    was a pain in the tuckus, but it did come out smooth.
    
    So far, I've no complaints.
    
    Edd

    There is a manufacturing group outside Ottawa, Canada that does
    volume work with large pieces of wood as seen in park playground
    equipment; they use an auto-body filler called BONDO exclusively
    for filling holes and cracks in their finished timbers before 
    sanding and painting. I will use it in restoring my old Victorian
    pillars on the front porch; I have used in on my cars, its works
    easy, is also a two part and can be found at the KMart type stores,
    autopart stores and I am sure, Spags as well.
    
    Depending on the size of the "fill" you want to do, you may want
    to provide anchor points for the filler either small drilled holes
    that the BONDO can catch on, or pins (nails or dowels) for the same
    purpose.
    
    Good luck!

    The current issue of Old House Journal has a good article on repairing
    rotted wood with epoxy.  I can't remember if they mantioned sources,
    but they frequently do mention sources in their articles.
    
    - Mark

    re .2 funny you should mention BONDO (automotive body filler), this
    weekend I looked for the Minwax filler and could not find it, so
    I though I would try using BONDO. I have a bay window which had
    several rotted areas abount 1" x 3" and 2" deep, The bono was easy
    to work with, I only needed 1 coat since I was able to pour the
    Bondo in, It hardened in abount 10-20 minutes, I used a rough rasp
    to get the bulk off, then sandpaper. Time will tell as to how well
    it will last, but there was no great investment of time or money so
    far.                          
                                  
    BTW, I just installed a new front door, the location for the dead
    bold and reqular bolt were in a different position on the door frame.
    I used bondo to fill the old holes, It worked great with only two
    coats..                       
                                  
    Cheers,                       
                                  
    Peter,
    Toronto Can            
                                       
                                  

    RE: using BONDO
    
    	Most auto body fillers of the "bondo" type are REAL GOOD at
    	absorbing water.  So make sure that you seal it real well with
    	a coat or two (or three) of paint/stain/etc.
    
    - Mark

    The Chicago co. you mentioned is Abatron, Inc.
                                     33 Center Dr.
                                     Gilberts, IL 60136
                                     312/426-2200
    
    They will ship UPS.  They have two products.  The first is LiquidWood,
    a wood consolidant for the stuff that is crumbling in your hand.
    This is applied to firm up what wood is left, so that their WoodEpox
    filler has a good surface to adher to, though it is not a requirement.
    
    5 pint kit (both items)  $49.20
    5 quart kit              $79.20
    5 gallon kit             $195.00

    There are also several products distributed through marine supply
    stores that work extremely well.  For smaller jobs, there's a product
    called "callignum" that generally comes in small (like 4-oz up to pint)
    quantities.  It's rather expensive, but not prohibitive if the area to
    be treated is small.  For larger jobs, there's a company called Geugeon
    Brothers (spelled wrong, I'm sure, but it's pronounced Goo-John),
    Located in one of the great-lake states (that narrows it down, doesn't
    it?).  THey advertise regularly in "Wooden Boat" magazine.  The major
    selling point of both products is that they supposedly expand and
    contract the same as wood.  I've used both products, the Geugeon Bros.
    stuff extensively, in restoring a 1916 sailboat, and both work
    extremely well.  The trick is to get the item to be repaired as dry as
    possible before using the epoxy (I used a heat gun with t low power
    setting).  On dry-rot, or dried-out wet rot, the stuff is sucked right
    into the wood and the result is really hard.  You keep applying the
    stuff until it starts to soak up more slowly, and then use some kind of
    epoxy-based paste to fill the surface, if required.  (G-bros also
    carries a wide variety of thickeners for this purpose - also, they sell
    in quantities of up to 50-gallons each of epoxy & hardner).
    
    	Oh yes, as pointed out in a previous reply, "bondo" type stuff
    soaks up water like a sponge - you're much better off with some kind of
    epoxy-based product.

    
    I have a an old victorian that had some water problems with one of the 
    porches. The porch is located on the second floor. The porch is
    connected to a bedroom and one of the main beams has rotted in one
    place where the water accumulated. I don't believe that the beam has 
    rotted all the way through or I believe it would have cracked. The
    beams are all exposed on the second floor but I'll still have to rip
    part of the wall on both sides to completely expose the beam. My
    question is should I try scrapping the rot away and then use the
    liquidwood to harden the areas then use bondo to fill the hole? Or
    should I just use the liquidwood?
    
    I'm afraid that after I start taking that rotted wood off the beam
    might be worse off than when I started.
    
    Craig
    

    
    This note is also cross posted in note 3173. I thought it might
    generate further discussion on rotted beams.
    
    I bought an old Victorian recently and I found one of the exposed beams
    on the second floor is rotted. The beam is on the outside wall of the house
    and I was thinking of replacing it but I didn't know how much work that
    would involve. I live in Athol and I would appreciate if anyone could
    recommend a good carpenter to replace the beam. I was thinking of
    putting some liquidwood on the area since it is a confined area that is
    rotted but I've never dealt with anything like this before. Has anyone
    got any ideas?
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    	Craig
    

Please use note 2005 to ask for a carpenter to work on this.

Paul

I think I'm confused?  The epoxy is expensive and not for structural use.
Its designed for repairing ornamental woodwork.  If the beam is structural
and has been compromised, then putty isn't going to solve your problem.
Replacement or sistering in a strengthening member is what's in order.  One
rule of thumb to keep in mind.  Hidden rot extends three times further than
you can see.  So if you see a foot of crumbly rotted wood, the wood two feet
away is also compromised.  If the beam is exposed and you've solved the water
problem and enough of the beam is intact that you're not worried about
strength but about esthetics, then once the rot is dry, you apply the epoxy
by drilling holes and saturating the now dried out rotted wood.

    "Out of sight, out of mind" does NOT work when dealing with rot.
    I also question whether any of the epoxy, resin, whatever fixes
    will be satisfactory as a long-term solution.  I think you best
    bet is to bite the bullet tear things apart so it can be fixed
    right.  (Springtime is soon enough....)

I removed a 6x6 post - one of two which holds up a small roof covering
the front entrance to my house.  The posts sit directly on concrete.

Unfortunately, the bottom of the post is rotting out, probably a direct
effect of absorbing moisture from the concrete over the years.  I intend
to repair the post but prior to reintalling it, i would like to eliminate
the rotting problem for the future.  

Is there something that the post should sit on between it and the concrete 
to prevent the rot problem? Something like a sheet of aluminum? There isn't 
much room between the bottom of the post and the concrete landing, but i 
could lift the roof enough the get something small in there.

Thanks/james

    I can think of a couple choices. There is a standard post anchor, it's
    a galvanized metal cleat fastened to the bottom on the post. On the
    bottom is a bolt stud ,which you set in fresh concrete or in your
    case drill a pilot hole to set it in. 
    	Another fix would be to set the post a new product sold by
    Grossman's called a deck-so-port. It's a tapered 8X8 block that has a
    recess for a 4x4 and grooves underneath for drainage. These grooves are
    conveniently 1 1/2" wide to use as foundation supports for a small
    outbuilding.
    	The later would probably allow you cut off all the rot and save the
    existing post. You should anchor the block to the landing with pin of
    some sort. And to help prevent, the problem seal the bottom of the post with
    any old paint you have available. The end grain of wood wicks moisture 
    incredibly well.
    
/Jim
    

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Jerry [Moderator]

    IS there any sort of epoxy/resin sort of thing that will re-strengthen
    a rotted beam?  In remodelling an upatairs room in our house, we
    discovered after taking down the ceiling that the ridge beam is in
    pretty bad shape from insect damage.  There are places where you can
    drive a screwdriver right through the beam, at the center.  The fellow
    who's doing the work for us had some literature for some sort of resin
    that is applied by drilling holes into the beam and then filling it
    with this "stuff".  The literature seems to say that this is usable for
    structural beams.  Our contractor is going to call the company today
    and consult with them about this, but I'm wondering if anyone in here
    has had experience with this sort of thing.
    
    -ellie

<    IS there any sort of epoxy/resin sort of thing that will re-strengthen
<    a rotted beam?  In remodelling an upatairs room in our house, we
<    discovered after taking down the ceiling that the ridge beam is in
<    pretty bad shape from insect damage.  There are places where you can
<    drive a screwdriver right through the beam, at the center.  The fellow
<<    who's doing the work for us had some literature for some sort of resin
<    that is applied by drilling holes into the beam and then filling it
<    with this "stuff".  The literature seems to say that this is usable for
<    structural beams.  Our contractor is going to call the company today
<    and consult with them about this, but I'm wondering if anyone in here
<    has had experience with this sort of thing.
<    
ellie,

	There is a product called GIT-ROT as I recall that is used to prolong
the life of boats which sounds kind of like the stuff you're asking about.  
I haven't used it, but you might look in VICKI::BOATS for more information....

Al

    Yes, GIT-ROT is the right product to use.  I have used it on outside
    windowsills and it works great.  You drill some holes in the affected
    area, mix the two chemical components of GIT-ROT together, and squeeze
    it into the holes.  Of course, this only works if you can apply it in
    the direction of gravity.  If you have to squirt up into the bottom of
    the beam, the chemical will drain right out.
    
    The affected area cures hard as a rock -- probably has as much or more
    structural integrity as the original material.   You can find this
    product in the boating supplies section of a good hardware store. 
    Sells for about $10.00.  You probably won't find it at Home Depot.

    I would think that your beam is a load bearing beam for the roof and as 
such, must be structurally strong. I am not convinced that ANY filler or 
epoxy or similar item is going to restore the beam for shear strength or 
load bearing wieght. It is fine to replace non-structural bearing wood with 
such products, but load bearing??? What happens when you get 1-2' of snow 
on the roof some day? Can you say, disaster?????

    FWIW, talk to your building inspector, tell him/show him to problem. 
Yes, it will cost more $$$ to fix, and will be a pain do repair, BUT you 
will have a secure roof over your head. Should your roof collapse, you will 
suffer water/snow damage that could cost thousands more to fix and put you 
out of your house for some period of time. A ridge timber is selected for 
its strength and ability to resist shear/twist/etc. Epozyu fillers don't 
offer the fiber structure to resist such forces.

    Just my $.02 worth....

    	Vic H

    re .-1
    
    Yes, these are my feelings exactly.  I have not spoken to our
    contractor in the past few days, so I don't know what info he got from
    the company when he called them.  (He, too, was quite skeptical about
    their claims for its use in load bearing beams.)
    
    -ellie

    I received a mailer about a product called Rot Out that  is supposed to
    be an epoxy-type compound that you can use to displace wood rot and
    restore wood to a more plastic-y condition. I called the indicated
    phone number and spoke to a person who told me that this stuff is
    usually applied in phases by drilling holes, filling with the goop,
    drilling again, and so on. The level of the wood can be restored by
    mixing with saw dust.
    
    Has anyone else heard of this, and has anyone used it? If yes to the
    second, how were the results?
    
    Thanks,	
    ERIC

The current (September) issue of The Family Handyman has an article on this
and similar products, along with recommendations for their use.  The article
does mention drilling holes if the rot is deep.

I have bought some of this stuff to use on some windowsills, but haven't
actually gotten around to doing it yet.

				Steve

    	I bought some stuff from Minwax that appears to be some sort of
    resin. You need to dig out the real loose rotten stuff and then paint
    this stuff on. You can then fill with a wood filler.

    	I tried using a wood filler after using this resin and for some
    reason it wouldn't bond real well. There were plenty of nooks and
    crannies where it should have been able to.

    	I've had good luck in the past with getting plastic filler to bond
    to just about anything, so I got a gallon of plain old Bondo. I have a 
    lot of windows to do and it's only about $12 per gal. I've used this on
    wood in the past with decent results.

    	I find it much easier to work with than the wood filler. Since I was 
    painting over it, the ability to be able to stain it, like some wood 
    fillers claim, was not an issue.

    	I'm not sure how well it will hold up long term, but only time will 
    tell. I'm guessing that the reason the wood rotted out in the first place 
    was from neglect (i.e. previous owner didn't re/paint and condensation 
    sat too long). Unless the wood rots out around the Bondo, it should last 
    quite a while. At least it will never rot out in those spots again.
    
    	Ray

    If I remember there was talk about this stuff in the boats notes file. 
    I think the bottom line was it's ok but not a great solution.  It will
    probably depend on what you want to use it for.
    
    Wayne

    The name of the product referred to in the base note is GIT ROT and it
    works great, although it is expensive.  i have used it to fix window
    sills, wood panels in the screened in porch, etc.  AFter using, just
    fill in the holes you drilled with a wood filler, sand, prime, and
    paint.