Conference 7.286::home_work

    I once had a trash compactor in a condo I rented.  Personally, I
    won't waste the money for an "electric foot" to stomp down the trash.
    
    A few things I remember are
    	- the trash bag when full was very heavy
    	- glass jars and bottles are broken when compacted and the glass
    	  often rips the bag
    	- if you put garbage in it (any kind of food which spoils) it
          will smell long before it is time to put in a new bag
        - they take up a lot more room than a garbage can
	- it's not always easy to find replacement bags and deodorizer

    Carol

    	And:
    
    	1. The replacement bags (when you find them) are expensive.
    
    	2. The compactor is a great storage area for bacteria.
    
    My advise is to forget the compactor. Spend you money on something
    that you really need.
    
    Scott

    With two kids (one an adolescent), we find the compactor invaluable.
    Top of the line Whirlpool. Watch out for smaller models. Use your
    disposal for things 'made' for a disposal and your compactor for
    everything else.
    
    

I would imagine the bottom line on whether you 'need' a trashmasher is how much
garbage you create.  Myself, I prefer to seperate my trash into various types of
recyclable: paper, plastic, metal, glass, and other nonrecyclable trash, and
recycle as much as possible.  Kind of hard if you 'use' a trashmasher...

Now, on the other hand, most industrial plants *do* need their trashmashers...
but that's a different order of scale.

Jim. 

Everyone in my family uses trash compactors, and we all find them a 
great idea.  The heavy duty bags required are more expensive per 
package, but I'd bet it works out on pounds of trash.

We always get ours from Sears.  They seem dependable enough and it's 
wasy to find parts/bags/deodorizer etc. (Though to be honest, I've never
bought a can of deodorizer -- I don't put in stuff that will stink.) 

The only "neat feature" I know about is the switch that will make the 
ram go down and stay down.  (Instead of doing the normal down/up cycle.) 
If you set the ram down over night, it give the trash about 30% more 
compation.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    I bought a Kitchenaid (who was just bought out by someone (Whirpool?))
    and really like it.  It has a bigger volume than the others I saw.
    
    Aside from rinsing out things like milk cartons and cat food cans
    before throwing them in and separating out the organics (I throw
    the vegetable matter on the compost and stick stuff like chicken
    necks in a big zip-lok bag in the freezer) it has been nothing but
    goodness.  I went from three garbage bags/week to one compacted
    box.
    
    Instead of buying the liners (which are expensive) I use regular
    30 gallon trash bags.  On Saturday (EVERY SATURDAY!) I take the
    whole plastic box out of the machine, drive it to the dump, and
    pull the partly shredded bag out there.  No muss, no fuss, and my
    Saab doesn't get all mucked up from leaking bags.  
    
    If you put a couple of layers of newspaper in the bottom before you
    attach the bag, any spills get absorbed.
    
    -joet 

>   ... (I throw
>   the vegetable matter on the compost and stick stuff like chicken
>   necks in a big zip-lok bag in the freezer)

    I can see it now....

    "What's for dinner, hun?"
    
    "I'm not sure, some leftovers that I found in the freezer!"

    Great, a device to turn 20 pounds of garbage into 20 pounds of garbage.
    Only in America.
    
    - Paul
    

    Yep, another shining example of the invention of a gadget in order
    to create a need for it.
    
    The latest example is the VCR tape rewinder.  You spend $50 for
    a widget to rewind videotapes because it does a better job than
    your real VCR (?!!).

Fortunately, they're not required, so only those who want them have to 
get them.  For me it's important that 20 pounds of garbage not be 30 
quare feet of garbage as well.  You might not have that problem.  In 
general, I've always found it's better to let people make up their own 
minds about what they want to do.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    I'M PRO COMPACTOR, WE'VE HAD ONE FOR ABOUT SIX MONTHS. ITS A SEARS
    
    UNIT. WE'VE GONE FROM HAVING 3 TO 4 PLASTIC BAGS IN STORAGE WAITING
    
    TO BE PICKED UP, OR TAKEN TO THE DUMP TO ONE COMPACTED BAG A WEEK.
    
    LIKE SOMEONE SAID EARLIER, WE DO NOT PUT "SPOILAGE' TYPE OF ITEMS
    
    IN THE COMPACTOR, WE USE THE DISPOSAL, THOSE ITEMS THAT DON'T GO
    
    IN THE DISPOSAL ARE KEPT IN A PLASTIC BAG IN THE REFRIGERATOR.
    
    THE MORNING OF TRASH PICK UP, WE COMPACT THESE ITEMS, AND OUT GOES
    
    THE BAG.
    
    
    WE DON'T HAVE A LIMIT ON THE AMOUNT OF BAGS THAT CAN BE SET OUT
    
    FOR PICKUP, BUT I'M SURE AT SOME POINT SOON IT WILL. IF I LIVED
    
    SOMEWHERE WHERE THEY DID, A COMPACTOR MIGHT BE A GOOD ALTERNATIVE.
    
    THE OTHER ADVANTAGE I FIND IS CONSOLIDATION. ITS THERE AND ONLY
    
    THERE, NOT STORED ELSEWHERE WHERE I USUALLY FORGET TO LOOK OR 
    
    DON'T KNOW ABOUT.
    
    
    JIM.

    Living in the city, and having to lug trash down to the curb on
    certain days...I LOVE MINE!
    
    Before I bought it (notes classified_ads, by the way) one of we
    3 roommates would have to be practically blackmailed into taking
    out the trash.  Were talking an average of about 4-6 bags a week.
    3 guys living together make for a lot of trash!  Since the compactor
    (sears...about 8 years old) we take down 1...sometimes 2 bags a
    week.  Believe me, one trip with a 30 lb bag of trash sure beats
    multiple trips with 4 or 5 lb'ers...down 4 flights of stairs every
    week.  
    
    I always find my bags and deoderizer at Sears, and never get a smell
    from it.  My parents, who live in the White  Mountains also have
    one.  Theirs was my inspiration to buy one.  They bought it MANY
    years ago, when they first came out...also from Sears...and have
    never has a problem with it.  
    
    Jeremy, @ CTC

    What are the actual costs of compacting your garbage?'
    
    I was looking at one 'cause Sears has it on sale. The price listed
    in the catalog for the bags was $8. If that's for 1 bag it gets
    pretty costly at even just 1/week!
    
    Anyone got some annual cost figures?
    
    /tb/
    

I have a Sears compactor and was unhapy with the cost.

I now use plastic compactor bags purchased  at  the  local  True Value Hardware
store - they are designed for compactors and  are  very  heavy gauge.  I forget
exactly what I paid and for how many since I usually by a handful of boxes at a
time, however it worked out to something less that 10 cents per bag.

Dave

I've found that any good ~30gal lawn and leaf bag (1.2mil or thicker)
is fine in a compactor.  At discount stores (like spags) you can get 
these for as little as $.05 a bag/j

Re .15

Noticed  last night that  my  favorite  True  Value  store  now  only  has  the
10_bags_in_a_box size where the last time I bought, I got 100_bags_in_a_box and
I got them on sale.   Price  now  is ~$3.50 for a box of 10.  Pricy, but better
than Sears.

I also tried leaf bags, but found that they were too thin.

Dave

    We just got one of those facy Sears ones this week [not in yet].
    It cost $248 on sale.  The bags were 12 for $6.xx, or about 50 cents
    each.  We use 10 13 gall bags a week or $1.49/week for trash before
    the compactor,
    and expect to use 2 compact bags a week after cost=$1.00.
 Sears lady said bags come on sale three times a year, so we stocked
    up accordingally.

    ed
    

    How ecologically sound are compactors?  Are there any bags that are
    biodegradable, as in regular trash bags (made with corn starch?)

    ****

    My understanding is that the bags made with corn starch aren't really
    all that biodegradable.  The corn starch decomposes, leaving behind
    powdered plastic instead of plastic bags, but the plastic still doesn't
    decompose.  I don't know whether the powdered plastic represents a
    threat.  It could just be chemically inert, and therefore about the
    same as any other dirt.  Then again, ....
    
    I still consider trash compactors to be a positive contribution. 
    Landfills are filling up rapidly, at least in New England.  While some
    landfills have mega-compactors that do a great job, many just use
    steamrollers to sort of compact the trash.  Home trash compactors do a
    much better job.  Thus, by using a compactor, you'll be decreasing the
    total volume you put into the landfill, and therefore extending the
    life of the landfill.
    
    I also don't know about the long term effects of compacted trash versus
    non-compacted trash.  If you compact things too much, you wind up with
    anaerobic bacteria instead of the aerobic type, and that could make a
    difference in how the landfill decomposes over the next hundred years. 
    So the decrease in volume may just be a short or medium term benefit.
    
       Gary

    I think Sears sells "biodegrable" compactor bags  
    $8 - $10 dollars for 30 bags
    These are their cheap ones, I have found they sometimes slide into the bin
    when you compact unlike the preformed bags 
    
    Don

    We just use regular trash bags in our compactor - 30 gallon Glad
    bag type, some brands are biodegradable.  Just use a folded up
    newspaper to cushion the bottom, and push out the sides of the bag
    to fit the shape of the basket before compacting anything.  Never
    had any real problems using these, and they're a lot cheaper than
    special compactor bags.  Even if you had to double them up, they're
    still cheaper.

re: .20

>    I still consider trash compactors to be a positive contribution. 
>    Landfills are filling up rapidly,...
      
      Compactors  are,  at  best,  a  convienience  only.   Trash in the
      landfill is conpact by the bulldozer(s) at least  as  much  as  by
      your trash compactor.  

    re: .23
    
    That's not what I've been told.  The weight of the bulldozer is
    distributed over a wide area.  Furthermore, unless your bag is the one
    at the top, there's all sorts of the trash between the bulldozer and
    your bag that can absorb or divert the weight.  
    
    Think about how tightly you can squeeze the water out of a sponge. 
    Then think about the same sponge, only it's somewhere in your trash,
    and you're trying to squeeze it.  You can apply just as much total
    force (just as the total weight of the bulldozer is pretty constant),
    but you'll have a much more difficult time squeezing the sponge when
    it's mixed in with other items.  
    
    At least, that's the way I understand the difference.  Besides, isn't
    it possible for a compactor, using mechanical leverage, to generate
    more concentrated force (per square inch) than the weight of the
    bulldozer?
    
       Gary

RE: .23

You may be right, but it would surprise me.  
The compacted trash I've seen from home compactors doesn't seem
to me to be all that tightly packed.

If you don't take it to the landfill yourself, the garbage trucks do a pretty
good job at compacting the trash.

-Mike

>If you don't take it to the landfill yourself, the garbage trucks do a pretty
>good job at compacting the trash.

      Judging  by the commercial dumping rates charged in Bedford NH the
      trucks compact about 3-1.  The  rates  are  $7.50  per  yard,  not
      compacted and $21 per yard compacted.

I think that if one is worried about the ecology of dumps, the only
rational move is to chuck that energy wasting trash compactor, quit using
plastic bags (or at least, use no more than one a week), and use paper
bags to hold your trash, enclosing them in garbage cans if necessary.
Many stores can be convinced to give you your food in paper bags instead
of in plastic bags, which I've always found to be a sufficient supply.

All plastic bags release all kinds of poisons into the soil when they rot.  
The "biodegradable" ones just do it quicker, because they go to pieces
more quickly.  There's still nearly as much plastic in a "biodegradable"
plastic bag as in a normal one.  I don't know whether plastic that rots 
more quickly is an advantage or a disadvantage, but I do feel that the
right solution is to not put it into the dump in the first place.  At
least, where possible.  For wet, smelly garbage, nothing beats a
plastic garbage bag.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- The same applies to diapers, except even more so: "biodegradable" 
diapers are riddiculous, they combine plastic with untreated sewage.
A diaper service generally costs less than paper diapers, too.

    I have heard that the purpose of the "biodegradable" bags is *not* to
    have the plastic actually "biodegrade", but rather to have it turn into
    a form which is less harmful to the wildlife. Animals can end up eating
    plastic bags, which then lodge in their digestive tracks and kill them;
    seals and osprey also fall victim to things like the plastic rings used
    to hold together six packs.  So, this form of plastic does have some
    socially redeeming value.... :-)
    

    Actually .... biodegradable plastic doesn't actually bio-anything. 
    What happens is the plastic breaks down into teeny-tiny pieces so that
    you can't really see it anymore unless you really look.  Which brings
    up all sorts of new problems;
    now these little pieces of plastic get into rivers, streams, lakes,
    your drinking water, etc.  It is never 'reclaimable' should someone
    ever come up with a method of 'doing something' with plastic.  I
    suppose it's safer from a strangulation point of view, but the animals
    will end up eating a lot of this stuff now, and there's no way to
    really tell.
    I stopped shopping at Purity because they tried to put all my groceries
    in PLASTIC bags (which aside from ecological problems, also crush all
    your food when lifted by the handles), and they got kinda nasty when I
    asked for paper bags.  
    BIODEGRADABLE: Capable of being decomposed by natural biological
    processes.
    	tell me what exists in nature that is ever going to go near
    plastic????

    < Note 1596.25 by VMSDEV::HAMMOND >

    > The compacted trash I've seen from home compactors doesn't seem
    > to me to be all that tightly packed.

    Oh, I don't know, Charlie. When I first got our trash compactor, I
    was able to compact seven or eight 12 gallon plastic bags into one
    compactor bag!! That seems pretty "tightly packed", to me!!

    8^{)

    Brian

Re: Compactors -  We have one that takes paper bags. And believe me, it
			compacts!!! We can usually get the weekly trash for our
			three person family into one bag. And that bag is
			solid and HEAVY!

Re: Plastic bags - I agree with most of what has been said. But I don't think
		the bags are the biggest problems. Did any of us really have
		a problem with the old cardboard/wax milk cartons? Did we
		really need to change from glass to plastic jars (peanut
		butter for example)? Does Digital Review have to be 
		shipped in a plastic bag?, etc... How many times have
		you purchased a product which was only 1/4 the size
		of the packaging.

		I saw a show recently which stated that more than 50% of the
		typical families trash is packaging. There must be a way
		to reduce that amount. I'd like to think that I could
		stop buying from the companies who promote this unnecessary
		waste but there aren't many who don't. Besides, I will admit
		to liking most of the comforts and products that current
		times bring us. I don't consider myself a fanatical
		environmentalist. But I would like to do my part. I could
		live with buying my deodorant stick as is, without the massive
		cardboard, marketing package wrapped around it (one of my
		more obvious pieves).

Re: something to break down plastic. - Actually this one worries me. Supposedly
		some micro-organisms have been discovered in riverbeds which
		actually feed on plastic. When I heard about this, the context
		in wich it was presented was one of joy. A way to break down
		plastic had been discovered!

		I, for one, don't get real excited about the idea that something
		has mutated enough to eat the plastic at the bottom of a 
		riverbed. What else is going on down there?

							Mark

    re: .-1 .... there is more than you realize that you can do about 'not
    buying' the 'problem' trash.  If all the trash was biodegradable there
    wouldn't be nearly as many problems.  But since a good deal (most?0 of
    it is plastic, it IS a big problem.  Try these little things that each
    of us can do;
    - use cloth diapers
    - don't use disposable razors!!
    - eat at Burger King, NOT McDonalds!  If you ever notice, all of
    McDonald's large sandwiches come in those lovely styrofoam containers.
    To be exact, McD's generates enough plastic/foam waste to bury a
    football field 100 feet deep -- EVERY HOUR!! (worldwide)
    - At your work cafeteria, bring your own mug/cup for coffee/juice, AND
    request the cafeteria to use cardboard, not styrofoam.  A petition
    should be proof enough!
    - Buy your milk in cardboard containers.  The flourescent light from
    the store degrades some of the nutrients in milk anyway.
    
    	If everyone tried to make a conscious effort to try to AVOID
    plastic, it will benefit everyone ... (not that any of this has much to
    do with trash compactors anymore....(-: )
    
    	I don't consider myself an active environmentalist -- just a
    responsible parent who is trying to do SOMETHING so that my
    great-grandchildren have someplace beautiful in the world ...
                                                                

> RE: << Note 1596.31 by TURBO::PHANEUF

>    Oh, I don't know, Charlie. When I first got our trash compactor, I
>    was able to compact seven or eight 12 gallon plastic bags into one
>    compactor bag!! That seems pretty "tightly packed", to me!!

      You  have really fluffy trash!  -- or where those 8-12 bags filled
      with balloons?
      
      O.K. What you say seems believable (if on the margin), but, if you
      DIDN'T have a compactor I'll be you'd have manually stuffed  those
      bags down to half that volume of less.
      
      Actually,  this  is a pet peeve of mine with my wife and the kids.
      Nothing, absolutely NOTHING they put in the trash gets compressed.
      Its  real  quick  and  easy to fold a cereal box or milk carton so
      that it takes up maybe 80% or so less  space.   Cans  and  plastic
      bottles  can  be  easily  folded  to 1/2 the space -- less if your
      willing to stomp them.  And, when you put all those  little  waste
      can  bags  into the big trash bag, dump them in; leaving the trash
      in little bags inside big  bags  just  wastes  space  between  the
      little bags.  
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------
      
      What   I'd   like   to  know  is  how  can  we  as  consumers  get
      manufactureres and stores to stop overpackaging.  What you  and  I
      bring  home  from  the grocery or department store is amost always
      30-50% packaging.  And all of it becomes trash  sooner  or  later.
      (And  this  doesn't even touch the issue of broken fingernails and
      "paper cuts" on fingers trying to open those damn blister packs!)
      
          ...sorry if I digress....

re .33:

>    - eat at Burger King, NOT McDonalds!  If you ever notice, all of
>    McDonald's large sandwiches come in those lovely styrofoam containers.
>    To be exact, McD's generates enough plastic/foam waste to bury a
>    football field 100 feet deep -- EVERY HOUR!! (worldwide)

Not to mention the freon released to damage the ozone layer during the
manufacture of that styrofoam...

-Mike

re .33:

>    - eat at Burger King, NOT McDonalds!  If you ever notice, all of
>    McDonald's large sandwiches come in those lovely styrofoam containers.
>    To be exact, McD's generates enough plastic/foam waste to bury a
>    football field 100 feet deep -- EVERY HOUR!! (worldwide)


	Sorry for the digression, but this is too interesting/gruesome to
	pass up....  What it the source of this factoid?  Is this
	compressed, or uncompressed, foam waste?

		Josh

Actually, if there's not a Wendy's around (you should like them -- they only
wrap their burgers in foil...) I eat at McD's BECAUSE they use the foam boxes.
There's more to life than landfills. 

As far as the screed on kids/wives not compacting trash, now you may understand
the use of compactors.  It's better to flip one switch than to curse the
family.  At night, you can shut it off just as the ram hits the bottom of
its travel and give that smashed trash a "perm."  Doing that lets you squeeze
about 25% more trash in each bag.  I can barely get them to the truck...

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Re .36  The fact is from a little 'blurb' I read in our local paper a
    WHILE back.  I was so appalled at the amount of waste generated  by a
    single company, especially when the cardboard containers (or foil) work
    _just as well_ keeping your food warm.  I'm not sure if that's
    compressed or not, I don't believe the article specified.
    
    Re .37 -- I REALLY hope your joking about eating at McD's BECAUSE the
    use the foam boxes.  If you're serious I don't think I want to know.
    
    re .a-few-back  about getting companies to get rid of the packaging;
    	Maybe we could start a note or 'petition' or something here, and
    all those who share our concerns could write in it, and then we could
    send it off to the companies, or to our favorite politician, or SOMEONE
    (-:  
    
    A Question;  If bio-degradable trash is supposed to bio-degrade as it
    is exposed to earth and bacteria, what happens to all the trash
    crunched up in the compactor??  Does it take years longer to break down
    because it has to 'break up' first??  I've always wondered about this.
    
    

re .38:

>    A Question;  If bio-degradable trash is supposed to bio-degrade as it
>    is exposed to earth and bacteria, what happens to all the trash
>    crunched up in the compactor??  Does it take years longer to break down
>    because it has to 'break up' first??  I've always wondered about this.

Well, as mentioned elsewhere in this note, by the time trash gets buried in the
landfills it's compressed quite a bit anyway, between the garbage trucks, the
bulldozers and the weight of all the dirt/trash it's buried under, so I don't
think it makes that much difference.

-Mike

A couple of weeks ago i was listening to program on Recycling/land fills, etc.
on the PBS radio show All Things Considered.   There was a guy on the 
show talking about how his job is to go out into dumps and excavate them 
to see how things decompose over time.  

Anyway, he said that he has found pieces of newspapers dated more than 20 
years ago and wrapped in those same papers were pieces of lettuce and meat!  
After 20 years they had still not decomposed.  His point was that in 
landfills, the conditions are not normal so 'biodegradable' materials
which indeed do degrade in a couple of years under normal conditions, do not
degrade even after many years when buried underground in a landfill.  
Landfill conditions are not normal.

The show was very interesting.  A guy who runs a recycling plant for 
Macdonalds Corporation was also interviewed on the show.
Apparently, Mickey D recycles around 20 percent of their styrofoam containers.

-jim

re < Note 1596.40 by CIMNET::MIKELIS "Just browsing through time..." >

>Macdonalds Corporation was also interviewed on the show.
>Apparently, Mickey D recycles around 20 percent of their styrofoam containers.

	Into what?   Milkshakes????  :-)

		Josh