Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    
    I would like to mention an alternative to silicone caulk. My 
    brother-in-law, who is into construction, swears by it. It's 
    called Phenoseal (the spelling may be inaccurate but close).
    You can pick it up at our favorite building supply center,
    Grossmans, for about $4.50. It does everything silicon will 
    do and more. The clincher is that it's easier to work with 
    and you are able to clean it up easily with a wet rag. It's
    good stuff and worth a try.
    
    wayne
    

    I used Phenoseal a lot a couple years back but quit using it. Contrary
    to all its labels it get hard as a rock after a few months, then
    cracks away. I face having to re-do my entire summer home where
    I used the stuff.
    
    My all time favorite sticky goo is Sika Flex. It was originally
    made for the road construction industry to caulk the expansion joints
    in concrete bridges. It flexes over 100%, stands up to being driven
    on, salted, etc. Sika sells it mostly through commercial outlets,
    not to the homeowner market. They do sell it to the boatbuilding
    trade, James Bliss stores in the Boston area carry it. They advertise
    in Woodenboat magazine. I have used lots of the stuff in boats and
    have no complaints at all.
    
    Ron

                                                       
    	Just thought I'd pass some along some info on caulking,
    
    	I recently had a chance to do some testing on GE SILICONE II
    caulking as part of my work on sealants for plastic packages.  We
    bonded plastic parts together with different sealants and exposed
    them to some pretty severe environments.  The samples were then
    pulled apart with an Instron tester to measure degradation of the
    bond.  The GE SILICONE II bond strengths did not change more than
    20% through the testing.
    	The samples were exposed through three environments: 500 hours
    of 85 deg C / 85% relative humidity, 500 hrs 150 deg C temperature storage,
    and 1200 hours of -65 deg C to 150 deg C temperature cycling.  The
    samples were tested periodically.  At the end of the testing the
    GE SILICONE II was still soft and pliable.
    	I've always thought this stuff was dynamite caulking, but now
    I have proof.  If it can survive these tests I am confident that
    it will last a long time in your house.
    						=Ralph=
    
    	Standard Disclaimer:  I am not connected with this product or
    GE.

sounds like you and consumer reports agree

Try paint stripper.  I got some on window caulk by mistake and it 
softened it right up.

...bill

Uh, be careful with that heat gun.  The temperature difference can easily
crack the glass.

	If it's putty, you might be able to soften it with a
	soldering gun.  Maybe a soldering iron would act like a
	hot chisel.

	If it's caulking, some chemical like acetone might soften
	it.  Maybe alcohol will work, without attacking the paint,
	and with reduced lethality to the operator.

	I've cracked several panes with a propane torch.  It
	softens putty nicely, but tends to set the window frame
	on fire.  Bummer.

    Are caulking materials compatable? 
    
    My task, should I want to stay in my house [and not be nagged out
    of it], is to recaulk the old calking. I understand to do the proper
    job would be to scrape out the old stuff and redo the caulking with
    the newer silicon [paintable] caulk.
    
    The house has a latex/putty texture caulk [I'm not sure]. The house
    is 13 years old and some of the stuff is seperating. I found that
    if I cut the tip of the Si-caulk tube, I can fill in the cracks.
    Am I getting into more trouble because the stuff is of different
    chemical make up. Another way to ask the same question is: Is the
    Si-caulk compatible with latex-caulk?
    
    Thanks,
    
    cal hoe

    You could use the GE silicon caulk II which they say will stick
    to anything. I'm not sure if you can paint it though I have Al siding
    and painting wasent part of the job so havent tryed it.
    I have used it and it does stick to EVERYTHING not to mention that
    the fumes irritate your eyes even outside. BTW-it hasent seperated
    after 1.5 years.
    
    -j
    

    re -.1: The tube says it can be painted.
    
        mitch

    I have used the Silicon II stuff and it seems great.  You have to
    watch this stuff though.  If you start using your fingers to get it
    into the right places, it will turn on you and you'll be surprised
    where you find it the next time you shower.

    For various reasons, I'm going to replace a crawlspace access door
    with a home-made unit made of PT lumber.  My only problem is the
    door.  This will be similar in shape to a Bilco steel door and my
    problem is how to keep rain from coming through the door.
    
    My idea is to use deck flooring (1" true by 6) that has a chamfer
    on the edges and caulk with clear silicone along each joint.
    
    Do you think this will work, i.e., will the silicone "take" to the
    PT lumber?  Are there other suggestions?  This is close to a new
    deck so I want it to blend in.
    
    Thanks,
    Pete
                            ___ silicone calk in joints
                           /
     ____________________**____________________
    /                    \/                    \
    \____________________/\____________________/
    

    One better technique I can think of is to take a router with a slot
    cutter and cut a slot in either side of the boards.  Then insert
    a strip of caulk made by 3M I think for doing windows.
    
    Don't use a router table since the router will follow any bows or
    dips in the wood if used 'freehand'.  You could also mill a 1/4"
    slot and insert 1/8" masonite coated with silicone caulk.  Or coat
    it with exterior waterproof glue and then caulk as you show in the
    picture.  The caulk will take to the PT ok but may be unsighlty
    and won't take a stain.  I'd use GE silicone II CLEAR.

    Another method is to mill tongue and grooves into each board.
    This would be nearly watertight without the caulk and would add 
    strength to the structure.
    
    It probably cost about $10-15 for the milling. Coldwell's in Bolton
    will do small jobs like that while you wait.

    
       If this door is just an access to a crawl space and won't be
    seen from the inside just do all the calking and waterproofing on
    the inside part of the door where is won't be noticed at all.
       This will be alot easier then getting fancy and spending more
    money.
    
                                                 John C.
    

    Thanks!  The T&G idea appeals to me and it's worth a little to
    accomplish the effect I want.  I deal with Coldwell's regularly
    and will check them out today.
    
    Again, thanks.
    
    Pete

    I uses Silicon II, and tried painting it -- Oils stick to it OK,
    Latex won't stick worth a darn!

I'm really surprised I haven't seen this one yet.  What do people use for caulk?
Whenever I see a display I'm very intimidated.  There are usually around 6-10
different types ranging from silicone to something else.  Some is clear, some 
is white.  Reading the labels it sounds like they all work in most places.

For example, if I'm going to caulk around white windows, should I use the white
non-paintable and not paint it when I do the trim or get the paintable stuff
and paint it?  If I do the former, I'll no doubt get some paint on it and it'll
probably be a different shade of white.  However, how well does paint really 
adhere to the paintable stuff?  and what if I'm using a heavy pigmented stain?

What about caulking around a chimney?  Is silicone appropriate here too?

-mark

    I found that Latex caulk works for me as far as caulking windows
    and doors,etc. It takes paint very well and is easy to clean up
    and is durable. Silcone, besides being very exspensive, is messy
    and hard to clean up. It is good for gluing stuff together(aquariums)
    and where you need a good water tight seal but it doesn't take paint
    very well. There are other less expensive oil based caulks that
    work fairly well but they can be messy also.
    
    
    Bob                                         

    
    	I ran some tests on GE silicone II as part of some chip packaging
    experiments about a year ago.  We thermocycled packages sealed with
    the caulking from -80�C to +125�C for about one month.  When I examined
    the caulking it was soft and ductile and the packages were still
    sealed.  Needless to say I *only* use GE silicon II.
    	Remember that silicone caulk forms millions of little 'pits'
    for bacteria to grow in.  If you are doing bathroom, kitchen, or
    indoor work, get the bathroom caulk with the fungicide in it.
    	Silicone caulk is tough to paint but comes in clear.  It runs
    about $5/tube but can be found on sale for $3.
    
    					=Ralph=

    GE Silicone II, which is on sale this week at Rich's department
    store in Marlboro, Ma.  The price is $2.99 with a $2 mail-in rebate,
    for a final cost of $.99.  
    
    I usually buy 2 or 3 tubes of the clear stuff whenever this is on sale.
    
    					Steve

    
    I have used white DAP Latex-Silicone (highly rated by Consumer Reports)
    and have been satisfied so far.  I just primed over it and have
    yet to paint over it.  I'll know more in a few years.
    
    Phil

I get physically ill breathing the fumes from silicone based caulk.
Even after it's cured for days or weeks, I start feeling bad if I
get close enough to smell it.  So I don't care how good it is, I
won't use the stuff.  If you have never used silicone caulks, you
might want to test yourself before buying a whole bunch of the stuff.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I vote for DAP latex-silicone too as mentioned in .4. I've used
    it and it is great. You get the best of both worlds - the ease and
    paintability of latex plus the durability of silicone. Also I was
    in the glazing buisiness for a while and we found that DAP put out
    good glazing and caulking products in general.
    
    Bob
                                                  

    I had a long chat with the painter on my house over caulking as
    we were splitting the work. He recommended clear calk after painting
    around the windows, normal caulking elsewhere. There are a lot of
    problems cutting in when trim paint is a different color than the
    siding and caulk is in the seam. (of course you can break at the
    outside corner,also). The caulk comes out initially in a cloudy
    white but when it fully dries in a few days it is clear and virtually
    invisible. I used it aroun all doors, windows and other trim.

My personal vote is GE Silocone II also.  As far as price, it's usually under $3
at Spags and I'm only looking at a half a dozen tubes or so.  As far as odor, I
kind of like the smell.  Actually I'm just kidding.  In a closed room this stuff
does indeed stink.  Outside, no problem...

-mark

    When do you know when you need to caulk windows?  How often do most
    people do this job?  I assume the caulk goes on the outside of the
    window.  This is a job we have not done yet.  Thanks.

    I could have asked this question in any one of several notes, but
    chose this one.
    
    I have vinyl siding and wooden thermal-pane windows.  The windows
    seem a bit drafty, partly because they don't have storm windows
    on them, which I eventually want to install.  
    
    However, the question I have is "should the outside of the windows
    be caulked?"  I ask because it's hard to tell if they have been
    because of the vinyl strip against the windows which the clapboards
    are inserted into.  There doesn't appear to be any caulking under
    the sill.  Should there be?
    
    Thanx for any/all replies.
    
    	Ted

    Another question regarding window caulking for all of you:
    
    We have a bay window and it has a storm window. There are 3 panels,
    the storm window for the middle panel is not removable. In other
    words, the two panels on each side, you can open them for air.
    
    The problem is condensation of moisture in the winter. Last winter
    (our first winter) there was water trapped in between the middle window
    and it's storm window. Worse yet, those water was frosen and started
    to accumulate and forming icicles.
    
    This spring, I examined the sill and it is rotted on the bottom.
    The condensation is back again last week. My question is that does
    the water coming from the interior (inside the house) or the exterior,
    by the way, the water condense on the storm window facing inside.
    
    What should I do to stop the water condensation problem? If the
    moisture is from the house, should I caulk the bay window to seal
    it tight or should I use weather stripping? it seemed to me, from
    inside, the window is sealed except the bottom side which has a little
    wider gap and I can insert a vinyl stripped but not quite.
    
    Any suggestion?
    
    Thanks in advance.
    -Grace

    Caulk, seal tightly the inside.
    
    The moisture is forming on the inside of the storm window cause
    that's the cold surface and reaches the dew point first.  I had
    the same problem.  By sealing the storm I aggravated the situation.
    
    You can't seal the area enough to prevent moisture laden air between
    the windows.  If you did, you'd have manufactured a thermopane window.
    Since you can't remove the moisture, the secret is to let it go
    outside.  There are weep holes at the bottom of a storm that allow
    drainage if needed, and just the right amount of air transfer to
    the outside.  What happens is as the air is cooled it holds less
    moisture.  If you just continue to cool the air with the same moisture
    content you get condensation (your problem).  If you move some of
    this air outside and some of the outside in, you lose some heat
    but drop the moisture content down as well.
    
    Here's the balance.  Too much air transfer, too much heat loss -
    you no longer have an insulating storm window.  Too little air
    exchange, too much moisture.
    
    If you check along the bottom of the window, you'll most likely
    find some clogged (with rotted wood and dirt), weep holes.  Clear
    these out and you'll find most of the moisture problem fixed.
    
    You're still gonna have to replace (or fix) the rotted sill someday.

    
    	Hi,
    
    		Does anyone have any advice for removing the caulk from
    	a tub? I'm assuming it's best to remove the old caulk before
    	recaulking. Is my reasoning okay? 
    
    	Thanks,
    	John M

    Bathtub caulk is an invention of the devil!  (But ya gotta have it!)
    Depending on what kind you tried last time you recaulked the tub, you
    may be able to pull the stuff out with an old screwdriver, or you may
    need to scrape it off with a razor-blade scraper.  If you don't get rid
    of at least most of the old stuff, and clean up the surfaces, the new
    caulk won't stick very well, and you'll be doing the job again that
    much sooner.  The tape stuff and little half-round tiles you can buy to
    use in place of caulking never worked for me - they very quickly get
    detached from the wall side of the joint, I suppose because the bathtub
    expands and contracts when it is filled with hot water.
    
    /Charlotte        

re .5:

It's not so much the heat as the weight of the water.  It's recommended that
you fill your tub (with cold water, unless you're planning to take a bath)
before recaulking.  When you drain the tub, the caulk will compress.

     Re .5:
    
    	I've never replaced the caulk and I estimate that it's over
    fifteen years old. I tried using a razor knife but the old caulk
    has hardened too much for this approach. I think I'm going to 
    try and chisel it out. This ought to be fun! Argh!
    
    -John M.
    
    

    I want to caulk around the baseboards of our bathroom where the
    linoleum meets the wall.  We had some water leak through the crack
    there and stain the kitchen ceiling.  What is the best type of caulk to
    use for this?
    
    							John

        What's the best latex-paintable caulk?  (This is for a house
        exterior application.)

        Bob

    Re: .6
    
    I am very fond of the Red Devil "Lifetime" acrylic latex caulk.
    It "sets up" quickly, and the clear version is almost invisible
    when dry (though it is milky when applied).  It seems to
    paint well.  However, any of the name-brand caulks should
    do well, especially those with "25 year guarantee" and/or
    "twice the silicone" (even with silicone, these are paintable).
    
    				Steve

    Re: .5
    
    Any acrylic latex caulk should be fine for this.  Only if it's
    around a tub might you want to use a special tub-n-tile caulk.  I
    don't recommend silicone for this.
    
    					Steve

    
    I also use the Red Devil 25yr caulk, buy I've noticed that as it sets
    up hard the gap will tend to reopen after a while - typically where the
    siding meets the trim.  
    
    What I'm looking for is a mastic caulk that does not set hard, but
    forms a skin over which you can paint.  Underneath it retains a
    putty-like consistency that expands & conracts with the gap.
    
    Is there a product like this available in the US?
    
    Colin
     

    Re: .8
    
    Why don't you recommend a silicone caulk for around the tub?  I just
    bought two tubes of GE Silicone II but I haven't opened them yet.
    
    							John

    RE: GE Silicone II
    
      FWIW, I caulked some basement windows last September with GE Silicone
    II and last week, while checking for things to paint, I found the caulk
    to be soft still.  It was so soft that when I scraped it with a fingernail,
    it became embedded underneath.  I would have expected it to be more
    elastic rather than having the paste type consistency that it actually
    had.
                                                                   -Jeff

    RE. .11/Jeff
    
    The reason why it did not harden correctly is most likely because it
    was old.  They've supposidly made improvements so that this won't
    happen any more.  There is an 800# on the tube, I beleive, that you can
    call... they'll send you out a new tube.
    
    Same thing happened to me(w/ the old stuff), and the new tube that they 
    sent out, worked great.
                     
    -John
    

    I didn't recommend silicone for the baseboard caulking, because
    it's not paintable.  You could use silicone around a tub, but I've
    come to the position that in most uses, silicone has more drawbacks
    than advantages over modern latex caulks, if nothing else than in
    the ease of application.
    
    Yes, I do find that in large gaps, the Red Devil latex caulk can
    pull away as it cures completely, but I don't have this problem
    with small gaps and a bit more caulk fixes the problem.
    
    				Steve

    It seems like I'm constantly removing and re-caulking around the tub,
    where it meets the surround.  I've used name-brand caulk (GE Silicone
    II, etc., etc.), yet, after only a couple of months, it develops cracks
    all along the base.  I remove the old, let it dry throughly, then
    re-caulk, but it only lasts 2 months.  I'll try the suggestion in .6,
    about filling the tub before re-caulking, but is there anything else
    I can try?  (I've used the self-adhesive strip before, but that didn't 
    last much longer.)  Any secrets out there?  Thanks.
    

    You must have more than the usual amount of movement in the tub -
    what kind of tub is it and what type of support does it have?  How
    big a joint are you filling?
    
    			Steve

    Steve,
    
    The fiberglass tub feels/seems/appears solid; it's the three piece
    tub surround that seems to be giving me the problem.  The joint
    isn't _that_ big, maybe 1/4 - 3/8 of an inch.  One thing that may be
    of note...it only cracks on the front side/corner, where the tub spout
    is, (and coincidently, where the kids face when they're in the tub
    playing).  The back side/corner holds up fine.  I doubt there's a leak
    behind the wall, but I'll check it after pulling off the wainscotting
    (my access panel :-)).
    
    If the joint seems too big, it there a type of water-proof packing/filler
    (that won't crack) that I can use prior to caulking?  Again, thanks.
     

That doesn't seem too big, but perhaps the surround is flexing and pulling
apart the seal.

			Steve

    
    
    Hummmmmm.......sounds like something is loose.  Check the tub
    by putting a level on it and walking around from one side to
    the other.    I would think the silicone sealer wouldnt crack
    unless something is pulling thing apart????
    
    JD
    

    	It may be difficult at this point but check to see if the sheetrock
    was run right to the tub. If it was, no amount of caulking is going to
    solve the problem. There should always be a gap left between the
    sheetrock and the tub when it's installed. If not, the sheetrock will
    eventually wick moisture up into it, expand, and push the caulking out.
    
    	Ray

    Well, I checked it last night.  The wallboard (actually greenboard, the
    water-resistant stuff) appears secure, and as best I could tell, far
    enough awat from the tub.  The tub surround, however, isn't snug to the
    wall; I can push on it, and it flexes near the bottom, right at the
    joint.  Evidently, that's my problem.  Now, is there an easy way to
    fix/stop the flexing, short of removing/replacing the surround?  Could
    I do something as simple as locate the studs, and drill a couple of
    pilot holes, and screw the surround to the wallboard/studs with lighter 
    (almond) colored screws, and do my best to patch/caulk over the heads?
    
    Or is there an easier fix?
    
    Thanx.
     

    If you can get a calking gun nozzle up and behind the tub surround, put
    a bead of liquid nails adhesive behind there. This should spot the
    movement and allow more live out of the silicone seal.
    
    Or better yet, to be sure to get up the wall a little, away the the
    tub's lip and on the wallboard, add a short piece of clear plastic tubing,
    I'd guess about 3/8" i.d. should do it. 
    
    Be sure to get to tight fit to the nozzle or its a big mess. In fact,
    put cardboard in the tub and have clean rags handy.


    /Jim 

    
    Something that might work better than liquid nails is the expanding
    foam sealant (Great Stuff).  This has a very thin tube nozzle that you
    might be able to bend and slip up behind the surround.  The foam will
    exapand to fill any gap and also glue the surround to the base.  Excess
    can be cut away with a hobby knife when dry.
    
    If there's no way you can get the tube up behind, you can drill small
    holes in the surround and insert the stuff through the holes.  These
    small holes can be patched with a coloured tub-repair compound and you
    won't even notice them afterwards.  Use masking tape to prevent the
    drill point from wandering.
    
    This foam is pretty good for filling over-large gaps before caulking -
    as long as all movement is cured first.  It's VERY adhesive & messy so
    protect the tub and rub a small amount of grease or silicone around the
    work area to prevent the foam sticking where you do not want it.
    
    Colin
    
                      
    

    When recaulking, fill the tub so the weight of the water pushes the tub
    down and the gap is as wide as possible. After curing, let out the
    water and the caulk will compress in the gap.

    Hi,
    
    I'm in the process of gutting my downstairs bath.  This was supposed to
    be a light clean up.  Once I got started I just decided to do the
    entire thing.  The previous owner was a real trip.  As I have gone from
    room to room updating and repairing I have repaired or replaced is
    expert craftmanship, sometime in disbelieve.  I can't imagin why he did
    some of the stuff.
    
    Anyway, back to the bathroom.  Everything is going, the only thing that
    is not is the tub enclosure.  The problem is the guy trimmed the thing
    in 1 by 3 pine, nailing the pine into the wallboard and calking the
    pine to the enclosure.  I have removed the pine and now I have this
    calk from hell that I can't get off the enclosure.   Does anyone have
    any suggestions on how to get this stuff off without marking up the
    enclosure?   It's not the silcon calking.  This stuff is tough.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
    
    
    

    
    Mark,
    
    Have you tried putting some heat (e.g., hair dryer or propane torch)
    on the caulking?
    
    If the previous owner's work is that amazing/impressive, you might
    be interested in documenting it note 178 (Why did they ever do THAT?)
    
    JP

    
    A few months back my local True Value hardware store had a caulk
    removing product in its brochure. I picked up a bottle just for the
    halibut; haven't used it yet, so can't provide a testmonial.
    

    Thanks, at least it sounds like there is some hope.  Sounds like they 
    actually have stuff on the market that is supposed to do the job.  
    I'll try the hair dryer and see how that works.  I wouldn't want to use 
    a torch, although at this point a small controlled burn might be the 
    easiest way out!
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Mark
    
    
    

    I just recaulked the tub/wall in my bath.  I removed all the old caulk
    first with a can of "Goof-Off".  It's a very strong petroleum product
    that comes in a can about the size of a can of lighter fluid.  It's
    susposed to removed dried Latex paint, crayon marks, shoe polish etc.
    There are two similiar products on the market, one DOES NOT remove
    chaulk so read the label closely.
    	To use the product, first open a window, then use put some of the
    "goof-off" on the chaulk, wait 1-2 min and scratch the stuff off.  It
    really works but the fumes will get to you in no time.  For thick
    layers of chaulk, it'll take several tries to remove all the chaulk.
    It was MUCH easier than digging out the chaulk with a knife or using
    the heat/scrape method.
    the scraping 

    I saw Goof-Off at SPAGS just the other day.  I'll pick some up.  I
    can't believe I ripped the bathroom apart.  It wasn't supposed to be
    this big of a job.  Just a light clean up!  Right!
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
    

    
    Re .5: Reminds me of the time I started with the intention of replacing
    a sink that had cracked when a bottle of perfume fell into it from the
    medicine cabinet...
    
    ...and wound up relacing the sink, faucet, counter top, medicine cabinet,
    associated lighting and wallpaper.
    

Just be careful of what else you get Goof-Off onto.  It will eat carpet
backing and will likely damage vinyl flooring.

				Steve

    Re: .7  No problem.  I ripped the floor up yesterday.  I think I'm going to
    pull up the subfloor as well.  Pretty much a shell at this point.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
      
    
    

    .6:
    
    All in one day?  Gee, you're good!
    
    Dick

    I've done that much demolition in a day...
    ... and taken 15 years to put it back together.  :-)
    
    ed

    Any one out there have a good suggestion for good sealing of a caulking
    cartridge to hold it for future use?
    
    I always have lots of extra caulking left over on any project that I
    have done.  Whether it is 1/2 tube left over from a bathroom job, or
    1/2 tube left over when buying 3,4,5, or 6 tubes when doing a large
    job.
    
    I have tried to place a large headed framing nail in hole at the end of
    the cartridge, and tape over, or tape by itself.  No matter which way, 
    the caulking is usually bad the next time I go to use it.
    
    I like to buy the large squeeze tubes, when available, however most of 
    the caulk that I end up buying is in the carts. that fit into a
    caulking gun.  Very few large squeeze tubes on the market.  It is these 
    thay I find it difficult to store.
    
    Any one have an idea that has been successful for them?  Or am I the
    only one that has too much Yankee frugality?
    

I've taken to using a set of screw-on tips that have a sealing cap.  
Reuseable, available at places like Home Depot for a buck or so.

				Steve

    How about a golf tee?

    or a good ol' #2 pencil?

DAP now gives you a cap with each tube of their higher quality caulk.  It 
can be used to cap a partially used tube and it has a apendage that be used 
to smooth corners (saves your finger).  I believe you can also buy them 
separately.