Conference 7.286::home_work

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Note 148.0                         Pond guy                              1 reply
STAR::FARNHAM "Plain thinking,but on another plane." 22 lines   8-MAY-1986 12:10
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    We're in the process of doing some landscape design for a new home,
    and one of the problems we're wrestling with is out pond. It's little
    more than an overgrown puddle, 60' l x 20' w x 2' d, but provides
    a nice landscape accent. 
    
    What we want to do is prevent it from going dry in the summer (2'
    deep in May = empty in August?). What are our alternatives? Dredge
    it (how done? how expensive?)? Line it (with plastic?)? How does
    one line a pond of that size which is currently filled with water?
    Should we wait through the summer, and, if it DOES go dry, line
    it then for next year?
    
    Finally, how do we handle the banks? Our lot is on an old sand pit,
    and the pond is in an excavation, so the banks are steep (60 degrees
    in one spot) and high (4' at the worst). Grass, mulch, ground cover,
    or what?
    
    "Fill it in" is not an answer I'll listen to.
     
    Oh, and what about bug control?
    
    

    What is the source of water for the pond?  If it's the level of
    the local water table, lining or otherwise sealing the bottom of
    the pond won't do anything for you.  The only solution will be
    to dig the pond deeper, so it's below the lowest level of the local
    water table.
    Any contractor ought to be able to dig the pond out for you, but
    you may run into permit problems (wetlands preservation an all that)
    not to mention problems with your septic system if it's nearby.
    I don't know where you are, but two pretty good contractors I know
    about are Nat Hawkins Jr. in Lancaster and Steve Perry in Harvard
    (I think).  Your local county extension agent might be able to help
    you with pond design, too, probably for free.
    
    I've got a similar puddle in my back yard - a little bigger, but
    basically a puddle.  Insect pests are taken care of by frogs and
    dragonflies.  Get frogs and dragonflies!  I have very few mosquitoes
    around my place.  If the pond goes dry in the summer, both frogs
    and dragonflies will probably desert you, so you'll have to address
    that issue first.
    
    Steve

    re: .1
    
    Why won't lining a pond whose source is groundwater help me? I know
    that it won't prevent evaporative loss, but it will prevent seepage
    out through the soil when the water table drops, no?
    
    

 
    Before you go altering that pond you had better check with the
    local Conservation Commision. In many states you can not alter
    an area that could be considered a wet land. Your pond may come
    under that heading.                              
    
    dave

    
    re: .3
    
    Already done.
    

    If the source is ground water, a lining will prevent the water from
    welling up fron the ground when the water table rises above the
    bottom of the pond. (More likely, you will wind up with a lining
    that floats on top of the water as the table rises.)
    
    If the pond fills from a small stream, the lining will prevent seepage
    from drying the pond when the stream slows. AS to getting the lining
    in, wait 'till August ;-)

    re: .4
    
    Could you tell us what criteria the conservation comission uses
    in determing what is and isn't a wetland?
    
    -joet

    
    The immediate criteria is whether the land is already listed as
    such. That is, when we enquired, no decision was made; a list was
    checked. As to where the list came from -- ???
    

    
    HI, I used to go to a coffee house in Bolton called the Freedom
    Farm...they had a pond and enlarged it to a nice swimming hole.
    I'm not sure of the process (I know you don't want it as a larger
    pond) but if you call Paul Wetherbee on Harvard Road in Bolton,
    I'm sure he may be of some help...Tell him I said hi!

    
    
    	Unless you have a constant flow of water from a brook or stream
    you are going to have to filter the water or it will go bad and
    smell, attract bugs and probably be a health hazard. If you did
    have a stream that you could divert you would still have problems.
    Unless the pool is deep enough weeds and plants will take over the
    whole pond. The pool has to be deep enough so that the sun will
    not reach and feed growth on the bottom. You also should consider
    stocking the pond with SUCKER fish to keep it clean. 
    	
    
    	-Steve-
    

    A clay lining is indeed the old-fashioned way of making a pond.
     It's supposed to be a lot of work.   More common these days
    is a rubber lining, or a concrete lining.
    
    Ducks like to drill in the mud -- I don't think a rubber lining
    would survive.
    
    Ducks will put a fair amount of excrement into your pond -- you
    will need some other creatures (such as fish) and some plants
    (which the ducks will eat) to balance things out.  I don't
    think a filter will do the job alone.
    
    If you can, make the pond deep enough *somewhere* so that it
    won't freeze solid.  The little critters that will live there
    will appreciate it.
    
    
    			George

	On the subject of books for ponds, ORTHO has a book on landscaping
	that covers ponds/pools with a little detail.  Good for ideas 
	anyways.  I agree with previous two replies consider having some
	fish and plants to help balance things, after all you are creating
	a small ECOSYSTEM.  Since you are talking relatively small volume
	I would also recommend that the pump outlet be directed through
	some kind of waterfall this will aerate the water for the fish
	and also keep the water moving which will aid the filtering
	process, i.e. keep down the smell/stagnation.

	Good luck - Randy

    You can find a lot of information on ponds at your local pet store.
     a large store like Boston Pet, near Lechmere Square in Cambridge,
    keeps liners in stock.  According to what I have read, Tetra makes
    liners in several sizes.  They are all guaranteed for ten years
    regardless of inhabitants.  Using this liner would make this an
    easy DIY with excavation equipment.
    
    The cost will probably be around $100, depending on the size of
    the hole.  As far as filtration is concerned, in large ponds no
    filter is required when keeping goldfish and koi.  It would be
    hard to believe that ducks could out drop goldfish pound for pound.
    A balance between plants and animals has to be struck.  I wonder
    if there are any green plants that a duck won't eat.  Alqae would
    be eaten by your ducks as fast as it can grow.  If your pond is
    at least three feet deep fish can survive the winter, of course
    they will need hidding places to avoid the ducks.
    
    Last but not least, I've always wondered about your liability if
    you have a pond that kids can wander into ??  I don't know if local
    zoning laws would require a fence. 
    
    good luck Ron
    
    

    	A couple of other considerations; I have a man made pond in
    my back yard which is mainly fed by all the storm drains on the
    street and partly from the water table. The water table, so I've
    been told, Is only 5 to 10 feet below the surface. I've olny been
    living there for two years and have yet to see it dry up but it
    has come close when we have not gotten any rain for 3 weeks in the
    summer.
    	What are you going to use for a water sorce? Because my pond
    is so close to the water table I've considered putting in a shallow
    well to provide water when there is a lack of rain.
    
    	Filtering? My pond gets pretty scuzzy and breeds bugs like crazy.
    I put a few fish in it but they have more than they can handle.
    Plus I don't know if they will survive the winter. the pond gets
    pretty low and freezies sold. I might have to dig it deep to hold
    more water.
    
    	Fence the yard/pond? If it is man made and the water ever gets
    over 2 feet deep the pond or yard has to be fenced. Building codes
    treat it like a swimming pool and you have to protect the little
    ones from falling in. This can be big bucks.
    
    	If you go ahead and put one in. please post info here. I'm trying
    to find info on filtering and wildlife which will survive the winter
    and keep it clean.
    
    				Good luck
    
    				...Dave
    
    	

    Let's say you have a stream or creek and you just want to widen
    it for a pond.  Aren't there a lot of implications regarding the
    environmental agencies (aka DEQE)?  Wouldn't the town conservation
    committee get involved?
    
    I have a man-made pond behind my house and it's now officially "wetlands"
    and hence all protective covenants apply.
    
    -al

    Stocking with piranha should eliminate neighborhood youngsters from
    wandering in.

    RE .7
    Might not help them from wandering *in*, but it will sure keep them
    from getting *out*.

We're thinking about doing something similar -- we have a "wet" area alongside 
our soon to be driveway.  It's dry now, but in the Spring it was about 3-4 
feet deep.  This gradually dried up, only in the last couple of weeks getting 
entirely dry.  We really can't (wouldn't want) to fence the area in, and the 
idea of using a liner and/or filter is pretty impractical, the area is about 
100 ft by 50 ft.  If we just scoop it out till we either get 6-7 feet down or 
hit ledge (likely), will we have any trouble keeping it wet?  Our perk hole 
was about 100 ft away, and we hit groundwater this spring at 4'.

Any suggestions?

			Andy

    	Most likly you will have to fence it in. Check local codes.
    I HAD TO fence my pond (ie entire back yard) in. The closer you
    can get to the water table the better. My pond veries from 5-1 foot
    depending on rain & water table level. Right now it is half its
    normal 70 foot length and only about a foot deep at its deepest.
    We havn't had any substantial rain in over 3 weeks. Pryer to that
    it was about as full as I've seen it from all the flooding we had.
    	I'm planning on digging down a little deeper to keep it more
    in the water table.
    
    	You might also check local code regarding this being wet lands.
    If it stays wet for more than ? months out of the yaer it may be
    considerd wet lands and you need all kinds of permits to do any
    thing.
    
    					...Dave
    

    Has anyone out there ever put in a pond or had a natural pond on
    there property?  Our property (5 acres) has a general slope down
    to one corner where it levels off in an area that is usualy like
    a swamp most of the year.  The trouble is that the water will run
    off into the street before it gets more than 6" deep.  We are thinking
    about having a friend with a backhoe dig out that area to form a
    year round pond.
    
    There are a few things that we are wondering about:
    
    1) How deep should a pond be?  Obviously, it should be deep enough
       so grass does not grow in the middle.
    
    2) Do we need to line the bottom with something to keep the water
       from soaking in?  Our soil is very rocky and it does not take
       long for standing water to soak in. 
    
    3) How large should it be to support fish?  Will fish help keep
       it clean?
    
    4) How do you keep the water fresh and not stagnant? 

    Unfortunately these days there's also other things you have to
    be concerned with, such as:
    
    Is this "swamp" considered wetlands?  If so, you could probably
    end up with the environmentalists all over you if you made any
    unapproved changes - even on your own property.
    
    Liability - by improving it would you be creating an "attractive
    nuissance"?  Would you have to surround it with a fence if it's
    over a certain depth, post signs, etc. since you'd basically be
    making a "man made" pond?  Are permits required, etc???
    
    Just guess I'm skeptical after hearing various horror stories
    about people being prevented from making changes on their own
    property.
    
    ep

I too want to make a pond.  To further complicate things it would be in an
existing wetland!  However, I don't think that's necessarily a problem. The 
REAL problem is $$$.  But, that's literally years away so I'm not being to
serious about it now.

However, if you have a relatively dry area, I understand from a neighbor who
build one that it's only a matter of getting in a big machine for a day two.
The big problem though is what to do with all the dirt they'll be removing.

The only thing I've heard that IS critical, though, is a source of fresh water.
If you simply dig a hole and let it fill up, it's going to become stagnant. 
The real key is to have a stream you can run through it and thereby keep the 
water changing.

-mark

    
    
      I am fairly certain that you can not alter the flow of water into/out
    of your land.  It has something to do with the wetlands management
    act.  You have to literally get permission from more agencies than
    you can count.  It is a difficult undertaking for any private
    individual.  That is for FLOWING water.  To dig a hole and let it
    fill up, you would have to include an aeration system to keep the
    water from stagnating.  You might even have to install a plastic
    membrane to keep the water from leeching out.  A small pond can
    be beautiful, but it is also a liability that will increase your
    home owner insurance.

I almost bought a property with a pond, so I asked my insurance co.
how much that would increase the insurance.  Their asnwer: it wouldn't
directly increase my insurance at all.  However, I would be well advised
to pay an extra $150 a year to increase my liability coverage to $1M,
to cover the possibility that one of the many teenagers who skate on
the pond in the winter might fall through the ice and cause a major
lawsuit.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Also consider mosquitoes like stagnant water.

    	Just an update to this note and the new note which was started
    about man made ponds. I checked for my fish this weekend  and still
    have at least 4 of them in good shape. I did spot at least 5 dead
    ones, only one of which was part of the original 6 I put in. So
    they do seem to like to breed in there and are able to survive the
    winter. Water level did drop fairly low this winter down to about
    2-3 feet so I would say at least 4 feet would be an good depth.
    I'm hoping to get the town to dig it out this year, as they have
    an easment for taking care of it. The thing has realy filled in
    over the past 3 years with sand from the roads and leaves and pin
    needles from the trees. The trick will be in not killing the fish
    in the process.
                               
    	The Keeper Of The Gold Fish...
    
    			...Dave 
    

    Here are some more cautionary comments and considerations:

>   an area that is usually like a swamp most of the year.  
    Be careful you don't wind up with a muddy, buggy hole during the summer.

>   We are thinking about having a friend with a backhoe dig out that area ...
    You'd probably want to consult with (at least) someone experienced in
    pond-digging (re:  depth, survey/contouring, etc.) and in dealing with
    state, EPA, etc. regulations

>   2) Do we need to line the bottom with something to keep the water ...
    Definitely.  One digger we talked to (we're just dreaming) said it's
    usually some heavy duty plastic (e.g. MKO2's pond) or trucking in good
    clay.  Plastic, of course, is better for your pocket, but esthetically?

    I have a pond on my property.  It was man-made probably before
    the days of environmental laws.  It was made by basically widening
    a stream.  After all this time, it is now officially considered
    wetlands and that places alot of restrictions on what you can and can't
    do with your own property.
    
    It is also starting to fill in and turn swampy in some parts.  I
    was thinking of having someone dredge it out but probably some
    government agency would give you a hard time about that.
               
    Then I read that they are planning to dredge out Lake Maspenock
    (aka North Pond) in Hopkinton from a grant from the state.  The
    article then went on to mention that a provision in the Clean Water Act
    allows people? to restore lakes and ponds that are turning into swamps
    and bogs.  So maybe I won't have to go thru numerous gummint agencies
    to work on my pond.  Anyone know anything more about the Clean Water
    Act or who I could ask?
    
    -al

    Call DEQE or EPA in Boston to get info on Clean Waters Act.
    

    re .8
    
    Also check with your town conservation comission as they are the folks
    who you'll have to deal with before starting any work.
    
    -will

    
    As an advisor to my Town's Conservation Commission, I'm glad to
    see all the replys referencing the Wetlands Act. The base noters
    header indicates he's located in WA not MA, and I'm not up on what
    sort of state laws exist there. In MA, you can create a wetland
    where none existed and then it is covered by state and local
    environmental and conservation laws. The national laws are not as
    restrictive. My advice, regardless of location, would be to contact
    local, state, and federal agencies regulating wetlands and
    environmental concerns. Their are a number of excellent books and
    publications available on creating your own pond or lake and it's
    management. In MA, there's a state wide group of Pond and Lake owners
    that is very active and supportive. 
    The liability and on-going work load of effective management are
    hardly items to ignore or underestimate, but the rewards, if they
    fit into your lifestyle perspective, can easily outweigh the drawbacks.
    Hit the government pages in your phone book and request not only
    information of them, but any associations that may exist in your
    area.  
    We need more, effective, well managed ponds in this country.

	The house we just built comes complete with a "frog pond" - a
	cement-lined pond, maybe 15' by 6' at most (more or less peanut-
	shaped), 2'-3' deep, with a few planters (for water lilies, I
	guess). It's in the side yard, maybe 25' from the
	sidewalk, no fences (except, temporarily, a short one because we
	just planted grass). Is this a liability risk? There's no room in
	it to swim or even really wade, so it wouldn't invite anyone to
	jump in, but we understand the neighborhood kids like to try to
	catch frogs there. Would it be sufficient to plant a garden around 
	the entire circumference (probably heavy on the roses) to 
	discourage children from getting too close? Would a pool alarm such
	as in the recent topic be worthwhile? We'd prefer not 
	to either fill in the pond or erect a fence.

	Mike

		Check with your local building  department.  According to 
	mine  any  man made pond/pool that is over 2 feet  deep  must  be 
	fenced  in as to not be an attractive nuisance.  Of  course  your 
	pond may fall under a grandfather clause.  At least I'd make sure 
	you were carrying a little extra liability insurance.
		
				
	
				...Dave  Who has one too (fenced in)

I think it is safe to say that a garden would *not* discourage the yard
apes from getting into your pond if they want to go there and are used
to doing so.  Certainly the kids that were accustomed to using my back
yard as a minor shortcut weren't disturbed by stepping on my plants.
Changing people's behavior takes time and effort.  Or a stout fence.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    	Our home in Acton is one of three which share a pond which is
    about 20' in diameter and maybe 6' deep.  I was told by the town
    planners (Acton) a fence wasn't necessary and by METPAY I should
    carry a lot of insurance.
    
    	Keeping people out of my backyard when they came to 'enjoy'the
    pond resulted in:
    
    	.  the erection of a fence around all the property and to
    	   within a foot of the high water level
    
    	.  planting of bushes which are comfortable in very wet
    	   areas to within a foot of the low water level
    
    	.  telling dozens of people - MOSTLY ADULTS - to please
    	   not use my backyard for picnics, etc. and to please
    	   not use our deck furniture.
    
    	The pond is pretty and we are very pleased we have it to share
    but NEXT time we purchase a house we will own the adjacent pond
    or there will not be a pond.  All ponds, in my opinion, will draw
    people and people have become obnoxious - having no regard for provate
    property, littering, etc.  I have come home more than once to find
    ADULTS with kids sitting on our garden furniture and 'enjoying'
    the ice skating or fishing in the pond.  When told to leave, the
    adults and kids almost always become quite indignent (sp).
    
    	Our neighbors were not pleased when we had our property fenced
    even though the fence is quite attractive and in excellent repair
    (stained every four years or as needed, whichever comes first).
    There is a 'thing' in parts of New England about fences.  I'm a
    native New Englander (innercity Boston) and strongly believe in
    fences - A good fence makes for good neighbors!
    
    Douglas

    
    About fences and New England ...
                                             
    Doug, for your information, there *is* a thing about fences in
    parts of New England, but it definitely excludes Boston, and other
    areas where people are packed in like sardines (included crowded
    suburbs). Much of New England is quite rural, including the part I
    grew up in.  Fences are generally considered bad manners - they
    partition the countryside.  As a child, I walked to school in fair
    weather, using trails through the woods. Parts of the trails went
    through people's yards and by farms. 
    
    
    

    I think in the past , people had manners so they didn't need
    fences.....
    
    Lynn
    

	I have to admit, I'm one of those New Englanders with a "thing"
	about fences, and would prefer to avoid them if at all possible
	(with one possible exception, read below). I don't really mind
	people diverting off the sidewalk to look at the pond, the problem
	is getting "look but don't touch" across to the kids.

	re: 2 feet deep, thanks I'll check the rules in Pepperell. It's
	not much deeper than 2 feet now, so a little more fill should
	satisfy that rule if it exists.

	re: garden not stopping kids - I was thinking along the lines
	of the more discouraging species - roses, blackberries, etc.

	In the long run we're interested in having a stone wall along
	the sidewalk, which would be more of a psychological barrier
	than a physical barrier (we figure just high enough to
	comfortably sit on).

	Mike

    A property that I am considering may have the dam that is holding up the 
adjacent lake (catch basin).  I realize that if it turns out on the property
the property's value is diminished considerably.  Since this is on a high mountain
the true meaning of mountain lake comes out here but I dont want to get stuck with
maintaining the dam or accept any responsibility for the 5 acre lake which 5 people
share.  Other than walk away, ( if it turns out so) Is there any way to pass
liability to the town? third party?  This is an earthen dam about ten to fifteen
feet high and sixty feet long.
Thanks.