Conference 7.286::home_work

    I hate to be negative, but I have the same problem and I've resigned
    myself to living with it.
    
    1) You can try completely covering yourself and pulling it out,
    but the least bit of root left will engender new plants sooner or
    later, usually sooner.
    
    2) You can try #1 in the dead of winter thinking it's safer and
    find out that poison ivy is still poison even with no leaves.
    
    3) There is no specific herbacide that you can easily dump on a
    whole area that will kill only the poison ivy and leave other stuff
    alone (and I've looked everywhere).
    
    4) There are herbacides that you spray on the leaves that  supposedly
    work their way down to the roots, but you have to be careful to get
    only the poison ivy leaves, cause it'll kill other things too.
    My estimate for doing my back woods by this method is somewhere between 
    35 and 40 years.

    If someone else has a method, I'd be willing to pay reasonable amounts
    of money for a solution.  The stuff is vile, and my wife is extremely
    sensitive to it.  I just do #1 as best as I can, year after year
    after year....
    

There's a long discussion about this in PICA::GARDEN.  I responded to it there, 
so I won't bother to say the same things again here.  I don't know what note it 
is, but a dir/title=ivy ought to find it quickly enough.  Hit KP7 to select.

Paul

    Thanks for the prompt replies!
    
    I have checked the entries in PICA::GARDEN and it looks hopeful.
    The chemicals mentioned (AMMATE from Agway and ORTHO Woody Plant
    Killer) appear to be effective but not overly toxic (at least for
    my concience).
    
    Now to get ready to do battle !!

Since I don't want to deal with any more notes files, I'll toss in my 
suggestions here and anyone who HAS read the GARDENING notes file can update me
if they care too.

I've been using AMATE (in various forms, I've used the chemical called Amitol) 
quite successfully.  It's very effective and appears to only kill the ivy (the
grass and shrubs will discolor a little, but that soon grows out).

Anyhow, I spray it on (using a multi-gallon pump type) once the plants start
putting out leaves (the Amate is absorbed into the root system).  It usually
takes 2-4 weeks before you notice anything, but all of the sudden, everything
is dead.  It's wonderfull.  

The only catch is that since the Amate is absorbed through the leaves, any 
plants that haven't sprouted yet aren't killed.  I had a huge patch of the stuff
and after 2 or 3 sprayings (over a couple of springs/falls), you'll get rid of 
it!  The key here is patience...

-mark

    I had the same problems as the others, my lawn used to be old orchards
    and fields and they were loaded with PI. After spraying with chemicals,
    having the land regraded with a buldozer, the #$%&^# stuff kept popping
    up here and there. 
    
    Now that most of it is gone, I use a "Weed & Feed" type lawn
    fertilizer. The "Feed" part is good for the grass and the "Weed" part
    kills a variety of weeds INCLUDING PI (according to the bag). It does
    seem to work but it does take time, diligence and patience. 

    Charly

    Amate is good.  Also "Kleen-Up" or "Round-Up" (same stuff, different
    names) that is perhaps a bit more effective than Amate but seems
    to be a bit more toxic, judging by the label.  
    
    I've got a couple acres of the stuff in the woods; mostly I try to 
    keep it back off the lawn and live with the rest.
    

    You could always get a goat; they eat it to death.

    What ever you do dont try burning it out. The poison is carried
    by the smoke and is worse than just going out and rolling in it.
    
    -jerry
    

    I used Ammitrol with great success.  It is absorbed through the
    leaves and travels through the root system, so I would spray in
    one spot and wind up with patches dying 20 and 30 feet away.
    
    It does take 2 or 3 sprayings spaced a few weeks apart to get it
    all, and you will need to carry out "border skirmishes" once or
    twice a year to keep new stuff from sneaking in from outside.
    
    If you are sensitive (or even if you aren't), I'd recommend buying a
    cheap pair of fishermans waist or chest high waders and rubber boots.
    The waders will run $8 to $12 and a cheap set of boots around the same
    or less.  It's kind of hot, but if you are working in underbrush you
    can be wading in poison ivy up to your knees before noticing it, cause
    it likes to hide under other brush and scrub.  Long sleeved shirt
    and rubber gloves (easy to brush aside some scrub with your hand and
    find PI right there) complete the outfit, and so what if you look
    like a cheap Ghostbusters remake!  Slide into and out of the outfit
    with care in your basement, and keep it where no one will brush up
    against it.

    /Dave

       Clearing ivy from your yard is ok but thats not the
       only place is. If you go on a picnic or a field trip
       your going to run into it. You ma want to consider
       going for shots for that allergy. I went for shots
       for bee stings a few years ago. It seems to work ok.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
                                     Lou R           

    I just want to STRONGLY second .9!!!
    If you burn poison ivy/oak/sumac, not only will any skin
    exposed to the smoke react as if it was directly exposed
    to the plant (maybe more so, the oils are fairly hot and
    volitile at that point), but if you happen to take a 
    breath at the wrong time, your lungs will react likewise!!
    Many people have died this way!
    
    Kevin

    SHOTS for PI ???
    Are you sure ?  I never heard of this.  I also get P.I., about a
    dozzen times a summer.  If there is a SHOT for it, I am surprized
    none of the doctors that I go to for shots, to get ride of the PI
    from my system, mentioned these shots that make you not catch it
    in the first place. 
                       
    I hope you are right and there is a shot (similar to bee sting shots)
    that help you build up antibodies so that P.I. will not effect you.
                                                            
    Anyone ever have this shot?

A friend of mine went through it and was very pleases.  He said it's a series
of 3 shots, something like a week apart.

BUT -- and he emphasized this, you have to be 100% sure you avoid all contact
	with PI during this period or you will get a severe case of it.

Anyhow, before the shots he'd get VERY infected and since he got the shots
only gets mild cases.  Sounds good to me...

-mark

I've had the shots.  It's cortisone.


...bill

Cortisone is used as an anti-inflammitory AFTER you get PI.  It's also used 
for Arthritis, etc.  I think they're talking about de-sensitizing shots which 
are usually based on an extract of the thing to which you're allergic.  This 
prompts the body to produce small amounts of antigens to attack this 
substance.  When you come in contact with the real thing your body already has 
antigens floating around thus doesn't start the mass-production of more 
antigens and histamine.  This over-production is what causes the allergic 
reaction.


			Andy Ostrom
			EMT-A

    RE: .16
    
    Topical cortisone is used as an anti-inflammatory.  There is however
    cortisones which are injected to increase allergy resistance.  It
    is a white milky looking substance.
    
    -al

    Getting back to the killing of poison ivy (die, you <deleted>!),
    we spent much of the last two days spraying Round-Up on the PI
    [and the false solomon's seal, and the jack-in-the-pulpit :-( ]
    so we should have some idea of how well/badly it works in about
    one to two weeks.
    
    Dick
    

    
    	>Topical cortisone is used as an anti-inflammatory.  There is however
    	>cortisones which are injected to increase allergy resistance.  It
    	>is a white milky looking substance.
    
	>    -al


NOPE.  Cortisone (usually actually Prednisone which is a synthetic), and all 
the other cortico-steriods, do NOTHING to increase allergy resistance.  What 
they DO is to lessen the level of activity of the body's immune system, thus 
lessening the SYMPTOMS of allergies.  That's also why they're used as 
anti-rejection drugs for transplant patients.  It's also why they are so 
potentially DANGEROUS -- they lessen the body's ability to fight infection.

Sorry 'bout the digression...


			Andy

    Not only will the goats eat the leaves, but you can feed the goat's
    milk to your children and they will develop an immunity to the PI. The
    goats only eat the leaves, however.  If you want a more permanent
    solution, get a pig and fence in the area you want to clear out, making
    sure you put a string of barbed wire along the bottom inside of the
    fence.  The pig will not only eat the leaves, but will dig out all the
    roots as well.  Then in the fall you could have a pig roast.  If you
    don't have a very large area, call rent-a-pig. 

    

    
    If it's true that you can develop an immunity to PI by drinking
    the milk of a goat that's been eating PI, I may call rent-a-goat
    myself. Is there any proof of this claim?? (obviously made by a
    rent-a-goat store manager ;^) )
    
    Ray

    RE: .21
    
    Yes, it's true but you also start eating the beer cans after you
    empty them...
    

    We have a whole bunch of sumac growing on our land.  We tried to
    cut some down last week, and my boyfriend broke out with an extensive
    itchy rash.  Apparently the sap inside is the culprit.  One of my
    colleagues here told me that his sister-in-law had a similar problem,
    and that these trees are extremely hard to get rid of.  If you cut
    them off, there is the sap to worry about, and then the roots grow
    new trees.  His family ended up getting a bulldozer to dig them
    up.  This is impractical for us.  Anyone have any suggestions?
    
    Also on the subject of irritating flora, my friend Dee has alot
    of poison ivy to get rid of.  Probably too much for the aerosol
    spray that you put on the leaves.  Any ideas to help him out, too?
    
    				Thanks!
    				 Sue
    

    You are right, sumac, poison ivy, etc are a bear to get rid of.
    The sap in the stems (or any part of the plant) can get you, just
    as the leaves can. Usually, the whole plant, roots and all, have
    to come out. Sprays will kill off foliage, but with the poison ivy
    around my house, it hasn't killed the whole plant yet (and I've
    sprayed for 5 years). At least it keeps the leaves out of my way
    though. One thing to remember, NEVER BURN THE PLANTS-the smoke is
    worse than touching the sap and much more dangerous!
    
    Eric

    
    	There is a product put out by ORTHO called "Brush Killer". 
    This will take care of EVERYTHING!  You'll have to get access
    to a pressure sprayer to use it.  It comes in quarts and gallons,
    then you mix it with water to the proper dosage.  It works.
    Check out some good hardware stores for it.

    I have a couple of suggestions that *may* work.  Probably better
    for the poison ivy than the sumac.
    
    1)	There is a herbicide called Roundup.  It costs about $45/quart.
    	You dilute about 2 oz/gal of water or something.  Spray it on
    	the leaves.  This kills most things.  I have never tried it
    	on poison ivy or sumac.  Supposedly the active ingredient enters
    	through the leaves and kills the whole plant.  Lest you think 
    	the main ingredient is Agent Orange, it is reputed to break down 
    	quickly in the envaronment such that you are able to *drink* it 
    	in a few days.  Personally, I do not pEcommend this toxicity`test.
    
    2)	A friend told me that Borax (as in 20 mule team soap) sprinkled
    	on poison ivy would kill it.  I have never tried this so I don't
    	know if it works.
    
    I have tried peaceful coexisteLCe.  Any other suggestions?
    
    Stan

    I see someone snuck another reply in here.  I think Ortho "Brush
    Killer" and such like are simply diluted Roundup.  Get the strong
    stuff.
    
    Stan

    I have used the Ortho on small areas, and it works well enough,
    but if you have a lot, I would agree that you should get something
    stronger, and use a power sprayer.  Pay attention as to whether
    the vines ramble up the trees...sometimes they are a real pain to
    get to.
    I will also second Eric's comment---don't even think about burning
    it.  A fellow I once worked with inadvertantly did that, and wound
    up with poison ivy in his lungs and was in the hospital over a month!
    
    Old wives tale suggests that salt (the crystal kind you'd use in
    an icecream mixer, or like the road crews...) can also over time
    kill the stuff, but I have never tried it.
    
    Good luck!
    

See also note 1125

Paul

    The standard killer for poison ivy is DuPont's Amm-ate, which
    is supplied as a powder to be dissolved and applied with a 
    tank sprayer.  This will definitely kill the stuff, BUT then
    you have to put on heavy gloves and old clothes, pull the stuff
    up by the roots after it's dead, then bring the brush to the
    dump and get rid of the clothes.  It does work; this is how
    we rid our backyard - about 1/8 acre - of poison ivy over
    one summer.
    
    As the previous advice indicated, DON'T BURN IT.  It only 
    spreads the problem.
    
    pbm
    

    I'll second .7's recommendation for Amate.  It works!  Get the
    crystalline form, mix with water according to the instructions, and
    spray with a pressure sprayer.   Apply liberally.  Apply when it is hot
    and steamy, and not just before or after a rain.  Warning. This stuff
    kills *ALL* broadleafed plants, so watch for overspray, etc.   I
    wouldn't recommend pulling the roots, etc. as there is too much rish of
    contact with the poison ivy, etc.  Instead, I recommend reapplying the
    Amate during the course of the summer if leaves reappear.  You won't
    get it all in one summer; but you will get it in about two years.  The
    trick is too keep those leaves dead. Plants can't live forever without
    leaves to recharge the food supply that they store in their roots. 

    I've had good luck with Ammate, too.  I got a 2 lb bag at Spag's
    last year for about $7.00.  Mixz the crystals with water as directed,
    and spray directly on the leaves and vines. (I used an old Spray-n-Wash
    bottle.) Don't spray on a windy day, as you'll kill surrounding
    plants too.  Wear a particle filter mask and gloves.  Remember, Agent
    Orange was a herbicide.                  
                                             
    You'll need to reapply the Ammate a couple times over the growing
    season, but each time you'll be spraying fewer and fewer sprouts. 
                          
    Good Luck,
    Joe
    
    
                                             
    day     

    Since I've forgotten more than I learned from Biology 101, can someone
    tell me what a poison sumac tree looks like?  I don't know that
    I have any or not, or maybe I've been lucky not to have run into
    one.  My lot is wooded and so far I haven't come out of the woods
    with the itchies.  So maybe I don't have an allergic reaction to
    this or I don't have the cause of the problem.
    
    About the only trees I can identify are: pine (and not particular
    variants), maple, white birch, and oak.  But I do have other types
    that I don't know what they are.
    
    Thanx,
    
    	Ted

    Poison sumac is not really a sumac, so it doesn't look like one
    - it is actually related to the poison ivy and poison oak.  It is
    a small-ish tree with light colored bark, and the leaves (don't
    be foolish enough to PICK one!) look like those of an ash tree,
    sort of - a central rib with oval leaflets in pairs down the stem,
    sort of like a real sumac.  I haven't gotten close to a poison sumac
    in years, so I can't give you more details.  You could pick up a
    book from your library that describes plants native to your area;
    those books usually have drawings and sometimes photographs of the
    plants.  I believe that the poison sumac grows droopy clusters of
    berries that look like poison ivy berries, which would also help
    make it look like a real sumac.  You aren't likely to run into this
    plant (which is just as well, since it tends to cause worse reactions
    than poison ivy - or so I have been told: I've never touched one)
    because it tends to grow in swampy areas.
    
    Maybe someone can come up with a more detailed description for you;
    natural history camp was almost twenty years ago for me!  I still
    remember a good deal of the local botany, though, since I'm still
    interested in that sort of stuff.

>    Old wives tale suggests that salt (the crystal kind you'd use in
>    an icecream mixer, or like the road crews...) can also over time
>    kill the stuff, but I have never tried it.
    


Hmmmmmm..my dad told me about this many years ago.  It does work if you do it
correctly.  You have to cut the plant down to ground level, then 'pack' the
roots with the salt.

He managed to rid our yard of poison ivy.  Of course that was back before 
modern scientific approaches to the problem.

An 'Old Wife'    

    
    Poison Sumac is a beautiful looking bush (saw one as a child).
    Good thing someone told me about it.  I remember the leaves were
    reddish.  But I don't remember if that was in th autumn or not.
    I'd suggest going to a library, as in this case a picture is
    worth a thousand words. 
    
    -tm
    

    re the original note
    
    Is it really poison sumac or is there poison ivy on the ground?
    
    other notes:
    
    Poison Ivy can get very tall - 40' or more if it likes the
    tree it is climbing. To kill such a beast cut a segment out
    with an axe during the winter, treat the lower section with
    a good woody plant killer. Be careful how you treat the axe
    after - wash it  with a good detergent wearing gloves. Don't
    use a saw - the dust gets all over.
    
    Only expect a 90% kill per treatment on any large patch of
    poison ivy. Keep a good lookout for regrowth.
    
    If neighboring areas harbor poison ivy, checking your property
    should be a regular activity. Birds eat the berries but can
    not digest the seeds, the result is scattered seed, each
    with its own packet of fertilizer.
    
    If you only have one small plant and don't care about killing
    everything next to it, soak the soil with salt, gasoline,
    oil, or many other common substances.
    
    - gerry

    
    Re: .14
    
    > If you only have one small plant and don't care about killing
    > everything next to it, soak the soil with salt, gasoline,
    > oil, or many other common substances.
    
    I wouldn't recommend this, particularly the gasoline/oil
    route, as this is akin to dumping hazardous waste (albeit
    in a small quantity).  I wouldn't be surprised if it is
    against the law.
    
    -tm
    

>    I wouldn't recommend this, particularly the gasoline/oil
>    route, as this is akin to dumping hazardous waste (albeit
>    in a small quantity).  I wouldn't be surprised if it is
>    against the law.

It does work, though. I killed a (small) poison ivy plant with gasoline once
in a former life. Don't plan on growing anything there for a few years.
Obviously, don't do it at all if you have a well.

    In response to .13 (was there poison ivy on the ground....?)
    
    Yeah, turns out there was.  We bought our place in late fall; all
    the PI was brown.  What we did was dig up an area in the field to
    plant some small trees.  There were all these little stems sticking
    up, but we didn't think anything of it.  We cut them, we burned
    them, we rooted around in the ground with our hands....
    
    ....dam' lucky we didn't get a worse case than we did (and what
    we did get was bad enough).
    
    Now that it's spring/summer, we see that probably 50% of our 11
    acres is loaded with the stuff.  Too much area for herbicides, if
    you're the least bit environmentally conscious.
    
    We are seriously thinking about going in with our neighbor
    cooperatively on some goats.  Does anyone (seriously, now) know
    if its true they can eat the stuff without problem, and if you can
    really devlelop an immunity from drinking the milk?
    
    					Sue

    Yes, goats can indeed eat poison ivy, no problem.  I don't know
    about getting an immunity from the milk - personally, I wouldn't
    count on it.

    RE: .17
    
    Not only will they eat it, they love it!
    
    
    I've watched a goat tear almost every inch of poison ivy off the
    side of a barn in about 2 hours, just chomping away.  The first
    time it happened, my father called the vet (you know, there is POISION
    in the name)  Anyway, the vet confirmed that goats loved the stuff
    and that it won't hurt them.
    
    
    Before you get goats, think seriously about it.  They are LOTS of
    work, and males can get rather mean.  Females MUST be milked daily,
    or they will get infections.  My parents had theirs for about 2
    years when they finally gave up becuase they were too mean.  Also,
    if you get them, consider getting them very young so that they are
    used to somewhat behaving themselves.  One of our goats was an older
    male when we got him, and he was a terror.  They're lots of work,
    they're somewhat selective eaters (ie: they won't clear a hill,
    but they'll pick at what's there).  They do love poison ivy though,
    and blackberry bushes too!
    
    
    -bill

    A friend of mine had a couple of goats once; one of them was rather
    ornery, and ended up as goatburgers in the freezer.  The other one
    was lovely though, friendly and a real pet.  I think he was a
    castrated male - not sure.  At any rate, he didn't smell bad, which 
    male goats have a reputation for.  I expect if you got a young one
    and spent time with it, odds are he/she'd grow up to be good around 
    people.

    (...)the other one
    was lovely though, friendly and a real pet.  I think he was a
    castrated male - not sure.  At any rate, he didn't smell bad, (...)
    if you got a young one
    and spent time with it, odds are he'd grow up to be good around 
    people.

    	Having digressed from poison oak/sumac/ivy to goats, I'll wander
    a little farther.
    
    	The farmer wanted to clear his field <of whatever, goats are
    known to like eating it>.  The first day he pegged the stake and
    gave the goat 20 ft of rope, i.e. a 40ft diameter circle.  The next
    day he wanted the goat to eat the same amount <for whatever reason>,
    but he also wanted to set the stake at the very edge of the circle
    the goat had cleared the first day <kinda strange>.  Given that
    the goat won't eat from the area he cleared the day before, how
    long will the rope have to be to give him the same amount of food
    to eat from on the second day ?
    
    	No catches, its a "simple" geometry problem (I think ?)
    
    	R
    

Moderator's note:  While I'm not opposed to digressions, and while a little 
math work won't hurt anyone, this really has nothing to do with home_work.
I'm willing to look the other way for now, but don't let this get out of hand.

:^)
Paul

    
    .22, with the geometry, is describing exactly what we intend to
    do.  Stake the goat(s) in different areas until all the poison ivy
    around the house and up on the field is gone.
    
    Re: all the work involved in goats, this is why we are going to
    go into it cooperatively with our neighbor.  That way the work will
    be cut in half, and someone will be around if we (or they) go away.
    
    An added side benefit will be dairy products.  I hope to get into
    making cheese....
    
    						Sue

Re: 22
>    	The farmer wanted to clear his field <of whatever, goats are
>    known to like eating it>.  The first day he pegged the stake and
>    gave the goat 20 ft of rope, i.e. a 40ft diameter circle.  The next
>    day he wanted the goat to eat the same amount <for whatever reason>,
>    but he also wanted to set the stake at the very edge of the circle
>    the goat had cleared the first day <kinda strange>.  Given that
>    the goat won't eat from the area he cleared the day before, how
>    long will the rope have to be to give him the same amount of food
>    to eat from on the second day ?
>    
About 30 feet (for round figures)
Don't ask for the explanation. I can't face explaining the answers to 
geometry problems without the aid of drawings, and with the graphics
available .......

Re: .25

>>>>  About 30 feet (for round figures)

Sorry, about that: what it should have said was 

      " 26.30 feet (or about 26 feet for round figures) "

p.s. this is a bit academic because the goat is bound to nibble over
     _some_ of the previous day's ground.  I'd just experiment and see
     how you get on - maybe some goats are hungrier than others, in which
     case you could add another foot or two the rope (he said, stating the
     blindly obvious.)

    RE: roaped goats
    
    Forget the roap.  Goats eat rope very well, believe me.
    
    If it's a male, get a heavy chain, female will be less likely go
    break the chain, but it does happen.  
    
    on the goat end, use an old belt or something substantial for the
    collar.  dog collars last about a week.
    
    We used to use a long steel pole with a huge washer welded on the
    top.  Put the pole through the loop in the end of the chain, hammer
    it into the ground and hook up the goat.  
    
    Keeping goats on a chain is a major chore, and my mother had the
    black and blue marks to prove it.  The goat got away (broken chain,
    broken collar, broken connectors, or pulled the pole out) at least
    once a week.  He'd then come up to the house to see what he could
    find to eat.  (My mother used to like to put flower arrangements
    on the doors, the goat used to like to eat them!)

    Neutered males are much better than un-neutered males.  The un-neutered
    ones stink to high heaven, and are meaner than you care to deal
    with.  (as a side story, one of my father's friends said that he
    wasn't intimidated by this large billy goat taht we had.  Until
    he was knocked on his butt that is)
    
    All in all, if I was going to keep goats, I'd at least have a place
    to keep them unchained.  (barbed wire, electrified fences work well,
    others don't stand up too well.  They tend to tear them down)  You
    could then chain them once in a while to clear a specific area,
    but then put them away for the night/day, etc.  Also, to keep them
    in control, a bucket of sugar-coated grain is a real treat.  They'll
    be more than happy to let you put their collar on when they're eating
    this stuff from a bucket, if they're not eating, forget it.
    
    
    -bill    
    

    I second the neutered suggestion. I raised a goat as a 4H project
    worked with him every day for 2 years and still got meaner than
    all hell. As far as eating rope goes I think it is easier to list
    the things a hungry goat cant eat not saying they wont try to anyway.
    
    -j
    

I'm really enjoying this conversation, as I know nothing about goats.

But, once again, what exactly is this doing for you? 


The way I see it, you won't be able to use the land unless you get rid 
of the poison ivy.  The goat will eat the leaves/stems, but will not 
get rid of the plants.  Thus, I don;t really see how you are even 
going to walk out there to tie it up without having to cover all of 
yourself below the knees and elbows.

So in the end, you still have un-useable land, a goat to take care of, 
and neatly trimmed poison ivy.  Which is fine if you want to get into 
cheese making, but I thought the point was to reclaim the land.

Have I missed something?

    re: .29 
    
    > Have I missed something?
    
    Yes. 
    
    Your the poison ivy on your unusable land will grow better because
    of the plentiful supply of goat manure.  Then your goat will have
    more to eat, so it will produce more goat manure, which will make
    the poison ivy grow better, which will . . .
    
    Clay

    Persistence is the key.
    
    If poison ivy leaves are eaten repeatedly, photosynthesis cannot
    occur.  If photosynthesis cannot occur, plants will not live.
    
    I never claimed the land would be cleared overnight - I've got plenty
    of time.  Better to wait than to dump gallons of toxic chemicals
    on land that is above our well......
    
    					Sue

I used to have a well, I know where you're coming from. 

Just curious.

Good Luck.

>               Better to wait than to dump gallons of toxic chemicals
>    on land that is above our well......
    
Have you looked into what chemicals are available and how they work, or 
are you just reacting to the word "chemical"?

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Note I stated "toxic chemicals".  Anything that is going to be strong
    enough to kill an aggressive plant such as poison ivy must be by
    its very nature quite toxic.  In addition, all of the descriptions
    I have seen in this note and in the other one on herbicides have
    not looked like anything I would want to drink.
    
    If there is something out there that breaks down into carbon dioxide
    or other simple hydrocarbons and water or some such, I would be
    willing to consider it.  I have never heard of anything like that.
    
    I may be partially reacting to the word, but I also have an
    environmental background, and so am quite sensitive to the application
    of ANYTHING artificial where there is possibility of runoff, etc.
    
    The other day I was in the gardening store, and I saw a shelf of
    items labeled "Natural Insect Control".  Quite interested and with
    an initially positive attitude, I took a closer look.  Much to my
    dismay, although it stated that these materials were derived from
    plants, they also had warnings against breathing, touching, or letting
    your domestic animals near the stuff.  
    
    Now, if the genetic engineers could just come up with a poison-ivy
    specific pathenogenic virus...............
    
    Seriously, my mind is open; I am just doubtful.
    
    				Sue

For smaller amounts of poison ivy (or for large amounts if you are
very persistent) there is a way to use chemical poisons with minimal
danger of contamination.  Plus it's more effective at killing the
poison ivy.  According to several different books I read, you can
put the poison in a container, dip one end of the poison ivy in it,
and leave it for an hour.  The poison ivy vine will suck up the
poison and die, roots and all.  You still have to dig out the plant,
but you have to do that with any method.  This method puts the
herbicide only *in* the poison ivy.  Spraying poison on the leaves
will kill the leaves but may not kill the plant -- anyone who's
seen gypsy moth infestations knows that some plants can take a lot
of defoliation before they die completely.


    The other day I was in the gardening store, and I saw a shelf of
    items labeled "Natural Insect Control".  Quite interested and with
    an initially positive attitude, I took a closer look.  Much to my
    dismay, although it stated that these materials were derived from
    plants, they also had warnings against breathing, touching, or letting
    your domestic animals near the stuff.  

Natural plants contain *lots* of substances that oughtn't to be breathed
or touched.  It's all part of their natural defense systems against
insects and herbivores.  Poison ivy is just the best known example.
Being "natural" is no guarantee of safety; caution is a good idea.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

 ...put the posion in a container, dip one end of the posion ivy in it,
    and leave it for an hour.  The poison ivy vine will suck up the
    poison and die, roots and all.....
    
 This sounds like a pretty good idea.  I may try it for some of the
    areas closest to the house.  I have one question, though.  You mention
    digging out the plant.  I thought I would minimize contact with
    the poison ivy by leaving the dead plant to "biodegrade".  Will
    a plant which has been killed by herbicide leave residue in the
    soil after the stems break down?
    
    					Sue   

    
    	I know that bleach works very well on poison ivy leaves, we
    have an area that comes back about every five years.  We know where
    it is, don't go through there too often, etc.  I'm not interested
    in digging up the roots, since I don't know where I'd put them and
    its all in/under/around a stone wall that I don't want to move either.

    I don't see the sense in digging up the roots anyway, if its a
    particularly virulent plant it will proabably root itself wherever
    it is dumped, I don't want to handle it in any case.  
    
    We DO all know about NOT burning this stuff, DON'T WE ??!! 

    
    	Reg
        

    We've had good luck using Amm-ate in a spray bottle, like the kind
    used for misting plants.  Localizes the spray to just the target
    plant, and doesn't contaminate the area.
    
    pbm
    

                                
    Re: .34
    
    	Curious.  You make these two statements in .34:
    
    >I may be partially reacting to the word, but I also have an
    >environmental background, and so am quite sensitive to the application
    >of ANYTHING artificial where there is possibility of runoff, etc.
    
    	...and...
    
    >Now, if the genetic engineers could just come up with a poison-ivy
    >specific pathenogenic virus...............
    
    	Perhaps there was am implied smiley face on the second statement.
    Without it, you're position is basically: don't use something
    artificial that we now think is bad (but didn't think so in the past)
    but do use something artificial that we don't even yet know is good and
    may find in the future to be quite bad.
    
    	Personally, if I had to choose, I'd rather try to clean up a toxic
    chemical site than contain a run-away virus.  (Obviously, I'd rather
    not have either.)  We could find out that the "poison-ivy specific
    pathenogenic virus followed_by_zillions_of_periods" might effect other
    organisms too.  The track record of chemical developers has been pretty
    bad in determining side effects -- why would biological manufacturers
    be any better?  My backyard is proof that we can't even eradicate
    something as complex as the life form called mosquitos.  Eradicate a
    virus???  Good luck.
    
    	Ok, ok, I'm climbing down off my soap-box now.  I just get
    frusterated when I see viewpoints that concentrate on today's highly
    visible problem and ignore trying to keep tomorrow's problems from
    occuring in the first place.
    
    							-craig

    Re: .39
    
    Don't forget..... what I actually DO intend to use is GOATS!!!
    
    	(Hope that makes you feel better - BTW, I'm not advocating a
         latter-day "Andromeda Strain" - I suppose I should've included
         a smiley face!)

re .36:

The books I read recommend digging up the dead roots because the poison
ivy active ingredient does not break down readily, so it will still be 
there long after the plant is dead.  If you want to dig in that area,
eg to plant something else, it's best to dig out the old plants
completely, while you know they are there and are taking precautions,
rather than getting zapped later.  Put them in a plastic bag and
take them to the dump or a landfill - not much danger of people 
getting poisoned by them there.  But make sure the dump doesn't
burn garbage if you take it there...

    Poison Sumac trees!
    
    I have an "African Sumac".  Is this a "killer tree" or is this a
    "real" Sumac someone mentioned earlier.

    If the berries are white, it's poison sumac; if they aren't, it's
    not.  I think.

	Used Roundup successfully after having to go to emergency
	room for second bout. 

    HI
    
    I have found a lot that I want to buy. One problem that is making
    me think twice about buying this land and puting a house on it.
    
    POISON IVY...
    
    The ivy is everywhere. it is climbing the trees and it is all over
    the ground on the 1 acre lot.
    
    Do most new lots have poison ivy.
    
    Will the ivy problem go away after the yard is dug up and grass
    is put in?????
    
    should I forget about this property???
    
    any helpful hints
    
    
    I was thinking of cutting down the trees myself but now I am thinking
    twice.  
    
    I am starting to scratch just typing this message!!!
    
    Gary

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