Conference 7.286::home_work

If there are enough windows for cement access, the floor is usually not poured 
until the framing above it is done.  If there is no access, then you should at 
least have the carrying beams installed (with their supporting lally columns) 
before the floor is poured.  That way the lally column is correctly positioned
before the cement goes in around it.  

As to how to adjust the height, when we built our house, I held up the carrying 
beam with temporary supports nailed to it, and leveled it with those temporary 
supports.  Once the beam was where I wanted it, then I measured and cut the 
columns to fit underneath.  To cut it, go to any rental center and rent a lally 
cutter, which is just a massive pipe cutter. 

Paul

    Assuming your beam has been installed level, the purpose of the
    lolly column is to keep it that way, as well as support the weight.
    When I installed mine, I leveled the main beam using temporary 2x4
    false supports. Then when everything is where you want it, you should
    run a string along the bottom corner edge of the carrying beam,
    attached at each end of the beam. Pull the sting as tight as you
    can get it then slide a 3/4" piece of wood between the beam and
    the sting at each end of the beam. This causes the tighten string
    to stand out 3/4" away from the carrying beam along the whole lenght.
    Now you can install the lollies and measure between the string and
    beam, maintaining that 3/4" space. I used a regular hydraulic car
    jack with a couple of 2x4's nailed together to position each lolly.
    You might even want to put a small crown in the middle of your carry
    beam's run (1/8 t0 1/4"). This may help maintain the levelness as
    the remaining upper portions of your house are constructed and starting
    to settle. 
    
     I recommend that you wait and install your lollies after the bulk
    of the house is built (assuming new construction). This will insure
    a better, leveling situation. Meanwhile during the construction
    period. Use temporary support columns throughout construction and
    install the permanent lollies near completion of the weather tight
    shell.
    

    re: .0
    
    I changed the title of this note, which was "Lolly Column Installation",
    to "Lally Column Installation" to correct the spelling in case anyone 
    wanted to do a "DIR/TIT=LALLY" to actually find the info.
    
    Carry on.
    
    -joet

    
    	I am in the process of adding a room in my cellar... radon
    	is not a concern... and am considering strategies for securing
    	some of the walls in the center of the room. The wall in question
    	is going to be a post and beam type construction, with some
    	of the heavy posts exposed as a framework for a hearth area.
    	I was thinking of drilling a hole (3/8") in a lally column and
    	lagging the beam to it... can anyone lend any advice concerning
    	drilling through a lally... I assume that it is a steel/concrete/
    	steel proposition... any other ideas welcome.
    
    
                                   |  |
    		-------------------|  |
                I      Beam       I|  | <-- Lally column
    		-------------------|  |
                                   |  |
                                   |  |
                                   |  |
                                   |  |
                                                        
    
    /Kevin

    How 'bout boxing in the lally column with 2x4s or 2x6s?  You might wind
up with a wood-looking column, if done half-decently.
    I'd much rather trust a 2x hunka wood to support my post-and-beam beam
than a bolt.  Some physics-type-person might tell you that the load on the
bolt is in shear, or something, and a bolt doesn't DO shear as well as .. uh ...

    re .0	I brazed a number of short bolts to cement filled steel
    columns, I just didn't want to drill through them.  This was just
    to bolt studs up to them, not much of a vertical load was involved.
    
    	R
    

Should we assume that this beam is purely for show and not structural?  The only
reason I ask is that in a cellar there is no need for any structural work.

If it is indeed for looks, why not hang it from some of the rafters?  I don't
know how much sense this would really make.  Also, if you want it to look good
then you WOULD have to box in the column and therefore the previous reply would
probably do.

-mark

    
    	I do plan to box in the column, and the beam that I am considering
    	is mostly for show... it will serve as the mantle over the hearth.
    	I could just secure the beam to the wood surrounding the lally,
    	but my intuition tells me that any box that I build around the
    	lally will have some slop in it and won't hold the beam secure
    	unless I secure the box to something.
    
    /Kevin

>< Note 2831.4 by HPSTEK::JORGENSEN >
>
>
>    
>    	I do plan to box in the column, and the beam that I am considering
>    	is mostly for show... it will serve as the mantle over the hearth.
>    	I could just secure the beam to the wood surrounding the lally,
>    	but my intuition tells me that any box that I build around the
>    	lally will have some slop in it and won't hold the beam secure
>    	unless I secure the box to something.
>    
>    /Kevin



Mig weld some threaded rod to the metal casing of the column.

Ross

    Another thought: get (or make) a couple of U-bolts big enough to go around
    the column, and use those to bolt a board to the side of the column.
    Then box in the whole business.
    You could probably use a piece of that 1/4" threaded rod they sell 
    in hardware stores to make the U-bolts.

    How about replacing the lally column with a timber post. This would
    allow you to fashion the connection with a traditional mortice and
    tenon joint complete with wooden pegs (1" dowels).
                                                
    					   | post   |
    		---------------\-------|   \- - - - |
                     beam       \      |    \   O   |	   O= peg hole
                                 \     |     \  O   | 
                ------------------\----|    --\- - -| 
                                            |       |
                                                                      
    
    /Jim

    I need to replace two lolly columns in my basement which are rusted
    out on the bottom. I have floor jacks next to each one now.
    
    I need to understand the procedure for replacement. One person said
    I needed to bust up the old concrete and pour a new footer... another
    said to simply jack up the beam , cut the old one out and replace
    it. 
    
    Any suggestions? estimates ?  Is this something I can do quickly
    myself? Should i hire somebody? If yes, Who?
    
    Also keep in mind that I just got an offer to relo out to Seattle
    and  need to do something quick and not real expensive.
    
    Thanks,
    Tom 
    PS. I live in a 60+ yr old house in  Worcester.

    I have been told that when using the screw type adjustable lally
    column to raise up a beam, etc. to not exceed 1/4 turn within a
    24 hour period. The risk of not doing it slowly, I reckon is 
    possible structural damage and definetly cracked plaster or sheet-rock.
    
    What type of jacks do you have?

    	Steve    

    I need to replace two lolly columns in my basement which are rusted
    out on the bottom. I have floor jacks next to each one now.
    
    I need to understand the procedure for replacement. One person said
    I needed to bust up the old concrete and pour a new footer... another
    said to simply jack up the beam , cut the old one out and replace
    it. 


The footer or what is commonly called a pad is fairly wide and ususally 
square.  Code says (I think) 18" wide just like foundation footings.

If space allows put another column alond side the rusty ones.  No need for 
cutting and breaking up concrete.  It's not going anywhere.  But still could 
bolt top plate to "I" beam.  

The first thing I would do is streach a string along edge of "I" beam to see 
if it sagging, if not, keep string in place during project as a guide.  Make a 
accurate messurement from bottom of "I" beam to floor for each location.  Go 
to a steel erector/fabricator (look in yellow pages)and have column made 
with both top and bottom plate so finished size equals your measurement.  They 
do it every day.  With plenty of cottom and one big hammer, carefully place 
columns along old and rusty.   Cost is about 50 cents a # plus fabrication
charge.

Some other thoughts,  Make sure your temp jack are along old and rusty columns 
and not in the middle of the span.  Your concrete is about 4 " thick and the 
ground has probally settled leaving an air gap.  Your temp jack will collapse
concrete.  Final thought,  are the columns rusted thorugh? or is it just 
surface rust?

Regards,

Dave Boisvert
Central Area System Support Group
312-640-2699 (8-421-2699)

    
    Clarification please.  You are talking about lally columns right?
    Hollow steel tubes, adjustable height, screw at top, etc. and not
    cement filled columns.  These are only supposed to be temporary
    support.
    
    I would guess that they don't have the proper footing under them.
    And if it's an old basement, the floor is most likely NOT 4" thick
    or anywhere close.  Any more information on what you have there?
    But it does sound like the floor has broken up from the current
    setup.
    
    I guess your real question is can you get away with just putting
    in new temporary columns or should you do it right.  Since you're
    moving soon, I can see the dilema.  Would the presence of the temporary
    supports holdup a sale of the property?  Hard to tell.

    Phil

    .-2 brings up a good poitn at the end - are these REALLY rusted
    through?  Have you been told by someone (home inspector, town building
    inspector) that this is something that MUST be done?  If not, then ask
    one of them, and if they see no problem then there is no problem.  it
    is REAL HARD to believe that it is seriously rusted through unless you
    have a swimming pool in the basement.  Also, remember that the column
    itself (the metal) is not the primary source of structure support for
    the beam:  it is the concrete inside the column.  The column is mostly
    there to keep the concrete in place.
    
    Now, if you doo need to go through with this, you need to determine if
    you have easy access to the BOTTOM of the column.  This is not going to
    generally be easy.  The most common practice is for the slab to be
    poured LAST when the home is built; this means that the column itself
    is surrounded on the bottom by concrete.  IF this is the case, it gets
    messy, because you are going to crack up the slab, and could run the
    risk of cracking the footer at the same time, no to mention also
    cracking the concrete under the jack that is holding up the beam while
    you do this.
    
    If the bottom of the lally column is not surrounded by the slab, then
    just jack up the jack, following the guidelines in a previous note (1/4
    max per 24 hours is what I have also seen in the books), and at the
    same time disengaging the top place of the column from the beam
    (usually they use spikes).  Once y ou get a bit of leeway at the top,
    get out something big and persuasive (like a 40# sledge), and wack away
    at the TOP of the lally column.  Make sure you don't hit the jack or
    move the column in the direction of the jack.  Go side to side against
    the beam's direction.  Eventually (HA!) you will get the top of the
    column away from the beam.  When you get close to this point, be sure
    to have a couple of guys helping you, as the lally column is very heavy
    (more than one person this side of the Hulk can handle), and gravity is
    on its side.  If it falls on its own, you'll have one h*** of a crack
    in the slab.
    
    As you see, this is not too simple.  Be sure you need to do this before
    really commiting to it.
    

    Thanks for all the input so far. Here is a bit more input on my
    situation.
    
    The columns are steel pipes about 6" in diameter and are hollow...
    yes hollow. i know this because at least one is rusted all the way
    through at the bottom.. I have the screw type floor jacks.
    
    Does the code say they must be filled with cement? I like the idea
    of just putting one in next to the old one. How/where do I find
    out about the codes?

    tm

    Best source, by definition, is your town building inspector.  It
    doesn't matter what is in the code book, as he is the one that makes
    the decision (and THAT is in the code book to make it legal).  He also
    has the authority to make local decisions which could involve extending
    what the book actually says.
    
    If you live in Mass, get the code book from the State Bookstore in
    Boston; the number is in the phone book, the location is 1/2 way up the
    hill by the capitol building; I don't remember the name of the
    builiding itself.  They will mail it to you if you call.  Be sure to
    specify that you want the version for single-family dwellings.  I
    walked in and said "WTFB" and what I got for about 2-3 times the cost
    was the entire code book (including the single-family chapters); Anyone
    want info on how to build a shopping center?
    

B.O.C.A. specifies span strengths for wood and steel.  Usually village code 
specifies B.O.C.A. 

Last Sept I added 1500 sq. ft. to my house and put 
in a 25 foot long 12" high "I" beem with only two columns (at the ends).
Standard size I beams are 6-8" high spanning 10-12 feet.  I didn't want a 
column in the middle of the Great Room (still not so great!).  They were not
filled with concrete.  I have had a string on the "I" beam since the crane 
drop it in, it still is level. (all framing is done, no water bed yet!)

I would still just slide the new ones along side of the rusties and...

Don't raise it unless it sags!

Dave

	I am adding a bedroom to my basement. I want the bedroom to be half
  of the entire basement ( total basement interior dimensions is about 22.5
  by 33 feet. A 2 story Gambrel.  Lally columns  are in the middle of both
  half's of the basement and under the stairs.  I want to take out one of these
  Lally columns so possibly in the future I can put a pool table in the middle
  of this room in the basement.  Current options suggested to me :

	1 ) replace wooden beam with 6-10" steel I-beam

	2 ) place 1/2 -> 5/8 Flitch Plates on either side of the current
		wooden beam and run bolts through the current wooden beam

	BTW - both options would entail putting a new Lally column next to
	the outside wall and another one under the stairs ( basically at either
	end of the 15 foot span.

  Which suggestion sounds more structurally sound ?  Any other suggestions out
  there ?  Which would be easier to do ?  Any suggestions on a contractor to
  do it or how to go about doing it myself ? any and all suggestions are
  welcome.  Picture below follows.  House is in Pepperell, MA

	Jim Krieger POOL::KRIEGER, DTN 381-1819

  ============================================================
  ============================================================
  |                           ||                             |
  |                           ||                             |-------------
  |                           ||                             |
  | outside                   ||                             |-------------
  | << wall                   || << Lally                    |
  |                           || Column                      |--- Stairs --
  |                           ||                             |
  |                           ||                             |-------------
  |                           ||                             |
  |                           ||                             |-------------
  |                           ||                             |
  |                           ||                             |-------------
  <-----------7.5 feet--------><-------------7.5 feet-------->

    I would suggest using a "glue laminated" beam of proper dimension
    to meet structural requirments.  My preference for wood beam over
    I-beam is strictly aesthetic....you can incorporate the wod beam
    into the celing.  If you plan a dropped ceiling, this may not make
    a difference.
    
    Having just finished a basement pool room I would suggest you 
    determine whether you want a 7' or 8' table and be sure that you
    leave enough room for "stick" length. I have a 22'x11.5' rm. and
    find that I have to use a short cue stick more than I'd like to.
    You should plan on 15' for room width and 18' for rm. length (8'
    table.) Most billiard supply houses offer a chart tht will provide
    all the necessary room dimensions.......plan AHEAD (learn from my
    mistakes :-) !!

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    I have a column whose location is inconvenient (for my plans).  I'm
    contemplating removing it, after adding a pair which would flank it,
    with something like 6 feet between them.  (Columns are approximately
    8' on center.)
    
    Is this reasonable and practical, or will the effort be such that
    I should revise my plans?
    
    Dick

    It would depend on what's above the one you propose to remove. If there
    is a major load bearing member that is directly above it, then its not
    a simple matter of adding two new ones on either side. I recently had
    plans drawn up, which required an ADDITIONAL lally being put in to
    handle a point load. You may want an architect or structural engineer
    to study the situation first.
    
    Eric
    

    	Let's see if I got this right: spacing now is 8  8  8  8  8  etc
    	and you want to go 8  8 5 6 5 8  8  ?
    	  As -1 mentions, the only question would be if there is a point
    load directly above the column you want to remove. If this is a central
    beam with no point loads above removed column, you are easily OK.
    	- Chris

    .5, .6:
    
    Hm.  I believe that what's above it on the first floor is a bearing
    wall, as there is a wall dividing the entire house along the long axis.
    
    It is perforated by two archways and the cellar door, and a hot-air
    return, but I would think it does a fair bit to support the second
    floor (which is divided in the same fashion.
    
    What I have right now is this:
    
    
    foun-		col		col		col		foun-
    dation     <- 8'->	      <- 8' ->	      <- 8' ->	      <- 8' ->	dation
      |									  |
      |			 O		 O		 O		  |
      |									  |
    
    and what I was considering is this:
                                                  new         new
    foun-		col		col       col	      col	foun-
    dation     <- 8'->	      <- 8' ->	    <- 5'->   <- 6' ->   <-5'->	dation
      |									  |
      |			 O		 O	   @	       @	  |
      |									  |
    
      !=======        =====================================+       +      !
    
     ^^ It occurs to me now, thanks to your questions, that the major wall ^^
    probably has its ends (where the arches begin) over the first & third
    column;  removing the rightmost would then have several feet of
    unsupported bearing wall, which sounds bad to me.  I also have no idea
    of what to expect regarding footings for the replacement posts.
    
    Thanks for the help, fellows -- I'm going to make some measurements
    tonight, and think more strongly about changing the plans around.
    
    Dick

    When I was doing research on adding a lally column for a heavy point
    load, I went back to the builder to find out the size of the pads under
    the existing lally columns. I found out that they were 24" x 24" x 12"
    thick.
    
    Eric

I have a medium-old house that seems to have had additions put on from time 
to time.  I have "temporary" lallys (with the screw top) in several places
in the basement.  My home inspector told me I should get them replaced.  
I'm also looking at putting in some extra closet space in the basement, 
so it would be useful to get the columns replaced first.

I don't think I want to do this work myself.  What type of contractor would
do this sort of work?  If you have any recomendations for the Nashua NH area,
please send me mail.  Also, any advise would be great, since I can understand
the need to support the house, but don't know anything specific about this
sort of job (like whether someone was giving me horrible advise), short of
checking references for former satisfied customers...

Charlie

    RE: .9
    
    Why not replace them yourself?  I put in about 6 in my old
    house(160yrs) myself.  You need a good footing under them,say one cubic
    foot of concrete. I learned the ~hard~ way,that you measure the present
    length and cut them to the same length(lumber yards will cut them).
    Remember to take into account the plate on the bootom and top.
    You can use a screw type support near the lally to hold up the house
    as you are positioning the lally.  Remember to install the lally plumb!
    
    Marc H.

>Why not replace them yourself?

While I can certainly screw in a light bulb, I don't trust myself to get
the supports for my house correct.  I simply don't know enough about what
needs to be done.  (Building a closet is more my speed of diy improvements!)

So how do I go about finding someone to frivolously spend my money to do this?
What would they be listed under in the Yellow Pages?  Anyone you'd recomend
in the Nashua NH area?

Charlie