Conference 7.286::home_work

    Most of these type of nailers are powered by a service air compresser.
    The compressor is a separate unit from the nail gun (Bostitch type).
     These things are very powerful and depending on the model, can
    drive 4" spikes like a hot knife into butter. The cost for the nail
    gun alone will run between $300 & 500 depending on the type. The
    nails are also expensive $20 to $70 a box. And the compressor is
    another $500. The bottom line is a $1.0K to own a complete system.
    I've used them in the past and they can surely cut down on your
    nailing time. Unless you are going to do alot of work I'd recommend
    renting a system. I would expect the rental cost would run about
    $30/day & the cost of the nails. 

    
    If you're talking about nailing the subfloor to joists, consider
    using drywall screws instead. A 3/8" VSR drill and a few philips
    bits will get the job done with ease, and I guarantee no squeaks
    for the life of the subfloor, or I will retract this reply.

Screws...  I like it.  What's more, it would make a screw gun easier to justify.

Has anybody tried this?  Sounds reasonable to me!

-mark

    Yes, I've done it a lot.  It's the first class way to go.  As .2
    said, a VS drill with a Phillips bit works just as well if not better
    than a drywall gun for this stuff.  Use 2" screws for a 3/4 subfloor.
    

    
    re .4:
    
    Yes, a drill is all that's necessary. The drywall gun is great for
    putting up drywall, because you can control exactly the depth of
    the screw head, which is hard with a drill because the drywall is
    so fragile. For plywood, however, the drywall gun is probably overkill.
    

    I found that keeping a small cup of liquid soap to dip the screws
    into really eases the effort the drill has to do especially if you
    are using 2" screws.
    
    -al

    Do you use screws exclusively? Or do you only use screws around
    the edges after nailing the center of the plywood sheets into place?
    
    -- Mike Kilian

    RE: .7
    
    	Whenever I screw down a sub-floor, I usually use 2" or 2-1/2"
    	drywall screws about 8" o.c.  I did this in a 5' x 8' bathroom
    	in which I put a tile floor.  I also did it in my 20' x 24'
    	family room (currently under construction).
    
    	It takes a little more time, but I was able to lay down and
    	screw down the entire floor in about a half day.  I'm sure it
    	would have been (a little?) quicker just nailing it, but at
    	least I'll never get any squeeks.
    
    - Mark
    

    Ok, we're talking about different types of subfloors.
    
    For any plywood over �" thick, use drywall screws. If this is the
    first layer over joists, run a bead of construction adhesive on
    the joist tops, then screw every 8" along the joists. For a second
    layer of plywood (�" or thicker, in preparation for ceramic tile)
    screw evey 8" in both directions; if non-T&G, screw every 4" along
    the edges.
    
    For �" plywood, typical in preparing for a vinyl flooring, I still
    favor ring shank nails, again every 8" in both directions and every
    4" along edges. For thin plywood, the holding power of screws is
    not necessary; and under vinyl, it is inportant to get the fasteners
    absolutely flush with the subfloor (which I find hard to do with
    screws, as I don't own a screw gun).
    
    Whatever your favorite fastener, the proper length is 3 times the
    thickness of whatever you're fastening (2�" screws for �" plywood
    is overkill).

I know this may be hard to believe, but "This Old House" finally had something
useful on (even though it was a re-run).  They did the attacthment to the old
Victorian and our hero, Norm, decided to to a pneumatic nail driver.  he pointed
out that the nails were coated with a glue that would make it easier to insert 
and when dry would hold better.  I was most impressed.  He (and his unnamed 
crew) did a floor and sidewalls in a single day.  It looked like one could 
easily do a very large floor in an hour or two.  I would suspect this would have
the equivalent holding power of screws (assuming a reasonable quality glue on 
the nails).

So, has anybody every used one of these?  Do they cost a lot to rent?  How easy
is it to get a nail though your hand?

I noticed they're on sale at Trendlines for around $400 (though that doesn't
include a compressor).  An interesting option would be to buy one, use it for
a month or two and sell it for $300.  At $100 for a couple of months it'd be a 
lot cheaper than renting.  But then you have to dig up a compressor.

thoughts?

-mark

    I have used one. I doubt you will have a probl;em finding one to
    rent. They are rented here in Colorado.
    My neighbor is in construction and uses one on the job. We put up
    two 6' privacy fences in one day. They make the work go so fast
    you better have the beer cooling down when you start the job.
    
    One word of warning if you hit your finger with this hammer
    you will need a crowbar to un-nail your finger before you can suck
    on it.8-) They will shoot a nail about twenty feet with one and
    stick it into wood. nuff said...
    
    The price of the nails is somewhat higher than normal nails but
    the price diff dosent matter when the job gos 3 time faster.
    
    They also have staple guns that work under the same idea and make
    putting siding on seem like fun.(note I said SEEM like fun.)
    
    -j
    

    The guns I've used have a pressure switch at the tip.  So, to insert
    a nail through your finger, you'd have to depress the pressure tip
    (this doesn't take much effort, but would take *serious* thought
    for me) with said finger and then pull the trigger.
    
    Depending on the gun (framing guns imbed spikes), the nail would
    probably go right through the finger.
    
    In other words, most are rather safe.
    
    Regarding -.2, buy a Bostich Framing gun (stick nailer, not ring) and
    an Emglo 1 3/4 hp compressor (horizontal, not vertical tanks). 
    That way, I'll have just what I want when you decide to sell it,
    cheap :-).

    The problem with the safety found on most air nailers is that it
    is not all that effective.
    
    A common way to use an air nailer (or stapler for that matter) is
    to leave the trigger depressed.  Then, whenever you land on something
    hard enough to release the safety, WHAM; in goes the fastener. 
    The problem arises when you happen to get any portion of your anatomy
    in the way.
    
    - Mark

>    The problem with the safety found on most air nailers is that it
>    is not all that effective.
>    
>    A common way to use an air nailer (or stapler for that matter) is
>    to leave the trigger depressed...  

That's like saying a common way to operate an automobile is to drive
while drunk.  The safties on pneumatic nailers are very effective when
the equipment is used properly.  If you don't use the equipment 
properly, you increase your chances of getting hurt.  You also make a 
hash out of the work you're doing.  

I used to teach carpentry and one of the little sayings we used was "you
have to be smarter than the tool you're trying to use."  We used to 
teach people very carefully about using the pneumatic stapler we had, 
then make them pass a test on use, then use it only under supervision 
for a while, and STILL, as soon as we let them use it unsipervised one 
out of four would end up be treated for dammage to themselves from a 
ricochet because they let the gun have control instead of keeping 
control for themselves.  And virtually everyone had to scrap work 
because they didn't position the stapler properly before it fired.

Power nailers make the work go so fast, why  not take the second to
position it properly and then squeeze the trigger? 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    RE: .14
    
    	I VERY much agree.  I have never operated any air tool, (stapler,
    	sander, grinder, or otherwise) unless I was sure I know how
    	to *correctly* operate it.
    
    	I was just pointing out probably the most common cause of nailing
    	yourself;  so that others could learn (at least) one way NOT
    	to operate this kind of tool.
    
    - Mark

    Wow.  It never occurred to me to just hold the trigger in position.
    I figure I wasted several thousand squeeze motions pulling that
    darn thing each time I wanted to drive a nail.  And all the while
    I thought I was *saving* effort.
    
    Maybe through osmosis -- I never attended the class in .14 -- I
    learned great respect for nailers.  My pattern is to position it
    carefully, push it down to release the pressure tip, and then pull
    the trigger.
    
    I'll be framing an addition soon.  Maybe I should just tape the
    trigger in the fire position and swing the gun from the air hose.
    Sounds good to me .-)  !  
    

re: last few

Good friend of mine worked construction during the summers between high 
school classes. He managed to nail his hand to a 2X4. He had done 
everything correctly EXCEPT that his hand was on the other side of the 
board. Nail goes through board then hand.

Bottom line: THINK

Chuck

    re: proper use.
    I agree the safty interlocks are there but I have seen/known many
    people that went to the school that teaches interlocks are for
    defeating.
    Under prescribed operating conditions it is a safe operation
    Its just all of the accidents looking for a place to happen that
    causes the problems.
    Belive it or not the guy that taught me told me the trigger was
    the safety and to fire the nail i should press down. 
    Exactly the wrong way to use it and he owns the nailer. I wonder
    how many of his employees have been damaged by improper methods.
    
    -j
                                                          
    

    re .6   I once read a tip (probably in Fine Wood Working) where
    a guy would 'wash' a freshly bought batch of screws in a mix of
    parrafin and mineral spirits.  Maybe bees wax and parafin.
    
    I once read a tip about using soap.  I saved scraps of soap in a
    jar and rubbed the screw through the soap just before using.  DON'T
    DO IT!  They wind up rusting real easy.  I don't know about the
    moisture content of liquid soap.  The above solution sounds a lot
    better although I haven't tried it yet.
    
    Safety in tools. re last few.  I once heard of a guy putting up
    sheet rock on metal studs.  If the metal gives too much, the screw
    can't get started.  He had his helper hold the stud to keep it from
    flexing.  About the third screw he heard "Put it in REVERSE!!!!"

    	 Has anybody out there had any experience with PASLODE 
    	"compressor-less" power nailers/staplers? Paslode's prices seem
    	to be in line with air guns from other makers but Paslode doesn't
    	need a compressor. Am I missing something or is Paslode really a
    	viable alternative to compressors, hoses and 220v lines?	
    
    	 I am planning a major renovation that would put a power nailer
    	to good use. Does any body have anything good/bad to say about
    	any other nailers and/or compressors on the market?
    
    
    	Thanks in advance for the input,
    
	Glenn
    	

    
    	This note also entered in DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS

Fine Homebuilding had a review of the Paslode nailers about a year or so ago.
They work by exploding a small charge of natural gas.  I don't remember whether 
you need to buy gas cylinders or whether they're rechargable.  Most libraries 
get Fine Homebuilding now, so you should be able to find the review.  Product 
reviews are usually in the back section of the magazine, after the articles.

My vague remembrance of the article was that there are some aspects in which 
the Paslode is much nicer than an air gun, and some where it's a pain.  I 
remember that they raved about not having to drag hoses along with you, 
particularly in high or awkward situations.  And I remember that they mentioned 
that the exhaust from the Paslode becomes annoying or worse in a poorly 
ventilated area.

Paul

    My brother-in-law has a Paslode nailer and it's a fantastic tool!
    the "charge" is butane, ignited by a rechargable battery.
    Great tool!
    
    
    

    
     They *do* make a good gun.  But why pay the bucks for something
    that won't do the complete job, (unless it shoots 8 - 16 plus
    finish and roofing).
    
     Go to the rental store and rent for a week.  Save yourself
    four hundred dollars!
    
     "Cheap Rick"    8^J
    

    I would like to re-open this note with the following:
    
    We are getting ready to build our dream home and have looked only
    slightly at air nailers.  My significant other (Karen) was rather
    disappointed at the size of the gun.  I remember the name duo-fast from
    days gone by as one of the premo names in guns.
    
    I picture a couple of major uses for a nail gun.
    
    o	Framing
    o	Roofing
    o	Siding
    o	Sheetrock ????
    o	other?
    
    The particular gun that I saw used 1 to 3 1/2 inch nails.  This would
    probably be what we would need for framing although they had a smaller
    model that shot up to 2 inch nails.
    
    Questions:
    
    Is there one all purpose gun that we could buy that would do the job?
    
    How do the price of the nails for guns compare to the old method?
    
    Compressed air vs. other/portables?
    
    We are also going to be building a barn, stable and other outbuilding
    and probably want to use the gun for those jobs as well.
    
    Thanks for your input !
    
    Jim

    Any price considerations fade to insignificance when you
    take into account the time savings which you get with a
    pneumatic nailer.  It took a crew of four (pros) a total
    of 3 days to mostly frame my house (2 story, walk-up
    attic, 2400 ft�).  Since getting a house closed up is one
    of the BIG concerns in build-it-yourself situations, the
    nailer really wins big.
    
    And even though the nailer might feel a bit "hefty", the
    work to hammer in zillions of nails BY HAND would be much
    greater over time.
    
    Bostitch seems pretty popular, as well as Hitachi.  The
    coil nailers are somewhat more compact than the stick ones,
    but the coiled nails are slightly more expensive.  Most
    general-purpose guns accept 6d -> 16d nails; you can get
    ones for finishing work which accept smaller sizes.  I'd
    go with a general-purpose gun; great for framing, sheathing,
    and finish siding.  Won't hack roofing nails, though; you
    could use a roofing "hammer" with "staples" there.
    
    Remember to factor in the cost of the air compressor as well.
    Figure somewhere around $400 for the nailer and $250-400 for
    an air compressor.  If you buy a compressor, don't immediately
    pick one of the compact jobs for nailers; you may want to use
    the compressor for other uses later (spray painting), and the
    slight additional cost is probably worth it.  No electricity
    on site implies a gasoline-powered compressor.
    
    I vaguely remember Spags charging $75 for 10,000 nails (16d).
    That was a coil for a Bostitch unit; others are similar.
                                                      

    Sales Service Inc in Allston and Worcester (Mass) sell a variety
    of guns (Bostich, Senco, Paslode). They also service just about
    all brands, and frequently have used/reconditioned guns for 
    very cheap.  I bought a Paslode framing gun from them 2 yrs ago
    for $125. Its still working great after an addition, tool shed
    and interior remodeling.
    
    I prefer a stick load gun to a coil type.  The framing gun is
    suitable for framing (can't beat it for toe nailing), and
    nailing sheathing (Plywood) down for exterior walls, roofs,
    and flooring. Sales service also carries a variety of nails.
    I preferred the cement coated flooring nails to the ring nails.
    
    

I can't remember which issue, but in the last year or so of Fine Homebuilding,
there was an article reviewing the major players in the power nailer arena.

I'll try an remember to look it up.

- Mark

    anyone happen to know what a Bostitch N80 (?) stick nailer is going for
    these days?  Is Spags still the cheapest?
    
    Fra

    They aren't cheap - expect anywhere from $450-550 for an N80S
    (stick) and about the same price for an N80C (coil); the coil
    unit is often a little more expensive.  I believe Trend Lines
    had one of the cheapest prices I've seen lately; on sale the
    N80S was in the low $400 range.
    
    The less expensive alternative is to buy a used one; they run
    anywhere from $200-300 on average.  I paid $200 for my N80S,
    added another $25 for a replacement seal kit and a replacement
    bumper kit, and spent about 30 minutes rebuilding the unit.
    It works great, and it cost me half of what a new unit would.
    
    The only gotcha here is to be sure you test the nailer before
    you buy a used one!  A good source for used nailers is the
    "Tools" section of those bargain hunter's paper - like the
    WANTADvertiser.  With the current slowdown in the construction
    business you often see half a dozen nailers for sale in an issue.

    Couldn't find a note on this - powder actuated tools
    
    I'm using the basic remington tool to fix 2x4's to a concrete
    basement floor & walls with 2.5" fasteners and the most powerful
    charge (yellows).  I'm having two problems.  First, the fasteners
    won't go in all the way.  About a quarter inch is still protruding.
    They only seem to supply 1.5" (too short) or 2.5" - 2" would be
    perfect.  If I hammer them down, they either lose their grip or
    split the wood.
    
    Second, so far I've TWICE managed to jam an empty cartridge in the
    chamber so that nothing will shift it.  The store has been good enough
    to change two tools without quibbling, but I must be doing something
    wrong.  
    
    Anyone got any tips for this?
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

RE: .0

    If you are located in New England (which by your node you are), you are
    probably having the same problem I called Remington about a couple of years
    back.  It seems the concrete mix used in this neck of the woods is a
    harder mix than is used in other parts of the country.  The result is even
    with the #4 power leads, the fasteners fail to seat all the way.

    The recommendation was to try a different place to paste the wood.  It is
    also the case that trying to set the fastener in concrete right on top of
    a large piese of the aggregate makes driving it in more difficult.  The
    other alternative was to get a commercial unit.  From what I understand,
    they have even more powerful loads for the commercial units.  The down
    sides to the commercial units are cost and (most likely) licensing.

    Bottom line is there isn't a whole lot you can do about it...sigh.

- Mark

    I had the same problem and ended up using construction adhesive on
    both the walls and floors when the nails wouldn't go in all the way
    or just shattered the concrete to dust.  Worked surprisingly well too!
    -TB

    I predrilled pressure treated wood, then placed the nail in, and then
    used the power nailer.. That worked  good for me. I also used
    construction adhesive with it... I think I've seen or have 2 inch
    nails too.
    
    Jean

    You should be able to locate 2" nails if you call around. I was able to
    get some a the local ACE Hardware store. To be on the safe side you
    might want to include a bead of construction adhesive.
    As for using the tool, it's not your fault. You need three hands. Two
    hold the barrel and hammer handle fully compressed while positioning.
    and a third to grab the hammer and fire. Vertical nailing is much
    easier, get your technique down with the flooring sleeper first. Hitting
    the firing pin perfectly square seems to help as well. And running into
    a batch of duds is always unpleasantly surprising.
    Safety first, of course, eye protection and ear plugs need to be worn
    and a glove on the gun hand doesn't hurt either.

    Good luck,

    /Jim

    
    Must be the concrete - the 1" fasteners for the outlet boxes went
    right in.  I finished off with the liquid nails.  I guess the other
    alternative would be to nail down 3x1's 12 OC with the gun and nail
    or screw another layer of 3x1's at right angles across them.
        
    Thanks for the input
    
    Colin
    
    

re: .0

I've run into the same problem. There's plenty of discussion about this
(and some helpful hints) in Note 1739 in NOTED::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS.

-Jack