Conference 7.286::home_work

    About $150.  Yeah, it sounds outrageous (and to my (and your, and
    probably most people's) way of thinking IS outrageous, but that
    seems to be what surveyors cost.
    How "official" does it need to be?  If you have another known corner
    of your lot somewhere, you might be able to measure it off yourself
    and get it close enough for putting up a hedge.  The lot dimensions
    ought to be in your deed, or the town will have a plot plan or
    something you can get a copy of.

    I just paid $110 to have my 6160 sq ft plot surveyed as part of 
    refinancing my mortgage.  Yes these guys do make a lot of money.
    In college students use to take the surveying course, then get summer
    jobs paying $20/hour.
                       			=Ralph=

There are at least two types of surveys done, the one that most banks do
are called something like TAPE SURVEYS and all someone does is come out with
a tape measure, look for some markers and do a ballpark measurement.  >$100
sounds very high for this.

In getting ready to do my addition the building inspector and architect made it
very clear that a tape survey is worthless (leagally that is).  It's fine for a
bank to know that the house is situated on the proper building lot, but when it
comes down to zoning, and seeing who EXACTLY owns what, it's necessary to get
out the transits and do very accurate measurements.  This type of survey usually
runs over $200.

As for determining a line for a hedge or fence, why not just talk to your
neighbor and see is there is a mutually agreeable line for you to use.  
Admittedly if your neighbor moved, and the new owner surveyed and found the
fence on his property you could be in big trouble.  Then again, maybe you're
building the fence because you don't talk to your neighbor!   8-)

-mark

    Who's your surveyor?   I need a lot survey before I can build a
    garage.   Since the builder hasn't seen fit to place the landmarks
    yet, a survey will cost me well over $1000.   And, while he's at
    it, he said, he'll put in the landmarks that the builder should.
    I laughed at him so loud on the phone that he hung up.

I know it sounds expensive, but there's more to a survey than just 
measuring the lot line.  The guy certifies that his survey is correct.  
If he screws up, and you build something on someone else's land, his 
head goes on the block.  Most of today's formalities are settling who to 
blame when things go wrong.  That's what building permits, surveys, 
certification of tradesmen and all that is about.  So, some of the money 
goes to paying his expenses, and some is just 'cause he's agreed to take 
the fall if he's wrong.  Compare it to the cost of having a  DEC field 
service guy come out, and it's not so bad.
						>>>==>PStJTT

    I would have tried to eyeball it myself put the two official
    surveyor marks are over 300 feet away, on the other side of a pond
    and behind a line of trees.
    
    The surveyor is Guerard Survey located in downtown Westboro.
    
    There currently is no neighbor, just a brand new house.
    
    I know to within 2-3 feet how the lot line runs.  Should I just
    be conservative and plant some stuff inside the line by some distance?
    
    -al

    I may be wrong, but some towns (Manchester, NH, for example) require
    that a fence or other such bordering structures br placed a certain
    distance INSIDE your lot.
    This was mentioned by a neighbor who had been to an ordinance meeting
    for a good part of an evening (4 hours long) and heard every story
    by homeowners trying to do this and that, etc.
    I would check with your local officals before starting.
    
    John
    

You mean that a surveyor is actually responsible???  A miracle!!!  Everyone else
in the building racket charges outrageous fees, but are they responsible if
something goes wrong???  Noooooop!

Somebody knowledgable should start a note on this...

Jim. 

    re: .8
    
    It depends on what you mean by 'responsible'.  My neighbor has just
    gone throught a Zoning Board of Adjustment hearing to keep his pool
    and garage.  Seems that the surveyor used by the home builder screwed
    up.  He submitted the plot plans to the town (Londonderry, N.H.),
    which accepted them.  So, house gets built.  Four years later, the
    home owner builds a two story garage with a silo on hte side.
    According to the original plot plan, he maintained the 15 feet side
    clearance.  
    
    Next year, the house is sold and now the new owner puts in a pool,
    apron, and fence.  He too, kept the appropriate clearance.  Now
    it's time to refinance.  The bank sends out a surveyor and guess
    what he finds.  The garage is 7 feet from the side boundry.  But
    the pool's apron and fence are on the next door neighbor's yard!
    
    The town says....yes, we screwed up by accepting the bad plot plan,
    but if you want to keep your garage and pool (et al), you must get
    a varience.  And, he must negotiate with the next door neighbor
    to readjust the boundry to recover ownership of his apron and fence.
    
    The point is....WHERE"S the original surveyor who is "responsible"?
    He has no financial responsibility for the results of his shoddy
    work!
    
    /bruce
    
   

    I need to get one side of my lot surveyed for the same reason. 
    After asking around, believe me, $150.00 is not a bad price. 
    A friend of mine just spent $350.00 to have a small lot (about 
    10,000 sq ft) surveyed.
    
    Denis

***WARNING TO ALL***

What is practical and what is legal are two different things.  If the
surveyor "guarantees" the accuracy of the work and later its found that
he screwed up the legal question may be (and I emphasize - MAY BE) solved 
but as soon as you have to go into any legal activities to solve the problem 
your sunk. In these cases an ounce of prevention is worth 40 metric tons of 
cure.  Once you have to litigate any rational solution is lost in a sea
of time and money.  Be conservative and avoid these problems at all cost.

-peter

RE: .-1

I beg your pardon, it was nice of you to caution all us folks, but your note
has little or no usefull information about how to avoid getting into such
a mess (which is your advise)

Can you give any better advise?

Jim.

    My younger brother works for a Civil Engineering firm (he likes
    being outside). Although 150 dollars sounds like a lot, let me
    give you some reasons for the costs.
    
    1. demand. Your resight means very little to a lot of these firms.
    Many surveying firms are owned or affiliated with a civil engineering
    firm. These guys do whole developments of 50-200 houses at a time.
    To them, they are being nice taking time to drive out and do a couple
    of sights when they could be doing dozens of them on a major project.
    
    2. overhead. all you see is a couple of guys in flannel shirts making
    a couple of sights. You don't see the office back in town with the
    computer systems, drafting equipment, secretaries etc. and that
    edm they are using starts a 2 grand while a good laser one with
    a recording instrument is pushing 12 grand. someone has to pay for
    the productivity equipment. 
    
    3. rules. here in the north east, you are paying for what they know.
    a registared surveyor has his B.S. already plus 5 years apprenticeship.
    What would you expect a systems person with that kind of experience
    to charge you for a couple of hours of time. the clowns who do
    "surveys" for a bank mortage are idiots that real surveyors really
    look down upon. Do you know how may rules there are in regards to
    wetlands laws? Make the NEC book like light reading.
    
    4. a registared surveyor can be held liable for screw-ups. Never
    mind a tort suit, you can make him stop practicing his trade. i
    know of a case in Vt where a surveyor lost his licence because of
    some questionable work.
    
    5. you should check around as to who you are getting. there are
    some good firms, and there are some real hosers around. Best to
    check with a couple of large builders as to who is good and who
    to avoid. the grapevine gets the word out fast when a builder gets
    screwed because of a surveyor.
    
    yes, you could get someone cheap , but to have that stamp in the
    lower corner, it will cost you some money. for bushes, i'd just
    move them back a bit, but for anything serious, I'd talk to a
    good surveyor.
                                                        
    john

    
     I am looking at these prices that are here in this note and chuckle!I
    want to get my plot redone so I knkow the boundries.
     I have a plot that is 2.9 acres and I am not sure about the lines.I
    called Perkins in Clinton Mass to get a cost estimate.I sent him
    a copy of the deed and some other info.There is nothing that is
    strange or weird about this land,Mostly flat with trees which are
    not too thick.I got the quote back several days ago.The quote is
    FIVE THOUSAND ONE HUNDRED dollars......Just to put markers every
    200'...   Excuse meeee,must be gold markers.
    
      Anybody have a good civil eng. firm that seems to have prices
    that are a little more down to earth?
    
    					Wayne

    
    Sorry Wayne, my experience so far tells me that I should have become
    a civil engineer. Perkins has at least 2k of my hard earned money
    and we aren't done yet.
    
    Although 5K for a plot plan does sound very steep. You may want
    to do some reseach. If you can find out who did the last survey
    on the lot, and they are still around, they would be a lot cheaper.
    What you are paying for is their certification that the lines are
    correct. Once they certify the plan, they can be held liable for
    errors. Therefore they are very careful.
    
    As a result, they are very distrustful of previous markers/deeds
    and will recheck to the extreme (read time + money) to verify them.
    However, if they did the previous survey or it was done by another
    engineer known and respected by them, they can cut some corners.
    
    Finally, the law of supply and demand is in effect here. Most
    engineering firms in the Northeast are swimming in work as a result
    of the building boom. Your job may be too small/too much trouble
    for them and the price may be intended to discourage you. If you
    wait till the current slow down accelerates, they may be more receptive
    later. (Slow down accelerates?!?!? Scarey, but in this context it
    makes sense) :-)
    
        Start with the planning board in your town. If one was done in the
    area during the past 10-15 years they would probably know about
    it.
    						Mark
    

    
     Rep .15,
    
     The privious work was done by a firm called Yankee Eng. from 
    Ashberham Mass. I have not been able to locate them so I contacted
    Perkins.They did my deep hole and Perc test last May. That is another
    story.... The guy they sent double booked himself and left my site
    for about 3 hours.I had given them a 4 hundred dollar retainer and
    several weeks after the job was done,I got a bill for "more paper
    work". I called them up since the engineer is paid by the hour and
    not the job and told them of the missing 3 hours.I ended up getting
    a 38 dollar rebate...
    
    
    			Wayne

    The surveyor I hired has marked one of my property lines.  I
    now have orange flagged stakes in the ground; should I expect a
    "certificate" or some other formal piece of paper to complete the
    job ??  (It was not discussed when I hired him; I simply asked for
    a survey.)
    
    If I decide to add on to my house some time in the future, is there
    something I should do now (ie. make the markers more permanant)
    that will save me another survey ?  Or are the 'ol rusted rods good
    enough ??
    
    Dave
    
    

    Are the orange flagged stakes wooden?   What are at the major
    boundaries?   When I got my lot surveyed, they used the orange wooden
    stakes only between rather permanent metal rod markers at ground
    level.  Those are marked "PC" (Property Corner), and were also sprayed
    with orange paint.   There'll probably be a little red flag tied
    to a nearby branch or tree wherever the PC markers are.

re:  .18

Did you ask them to certify the accuracy of the line?  If not they won't.
Now in 6 months when your ready to build an addition on your house and 
the building inspector wants a certified property line to measure from, 
call up the surveyor and ask for a certified line.  They'll come out 
and say "yep, the markers are in the right spot" and bill you about 
twice as much as the first trip.  

Re:  various responses on resposibility

Yes, surveyors are resposible for the accuracy of certified plot plans, and 
they do pay large insurance and bond premiums.  Also, haven't you people 
heard of Title Insurance.

Side story:  I have a 1960 Jaguar that I am rebuilding.  It is located at the 
end of my driveway.  The town has an ordinance that any unregistered car must 
be atleast 100 ft from the front of the property and 50 ft from the side.  
The car happens to be at about 100ftx50ft +-5ft from the property lines.
Someone complained, but the town drop the charges when I pointed out that they 
would require a survey to show that the car is illegally stored(I shot a line 
to prove to myself that is legally parked).  My corner markers happen to be
a metal pin and 3ftx3ft boulder.

Brian

    Within 3 weeks of the survey you should get a certified plot plan.
    If you need to make any changes on the land within 6 months and
    the stakes are still in place, the same surveyor should be able to 
    do a "bring down" which costs half as much as the first survey. 
    This involves updating the plan from the original survey and
    adding the changes.   

I've never seen the metal rods mentioned in .19, but it sounds
like they could be rather easily removed. We're having a plot 
surveyed before a fence is put up and are worried that a neighbor
(the reason for the fence) will pull up or move the markers.

My parents had their property surveyed in the 60's and the surveyor
used granite markers which were embedded three feet underground. I
realize that nothing is permanent, but it would take a lot of time
and effort to remove one of these.

Does anyone know if granite boundary markers are still available and
if so how much they cost?  Are there other alternatives?

	Paul

    Our development was just surveyed.  The granite markers were 4 feet
    long (below the frost line) and cost around $400 each to install. They
    are only in place at major points along the line (end of street, end of
    major arcs in the cul-de-sac, etc).  The surveyors use these as a
    starting point.   I know I've had survey pins removed, but once
    surveyed, there can be no argument about the boundary. I suppose the
    other party can always retain their own surveyer, at which time the two
    surveyors have it out. 

    
    
      If you sledge hammer in a metal pin its pretty tough to get out.
    Besides that its illegal to pull up the stakes on someone elses
    property.
    
    
    BAL
    
    ps: who just went through a land dispute and WON.

    
      We have 4"x4" concrete formed markers that are about 12" long
    for the boundry designations installed by the surveyor.  I imagine
    you could also make some.  Once the lot is surveyed and properly
    recorded I don't think it would matter too much if one were missing.
    We had some trees taken out and when they pulled the stump, they
    got a marker, we just dropped it in the general vicinity within
    half a foot in concurrence with the neighbor because it is still
    legally recorded.
    
               Mark

    
<    you could also make some.  Once the lot is surveyed and properly
<    recorded I don't think it would matter too much if one were missing.
<    We had some trees taken out and when they pulled the stump, they
<    got a marker, we just dropped it in the general vicinity within
<    half a foot in concurrence with the neighbor because it is still
<    legally recorded.
    
 	It is better for one to be missing then to have one that has been 
	replaced in the wrong position.  If it is missing the surveyor knows,
	but if it is miss placed he could mistakenly use it as a benchmark.  
	You may not realize that some markers have more significance then other,
	and may be used as a benchmark for other property.  Usually, the more 
	perminant the marker is the more importance it has.  If my memory 
	is correct, to replace a marker will require three points and two 
	lines, but to determine if a marker is misplaced requires 4 points and 
	4 lines. 

Re: .19
	The metal pins are 5 ft rebar driven 4+ ft into the ground.  I would
	like to see you pull them out.  If you want to read something funny 
	read your town charter sometime.   They use to use big piles of rock.   

    
    
    I have searched quite a bit, if there are already  notes on this
please direct me to them.
    
    I wanted to check my property boundries give or take a few inches. I
    look on the deed and see where all the information is kept, book page
    and title. If I go and look at this information, see the legnth,
    direction and degree, what might I need to do a minor self survey?
    Rent some degree reading transit? A 100 foot tape?
    
    My problem lies in the fence my neighbor put up some time ago. Here
    goes....the old property line routine..
    
    He claimes it is 1.5 feet onto his property. I looked at the markers
    installed by the surveyers(sp)(the ones they used) and it looks to me
    like the fence is either right on the line or a bit on my prop. It all
    came about when I asked if I could hook onto his fence with one of my
    own, of the exact type, going over to the corner of my house. These are
    6' privacy fences so I can be snobby in my back yard, and he has said
    he put the fence 1.5 feet onto his property so he could walk around it
    and check it out once in a while. I mow it all and regularly take care
    of it and really didn't expect this kinda responce. I just want to be
    prepared. Is it time to pay the 400-800$ quoted for the survey? buy a
    copy of the survey done by the other company if I can find out whom did
    it and when? any comments/help appreciated as usual. All I really want
    to do is confirm within a few inches the bearings on his fence/his
    line/my line.
    
    chuck
    pisces::partain
    237-2139

    
    I would first run a line on the existing survey markers just to
    be sure of things.  Why bother having your own survey done if he's
    already done one?

    If your goal is to abut his fence with yours and you find that
    his fence is on the property line (or on your side), why don't you
    just put the fence post right up against his and let him deal with
    the issue.                                               
                                                             
    I would respect his wishes to not attach the fence but you have
    a right to put up a fence on your property and you don't have to
    leave a gap unless his fence is in fact where he says it is.
                                                             
    You might also want to check the town bylaws regarding where you
    can legally place your fence.  I think you can place it on the property
    line.

    If you can indeed find the corners, you ought to be able to find
    out within a few inches where the fence is relative to the line.
    If you can find a friend who has a crosshair rifle scope, you might
    be able to use that by setting it on top of a camera tripod set
    up above one corner, and sighting on a pole set up at the next coner.
    Once you get that sighted correctly, have a friend move a pole into
    your sightline where the fence is, and see where that pole crosses
    your sightline.  Then measure from there to the fence.
    Or you could rent a transit for a day.
    Or you could probably just use a stick about 2' long with a nail
    in each end to sight across!
    And there's always trigonometry and/or the Pythagorean theorem, if
    you can find only one of the corner posts on the fenceline boundary
    but can find both ends of an adjacent line and know the angle.
    
    However, even though you convince yourself where the line is, you
    may have to hire a professional surveyor to convince your neighbor.

>    I wanted to check my property boundries give or take a few inches. I
>    look on the deed and see where all the information is kept, book page
>    and title. If I go and look at this information, see the legnth,
>    direction and degree, what might I need to do a minor self survey?

I don't know where you are, but assuming your registry is like the ones 
in New England, if you go there and check the specific book and page 
number, what you'll find is a copy of your deed.  Since you already have 
the deed, it's not worth the trip.

Your deed should have some language on it like "Starting at a point in 
the south corner marked by stick and stones, proceeding west 22 rods, 
thence north 18 rods, thence east 20 rods, thence returning to the south 
corner, comprising x.x acres more or less."  That is the legal 
description of your land.  Not much help.  Many of them reference things 
that have been gone for decades.  One we held said, "Starting at the 
large oak..." which was fine, but the place was now a gravel pit.

>    He claimes it is 1.5 feet onto his property. I looked at the markers
>    installed by the surveyers(sp)(the ones they used) and it looks to me
>    like the fence is either right on the line or a bit on my prop. 

The problem is that you don't know what the surveyors marked.  They 
might have put in corner markers, but it's just as likely that the shot 
the line that the fence was supposed to be on.  If you can find out who 
they were you could call and ask.  They probably won't tell you, but you 
could try.

Look on your deed and see if they mention any landmarks.  If they do, go 
see if they still exist, and measure off the distance.  I don't think 
you can hope for inches of accuracy, but if your lot is not too large, 
you should be able to get within 1.5 feet.  If your suspicion is aroused 
then you might want to think about getting a surveyor.  You'll need one 
anyway if you're putting up a fence, right?
						>>>==>PStJTT

    re: .3
    
    Even in New England, not every deed has the information on it. 
    Sometimes they'll just say "The property called Lot #N, as indicated
    on a survey done by So-And-So Surveyors, and recorded at Registry
    X, Book B, Page P."  In other words, you may still need to go to
    the town hall or the registry in order to chase the back pointers
    to previous deeds for the property.
    
       Gary

    
    	I have a kind of related question. Has anyone ever done a U-DO-IT
    title search. I'm having a little trouble finding out who actualy
    if anyone holds the drainage easement I have on my property. The
    town says it's the developer because the road is not a town road
    yet the developer says it's the town and no-one has any paperwork
    or is willing to show it to me which calls out the easement. My
    deed has only one line on it which says something to effect of any
    rights or easements as applicable. I have a plot plan which show
    the easement but no where can I find a description or to whom the
    easement is granted.
    	After talking to to building inspector he says I'd have to get
    a lawyer to reaserch all the back deeds to find the easement same
    thing with the developer. I don't want to spend the bucks on a lawyer
    just to have him go down to the registry and dig through some books
    when I can do the same thing for a lot less.
    	So my question is has anyone ever done there own title check
    in Mass. (Registry of Deeds in Cambridge). What info do I need to
    start and what do I ask for?
    
    		Thanks...
    				...Dave
     

    
    
    In answer to the last question, it is noted on the engineering drawings
    done at the beginning of the development/zoning where all the easements
    are and whom they are deeded to. I deal with some of the guys in
    waltham, ma. and they have all the drawings and you can get copies of
    all this stuff for a price. you are paying someomne else to do all the
    work you can do yourself...if you know where to look in the first
    place!
    
    Also in answer to a question asked about the origional note, I live in
    the big town of MAYNARD, Ma.!
    
    
    chuck

    A title search is easy to do.
    I did my own house before I bought it.
    I even surpised the lawyer when she told about a covenant made in
    1899. I corrected her.
    All you have to do is first find out where your deed is recorded.
    I assume that your property is in Middlesex county (south). Lowell
    has the records for northern Middlesex county.
    Now you're at the proper registry. Next, you need to know the year
    that your house was bought by you. Go to the Grantees book for the
    year that you bought the house (there's probably a few for that
    year A thru E, F thru G, know what I mean?). Look up your name and
    you'll find the Grantor's name and a reference to where the deed
    is recorded (e.g. Book 100, page 100). Then you know who owned the
    house before you, just keep walking back. Hope this helps. If you
    can read English you shouldn't have any problem understanding what's
    going on
    

    
    	RE .7 thanks...
    	
    	One other nitch I forgot to mention I have wats called registered
    land which in and of it self is no problem but supposidly makes
    doing searches a bit more complicated because the records are kept
    differently, something about having to go to land court. 
    	Anyways my deed (I should say copy of deed as it's been 3 years
    and original still hasn't come back from land court) does have plans
    and books called out in it so I should be able to find a starting
    point. 
    	Do they care if your doing your own reserch? Will I have to
    look for the books myself as in a library or do they have some one
    to help?
    
    			Thanks again...
    
    					...Dave
    

	Back to the original question:

	If you know anyone who works at a votech school or engineering school
	which has a civil eng/construction curriculuim, they may be able to 
	help.  They can not do a legal survey, but most students are willing 
	to practice.

	You should also check in your local zoning bylaws and with the 
	building inspector to see what your local ordinances say.  A well 
	written bylaw should state the maximum and minimum distance a common
	fench must be from the property line, maximum height and minimum 
	distance from the street.  Also a minimum separation for parallel 
	fences.  If the fence is a common fence you can build your fence 
	upto his eventhough it is on his property.  The downside is that you 
	are also liable for 50% of the maintanence of the common fence.  A well
	written bylaw would have also required a building permit and adjacent 
	owners permission.  Your mileage may vary.

	Title Search Question:

	Title searches are easy except in MA.  All modern court records carry 
	a record number.  Your deed will back reference the previous deed and
	if you are lucky the original plot plan and the first appearence of 
	any easements.  If you have not received your deed yet you should be 
	able to find some helpful information on your tax bill or P&S.
	Once you know who the original grantee is you have completed half the
	battle.  Drainage and conservation easements are typically 
	transferred to the towns when(if?) the roads are accepted by the town.
	Unfortunately, this is not a clear cut process.  The only way to 
	find out the status is to dig through Town Meeting, planning board and 
	selectmen minutes to determine terms and conditions.  The selectmen and 
	town counsel should be able to tell you the "official" town position.
	
	My town is going through this(trying to figure out if the town has 
	actually taken ownership of some roads) right now with a subdivision.

	Brian

    Re .0
    
    	 If your only concerned with whose property the fence is on,
    	forget the civil engineer! You'll probably waste your $$$.
    	My neighbor and I have had our lots surveyed a grand total of
    	4 times in the past 5 years (mostly due to re-financings). Our 
    	common boundries vary by 10' depending on which plan you believe!
    	We have more or less just drawn a line down the middle of the
    	discrepancy and left it at that. I really don't care whose lot
    	the fence is on, as long as it stays there. 
    
    
    	 If your neighbor's only concern is his ability to access the
    	back part of "his" fence, offer to put up a 6' gate at the 
    	common corner. It would be a heck of a lot cheaper than paying 
    	an engineer.
    

    	Glenn

    If you are still at the stage of being friendly and neighborly about 
this whole thing, and it sounds that way so far, then check with your town 
and see if they still appoint a fence viewer. This title dates back to 
antiquity in New England when the fence viewer was responsible for 
determining "which" big oak or which pile of sticks marked the proper 
boundaries of two lots. Generally they have some experiance in simple 
checking from such points as surveyor stakes, others may be retired 
surveyors but don't count on it. Your building inspector can tell you if 
the town has a viewer and if they do anything like that. He/she can also 
tell you about the local zoning laws regarding fences on boundaries and 
heights. State law in Mass limits a fence to 6' in height.

    Vic H

    While we're on the subject, what's the easiest way to get a rough
    idea of the property line?
    
    We're in a wooded area with a triangular lot.  One of the neighboring
    lots isn't even built-up yet.  So somewhere in the woods there are
    trees that are ours, and trees that aren't.  We aren't planning
    on getting anywhere close to the property lines, and I can't imagine
    the neighbors wanting to do that either, but still, it's nice to
    have at least a vague idea of where our property ends.
    
    How trustworthy is the written tape survery done for the mortgage?
    Ours doesn't seem to have any compass headings on it, other than the
    indication of North.  To use it, we'd have to use a protractor to
    measure the angles, and then put some faith into my $10 orienteering
    compass. I'd be happy if that could get me accurate to within 10 feet.
    The other alternative would be to refer to the subdivision plan, and
    start measuring several hundred feet from the nearest intersection with
    my 50 foot tape measure -- sounds silly to me. 
    
    Would it be worth it for us to contact the company that did the
    tape survey, and ask them to send a crew out to walk the boundaries
    with us?  How much would that cost, given that I don't need very
    much accuracy or a written confirmation of the survey?
    
	Gary

    Remember the law of Adverse Posession.
    
    If you make an "open and notorious" claim on land (such as by fencing
    it in, or building on it) and it is not objected to within a period
    of time (21 years, I think), then the land is yours.
    
    So the fence just might become the boundary!
           fred    
    (not a lawyer, but I've been in situations where it mattered.)

    
    re .12
    	
    	 One of the engineering firms that surveyed my property tried
    	to hand me a $500.00 bill for marking 3 of the 4 corners on
	my 11k sq/ft lot. I have no idea why they only marked 3 corners
    	(maybe they didn't have an extra 5 minutes for the job.) This on 
    	top of $650.00 to do a plot plan that was to include the corner 
    	markers.
    	
    	 My view of this note is don't bother with an engineer unless
    	you absolutely have to, they are; all expensive, mostly slow,
    	and more often than not, inaccurate.

    
    	Glenn

    re .13
    
    	The story I've heard is that this may have been true 50 years
    ago but these days no Judge would go for that.  They go by what
    the deed says, along with past deed history.  Thats why title ins
    is such a good deal.

    Re: .16
    
> re: do it yourself title search
> At last check, only registered title companies can use the Worcester County 
> Registry, and they charge a lot for not much depth of research.

    That's unbelievable, although MA does so many other unbelievable
    things, it might still be true.
    
    The registry deals with public documents, which in most parts of
    the country implies they must be open to public inspection.  Anyone
    should have the right to review their records, during reasonable
    business hours.  
    
    Perhaps they mean that only registered title companies can submit
    items for registration?  That's more sensible, since otherwise the
    registry would have to put tremendous effort into preventing forgeries.
    
       Gary

    Say what?  I was down there last month and looked to my hearts content,
    what Worcester county do you live in?  The court house in Worcester,
    MA allows free public access.  I even registered the cancellation
    of my second mortgage.

     
    
    I called the middlesex registry of deeds monday and talked to a very
    very nice and cooperative person in the registry dept. He found all the
    information I requested off of my deed copy. It was in the mail the
    same day, no charge. This is what I was looking for but didn't know one
    could request it. I know this property was surveyed one time before. I
    shouldn't have to have it done again. I would pay for the copies but
    won't pay for it to be done again unless I get into a court situation
    which shouldn't have to happen if all concerned parties looks over the
    plot plan. I can't wait to get home and look see at the lines.
    
    
    Chuck
    

I just had my land surveyed, and I have a couple of questions (I did a thorough 
search of this conference; 1900 and 2517 came close but really don't address my 
issues, and TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE and MOSAIC::LAWS turned up nothing).

1. One marker installed by the surveyor indicates to my neighbor that his porch 
is on state property, i.e. if you draw a line from a previously-existing marker 
on his land to the new marker on my land, about three feet are cut off the
corner of his porch.  We both knew it was close before the survey, in fact, at
a variance meeting I heard a representative of the state say, "Another coat of
paint would put that porch on our property."  Well, needless to say, my
neighbor is pretty nervous about all this. 

What do I owe my neighbor legally, i.e. since I initiated the survey and
thereby made it more apparent that he's on state land, do the implications of
the situation fall in his lap or mine (or both of ours')?  We are on good
terms, and I would like to do all I can to help him out of his dilemma as long
as it doesn't cost me too much. 

2. The survey shows that my "two-and-one-half acres, more or less" in fact is 
exactly 1.97 acres.  The surveyor said something to the effect that the party 
that initiates the survey always "takes the hit" if there are a lot of 
"more-or-less" statements in the deeds that are concerned.  I'd like to know if
this rings true to anyone. 

Thanks very much,
- craig

 
    Legally you don't owe your neighbor anything. But just to be neighborly
    I'd let him know the results of the survey, then let him worry about
    it. It's his deck that's on state property.
    
    Mike

    The best thing *you* might be able to do for your neighbor is paint the
    flouresent orange markers that the surveyor put in flat black. This
    will help obscure the fact that his deck is illegal unless somebody
    wants to do some serious looking. It is a state and/or federal crime to
    change or remove a legal survey mark but there is no requirement that
    it jump out and bite you.
    
    If the deck was there when he bought the house then your neighbor
    should consult an attorney. He may be able to bring suit against the
    previous owner if the property was misrepresented or built in violation
    of zoning reg's, or he may be able to collect on his title insurance,
    or sue the company that did his survey when he took out the mortgage,
    etc. There is also some potential that he owns the property by virtue
    of the fact that he has been using it without any challenge for a
    certain number of years. 
    
    Above all he should consult an attorney and NOT listen to the advice
    of some one-semester law student two-bit noter like me ...
                                  

    I appreciate the replies... thanks.
    
    - craig
    

    re the land differecial.  I don't know what the "more or less" is
    intended to mean, but the difference between 2.5 and 1.97 is just over
    20%.  So you got 20% less land than you were paying for.  Normally
    people buy houses primarily for the house itself, and the lot size is
    of secondary importance.  If you walked the property and knew the
    visual boundary when you bought the house, then having the survey and
    finding out that the visual boundary represents less actual volume than
    what you thought it was should be of little consequence.  But if in
    fact you feel differently, then you may have a case against the former
    owner. 
   

    Funny how those things work, isn't it.  Every time I have bought a
    house the description of the property size in the real estate listing
    has been bigger than the actual size of the property.  I guess "approx.
    3 acres" is about the same as 2.5 acres.  Apparently the only thing
    that counts is the actual property lines as described in the deed.  So
    if you want to know how many acres you are buying you have to calculate
    the size from the description in the deed.  (Starting at the northwest
    corner where Brown's cow used to sleep all the time, then proceeding
    north westerly to where the apple tree used to be...".
    
    Even though it is illegal to move surveyors' markers, it happens all
    the time, both accidentally and on purpose.  My neighbor's kid came
    home one day with a handful of nice long oak stakes with little ribbons 
    around them, real proud of his "find" in the woods.  Another neighbor
    in a different state found out that the developer next door had moved
    his property line about 6 feet onto her property one dark night.  He
    didn't think anyone would notice.
    
    I rented some commercial property once, which realtor said was about
    600 square feet for $15.00 per square foot (per year).  I looked at the
    space, said OK, then later on actually measured it.  It was an odd
    shaped room, but I measured it carefully and it came out to be 410
    square feet.  When I laid this on the realtor he said that rentals are
    measured to the outside of the walls, not the inside.  Even doing it
    that way I came out with only 500 or so sq ft.  He then said that the
    actual square footage was not what was being rented, that rent was
    actually the final monthly rent for the room I saw, regardless of the
    actual size or calculations.  I told him that my rent check was was
    what I was actually going to pay him regardless of the actual amount
    written on the check.
    
    In Maine they have a way of measuring a cord of wood so that 128 cubic
    feet actually comes out to be 100 cubic feet once it is in your yard.
    
    Have you ever measured a 2 x 4 ?
    
    Want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn?

Seems that surveys are quite expensive. I just had an estimate done to mark my 
perimeter so that I could install fencing. The quote was for $1800.

What do I get for $1800? Well since I already have a plot plan on file the 
surveyers come out to the site and locate any existing "monuments". They then
use these as reference points and do the appropriate measurements to tie my lot 
in with adjacent lots and the town street boundaries. With this information 
they go back to the office and draw up a plan that they use to set markers. 
I asked them to mark each corner with metal rods and set a few extra rods along
one border that has about a 450' run. The opposing border already has metal rods
from a survey that my neighbor had done last year.

Sounds like no more than 10 hours work and I am being generous with that 
estimate. Works out to $180 per hour. Is this guy quoting me high or is this
the going rate for a perimeter survey? The survey is going to cost more than 
the fence!

						Bob...

    As mentioned before, a new survey company has to cover itself if
    it makes mistakes so its prices are very high.  If you can find
    out who did the survey when you bought the house, they will do the
    survey for much less because they are just confirming what they
    already did and you have already payed for mistake insurance once.

    Look in the paperwork from the purchase and you should have a plot
    plan and in one corner it will have the survey company name and
    contact information.

    What you pay a surveyer for is so you (or your bank) will have someone
    to sue if you build according to their measurements, then find out
    later that you're on someone elses property.  They have to stand
    behind their work.
    
    But, anyway, $1800 sounds like too much.  Where's the land located?
    

    Re price
    
    I had corners marked and some intermediate wooden posts placed around
    the perimeter of a one-acre lot in southern NH for $900.
    
    pbm
    

    
    Re .30
    
    	Where in southern NH? And who did the survey??
    
    	Thks Don
    

    RE .31
    
    Atkinson, NH.  Local surveyor, taken from the yellow pages.  I called
    three, they were all about the same.
    
    pbm
    

    I am having a lot surveyed, partially staked (just enought to locate
    my house), a topography done showing nearby wetlands, the wetlands
    marked and I am also getting a sewer and water clearance plan done
    for about 1,100 to 1,200 dollars.
    He's charging me 90 dollars an hour. 
    
    The land is 29,000 square feet in Leominster MA. The surveyor certified
    the land about a year ago for approval to subdivide it. So he is
    familiar with the property, he gave me more useful information
    than the DPW did.
     
      Domenic
    
    BTW, I'll let you know you happened when it's over

    
     Maybe someone here has had some experience with this,  I did a search
    and looked at the entries related to surveying,  but didn't come up
    with a cold, hard answer to this question.
    
     What recourse does someone have if a contractor on a neighboring piece
    of land buries your survey markers during the course of his
    construction?
    
     What laws have been broken?  What do I have to do? Is suing him in
    court the only way?  He is COMPLETELY uncooperative, extrodinarily
    unprofessional and very childish.  Is there a contractors assocation,
    (such as the bar assoc. for lawyers) that he could be reported to?
    
     Don't suggest talking, letters, etc.,  he's laughed off all that sort
    of civilized communication.  The city we are in is not interested in
    helping at all. We've allready spoken with the building inspector who
    is the one to issue construction permits.  This is of course, MASS. by
    the way.
    
     Anybody got any advice?  Help!
    
                            thanx, Denise

    My husband is working on a survey crew, so this is second hand.
    
    If he buries the markers with loam, fill, whatever, but does not move
    them, it's not really a problem.  It happens all the time.  The next
    survey crew that needs to use that marker will dig holes in his lawn
    until they find the bound.  Won't that make you smile!  It usually make
    the survey crews smile, too.
    
    The last time my husband's crew had to dig a hole in the lawn, the
    owner was upset.  The crew agreed to fill the hole back in when they
    were done, which they did.  They also painted a large orange arrow on
    the sidewalk pointing to the location of the marker for future
    reference.
    
    You could hire someone to reset the bound at the new ground level, but
    it doesn't seem to be worth the money.  I'll ask about this specific
    case tonight and get back to you tomorrow.
    
    If they dig it up and dispose of it, that's a whole 'nuther story.
    
    Elaine

As indicated in .1, burying the markers doesn't invalidate them.  If it really
bothers you, wait for the construction to be over, buy yourself a garden
stake, spray paint it white or bright yellow or bright red (I'm not sure whether
orange is reserved to surveyors), and stick in the ground on your property,
at the approximate point of the markers.

I'd be more concerned about the tresspassing on your property, and the
changing of grades at the property line.  Is the contractor creating a 
drainage problem for you?  Is he damaging your landscaping?  Those seem
like more serious problems.

   Gary

    
    Opening an old note...
    
    Recently bought a house in Boxborough.  Houses are being built on
    either side of ours.  Well, the guy next to us wants to hook his
    electrical service into the pole which is positioned in front of my
    property.  He does have a pole in front of his property but does not
    want to have to go the more difficult route.
    
    Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone knows where ones property ends?  ie/ is
    it the road?  Or, is it somewhere near the road;...and the utility
    companies have an easment to a certain part of the land(between the
    pole and the road)....  
    
    Thank you.
    
    	-John

Usually the roadway is a certain width with the road going approximately down
the middle.  This can vary a lot, especially in older areas where the original
surveys may have been inaccurate.  Usually, but not always, the utility lines
going down the street are in the roadway and aren't on your land.

There is no definite way to tell where your land starts without a survey, but
look at where you think the corners of your lot is, you may find an iron
pipe or granite or concrete monument indicating the lot corner.

If you have the remains of an old stone wall in front, the actual line
is probably the wall or very near it.

I believe the power company would need your permission if a powerline from a
pole to a neighbor's house crosses your land.

-Mike

It also may depend if he just wants electricity, or other utilities, too, like
phone and cable.  While our new installation was being planned, we were told
that Mass Electric would have no problem running wire across the neighbor's
land, but New England Telephone would not do it, period.  Not sure about cable
since we're anti-american antenna users.

It turned out we didn't cross the neighbor's land at all, but the person should
find out.

Elaine

    
    I was told by the utility company that telephone poles mark the edge
    of the road,but the town owns 10 feet from the pole in. I assume for
    drains and water pipes. So if you measure 10 feet from the pole that
    would be your starting point.
    
                                                  Dan

That may be a good general rule, but it isn't true in all cases.
A typical road right-of-way is 40'.  If the poles are near the edge
of the road, and it is 20' from one edge of the road to the other,
then the town still may not own 10' in from the poles -- it depends
whether the road is in the middle of the right-of-way!  I'm told that
it's usually near the middle, but...

Try going to your town's real estate tax office and asking to look at
the property maps.  It should show how wide your street's right-of-way
is, and may show some useful landmarks for figuring out where the edges
of the right-of-way lie.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    

    It might be different for Mass, but here in NH the tax office maps
    don't show any topographical detail.  We went to the land deed registry
    where they had a set of detail map on microfiche showing the survey
    triangulation points and measured boundary lines.  Cost a dollar for a
    photocopy and showed where the services were in relation to our lot.

    We did this because the house next to ours was sold a few days after we
    had bought our place and the real estate agent had "sold" a strip of
    our lot with it by walking a natural boundary instead of the mapped
    boundary.  With the registry map it was easy to establish the correct
    boundary line.

    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    Another property line question.  If the truck of a tree and most
    of its branches are on your property, but there is a branch
    hanging over into the adjoining property, who owns the tree?
    
    And what if a large tree is smack in the middle of the property
    line.  Meaning on side of the trunk in on one persons property
    and the other side of the truck is on the other persons property?

    
    
     > If the truck of a tree and most of its branches are on your
     > property, but there is a branch hanging over into the adjoining
     > property, who owns the tree?
    
    
     heard this on a legal radio call in show once. The lawyer/host said
    that the tree is owned by the person whose yard the trunk is in. Any
    branches that extend in the neighbors yard are the property of that
    neighbor. The neighbor can cut these, as they affect his property BUT,
    he's liable for any damage to the tree which is caused by this action.
    Local laws may alter this, so you may want to check 1st before you
    fire up the ole chainsaw. 
    
    
     Bob

	I need to stake out the ground for a 20X20 structure. I saw a program on
TV called Home Time where they had some method called the 3,5,6 approach or 
something like that. They used the method to get a perfect 90 degree angle on 
there string. Something like measure out 3 feet this way then 5 feet this way 
and meet at 6 feet ?????

	Anyone have the correct instructions for doing this or another idea on
how to make sure a box is square ?


	Thanks,
	-Steve-

Use the Pythagoreum Theorum.  The square of the hypotenuse in a right triangle
is equal to the sum of the squares of the sides.

Or, you can simply use the 3-4-5 approach.  You can have a right triangle that
has the hypotenuse of 5 with one side of 3 and the other of 4; 3sq+4sq=5sq.  
The easiest way is to measure 4 feet down one side and make a mark.  Then 
measure 3 feet down the other side and make a mark.  Then adjust the angle
between the two sides so that the distance across between mark1 and mark2 
is 5 feet.

Dave

    RE: .0
    
    I think that they are refering to a 3/4/5 triangle. I.E. if the base is 
    4 units and the height is 3 units and the hypotenuse is 5 units, then
    it is a triangle with a 90 degree between the base and the vertical.
    
    I.E. C squared = A squared plus B squared.
    
    Note: the Units can be anything you want....
    
    Marc H.

> TV called Home Time where they had some method called the 3,5,6 approach or 
>something like that. They used the method to get a perfect 90 degree angle on 

It's 3-4-5 and multiples of (6-8-10, 9-12-15, etc). What your doing is 
measure the sides of a right tri-angle. 3-4-5 just happens to be an 
easily remembered set of sides.

BUT, since your "structure" is a square, another way for you to square 
it up is to measure the two diaganols and make them equal!

Charly

    
               A ___________________________ B
                 |                         |    In any rectangle, the 
                 |                         |    distance from "A" to
                 |                         |    "D" should equal the
                 |                         |    distance from "C" to
                 |                         |    "B" if the angles are
                 |                         |    at 90 degrees...
                 |                         |
                 |                         |    Edd
                 |                         |
               C |_________________________| D
                 

    
    
    The other important note is that everything must be measured
    in the same plane, which is very difficult over uneven ground.
    (Especially if you have to align the structure with anything else.)
    
    If so, you have to start with a level baseline at 90deg to
    the other structure FIRST.  The easy way is to set
    up H-shaped batter boards about 23' away from the baseline.
    then run a level builders cord between the reference
    structure and the new structure.  Then create a right
    angle between the reference structure & the baseline.
    
    Stake out from the baseline, using building string to
    keep your "square" perfectly level.   If this is for a building,
    I'd recommend setting up batter boards at each corner for
    continual reference as you are building.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
    
    

    
    Dont make it so difficult.  Slap 4 pins in the ground.
    measure out your sides.  (ex 30x30)  Then pull the string
    tight between the diagnal corners.  If their equal, your
    home free.  if not, move one set of pins parllel to the
    other until you get where you want.
    
    Happy building!
    JD

    Does anyone have any updated prices for having a lot surveyed and
    staked?

       I have a question about Plot Plans.  Do they usually just show
    the house and the perimeter of the land ?  The Plot Plan taken when
    I purchased my home had just what I stated, but now, during
    refinancing, the surveyors decided to draw the drive-way, partially, to
    claim it's on my neighbors lot.  The funny thing (or sad, depending on
    your point of view) is that the same surveyors that did the original 
    plan did this one too !  I thought refinancing would be easier than
    buying...
    
                                                                 -Jeff
    
    

    
    I'd have him do it again, then if it still show's that
    your neighbor has your drive way.... sick'um.... Do you have
    a good lawyer???
    
    JD

    RE:-1
    
      The Survey crew did come back again and had metal detectors, looking 
    for a buried marker by the driveway, and found nothing...but still
    wouldn't back down on their decision.  They work for the attorneys who,
    in turn, are handling the refinancing for the Digital Credit Union.
      As far as lawyers are concerned, to me it's just a money pit.  I have
    an independent surveyor coming out today, since the Credit Union said
    they would accept another plot plan.
    
                                                                -Jeff