Conference 7.286::home_work

       I put molding around mine and stained it to match the other
    woodwork. It looks pretty good.                                
                                                                   
                                                TP
    

    I put casing molding around mine and painted the molding and the
    plywood white. I blends in fine with the textured ceilings.
    
    Make sure you insulate the top to stop the heat lose. I used and
    old hollow core interior door. I mounted it over the opening in
    the attic using the hinges so that I can swing it open. I stapled
    insulation to the top and used foam weather stripping where the
    door meeting the attic floor. It's easy to use and makes a nice
    tight seal.
    
    Charly

    Put the casing around the edges (match the door casing). Stain and
    varnish the entire thing, sanding the plywood lightly between coats.
    If you want to break up the expanse of plywood a little, try a
    rectangle of some thin molding, positioned about 1/6th of the plywood
    width (or length) from each edge.

    If you want to call attention to it and make it stand out 
    then STAIN it.
    
    If you want to hide it and make it less noticeable then PAINT it.

    Charly

In our house we have a 3X3 attic enterence at the top of our stairs.  I plan to
put in a pull-down staircase SOMEDAY, but first I have this addition to build...

Anyhow, what the builder did is pretty impressive.  Although this hatch is
simply plywood, he put some real nice molding on the panel itself and painted it
white.  Now it sort of looks like a cabinet door rather than the piece of 
plywood it is.  This is EXACTLY what I intend to do when I put in my stairs...


			+---------------+
			|		|
			|  +---------+  |
			|  |         |  |
			|  |         |  |
			|  |         |  |
			|  +---------+  |
			|		|
			+---------------+

The trick it to use real nice molding.  Unfortunately I can't replicate it
here, but I'll bet it cost a couple of buck a foot.

-mark

    I like the molding idea!. Guess I'll go out and start figuring out
    what molding to use. 
    
    Thanks for the advice!
    

    When installing one of those suckers, I would assume that it's better
    to put it in with the long dimension parallel to the ceiling joists?
    Or is it not much of a problem, so long as you "do the right things"
    with respect to tying together the cut joists?
    
    Dick
    

    re .7:
    
    Nice thought, but usually unpractical. Unless the hallway is immensely
    wide, you usually have to orient the attic stairway so that it unfolds
    down the hall, instead of across it (unless, of course, you cleverly
    place an emtpy closet so that the stair can unfold into it).
    Since most hallways are oriented lengthwise, and ceiling joists
    are oriented crosswise, you usually have to place the stair
    across the joists (cutting two) rather than with them (cutting one).

	So this is what it should look like, right?
	Should the cross members be doubled, like a window or door header?
	Should any special precaution be taken (temporary support) before
	cutting the joists?

	-----------------------------------


	-----------------------------------  <== joists
	          ||         ||
	          ||         || <== new cross member
	----------||xxxxxxxxx||------------
	          ||         ||
	          ||         ||		     x = length of joist to cut
	----------||xxxxxxxxx||------------
	          ||         ||
	          ||         ||
	-----------------------------------


	-----------------------------------

    If it's a hall way, you probably won't need any temporary supports
    since you have a wall on either side only 3 feet apart, the ceiling
    joists are pretty well supported.
    
    Charly

    
    
    	I'm sure a few of You DIYers must have installed attic stairs
    before.  Can any of You give me any "step-by-step" instructions
    or advice/experiences?  I am tired of trying to crawl through a
    little hole in the top of the closet.
    
    	Thanx in advance,
    
    			-KG-
    

I believe the recommended way is to install them in the direction of the floor
joists.  WHen I installed mine I couldn't and had to remove 3 sections.  In 
either case, be sure to put in some headers (are that what they're called) at 
the ends of the joists and fasten securely.



		------------------------------------------
			 ||             	||
		---------||			||--------
			 ||             	||
		------------------------------------------

				OR

		-----------------------------------
			    ||      ||
		------------||      ||-------------
			    ||      ||
		------------||      ||-------------
			    ||      ||
		------------||      ||-------------
			    ||      ||
		------------||      ||-------------
			    ||      ||
		-----------------------------------

The first case is much stronger since you're only cutting a single (or possibly 
2) joists.

I remember being intimidated by the amount of cutting I had to do and by the
fact that you can't really get a circular saw in close - you really need 
something like a reciprocating saw.  SO - I used my chain saw!!!  Worked like a
champ.

-mark

    Yikes, the latter framing diagram in the previous reply is carrying
    the end load of a whole pile of joists.  A simple double membered
    beam of the same size wood (2x6 or 2x8) as the existing rafters
    is not going to carry the load.
    
    The other problem is that in a conventionally framed house, the
    ceiling joists (the attic floor) not only carry the load of whatever's
    in the attic, but they also keep the outside walls from pulling
    outward under a heavy roof (snow) load.  As such, they are placed
    in tension as the roof load increases - face nailing them through
    the double carrying joist as show provides almost no strength in
    tension (the nails will just pull out).
    
    Cutting that many joists is major structural surgery.  At the very
    least you need to add or strengthen collar ties to the roof rafters
    to compensate for the weakening of the roof triangle.

>    Yikes, the latter framing diagram in the previous reply is carrying
>    the end load of a whole pile of joists.  A simple double membered
>    beam of the same size wood (2x6 or 2x8) as the existing rafters
>    is not going to carry the load.

Well, not really, considering that you're always going to install the stairs 
running down the hallway, and the only reason you would cut all those joists
is if each of them is supported by the hallway walls on each side, no more 
than a foot away.  So that part of the problem is no problem at all.

You do need to consider the tension aspect, though.  In most cases I wouldn't 
worry about it, since you only need to cut three joists to get a 4' span.  I've 
seen numerous houses with the attic stairs installed that way, and there's 
nothing special done about bracing.  If you're really worried about it, put a 
lag bolt in the end of each joist instead of nails.

Paul

P.S.  For more discussion on this subject, see note 894

re: .-1, .-2

you're both right.  in fact, my diagram probably exagerated the number of joists
I had to cut.

and yes, Paul is right about being in a hall.  I had forgotten to mention that.
Although I had to cut 3 joists, the end was still supported by the partition in
the hall below.  Had there been no partition, this would indeed have been a 
no-no.

-mark

     Where do you purchase the stairs?  Grossmans sells three
    kinds....which brand name would you recommend?
    

    
    Ok, here's a weird installation:
    
    	I want to add the attic stairs, only I already have the hallway
    space taken by the whole-house fan, therefore I need to put the
    stairs into the bathroom ceiling.  What about the joists now, am
    I going to cause my house to fall apart?  Should I beef up the ones
    that are a the ends of the stairs?  (See psuedo scaled diagram)
    
     wall                wall     
    --||-----+------+-----||----+------+-------
    --||-----| Fan  |-----||----|      |-------
    --||-----+------+-----||----|      |-------
    ----------------------------|      |-------
    ----------------------------|      |-------
    ----------------------------+------+-------
    
    ?????
    
    
    

    Re: 894.2 - Insulating a set of Attic stairs
    
    I have an existing set of fold away attic stairs in the second floor
    hallway. Since the seal to the hallway ceiling is poor and last year
    there was siginifcant heat loss to the attic, I built a 10" high box
    round the opening (since the stairs in the folded position stick above
    the attic floor), and capped it with a 1/2" plywood 'door'. I added a
    foam seal to the the plywood door to box joint to lower air
    infiltration. 
    
    So far so good, but now I would like to insulate attic side of the box
    and 'door'. Since we store the deck furniture and several other weather
    resistant items up there, I would like to avoid fiberglass for
    durability reasons and to prevent getting fiberglass fibers over
    the items as I move them up and down from the attic.
    
    I have looked at using a sheet foam insulation like styrofoam or
    polyisocynurate, but the fire warnings on such products have me
    somewhat detered. The question I have;
    
    a. Would fire codes allow me to use a sheet foam insulation material
       on the outside of attic stairway box ?  Any fire reaching the
       attic/roof would find plenty of combustibles in the ceiling and
       roof joists.
    
    b. Anybody have a better idea of a material to use other than sheet
       foam insulation, or fiberglass batts ?
    
    /jim
          

    
    	How about doing as the rigid insulation instructions suggest;
    which is to cover the insulation with 1/2 sheetrock or plywood?
    This way your kind of making a home-made insulated door.
    
    	Plywood/Insulation/plywood. How thick an insulation you use
    depends on how much R value you want and how much space you have.
    
    		Just a thought....
    
    				...Dave
    

<    b. Anybody have a better idea of a material to use other than sheet
<       foam insulation, or fiberglass batts ?
    
 	Owens-Corning made sheet fiberglass.  It came in foil sided sheets 
	similar to p*i*c.  The insulating value was somewhere between p*i*c
	and fiberglass bates.  The thinner sheets where used for making 
	fiberglass plenums for FHA and the thicker sheets were used for 
	insulation/sheathing.  The advantage a was that it could be used in 
	place of plywood for siding.  Now there is fiber reinforced p*i*c
	(KoppeR?) that can also be used without sheathing.  	

	I have not seen it in few years.  You may want to call Owens-Coring.
	They have an 800 number that I don't have with me.  Moore's in Ayer,
	I think, was the last place I saw it.

	I like working with the fiberglass sheets better, because they don't
	dent and tear as easily.  Also there is no fire danger.

	Brian

    Does anyone have any suggestions on where I might find either:
    a. attic stair which can be operated from above as well as below?  
    b. ladder for loft living spaces
    
    I own a three family and I live in the third floor apartment.  I am
    going to "finish" the attic space enough so that I can move my desk, my
    son's train set, storage, etc. up into the space.  The problem that I
    face is that the ONLY and I mean ONLY access to this attic space is up
    through the ceiling of a 3' by 5' hallway in the apartment.  There just
    isn't enough space anywhere for conventional stairs of any sort, even
    spiral.  So I'm treating access to the attic like access to a loft.  I
    can install some folding stairs as long as they can be deployed and
    retracted from above as well as below.  Alternatively, I can simply
    install a permanent ladder on the wall leading up into the attic.
    
    Any pointers to suppliers will be appreciated.
    
    Craig
    

We used a permanent ladder for access to a loft in the attic of my
parents house.  We had no problems with it.

Dave

    You might consider using a normal hardware-store variety retractable stair
    and replacing the springs (maybe just 1) with a rope, counterweight, and 
    pully to the attic ceiling (depending on how good looking you want it 
    to be.)
    
    This way you could use it from above or below.  Shouldn't cost too much
    for the conversion.  (rope + pully + lead weight < $10 )
    
    Steve............who has seen it done succesfully

    Brosco sells 3 grades of folding stairways; you ought to be able
    to take a look at their catalog at any decent lumberyard (assuming
    you are in the New England area; I'm sure there are equivalents
    in other parts of the country).  Perhaps one of them would would,
    although I'm not sure about operating it from above.  
    
    I've also seen a sliding stairway used in an old house; basically,
    itwas a ladder with wide rungs so they were steps, and the whole thing
    slid at about a 45 degre angle in a couple of grooves in the sides of 
    the opening in the floor, helped along by a rope, pulley, and
    counterweight.  For this setup, you'd need enough room above in the
    loft for the whole ladder to retract into.

    How about a circular stair?

There are manufacturers that market retractable attic stairs 
made from aluminium. The operate similar to an extension
ladder. 

If I had known these were available when I put in my attic
stairs I wouldn't have gotten the wooden folding type.

    There really is no room for a circular stair.  This apartment is truely
    tight for space.  It is like a rectangle that is cut into four equal
    rectangles for rooms.
    
    I'm predisposed to the permanent ladder idea since there is enough room
    in the little connecting hall for a bookcase.  I could simply remove
    the bookcase and install the ladder.
    
    Do hardware stores sell just plain old straight ladders?  A design that
    really attracts me is the type of design for a ladder that lets you get
    into and out of a swimming pool.  If I could find something like that
    that wasn't chrome and was long enough, I'd buy it in a minute.
    
    Craig

RE:                        -< Like a Swimming Pool Ladder >-

You might try a ladder for a class A motorhome....the tall ones.

    
    I've seen a "stair" (at least in literature) that's designed for
    use in a very cramped space, therefore at a very sharp angle.
    Instead of one set of treads, it has two, as below
    
                                      f
                          |       |-------|
                          |   e   |       |
                          |-------|       |
                          |       |   d   |
                          |       |-------|
                          |   c   |       |
                          |-------|       |
                          |       |   b   |
                          |       |-------|
                          |   a   |       |
                          |-------|       |
                          |       |       |
    
    Climbing up, your left foot goes on A, right on B, etc. The
    vertical distance between a and b is that of a normal tread, but the
    greater distance between A and C allows the stair to be constructed
    at a sharper angle while providing the clearance to climb and
    descend more or less normally.
    
    This looks like an interesting DIY project, assuming you can get access
    to some specs. Anyone else got a reference?
    

RE: .05

That was probably the version made by Roto.  They are known for their skylights,
but they also make this very well made sliding aluminum attic ladder.  It is
rather expensive, I remember something like $300.  Rivco (Nashua, NH and other
cities in MA) carries Roto.

   Greg

I knew someone once who had a fixed attic stair hidden behind a cupboard
door.  That avoids the aesthetic problem of an aluminum ladder in a hallway.
I've also seen pictures of built-in ladders made of dowels stuck through 
a pair of 2x4 (or so) uprights.  It didn't look so out of place as I'd
think an aluminum ladder would.  Of course, that was in a bathroom, and
they were used as towel racks when not in use as a ladder.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

The ladder we had for the loft was home made, 2x4s with 2" dowels I think.

Dave

================================================================================
Note 1666.941     The offical Home_work 'For Sale/Wanted' Note        941 of 941
SALEM::LEVESQUE_T "Oh, yeah! The boy can PLAY!!"     10 lines  12-FEB-1992 12:31
                   -< any tips on insul. drop-down stairs? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Does anyone know of a kit or plans to insulate a set of drop-down
    stairs from the attic side.  I've considered a few alternatives myself,
    but would be interested in hearing some other ideas.  I'm trying to cut
    down on heat loss going up through that opening into the attic.
    
    If you've done it or seen it, please send me info at SALEM::LEVESQUE_T
    
    Thanx,
    
    		Ted



	    I built a box with a door on it.  Frame a box about a foot
	deep around the frame of your attic stairway.  My first attempt
	didn't compensate for just how high the stairway hinges swing
	into the attic (DOH!). You may want to measure how much clearance
	the hinges actually need.
	    Then install a 5/8" to 3/4" plywood door on top of your box.
	The wood will tend to warp, so thicker is probably better.  Run
	some vinyl V seal around your frame and you should have a nearly
	air tight set up.  
	    Except for a big step to get on and off your stairway, this
	works very well.  With no air movement inside the box, you get	
	a high R value... probably higher than the 6" to 8" of insulation
	you have in your attic.  Plus, you can close the door behind you
	while you're in the attic so all your heat doesn't follow you
	    Permanent, cheap, easy and effective.

					Tim

Re. 1666.941

I just finished a project like this. 

I first wanted to put a couple of large polystyrene plates on top of the 
hatch opening, but then I noticed that the spring mechanism of the stairs 
sticks into the attic when the hatch is closed. So this very simple
solution wouldn't work.

I've built a box out of 1/2" thick polystyrene plates. The box is the size 
of the hatch opening. For rigidity, I've used two layers, except in the area
where the spring mechanism sticks into the attic. I've used masking
tape to put all the pieces together.

The box fits up side down on the hatch opening. 

Judging from the temperature of the stairs when I pull them doing, this
really helps cutting down the heat loss.

Below is an attempt to sketch a side view of my solution.


               =======================================| <-- polystyrene box
               |                                      |
               |                                      |
--------------||    spring mechanism     |            || <-- hatch opening
attic floor   ||(when hatch is closed)-> |            ||    (2x6)
              |--------------------------+-------------|
                                spring ->|^^^^^^ -----
                                                 |
                                                 |  <-- stairs
                                           -------   (when hatch is open)
                                           |
                                           |
                                      ------

The job cost me about $10 worth of materials, and 2 hours work.

/Date

    	When I went to pull down my attic stairs last weekend, the metal
    bar attached to the spring bent complete around to the point where you
    could not raise the stairs/door all the way back up. I tried bending it
    back, but it's weakened to the point where it just bends immediately
    again and prevents the door from closing. I temporarily duct-taped some
    supporting metal to this metal bar and was able to close the door. What
    I'd like to do is replace the hardware on this side of the door. It
    simply bolts onto the frame on one end and the stairs/door on the
    other. Does anyone know if it's feasible to do this? If so, does anyone
    know where in Southern N.H. I might be able to find (or order) this
    hardware? I don't have much more than measurements of this door since
    it was in the house when I bought it 4 years ago.

    Odd, mine did too. In fact, the hardware store owner to whom I went
    said that this year, moreso than any in his recent history, there have
    been more attic stair problems than he can recall.
    
    Mine was the rod that connects the spring to that same bar. On mine,
    that bar has been warping toward center for some time, as I have had to
    reach up while opening and force that bar outward. The cause has been
    that over time, the bar has been leaning into the wooden side of the
    ladder and has worn a groove into the wood. As the groove deepens, the
    warp increases.
    
    I found a 2" washer that I plan to install between that bar and the
    wood to provide a consistently flat surface for the bar to rub on. 
    If you find a source of parts, please post. The h/w store owner said a
    big supplier like Somerville Lumber of Plywood Ranch may be able to
    help.
    
    Regards,
    ERIC

    Has any heard of "SIMPLEX 85" attic stairs.  That is what is stamped
    on the stairs.  I assume it is a model name and I would like to find
    out the manufacturer so that I can get some replacement parts for the
    mechanism.
    
    I have checked Home Depot, HQ, and Somerville Lumber and none of them
    have heard of "SIMPLEX 85" or even SIMPLEX.
    
    .... Eric

    If you have a Purchasing group in your building, go down and ask them
    to look at the Thomas Register. It lists companies by what they
    do/produce and by name. That should get you going in the right
    direction.

    I'm installing pull-down attic stairs, and I lost the instructions.
    They are the Century brand stairs.
    
    I made the cutout and built the frame.  Before losing the instructions,
    I read them, and saw how to use straping along the edge to temporarily
    hold the stairs in place while bolting or nailing them to the stud
    rafter frame.
    
    The problem is I tried opening the stairs while just having them sit
    on the floor and it won't open.  Does anyone remember if there are some
    screws or bolts somewhere which are just to keep the stairs from
    opening during shipping?  (I guess I'd also leave them in while lifting
    them up into the attic).   But I don't want to go up into the attic
    and nail the stairs in place, and then get trapped up there forever 
    because I can't get the stairs to open.   
    
    Dave