Conference 7.286::home_work

Look at the trim on the windows to see how much care was used in putting on the 
molding.  If the builders took care to make sure the miters at the window edges 
match up well, then they probably took care in other areas too.  If you find a 
lot of the miters gapped, then they probably didn't take that much care on the 
parts you CAN'T see, either.  Don't count doors, because most builders now uses 
pre-hung doors with the molding already on them.

Paul

    
    
    re: .1
    
    The carpenter that does trim work is not the same that does the
    frame or cabinet work. You may get one carpenter in that is good
    doing the trim, but the carpenters that did the frame work did realy
    lousy work.
    
    There was a goo article in the NH Leader (About the only godd article
    that every appeared in this paper), about home construction in the
    New England area. The article said that in general the contruction
    in the NE area is very poor as compared to the rest of the country.
    Homes are going up too fast. There are very few good carpenters.
    Also each town has its own codes with nobody to inspect them and
    if they have someone they only have enough time to inspect less
    then 10% of them.
    
    Here are some tips to check if the house is constructed well.
    
    . Bring a level with you. Check to see if the walls, floors and
      cabinets are level. If the walls arn't level, then you can have
      structual problems. If the cabinets arn't level then they probably
      didn't take their time when they put them up.
    
    . Check the window casing's visable cracks. Open the windows to
      see how easily they open and close. Again check to see if its
      level.
    
    . Bring a tape measure to see if the rooms are square. A 12 x 12
      room should be 12 feet across at any point. Oposite walls in a
      square room should be the same length.
    
    . Check for moisture in the basement. Wet walls or floor could mean
      there is a problem. I've seen new construction that had wet floors
      and walls. By brother bought a house about 2 years ago in the
      fall. The walls and floor were a little wet when he bought the
      house. The realestate agent/contractor told him that this wasn't
      a problem because the water wasn't that much. Well by spring he
      had almost a foot of water in his basement and rising. The suppump
      couldn't keep up with the water comming in. He ended up sueing
      the construction company for damages. The company went out of
      business before it ever went to court. It cost my brother $3000
      to get it fixed.
    
    . Now adays with the new alarm on Radon, its a good idea to have
      the house checked for radon. This is something you can't see,
      or feel.
    
    
  
   

    
    RE .0
    
    I like cabinets laminated with Formica. Much easier to clean, and
    maintain. Ones personal taste I guess. 

    See what they're using for walls and roofs. That particle crap
    is bad enuf in the walls, but I'd hate see the roof 5 - 10 years
    down the line built with that crap.
    

>                       -< stay away from particle board >-

If you mean the exterior waferboard, I see nothing wrong with using it at all.
I used it on my house, and although I didn't use it on the roof, I definitely 
considered it.  I decided not to, not because I thought the stuff was no good, 
but simply because it hasn't been around long enough and I wasn't sure.  Time 
will only tell, but I'll bet you'll see a LOT less plywood and a lot more 
waferboard used in the future.

Paul

    
    
    	The basement is always a good place to check for good/bad
    	construction.  Check to see that there are no gaps between the
    	concrete and any vertical walls, also check that there are no
    	gaps between the sil and top of concrete wall.
    
    	Make sure that the spike holes do not show any moisture around
    	them and are free from leaking water.  This would indicate
    	wether or not the foundation was properly tarred and sealed.
    
    	Examine the floor joists.  Make sure there is no warping or
        major cracks.  Also check to see what was used for a sub-floor.
        Wafer or particle board is bad because flooring nails tend to
    	work loose from this stuff making for a very squeeky floor.
    
    	See that the heating system is in a logical place.  You may
        want to finish the basement someday and this could present a
    	space problem.
    
        Examine the plumbing.  Look to see if things are logically laid
        out and easily accessible.
    
    	Ask the builder if there is any written warrenty on the windows.
    	Some manufactures give 10 yr. written warrenty.
    
    	Ask the builder what grade roof shingle was used 15,20,25 or
        30 year rated shingle.  
    
    	Inspect the tops of window and door moldings to see if they
        have been properly stained/painted.  This will give you an
        indication of how thorough a job the painters did.
    
        Look down the finished wall.  See how striaght it looks and
        if the sheetrock seams and/or nail holes are visible.  This
    	will give you an idea of how well the wall was finished.  You
        would be suprised how fast nails can work through the finished
    	wall and seams can crack.
    
        Make sure that the wallboard around the tub units is properly
        finished.  Also make sure that there is no gap between the tub
    	unit and finished bathroom floor.  Water will work its way into
    	these cracks and stain ceilings below.
    
        Check to see that the sink faucets give cold water in the cold
    	position and ht water in the hot position.  I live in a house
    	now that this is not the case in the bathroom sink.  It is a
        new house......

        Look to see what kind of lumber was used on any decking.  Presure
        treated lumber is much better and will last much longer.
    
        If any masonry work was done, examine it for straightness and
    	intergration into the finished wall.
    
        Get the builder to correct any problems befor closing if possible.
    	It's much easier then than after the fact.
    
    	Tony.

    Check the flashing over the windows.  Make sure that it is the proper
    length so that it completely covers the top of the window.  It's
    there to keep the water out.  If it is too narrow, even by a little
    bit, you will have major problems later as water will get in.
    
                                                August G. Reinig

    re .5:
    
    I cann see the difference between wafer board and plywood in
    two developments in my area, both about the same age. In one, the
    developer used wafer board on roofs - when the sun is at the right
    angle, you can see where the rafters are. In the other, plywood was
    used, and no such sags appear.

    You might pay close attention to the kind of materials used throughout
    the house. Ex. floor materials - tile or linoleum, hardwood plank
    flooring or all carpet, steel boiler or cast iron, a good brand
    window (Anderson,Pella, ...) or some lesser name brand, solid wood
    kitchen cabinets or particle board boxes, good quality bath fixtures
    or some unknown brand, copper plumbing or all plastic, multizone
    heating(FHW) or electric, solid wood interior doors or hollow core,
    etc.,... I think you'll get the picture. I've been involved with
    building a few houses and are convinced that builders who cut alot
    of corners on inferior materials that can easily be seen, have also
    done alot of corner cutting in areas you can't see. For example:
    everyone is building 6" exterior walls but some people use 24" on
    center studding and some use 16", this also applies to the roof
    rafter spacing (look in the attic and see if its 16 or 24" on center).
    I presently finishing up on my second home and have dug a little
    deeper to install higher quality materials because I'll know it
    will pay for itself in the end. Without question I could of chopped
    20+K off my material costs by installing lesser quality items. I'm
    not saying that you have go in debt up to your ears, just purchase
    the best you can afford because you'll only be replacing an inferior
    product later on down the line and at a larger expense.... Just
    My Philosophy.

    
    Take lots of pictures while your house is being built.  We took
    many while they where building ours, this gave us the ability to
    see where the wood is behind the walls, and the wiring too.  It
    may also help when you go to sell the house, proving the existance
    of whatever...  Plus it's a neat conversation piece.
    
    						.dave.

    Thanks for replies so far - keep the replies coming.  What about
    such things as plumbing, heating systems, electrical, insulation/energy
    conservation practices?
    
    At the end of the note I'll try to summarize from obvious to not
    so obvious.
    
    Gary

    If the builder gives those few extras here and there, he probably
    does it in places you can't see.  Some things that I look for, that
    haven't already been mentioned is:
    
    	1) Were the window frames caulked before the windows themselves
    	    were inserted.  Alot of houses leak air here.
    	2) Was Tyvek used?
    	3) Was the foundation insulated on the outside?  Usually with
    	    styrofoam or similar material.
    	4) Are the sills made of pressure treated wood?
    	5) Was a steel I beam used for the center span of the house
    	    or garage?  This is preferrable because it eliminates alot
    	    of lally columns getting in your way.
    	6) Was something like Owens-Corning Energy Shield (rigid
	    insulation)	used in conjunction with the fiberglass insulation.
	7) Measure the diagonals of a room to check for "squareness"
    	8) Was the subfloor glued to the joist (in addition to nailing)?
    	9) Check the quality of fixture and hardware (door knobs, faucets,
    	    towel bars, kitchen cabinet handles, etc)
    	10) Are all of the supply pipes (hot/cold water and baseboard
    	    HW pipes) insulated with something like Climatube?
    	11) Is the kitchen hood really vented to the outside?
    	12) Is a air-to-air heat exchanger provided, or at least a means
    	    to have one installed properly?  (If they give you one of
    	    these, then you probably have a builder that's knowledgeable
    	    about todays energy conservation techniques)
    
    -al

    RE .5
    One other item I didn't mention is regards to waferboard was the
    adverse reaction people and animals have to the chemicals used to
    hold the "wafers" together.
    I built a dog house using it and our dog started getting listless,
    watery eyes, nose, etc. Took him to the vet, mentioned his new dog
    house in the conversation. He said trash it. We did and he's fine.
    He mentioned cases of people having flu-like symptoms in new homes
    built with it.
    I'm also sure we'll see more and more of it in the years to come,
    mostly because, like today's building industry in general, IT'S
    CHEAPER!
    
    John
    

re: 13

While you are correct about the formaldehyde glue, I believe that the same hold 
true of most, if not all, plywoods.  As far as I know, they use essentially the 
same glue.

Paul

    REF.14. 
    I agree the same glue is generally used in both particle and plywood.
    The major different is the in plywood you have the glue sandwiched
    between layers of wood, thus the glue is less apt to volatize into
    the air. Plywood also puts a layer of solid wood between you and
    any glue. The % of total composition, made of of glue in particle
    board is much high than it is in plywood. I would expect particle
    board uses two to three times more glue as a binder.
    

    Your builder has a lot to do with the quality of the house by his
    selection of contractors and materials. During prosperous times
    it is hard to find competent contractors - they can always get work
    and come at a premium. The material selection can change the price
    of a home by 30% or more - especially in the plumbing and heating.
    A john can run from $35 to well over $250. Levittown electrical
    fixtures come in two grades (cheap and cheaper) while Bryant has
    at least three grades (good, better, and best).
    
    If you cannot spent the time to learn something about the materials
    being put in a house you might gain by hiring an appraiser. They
    you a check list in making an appraisal. If you haven't been in
    the business or closely associated with it, it is extremely difficult
    to make reasonable assessment of the value of a house - there are
    just to many things to look for. In slower times you can look for
    an honest builder. 
    
    

Thanks for all the replies.  Here's a summary of the response (Sorry
if I missed any):

WHAT TO LOOK FOR IN NEW CONSTRUCTION

- Interior

   - How well the miters on interior windows line up
   - Are windows from a premium manufacturer used
   - Do windows open and close easily
   - Are tops of window and door moldings painted/stained
   - Are the walls and cabinets plumb and level.
   - Are interior doors solid or hollow core
   - Are the sheetrock nails popping out
   - Are the rooms square    
   - Has the house been checked for Radon?
   - Is there moisture in the basement, or on the spike holes on
     the basement walls
   - Are there gaps between the concrete basement walls and studs
   - Is the heating system in a logical place or in the middle of the room
   - Is the boiler made of steel or cast iron
   - Is the pluming system logically laid out (easily accessible)
   - Are pipes made of cooper or plastic
   - Are the supply pipes (hot/cold water and baseboard HW pipes) insulated 
   - Does hot water come out of hot spigot and cold out of cold
   - Are bathroom fixtures from a high quality manufacturer 
   - Is wallboard around tub properly finished
   - Are interior floors made of plywood, or particle/wafer board
   - Are kitchen cabinets made of solid wood or particle board
   - Is the kitchen hood really vented to the outside?
   - Is a air-to-air heat exchanger provided, or at least a means
     to have one installed properly?  

Exterior

   - Are walls and roofs made of plywood, particle board, or wafer board
   - What grade roof shingle was used 15,20,25 or 30 year rated shingles
   - Are window sills made of pressure treated wood?
   - Is pressure treated lumber used on exterior decks    
   - Is the flashing over windows the proper length so that it 
     completely covers the top of the window.
   - Were the window frames caulked before the windows were inserted.  
   - Was Tyvek used?
   - Was Owens-Corning type Energy Shield (rigid insulation)
     used in conjunction with the Fiberglas insulation.
   - Was the foundation insulated on the outside?  (Usually with Styrofoam)

Foundation/Walls
   - is center studding 16' or 24'.
   - Was a steel I beam used for the center span of the house or garage? 

Gary
    

    I am an American working in Madrid Spain.  I want to build a retirement 
    home here starting next year.  I plan to use local contractors to put up 
    the frame, but I am considering finishing it myself (windows, doors,
    plumbing, electrical, floors, kitchen, heating, etc.)  I am in no hurry, 
    but I do have a budget and these items are expensive here. 
    
    I have been considering buying these items in the states and have them
    shipped by container to Spain.  I would come over, rent a truck, pick
    up a container, buy and load the material, and take it to the port to
    be shipped.  This was how I shipped my household goods when I moved
    here.
    
    My questions are: 
    Where, on the east coast, can I find the best selection at the best prices?
    Can I get wholesales prices by buying in the volume needed for one house?  
    Would I get a break for export?  
    Would I need a Spanish import company to front for me?  
    Can I get catalogs and prices so I can decide what and were to buy before 
    going to the states?
    What should I order in advance that may not be in stock (I.E. windows)?
    
    Maybe the savings would not cover my trip and shipping, but from what I
    see in the ads of the occasional newspaper, it makes my mouth water.   
    
    Any advice or pointers would be appreciated.
    
    Ken

    
    I hope you have consulted a real estate lawyer on this.  In the past
    there have been punitive tax measures against foreign residents owning
    homes in Med. countries.  In one case (Malta, I think) the Gov't
    put on enormous tax hikes to drive out foreign residents & free up
    the housing for locals.  Talk about no taxation w/o representation.
    
    Unless you want very special materials, I would be really surprised if
    you could beat prices that way.  Spain used to be one of the cheapest
    places in Europe for building costs, next to Greece.
    
    I was intrigued to here you say the word "frame" and I wonder if you
    have talked to a local architect yet. I guess my first question is what
    style of home you plan to build? If you wanted to build a Cape or
    Saltbox in Toledo (not Ohio) You would probably have to import things
    like cape-style sash windows. However, if you go local, then much of
    recent Mediterranean building is done by poured reinforced concrete,
    faced or stuccoed and extensively tiled inside.  Older places may be
    stone brick or even adobe, but I recall very few all-wood buildings. 
    There is some timber-framed building around, but generally it is
    covered with a brick exterior. (This isn't the wild west you know, you
    pioneering types can't simply canoe up the river and fling up a log
    cabin.)
    
    Two points here - any imported style will look like an anachronism, and
    using non-native materials will have the same effect plus you run the
    great risk of using materials that are not suited to the climactic
    extremes (like wood & vinyl siding!)  So, if you follow local styles,
    there is no way that importing concrete & brick from East Coast USA
    will be cheaper and they will probably be less effective.  Apart from
    that, you might end up buying tile that has been imported to the US
    from Europe  ;-).  Many US building methods would not be legal under
    local code, nor appropriate for the climate.
    
    If you want only things like windows, finishings, fittings, doors and
    cabinets then there are a couple of points:
    
    	Standard formwork in Europe will not fit US windows.  You may need
        custom built forms at increased cost.  This point goes for much of
        the slab & frame construction.
    
    	US sizings will be radically different to those used in Europe.
        it will be tough to put together a hybrid kitchen, except that
        you will have no problem fitting a pathetically undersized European
        refirgerator into the space intended for a MegaMaytag.  Lots to
        think about here such as integral lighting, faucet placement.
    	Again, you could come up against code violations for materials.
    
    	It will be impossible to get expertise in using US materials,
        therefore you will have to be totally self-reliant in using
        such materials.  Forget about warranties and third party
        liability, The manufacturer will not support personally imported
        items.
    
    	A lot of modern US houses are turning towards European "styles"
        in things like kitchen cabinetary, lighting etc.  You are most
        likely to be able to get these locally at a cheaper price as
        much of this stuff is currently imported into the US and priced
        accordingly.  On the other hand, if you wanted to model a federal
        or Colonial interior, chances are that you could get materials
        and competent labour locally, Spanish carpenters are generally
        pretty good.
    
    You will certainly get embroiled in import regulations, and you will
    require an agent to do this for you.  Any form of personal import to
    the EEC is fraught with red tape and delays.  This will cost, and you
    may also be taxed on the materials (which usually makes their price
    comparable to the US.
    
    One way around this would be to import materials from other EEC
    countries, where prices are lower than Spain.  This should NOT require
    documentation or taxation, providing it is within the EEC and your
    status as a resident is OK.  You can also pick the best quality
    products and only incur land shipping charges.
    
    Personally, I have not seen a really significant difference in prices
    between Europe and the US except where the item is rarer in Europe. 
    For example a gas FHA system in the US, in kit form, is very similar in
    price to a gas FHW system in the UK.  (Also, the US system would not be
    plated for compliance with Spanish law & safety regs. so you would not
    be able to install it there.) A few years ago, I bought a kit system
    from a DIY place in the UK (appropriately named "Texas DIY") for about
    $1900 complete. (Balanced flue boiler, piping & fittings, 7 panel rads,
    pumps & LX).  You would not do a 6-room house for much cheaper in the
    USA.  On the other hand, things like Air Conditioners are much cheaper
    here, although again they will not meet European regs, power reqs,
    safety requirements or even fit in the windows correctly!
    
    
    I'm sorry to sound like a prophet of doom -- I think that your goal is
    fully attainable without the need to import stuff from the US, unless
    you REALLY want that authentic colonial cape on the seafront at
    Torremolinos!
    
    Good luck & regards,
    
    Colin

    Consider a Kit house, you know one of those houses you build from a
    kit.  This way everything is pre-packaged and shipped in one nice
    bundle.  
    
    But the whole idea seems real risky to me.  Different plumbing
    standards, different electrical system.  I dunna kno.  Ya sure ya want
    to do this?
    
    MikeB.

    re .1,.2
    
    I was born and raised in the U.S.A.  My father built several houses
    while I lived at home.  I have remodeled my own houses in the U.S.
    I moved to Spain 27 years ago, and brought with me an all American
    kitchen.  I have been buying many DIY items on my vacation trips back 
    to the U.S.  I have remodeled 4 homes here in Spain.  I had my own
    business for four years that imported many items from the U.S. to
    Spain.   Therefore I am very familiar with all the problems that you
    have brought up.  I don't consider building a "U.S." house.  I want to
    build a Spainsh style house with U.S. features.  There are many of
    these in southern Calfornia.  The frame would be steel, concrete,
    brick, tile, etc., but many of the items I would bring from the U.S.
    are either a better design, higher quality, or cheaper than the
    respective item in Spain.  As far as sizes, I can build the frame to
    fit the U.S. features.  Wood finishing is expensive but highly
    desirable in Spain.  Quality wood kitchen cabinets are generally
    imported from Germany.  I know that now with the entry to the ECC it
    might be better to import from a ECC country but I need prices and
    spects from both sources to determine that.  
    
    With the dollar so low, and the recession prices, I still feel I may 
    be able to save by buying U.S.  Spain is now the most expensive country
    in Europe.  An average 3 bedroom home of 2000 square feet 10 miles from
    Madrid sells for over $600,000.  A 20,000 square foot building lot in 
    the same area sells for $200,000. To construct your own 200 s/f home
    cost about $200,000. So it does pay to build.
    
    Americans often do not realize how cheap and easy it is to buy in the
    good old U.S.A.
    
    Ken,  an expat that would like to go home but has his wife and kids that
    wants to live in Spain.
    

I am thinking of having a house built.  Here's my question/concern.

I am a single female, and while I have acquired what I think is a
fair amount of general construction knowledge over the years (from 
friends and from work I've had done on my own house), I feel in no 
way equipped to work head to head with a potential builder in drawing 
up a set of plans and negotiating price.

I had an interesting conversation with a building inspector today,
who gave me a few pointers, but he also said that when the town
inspects, it inspects only to minimal requirements, whatever they
might be.  So between minimum and 'ideal' requirements, a builder
still has a lot of leeway to construct a house as he desires.  
This building inspector also pointed out that it is not uncommon
for builders to spend a lot of money on finish, but skimp on framing 
and base construction costs, just because finish is what the homeowner 
actually "sees".  I kind of figured that out myself (finish, I'm fair
to good at).

So... I am looking for a person to more or less act as a consultant
to me -- i.e.,

	o  to help me work up a set of specs that represent 
	   quality construction, as well as design;
	o  to help me negotiate price with the builder and 
	   eventually come up with a contract;
	o  to help me inspect the ongoing work on the house,
	o  to come up with a final punchlist, etc., at the
	   end.

And I want all this for around 160K!  Who might such a person
be, and who might I contact?  I asked the building inspector if
he did these kind of side jobs, and he said not really (guess it
might be a conflict of interest or something, don't know).  My
guess is that another local general contractor might not want to
get involved in this kind of thing either, nor would I want that
kind of potential "collusion" (strong word, but you get the point).
And lastly, though it sounds like what I want might be an architect,
that sounds kind of extravagant to me just to have a little Cape 
built.

So..... any and all suggestions would be appreciated.  The area I
am looking in is Groton.

Thanks in advance.

Carol

    
    I think you answered your own question - you need an architect!
    However, It could cost you between 12% and 17% of the total cost
    of the project.   Might be cheaper if local business is slow.
    For this, you can expect:
    
        selection of site and placement/orientation
    
    	plans & specs, from roughs to final drawings and specs. review
        of available technologies in heating, lighting and materials.
        (The architect migh have some off-the-shelf designs to help you
         keep down costs)
    
        selection of materials & grades, bill of materials for costing.
          
    	submission to several GCs for a quote
    
    	review of quotes to help you pick contractor (if possible a site
        visit to a site that the GC is currently working at.)
    
        contract with GC, review of subcontractors
    
    	obtaining all building codes, permissions
    
        ensuring compliance with local ordinances & codes
    
        supervision of GC and subcontractors work, inspection & sign off
        at critical stages.
    
    	ensuring correct grades of material are used
    
        adherance to scheduling and budget, negotiating penalties.
    
    	change management (if you want to make changes during construction,
        but it will cost more)
    
    	final inspection and certification.	
    
    
    I'd tend to go for a local architect with a small business of long
    standing in the community - and ask to see a recent portfolio.  It's
    also extremely useful to be able to plan future expansions and
    upgrades and to always have the detail construction plans of the house.
    
    For example, if you think that you might want a bath or hot tub in
    future, you can ensure that the floor is appropriately reinforced to
    take the weight, or preinstall double headers in the frame for future
    sliders to a deck.
    
    Good luck
    
    regards,          
    
    Colin
    

    I think your best defense may be to be sure (to the best of your
    ability) that you hire an honest, reliable contractor whom you
    can trust.  Ask around and see if anybody's name keeps coming up
    as "good."  

Hi!

RE: .0

Yes you should be very careful about this.  I suggest finding a good local
real estate lawyer as a start.  They will know who some of the bad builders
are and point you clear of them.  You don't want to give a builder a large,
unsecured deposit, and find they went bankrupt and left the country.

Either HOME_WORK or REAL_ESTATE has a good discussion of the problem of 
deposits on new construction.

Make the house specifications and blue prints a part of your contract with
the builder (that YOUR lawyer prepares) and try and get as much detail in
there as possible.  Its hard to think about this all up front, but once you
are signed up, you may find that your builder will use any change request to
hit you with unreasonable upgrade charges.  Basically, before you are signed 
up, your builder is still competing with others for your business.  Once you 
are signed up and building you have lost this advantage.

Be sure to check out the builder's allowances before you sign up.  They are
usually set too low in order to make the total price attractive.  Light 
fixtures add up fast.  Be sure to go out and make a tentative selection of 
stuff that allowances have been provided for, so you'll know if enough money 
has been budgeted.

Like you said, having an architect custom design you a little cape might be 
overkill, but you may find an architect that is very hungry for work that will
do this for a reduced fee.  And you need not go the "full" architect route, 
you might be able to get one to just act as a consultant for an hourly fee.
An architect definitely has the skills you are looking for.

The book HOUSE by Tracy Kidder (spell?) is a good book to read.  This will 
give you a feeling of some of the owner/builder/architect interactions and 
some of the stress involved.  Many bookstores will have it.

The home show at the world trade center I think starts around the 27th?
You'll find all kinds of people trying to sell you stuff you can't afford
there.

Of course most important of all is to start worrying about why you want to
do this.  This will give you practice for once you start building and have
to worry about why you are doing it.  Don't know if you have to worry
afterward about why you did it, I haven't gotten that far.  I'm still 
building and worrying about why I'm doing it...

It is likely the house you build will be worth much less than you spent to
have it constructed.  And at this point there are a lot of existing houses
on the market to choose from, sooooo, what is the attraction of a new
custom built home for you?

Anyway, good luck with your project.

    Greg

    
    Goooooddddddddd  lllluuuuuucccccccckkkkkkk!!!!  :)
    
    I seem to remember looking at a book, How to be you own contractor.  
    But I cant remember where.  It told about the advantages and pit
    fall.  "Planning" is the key.  There is enought information out
    there today to get where your going without much difficutly.  Its
    dealing with the (sub)contrator that offers the greatest challenge.
    
    Finding someone?  Word or mouth is the best seller.  There are a lot
    of people out there who are looking for work.  Now you can deal with
    getting the most for your buck.
    
    I took 2 year to finish my house.  But 99% I did myself.  My big draw
    back was getting the "small" town inspector off his duff! And two 
    local electrical contractors who I despenced with.....
    
    My advise......Choose a blueprint that you like.  Interview several
    builders. (getting cost est., methods, materials, time frame)  Choose
    one. Always do your homework!  AND GET IT WRITING!
    
    Have fun!
    JD

    Thanks all for the replies.
    
    Greg, I am already worrying, so I got a good laugh out of your
    reply.  Also wondering from these replies if this is really 
    what I want to do.  Maybe I ought to keep looking just a bit
    longer.  By the way, why do you say the house, when built, 
    would probably be worth less?  That's kind of defeating the 
    purpose, isn't it, especially when all I want is a nice little
    cape built to my specifications, not some builders minimum specs?
    
    FYI, the building inspector I talked to recommended a firm called
    Self-Reliance, out of Ashburnham.  What they do is help people 
    such as myself,through the building process, or actual do-it-
    yourselfers who want to build an addition or remodel.
    I am getting more info this weekend on their services, but over
    the phone, I was given a list of the services they offer -- you
    can pick and choose as you like.
    
    	1)  architectural drawings/design
    	2)  structural design
    	3)  plans -- BOM
    	4)  permitting
    	5)  general bid specs
    	6)  procurement contract
    	7)  progress inspection
    	8)  help on DIY
    
    I don't know anything about their fees, or whatever, but I thought
    I'd talk to them.  I think the trick here would be in not using up
    so much of your money using them instead of getting the house built.
    (I'm beginning to think that finding a builder you can "trust" may
    be the answer to this problem!)
    
    Oh, well....
    
    Carol
    
    

>By the way, why do you say the house, when built, 
>    would probably be worth less?  That's kind of defeating the 
>    purpose, isn't it, especially when all I want is a nice little
>    cape built to my specifications, not some builders minimum specs?
    
    Because it's *your* specs, not someone else's, necessarily.
    You have to expect that your specs will add more to the cost
    than what a builder could get by with. You will have a nicer
    house, but those extras may (will?) not translate into a higher-
    valued house than the basic cape up the street. It may be worth
    it to you, but not the rest of the market, and the market sets
    the price.
    I personally wouldn't let that stop you however. In this day
    and age, houses should be designed to get the most enjoyment
    for the owners, not for maximum resale value. If you were to do
    some work yourself - that could change, however, in general,
    new construction will always cost more.
    
    John

Another book worth reading, which I recommended in an earlier note, is
"Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House".  There's also a movie version, and
it may be worthwhile to see both.  Though this is fiction, and possibly
"worst case", it can give you some ideas of what to watch out for (and what
you're in for!)  I find it a bit too painful at times, but it remains one
of my favorites.

				Steve

Hi!

Like .6 says, new construction usually looses out, especially in todays market.
Although the cost of new construction has dropped, I don't think it has as much
as existing homes have.  

Also, when it comes to the appraised value of a home, I think the market looks
for size before quality, especially in a smaller home.  This is why the 
standard builders home contains the quality it does.  The larger new home with
minimum interior decorating, (vinyl on bath floor only rather than ceramic on
floor and walls, for example) will be able to command a higher price.  When it
comes to reselling a custom built home, I think the extra quality will make it
sell it faster, but probably won't command the kind of money that was spent
to get it.

This is especially true in a home that is small enough to be considered a
starter home.  People who buy starter homes are generally just trying to get
into the market and then save for a larger home.  They would like better
quality, but if they have to choose between a quality small starter home,
or a builder grade larger home, I think a lot of people will go for the larger 
space figuring they can remodel and upgrade later.  

A smaller quality home might have a better chance if it was built so it could 
be expanded, and it was in a neighborhood with larger more expensive homes.
But this is hard to arrange, as many developments with larger homes have 
protective covenants that place restrictions on the minimum size home allowed.

What are you looking for in a home that you haven't found yet in the existing
homes on the market?

    Greg

    What am I looking for?  I guess a "short cut" to a house I really
    like.  There is not much on the market -- other than the inventory
    that's been there all winter, and now some houses just beginning
    to trickle on, it has been hard to find a house I really like, 
    also one that's in my price range.  
    
    Maybe I'm embellishing the past, but when I bought a house before,
    it seems I went a number of times with the broker, found a house,
    no problem, then bid on it.  Something's changed this time around --
    don't know if it's just me and my tastes, or if others in the buyer's
    market are finding the same problem.
    
    I'd be interested to hear.
    
    Carol
    

    
    Are you more concerned with detailing and finish rather than basic
    construction? Previous replies raise a very good point about the resale
    value in relation to the building costs.  I'm wary of the argument that
    says that purchasers will be persuaded by finish details - if you do it
    exclusively to personal taste, you may even put a lot of people off.
    
    So how about buying a house that is part finished?  My neighbour has an
    identical garrison to mine which looks far better because he did most
    of the interior himself and paid considerably less for the shell.
    I'm still ironing out the problems left by the original builder which
    were ignored by the first owner.
    
    I'm also wary of the "dependable" GC.  (Even coming from a family
    that's been in the building business since 1919.)  The most
    well-intentioned GC is trying to make money and will cut corners
    without qualified supervision.  Unfortunate fact of life.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    After reviewing the notes previous to this writing I am surprized that
    the term "Construction Management" has not been adressed.  This type of
    construction was developed so that the owner of a project can gain
    control of his or her construction project through the use of an
    individual or firm that can draw and coordinate plans, develope a budget by 
    soliciting bids from subcontractors and material vendors, and if you so
    choose manage the construction of that project.  While the construction
    manager is developing plans, budgets, and managing the construction
    project the owner is asked to review all of these tasks and
    negociations in an "Open Book" fashion and is requested to make
    decisions from the information presented.  The owner can participate in
    this process as much or as little as he or she is comfortable with.
      The cost of this method of construction will very according to the
    size of the project and the responsibilities given to the construction
    manager.  Generally, a fee is determined at the beginning of the
    project based on the owner's construction budget.
    
    If this sounds like something you would like to pursue, send me E-mail
    and I'll give you a reference.
    
    Jim 
    

    
    Sounds like extra money being dished out for something you 
    can do yourself.
    
    

    Thanks for all the replies -- I have found them quite interesting
    and enlightening!  
    
    Re .12, yes, though it may be extra money to hire one of these 
    firms, it sounds like a good investment, as least for myself --
    I have talked to a couple of these firms, and the way they seem
    to work is that with their assistance, you/I would become the 
    general contractor -- thereby saving those "built-in" costs that
    a general would charge for this service anyway.  With the steps
    as they've outlined them to me, they essentially "walk" you 
    through the process of design, plans, bidding, ongoing inspection,
    etc.
    
    One company I talked to said they charge about 10% for their 
    services.  I'm talking to another company later in the week to
    see how they charge.
    
    I guess the benefit to this would be that you get to be your
    own general and therefore have more control of the process --
    also, either pro or con, depending on how you look at it --
    you'd sure learn ALOT about building -- kind of like an intense
    crash course, that might even exceed the anxiety and frustration
    I had when I took my first C course! 
    
    I don't know -- I'm still inclined to want to take the easy and
    cheaper(?) way out and just keep looking until I find existing
    construction.  But until I'm decided, I'll just keep gathering
    information.
    
    Has anybody else used the type of "construction management" firms
    to build?  
    
    Carol

    
    
    ...Hummmmmm....??  10% of a 120k house is a nice paycheck
    for just directing the program!  So let me know when you'd
    like to start!....:) :) :)
    
    Handy Andy Inc.

Hi!

I'm currently building a house using a construction manager.  In my case
it is an Architect on a Design/Build proposal.

Ten percent is too much in this market, if we are just talking about 
supervising the building process.  I had one builder offer 6%, to do this,
for example.  If lots of custom design work is involved as well, then 10% 
is reasonable, even low.  But they should not be just walking you through it.  
For that amount of money they should on-site supervising the subs.

Basically using a construction manager falls between hiring a builder
and being your own GC.  How close it comes to either of these other methods 
depends on the deal you strike with the CM.  

I thought I'd like to be my own GC, but after seeing the work my CM has
had to do, no way would I have the time to do it and continue to work full
time.  One of the problems has been that many of the subcontractors I've 
dealt with can not be trusted to do acceptable work.  I've hit a few good 
ones that can be told what to do and left alone, but many have to be watched 
at all times.  Even with tight supervision, I've had many problems that have 
had to be corrected later.

I'm building a home that deviates from the norm by quite a bit, so this is
contributing to the problems, but it doesn't account for many of them.
I heard from one person that some of these problems are due to subcontractors 
dropping their good workers when things got tight, trying to get by with less 
skilled workers who can be paid lower wages.  

Some of the advantages of building with a CM vs building with a builder:

    The cost build a house and pay a CM will usually be much lower than the 
    cost a builder will charge you.  The builder is assuming a big risk in 
    guaranteeing you a certain price for the home.  They must cover that risk 
    by charging you more.

    Once you sign up with a builder, many of them look to make back any
    money you talked them down on with high charges for minor changes.  
    If you set your contract up with your CM correctly, this can be avoided.

    The danger of a builder going bankrupt with your deposit is eliminated.
    You take out the construction loan from the bank and control its 
    distribution.  You buy the land and hold title to it.

    If you set your contracts up right, you have full control over the project.
    If things are going very badly, you can dismiss everyone and look for a 
    new CM and new subs. With a builder, all you can do is threaten to not 
    close.  Since the builder is usually holding a large deposit, and a 
    contract that says you are going to buy, they can threaten back.  I've
    even heard of builders trying to limit the access of the owner to the 
    house while its under construction so they can't see problems before they 
    get hidden.

    The CM draws up the budget and reviews it with you.  You see where all
    the money is going.  No worrying about how much profit the builder is
    hiding.  During construction, you control the money and write the checks.

Some of the disadvantages of building with a CM vs building with a builder:

    You have to find a lot to build on.  I found this to be the hardest part
    of the entire process, so far.  Many developers will not sell you a lot
    in their development if you are not going to use them as the builder.
    However, those that are under stress will sell you a lot.

    It is likely you need more cash on hand to do this.  The bank will usually
    require a larger downpayment, because a construction loan is considered
    to be a much higher risk.  Also you need money to get the construction
    going as the bank will usually only distribute mortgage funds to cover
    the portion of the house that has been completed.

    You are assuming the risks of things going wrong.  

    The contracts are more involved.  Basically, how do you insure in your
    contract that the CM will really do the supervising work required.  
    One of the architect societies makes some standard contracts for this,
    but it really contains very vague language as you might expect.  Just make 
    sure you can dismiss them if they don't work out without having to pay
    some sort of major penalty.  And make sure you have a good lawyer look \
    things over before you sign up.

    You will be more involved, and it is a lot more work.  My check signing
    hand hurts.

There is lots more I could say, but I don't have the time...

If you are trying to do a very custom home, then consider the Architect
design/build route.  You'll need to find a hungry architect to be able to
afford to build a small house this way, but there are lots out there 
looking for work, so you might find one that is hungry enough to give
you a good deal.  Although you can make a good case for a CM firm being
better than an Architect as a CM, I feel that the Architect is a safer bet
in one sense in that they will have a very strong desire to see the custom
home they designed built correctly and looking good.  It is that kind of 
commitment you need in a CM.

If you are happy with the standard builder home, I'm not sure this way is 
worth the risk and effort.  

    Good luck!
    Greg

    I would start buying those home plans magazines - chances are your home
    has already been designed several times.  I built my own home in
    Pepperell from a stock plan.  
    
    I found a builder who primarily does additions, garages, and family
    rooms.  I hired him to frame, side, and roof my house.  I hired an
    electrician who mostly does new homes for small builders; his only
    employee is his son part-time.  The plumber was in about the same
    situation.  
    
    If you hire smaller, well established firms, you become their "big"
    project, you don't get lost among the condo and commercial projects
    that larger subs do.  
    
    My wife drove a school bus by our site six times a day, so we could see
    what was going on at the site.  I visited the site at lunch time
    everyday - - needless to say, if you work 45 minutes away from the
    site, you'll never be there when the work's getting done.
    
    Finding a site requires figuring out which Real estate agent is the
    "land guy" in town.  
    
    Go to town hall and ask about who does building, electrical, etc. 
    You'll be able to read between the lines and figure out who's good and
    who's not.
    
    Marry a rich guy ;-)  ;-).
    
    Carl

I have moved a recommendation for a construction consultant from this note 
to note 2034.37. Please keep recommendations in that note and post pointers 
to the recommendation here.

    Vic, as mod
 

Advice Sought:

My fiance's family  offered to build me a house in  a good location for 100K. 
The land is part of a 40-acre parcel.  I'd receive  approximately 2 acres with 
road frontage.

The house would be built by members of his family, who are all good carpenters
and have experience building houses. But, they don't construct houses for a 
living.

My fiance's family plans on spending ~50K on building the house. The other 50K
would go toward the loan on the rest of the land. 

The 2 acres has a house on it now:  a very old, dilapidated garrison.
It would have to be torn down (the building inspector said it'd be okay to 
burn it).  The cesspool is probably going to need to be redug, as well as the
well.  

I'd like to build a contemporary Cape on the site, the specifics of which
haven't been determined. 

I want to make sure that I understand what I'm getting into, if I agree
to this offer.  

One of my main concerns is that the actual dollars will exceed the estimate.
Already, we know the following:

New cesspool 
New well
Removal of old house 
New foundation
Surveyor costs will be around 3K. 

Is it feasible to remove an old house, and build a new one for 50K?

How would I get a construction loan?  Or, do I need to get a mortgage?
   Or, do they need to get the construction loan?  

Do I need to get a real estate lawyer?  What does one do?  

What kind of documents do I need to start this?

Does this sound like a sound thing to do?  

The house site is about 1.5 acres away from a man-made pond. 
    Would that pose any problems?

Any advice or suggestions are welcome. 

Kathy

	My father, who is a builder in NH, told me that he can build
        a house for between $45 and $55 per square foot, depending on
        type of garage (attached/under), and how the house is finished
        (linoleum/tile etc.).

	So, using the figure of $50/square foot, you could get a house
        of about 1000 square feet for $50K (a very small house... most
        condo's are bigger).

	A 2000 sq ft house would cost $100,000 or so, plus the value 
        of the land (say $50K) plus builders profit.... easily selling
        for $200K.

        I would be very leary of this deal... If you agree to it,
        do not give them any money up front.  Also, get a lawyer
        to protect you.  Keep in mind that if things go wrong on
        this deal with your fiances family, things might go wrong
        with your fiance... is it worth the risk?

        Karen

    I second .1's opinion on what will happen if things go wrong. Can you
    afford bad blodd between you and your future in-laws? BTW things
    *always* go wrong.
    
    .1's estimate on cost per square foot sounds right on for a typical
    house. I have seen the cost per square foot rise to $100 for fancier
    (incl: most contemporary) designs.
    
    For $50k I would expect that you could build a small, simple house. Is their
    labor part of the cost or is it free? If it is free then I would expect
    a much nicer house.
    
    After building the house you still have to consider the well and
    septic. If the lot is flat and has good drainage I would expect your
    septic system to come in for around $5k, if not double or
    quadruplethat amount. I plan to budget $5k for my well when I have it
    drilled. This is sort of a worst case price but I want to be prepared.
    In any event you should *be prepared* to spend *at least* $10k for well
    and septic.
    
    Do you need to clear any trees from the site? What about landscaping,
    paving for driveways and walks?
    
    You mention that you are "1.5 acres" away from a man made pond. How far
    are you in linear feet? Will this pond be considered a wetland? If so
    your leaching field CANNOT be located within 100 feet of the pond. Are
    there any streams feeding this pond that would be considered wetlands?
    You may not put "structures" within 100 feet either. Some towns
    consider driveways to be "structures".
    
    Still 2 acres is a pretty good sized piece of land unless it is all
    spread out in some unusual shape. Is the land fairly dry and level
    overall? If so it is probably all right, but your surveyor or civil
    engineer should be able to identify some potential difficulties such as
    the aforementioned wetlands.
    
    Lastly, YES, definately hire a good real estate lawyer. Do this not
    because you lack trust in your future in-laws, but because you want to
    receive a clear title to the land. This is probably more important in
    this type of situation than in any other. With in-laws small property
    errors are most likely to be tolerated, but this will not work when you
    want to sell the property someday. It will be a lot harder to clear the
    title of any clouds years from now when various in-laws start to die
    off than if you make a little extra effort to do it now. A good real
    estate lawyer will make certain that all details are handled correctly.
    This will also go a long way to avoid any potential future family conflicts
    that may develop over misunderstandings in exactly what was transferred
    to you.
    
    	I am going through some serious renovations on a property that we
    bought recently. My experiences lead me to the following rule of thumb:
    Plan to build your house, then estimate what it will cost. To arrive at
    what you will end up paying for overruns and unanticipated expenses
    double your original estimate.  ;-} ;-}
    
           				good luck,
    					Mark

    If you go through with this, I would suggest contacting your local fire
    department and asking if they would like to use the old house as a
    training exercise in fighting fires.  I was on a voluteer fire dept in
    college and participated in one of these.

    That last reply is kind of funny in that....
    
    Don't you _want_ to burn it to the ground?  So either choose the worst
    Fire-dept in reach or tell them to "fake" it.....
    
    ;-)
    
    Steve

    The rickety old farmhouse that used to stand on the land where our
    synagogue is now starred in a firefighter training movie - we
    originally tried to find someone to buy the building and move it off
    the site, but it turned out to not be worth attempting due to the
    condition of the building.  I wasn't there when the big fire was
    filmed, but I hear it was quite a show!  And it generated some amount
    of money, which was much better than paying someone to knock down the
    old building and haul away the debris.  I don't know who arranged this
    deal, though.  I'd start with the local fire department.
    
    /Charlotte

    One of my former roomates told the story of a house that he had lived
    in that was used in a Hollywood movie. They blew it up!

It isn't clear to me whether or not your future in-laws plan to make money
on the deal.  It sounds, though, as if they are proposing this largely as
a gift -- a 2 acre building lot for $50K sounds like a good deal, and so
does $50K for building a decently sized house -- it would surely be pretty
bare bones, if regular labor costs are included ($15-25/hour).

It sounds like it could be an excellent deal -- BUT, make sure everything
is completely clear about the deal.  Talk with your future in-laws about
what happens if (when) cost overruns occur.  Plan to have a whole lot more
money on hand to chip in at the right moment.  Don't do it unless the
result will be a house you want in a place you want.  But when things go
wrong during construction, remember that you'd have some trouble no matter
who was building it.

	Best of luck,
	Larry

Another thing to consider is selling the house.  Are your in-laws going to 
resent it when you sell the house and pocket the profit on their labor?  Are
they going to hate having strangers smack dab in the middle of their 40 acres?
Considering that for the money you are talking about you are not going to 
build a castle, you will be "moving up" some day.  You might want to have a
discussion around this subject.

Stan

    Somebody mentioned what happens if problems with the building and so
    on sour the relationships with in-laws / fiancee ... consider also the
    vice versa ... what happens if things sour with the fiancee before
    the house is complete ... only you know if there is a chance of
    problems but be sure you talk about what might happen if it does and
    make sure the contracts for land / house / labour are in writing ...
    Just the kind of thing to cause friction because someone will say
    "You don't trust us" ... but the only real answer is that it protects
    everybody involved if it is in writing.
    
    Stuart

I get along well with my in-laws.  I attribute this partly to the 900 miles
between us.  I certainly wouldn't want to live next door to them.

Thanks for all your replies!

To answer some of your questions, and prevent further confusion:

1.  The labor is free. The family would build the building in their spare time.
    
2.  The land is level and dry overall.  

3.  Using the building as a fire training excercise is a good idea. Thanks.

4.  RE: RGB::SEILER "Larry Seiler"                           

>It isn't clear to me whether or not your future in-laws plan to make money
>on the deal.  It sounds, though, as if they are proposing this largely as
>a gift -- a 2 acre building lot for $50K sounds like a good deal, and so
>does $50K for building a decently sized house -- it would surely be pretty
>bare bones, if regular labor costs are included ($15-25/hour).

We'd have to build the house for 50K. The other 50K would go to the loan on the
land.  It's not a gift, by any means.  The owner of the land wants to get from
under the loan and go into the Peace Corps for a couple years.  He feels that if
he tried to sell the land right now, he'd lose money. So, as an alternative,
he'd proposed building a house for 100K on the land.  He needs $50K to tie him
over for the next two years.  

I find that building a house for under 50K is unfeasible.  Surveying,  well,
septic, and foundation would total 20K, leaving only 30K for the house. If
there's overruns, the house would suffer.  Things would have to be cut out, such
as leaving the upstairs unfinished.  

I have decided against this offer, because I don't want to deal with the worry.

Thanks for all your input in here and mail! 

Kath

I've been around to a few new-home developments and have some
questions. I'm interested in the pre-construction lots.
Can anyone help ?

First let me point out that I am a complete novice when it comes to
house-construction.

All of the developments seem to be 2x4. Does anyone use 2x6 construction ?
How much extra would/should a builder charge for 2x6 ? How much more for
the upgraded insulation ? I assume the garage would still be 2x4 ?

How much extra would a builder charge for cathedral ceiling in a
second-floor master-bedroom ?

I've got a few more, but these are the two biggest.

If it matters in the above, assume a 26x36 colonial.

George

    Any builder will do 2 x 6.Two years ago on my 26 x 38 colonial
    the 2x6 difference was $1500 and that included the insulation.
    
    Mike

>>            <<< Note 4676.0 by HELIX::THISSELL "George Thissell" >>>
>>                        -< Pre-construction Questions >-

>>All of the developments seem to be 2x4. Does anyone use 2x6 construction ?
>>How much extra would/should a builder charge for 2x6 ? How much more for
>>the upgraded insulation ? I assume the garage would still be 2x4 ?

What part of the country?  If in the North East,  I wouldn't touch a builder
who didn't use 2x6 or have some sort of alternate plan to get the required
amount of insulation.

>>How much extra would a builder charge for cathedral ceiling in a
>>second-floor master-bedroom ?

My builder charged me $300 dollars for a front to back cathedral ceiling.
He used roof trusses so I don't think it actually cost him anymore in
materials since it works out to about the same amount of lumber,  just put
together differently.

Garry

    Thanks for the responses. I didn't mean to imply that the builder
    wouldn't do 2x6 construction. I haven't spoken with any builders yet
    about it; the main reason I'm asking is that I wouldn't
    know if it was reasonable if the builder said $X  or $10X.
    
    	Another point I was considering was central a/c. I've read
    a few notes in here about it and the ballpark number seems to be
    in the $2K-$3K range. The other houses in one development
    have FHW by Oil and they don't have central a/c.  Would it be
    more expensive for the builder to install FHA than FHW ? 
    Could I expect a price break or would I be paying more ?
    
    George
    

Many communities and some states (New Hampshire, for example) have minimum
insulation level requirements for new construction which would disallow
2x4 construction in most cases.  Check with your local building inspector.

			Steve

re: .3, George

Never having had either installed in any new construction I contracted,
I'm only guessing, but I expect it's more costly to install ductwork
than it is to run the plumbing lines for a FHW system. I'd welcome
being corrected.

The advantage of course is that if you're considering central air and you
have the FHA, your only additional major cost is the compressor. But you
knew that already.

-Jack

>>    have FHW by Oil and they don't have central a/c.  Would it be
>>    more expensive for the builder to install FHA than FHW ? 
>>    Could I expect a price break or would I be paying more ?

I would expect FHA to be about $2K cheaper;  at least that's how much
my builder would have charged me to upgrade from FHA to FHW.  I think
copper pipe is much more expensive than the fiberglass ductwork.

Garry    

With new construction (and unlimited $), I think the best alternative would
be to put in FHW *and* ductwork for central A/C.  I think that FHW is much
better than FHA in terms of noise and dust.

I am also in a pre-construction novice mode and I was speaking to a home
inspector and expressed concern that the builder's specs state 2 x 4.
The inspector felt that the #inches of insulation and R-value is not 
nearly as important to the overall heat-loss measurement as the quality
of installation, particularly around doors, windows, outlets, etc.
Makes sense to me...  

Also, re pre-construction paranoia in general, I felt much more secure
after speaking to the home inspection company and learning what they
offer for new construction.  They offer several flavors of inspection
during the various construction phases (foundation, rough, insulation, 
finish, punchlist).  Also they will review the builders specifications
and offer advice/comments on what's good/bad/missing upfront BEFORE I
sign anything.  Makes me less nervous about being a novice.  The notesfiles
are great for learning about lots of issues and opinions, but I like the
idea of working with pro's for the real hands-on job.  If I have to put
faith somewhere, better an unbiased inspector than a looking-for-profit
builder.

    re .8
    
    >>The inspector felt that the #inches of insulation and R-value is not
    >>nearly as important to the overall heat-loss measurement as the quality
    >>of installation, particularly around doors, windows, outlets, etc.
    
    That statement is, imo, somewhat misleading.  It is true that one of
    the major sources of heat loss is from poor-fitting doors, windows,
    etc, and sloppy insulation around them.  And given a choice I'd
    probably select good-fitting doors, windows, etc and proper
    installation of a moderate amount of insulation over low quality
    doors, windows, and large amounts of poorly installed insulation.
    
    However, assuming that the quality of insulation installation
    is the same regardless of the amount, you're better off with
    more insulation than less.
    
    So go for 6".  It doesn't cost that much more, and you'll get it
    back fairly soon in terms of reduced heating costs.
    
    
    

    One way to help the pre-construction fears is to remove the profit
    seeking only motive from the builder up front.  Here at DEC we get a
    lot of training and hear a lot of noise about creating win/win
    situations, so here is what I did.  First, narrowed down the choice of
    buliders based on observed quality of completed projects and reputation
    for fair dealing.  How did I find out about fair dealing?  Iasked my
    lawyer to recommend builders his clients had been happy with in the
    past.  I talked to each builder about lots available, designs, desired
    features, etc.  I then picked out a design, put a deposit on a lot I
    liked (which none of the builders owned), brought each to the site and
    showed them the plans (this phase included 3 builders).  
    
    I then said "This is a tight budget project for me. If we negotiate a
    guaranteed project management fee up front for you, will you involve me
    in the subcontractor bid evaluation and help me get the most bang for
    the buck, rather than adding a markup to their bids as your fee?  
    Also, I'd like allowances in areas where I'm willing to take more time 
    to shop than you will for items such as windows, doors, kitchen
    cabinets, etc.  In addition, I'd like to do some of the work myself,
    and pick some subcontractors that might allow me to work with them."
    
    At this point, one contractor declined the project, one gave a price of 
    $65 sq. ft finished, and $35 sq.ft. for unfinished areas that I could
    finish myself, and the third said "No one in this business deals that
    way, but I need the work, and you need a solid house.  As long as we 
    clearly define who is responsible for what, let's give it a try."
    
    I wrote an agreement detailing the parameters and responsibilities, and
    tuned with my lawyer and his.
    
    So, I took allowances for all electrical and plumbing parts and
    installation, flooring, lighting, windows and doors, and painting.
    I selected the plumbing and electrical subs and worked for them as an
    assistant.  I negotiated the deals for the doors, windows, kitchen
    cabs, paint, flooring, lighting and plumbing fixtures.  Much of it from
    places that were going out of business or had special inventory
    reduction sales (except windows and cabinets which I wanted a warantee 
    on). I did the flooring and painting with a couple of friends who
    worked cheap because they were currently unemployed.  The contractor was 
    the general project manager, and made final selection of the excavation, 
    foundation, framing, insulation, dry wall, plastering, mason, roofing 
    and siding subs, after going over bids and options with me. The contractor
    and his partner did the finish work and cabinet installations themselves.
    
    The only glitches were the result of the electrical sub who was a bad
    time manager, and held back the project due to minor details that
    didn't pass inspections such as forgetting to use GFI outlets in the
    garage.  
    
    In summary, I stuck to things I could handle and/or could learn to do
    without compromising quality, and the contractor did the things he knew
    well.  We each got what we wanted - he got work, albeit in a somewhat
    unorthodox way, and I got a house I couldn't afford any other way.  
    
    The result was the bank's apparaiser valued the project at about 40%
    more than it cost to me build it.  Even if I hadn't done a lot of the
    work myself, the savings from the aggressive buying tactics alone would 
    have been quite substantial.  Good luck!.............Jon.............. 

    Hi George, it's been a few (hundred??) years...
    
    My experiences - from living in houses with both FHW and FHA-
    
    1.	If house is a 2 story and you use FHA/CA combination, then go with
    	TWO systems-
    	one in basement for first floor and one in attic for second floor.
    
    	(Atlanta house had that and it was GREAT and CHEAPER to run)
    
    	Zoning an FHA system is possible - have heard of them but not
    	had one.
    
    
    2.	FHW heat is more even and quieter
    
    	(This was Framingham house.)
    
    
    3.	with FHA heat, you can add humidity
    
    	(This was Atlanta house, I added one to current NJ house and
    	it made a big difference)
    
    
    4.	With FHW heat, the CA ducts can be more correctly placed - ie.
    	either in ceilings or high on walls.  FHA heat ducts should be 
    	either in floor or low on walls.
    
    	(Neighbors in Framingham and NJ who added CA).
    
    
    
    5.	Both have issue of wall space - FHW baseboards and FHA registers
    	and returns - what can you block and put what furniture where.
    
    
    These are MHO.
    
    	-Barry-
    

re: .6, Garry

> I would expect FHA to be about $2K cheaper;  at least that's how much
> my builder would have charged me to upgrade from FHA to FHW.  I think
> copper pipe is much more expensive than the fiberglass ductwork.

That's interesting. I would have thought that a FHA furnace might have been
cheaper than a boiler, and that even though copper is relatively expensive,
the labor costs for cutting/fitting/installing/securing ductwork would have
been far higher than that to sweat a few joints on copper, even given the
cost of the baseboard units. (At least I know I could sweat pipe a lot
quicker than I could run ducts. :^)

-Jack

I think you're not factoring in the cost of the baseboard for a FHW system.
That added up to about 1K for my house.



       <<< Note 4676.12 by 16BITS::DELBALSO "I (spade) my (dog face)" >>>
                              -< Live and learn >-

re: .6, Garry

> I would expect FHA to be about $2K cheaper;  at least that's how much
> my builder would have charged me to upgrade from FHA to FHW.  I think
> copper pipe is much more expensive than the fiberglass ductwork.

That's interesting. I would have thought that a FHA furnace might have been
cheaper than a boiler, and that even though copper is relatively expensive,
the labor costs for cutting/fitting/installing/securing ductwork would have
been far higher than that to sweat a few joints on copper, even given the
cost of the baseboard units. (At least I know I could sweat pipe a lot
quicker than I could run ducts. :^)

-Jack

    Hi Everyone, 
    
      My husband and I are in for the adventure of our life time.  We are
    beginning the process of building our home in Merrimack.  We are new to 
    all this and would like to get advice from those who have gone thru the
    experience.  What we are basically looking for is things to watch out
    for,  things not to forget about,  and those things that everyone seems
    to overlook.    We are subcontracting the work out ourselves and we
    are in the process of getting bids now.  
    
    We'd appreciate any suggestions.  The house size is 2900 sq ft.  
    Colonial style - 2 car garage and a walk out basement. 
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Wendy 
    
    

    Absolute Necessity #1: maintain your sense of humor.  Odds are there
    will be times when you become convinced the gods personally have it in
    for you, your new house, your marriage, your family, and everything
    else you have anything to do with.
    
    Well...they do.  It's the Cosmic Joke.  So enjoy the ride.
    

My favorite piece of advice - read (and/or watch the movie) "Mr. Blandings
Builds His Dream House".

				Steve

    
    Be certain each contractors acivities are written down on what
    he's going to do, start to finish and be sure "periodic cleanups
    plus a final is HIS resposibility."
    
    One thing I wished I had done was to put the bathroom exhaust
    fans down in the basement and ran the aluminum flex down a pipe
    chase.  Damned fans are noisy and irritating when your continuing
    a story where you left off yesterday, in "Field and Stream". :^)
    
    Fred                                    
    

   Make sure 100% of EVERYTHING!...no matter how small, is in writing!!  Take
NOTHING for granted (don't assume anything...SEE it in writing).  
  
   I found out some of this the hard way.  I was told that some of the
things I was requesting were "required by code anyway, so there's no need
to write them up".  Then I find out that certain things (as simple as hand
railings on the front steps) were omitted because they weren't required by
code!!!  They adjusted the grade so they were 1 step under the limit that
requires a railing.

  Of course...you might get a much more respectable builder than I had...but
it's best to cover your butt!


                    Jim


  P.S.  My purchase was a case of "If you buy this land we'll put a house on
        it for you".  So I had *no* say in who did any of the construction.

    
    1. Trust no one! (...but be nice about it :)
    2. inspect all work done!  (short cuts cost more later!)
    3. Do your home work(read a little about whats what!)
    4. Shop around for prices and contractors. (you get what you payfor)
    5. GET IT IN WRITING AND LEAVE NO STONE UNTURNED!!!!!
    
    Pick out a house plan (book store has lots) and work with in.
    Good luck!
    JD

    Don't put all your faith in "getting it in writing."  If you get
    a good contractor you (mostly) don't have to worry about it, and
    if you get one who's out to cheat you there are more angles than
    any contract could cover.  The contract should spell out what you
    want done so everybody knows what is expected and there are minimal
    surprises, but in the end at some point you have to trust the people 
    to do the job right.
    
    Mostly, aim for getting honest contractors...get references.
    Then check the references!  

    Take your absolute, you have figured the total cost down to the penny, 
    and add at least 30%. I have never ever seen anyone come close to their
    initial estimate.
    
    Double your most conservative time estimate on when you will be
    finished.
    
    Even if you plan to sub out all the work, plan on plenty of physical
    work that there is no sub for. An example would be clean up.
    
    Your own pick up truck is a must.
    
    Its a lot of fun. Set your expectations properly in the beginning
    and realize that you will encounter many problems, but they all
    can be solved.    

    After watching "Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House", read the book
    "House" by Tracy Kidder (yes, the same guy who wrote "Soul Of A New
    Machine"). 

If you can find "Mr Blandings" in book form, it is preferable to the movie
as it goes into more detail of what can go wrong... go wrong... go wron...

			Steve

    
    RE: .2 I was going to say the same thing....:^)
    
    I just watched it last weekend :^)))))))))
    
    JT

    
    RE: Mr. Blandings  -   I take it that I should be able to rent this 
        
    at a video store?   It shoulds like this could be real interesting.
    
    Wendy 
    

    Re: .11
    
    Yes, you can rent it.  Cary Grant, Myrna Loy, Melvyn Douglas.  It's
    available on tape and laserdisc.  The movie takes some liberties with
    the plot of the book, but the essentials are there.  Pay close
    attention to what happens when Mrs. Blandings asks for a flower 
    potting table.
    
    I think that viewing this movie at a minimum, or better, reading
    the book (available from your local library, I am sure.), should
    be mandatory for anyone contemplating building or remodelling a house.
    The book provides additional examples of what can go wrong.
    
    				Steve

    Though I cringed at the way Myrna Loy's character acted I had to
    remind myself when the movie was made and how women were treated then. 
    She's potrayed as a grown 'child' who doesn't know any better but the
    rest of it is enjoyable.  And for anyone who has outgrown their living
    space the first few scenes of them in their apartment rings too true
    :^)
    
    JT

    
    I agree with the replies that say Get Everything In Writing, 
    right to last detail. And make them sign it. Get educated, do 
    some research, do your homework, as questions, it could save you 
    alot of grief. Get a start date and a finish date, make them sign it. 
    If they won't, look for someone else. Even the most honest contractors 
    will forget verbal promises here and there.  Good contractors want to 
    do a signed contract for their protection as well.
    
    Don't pay the total bill up front! Do it in payments (usually 3) keeping 
    the last payment until the job is done to your satisfaction.     
    
    Keep your sense of humor. Things will NOT always go according to plan,
    But it's a good expierience and it'll be worth it when it's done.
    
    Good Luck,
    /Bob  

    A friend of mine told me he visited the construction site daily,
    and made a point of photographing all the open walls that contained
    any plumbing or electricity.  This saved him a lot of grief later
    when remodeling, or when adding a new outlet, as it was extremely
    easy to locate everything directly instead of requiring exploratory
    surgery.

    Lots of good suggestions so far--especially .15  We did this and have
    found the pictures to be invaluable.
    
    I've got a couple of suggestions, but understand that we were
    exceptionally pleased with the contractor and his crew.  They really
    did a fine job.  We were lucky.
    
    first, I made it a point to visit the construction site at the end of the
    work day a couple of times a week.  I usually brought a twelve pack of
    beer (they preferred Bud) and helped them consume it.  We all had a
    good time getting to know each other and the crew still stops by
    occasionally to see how things are going.
    
    I made it a point to look for things which had been done particularly
    well and complemented them.  These folks took pride in their work and 
    they appreciated the fact that I noticed it and *said something.*  As a
    result, they were far more willing to listen to the (very few)
    complaints and changes I had.
    
    Finally, we had the whole constuction gang over for a cook-out after we
    moved in.  They really seemed to appreciate seeing the finished
    project.  After all, the mason who did the chimneys had never seen the
    mantel, etc., etc., etc.
    
    Enjoy the process.  It *can* be a lot of fun.
    
    Chet

    One thing you will need is a little good luck. Also, as mentioned
    before, a sense of humor is essential. My wife and I are currently
    engaged in a similar project. We have needed (and had) good doses of
    both of the above. The big difference is we are doing all the work
    ourselves (we contracted out the foundation).
    
    As the general contractor, your biggest job is going to be scheduling
    all of the subs. This means planning. Planning is also going to be very
    important in avoiding changes too. Any changes will cost. The comment
    about photographs is a good one. We have been taking pictures for our
    own records. (They are our "baby" pictures with which we bore our
    family and friends to tears.) However, they are handy in locating items
    that get covered up.
    
    Keep your goals in sight, frequently remind yourselves what a nice
    house it's going to be, consider how much more the house will mean
    because of what you put into it and, most importantly, have fun.
    
    							Paul

    Watching Mr. Blandings is a must. Try to avoid the colorized version.
    
    Save all of your money for the rest of your life, in order to pay cash
    and avoid dealing with the bank. 
    
    I will send you something directly to clarify this point.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Linda

    We moved in 6 months from when the first shovel hit the dirt.  A key
    reason is that we worked almost exclusively with small, local subs. 
    You don't want to get the largest electrical contractor in town; your
    job will be fill-in work.  You want to be among the largest jobs each
    sub will do.  Local is key.  The electrician and plumber will need to
    make several visits at different times during the project; if they're
    local, they can stop by on the way in and out to other, out of town
    jobs.  If YOU'RE out of town, you'll end up waiting until it's
    convenient for them to make the trip.  
    
    Find out what the lead time is for each sub.  Insulation can be
    scheduled with about a week's notice; a foundation might require a
    month or two.  
    
    Ask questions.  Invite a couple who have already built their own house
    over for supper and drinks, and pick their brains.  
    
    Good Luck.  We have a house that is unique, and perfect for our needs. 
    Any compromises (and all houses are combinations of compromises) were
    ours to make.  
    
    Oh, yeah, buy a good answering machine with a date and time stamp. 
    Contractors and subs are impossible to contact directly, but we were
    very successful leaving messages on their machines with specific
    requests and suggestions.  They all would return very specific replies
    to our machine; it worked out great, and it's an incredible time saver.
    (Oh, yeah, make sure you can retrieve your messages from a remote
    phone, like from work).  
    
    I hope you are building close enough to where you work that you can
    scoot over to the site every day at lunch time.  
    
    Good Luck.
    
    Carl

    Without a general contractor you should save a minimum of 10% of
    your overall costs, but I'd be willing to bet your project
    takes longer than anticipated.
    
    Finalized house plans are extremely important!!!
    
    I assume you have all the necessary permits -- this is not trivial.
    
    If you are going to act as general contractor; try to set up a work
    breakdown structure. Your subs are dependent upon one and other and
    cannot work in a vacuum.
    
    Hope that you do not have to blast because of ledge; if you do figure
    on another thousand dollars.
    
    Do not let anyone talk you into putting your furnace into a basement
    closet.
    
    Dont' forget about perimiter drains.
    
    Before the foundation is poured make sure all footings are at four
    feet.
    
    Do you have your own civil engineer for set back surverys and
    foundation survey? If you have a septic system, have the surveyor
    shoot the septic pipe elevations at the foundation, as well as into
    and out of the septic tank.
    
    Make sure the ground has a polyurethane barrier before your foundation 
    floor is poured.
    
    If you are looking to cut costs, buy your kitchen cabinets
    at HQ.
    
    Do not neglect to plan your outdoor and basement lighting and outlets.
    
    Make sure you ask for top of the line zone valves for 
    your furnace.
    
    If you are going to have your washer and dryer on the first floor,
    at least plumb for that future potential in the basement. The cost is
    trivial.
    
    Use only the best windows, Anderson, Marvin, etc. You won't regret it.
    
    Make sure you understand what kind of external trim work you want on
    your house.
    
    Be sure to use special primer for your bathroom and kitchen ceilings.
    
    Don't forget to consider landscaping costs.
    
    If you want to save $$, do all the painting and staining yourselves.
    
    Make sure you get certificates of warranty (for any roofing and
    siding). The sub should supply these via the supply house.
    
    If you select a brand, of paint, or roofing, etc. make sure that's the
    brand you get.
    
    Have your lawyer read any agreements you intend to enter into.
    
    I re-emphasize to nail down your house plan. Re-sconsider the reasoning
    behind the location of everything in a room before you start.
    
    Do some cost per square foot analysis.....building costs can range
    from 60 to a hundred dollars a square foot.
    
    Don't forget the bank. Getting agreed to payments from the bank on
    schedule may or may not be a trivial
    task...............................................................................................
    
    
    Get to know your local building inspectors. They can be useful for the
    knowledge before hand.
    
    See if the framers will bid the roofing and siding.
    
    
    
    
    

    More thoughts;
    
    Wire for speakers while the electrician is there.  It's much harder to
    do after.  
    
    Underground sprinkler system before the grass is put in.  
    
    We're in the process of building a custom contemporary now and have
    been EXTREMELY pleased with our contractor (Martin Bros. Construction,
    in Bedford, NH).  It might be worth it to take your plans to them and
    get an estimate.
    
    Also, we did very well on kitchen cabinets/vanities at Granite State
    Kitchens in Bedford.  Large kitchen with unusual, 2 level island, all
    the bath vanities, cabinets over washer/dryer, and counter tops for 
    $5600.
    
    Best of luck, we're having a fun time (no fights), but we're not
    doing the contracting ourselves.  I've also heard that we'd only save
    $10k.  Over 30 years, that's minimal.
    
    

If you do consider wire for speakers, keep them away from the wire for AC
power, and twist them.  Even better, run metal (not plastic) conduit through
which you can easily pull wires.  (Metal is for electromagnetic shielding.)

				Steve

	
    	Cross posted in Real_estate.
    
We're in the process of having a house built.  We've decided on the design and
the layout and have met with the developer twice over the last several weeks.
We found the house in one of those house plan books but its alittle more than
we can afford.  So we're looking for ways to reduce the price but keep the basic
design.  We've come up with a few ideas -
          
	- do the driveway with gravel/pea stone and save the paving for 
	  next summer
	- rough install the central vac and ac myself
	- eliminate the corners in the foundation that were to be used 
	  for window seats and bow windows.  
	- leave the deck for me to do in 1-2 years

Any other suggestions? 

I suggested that they leave the forth bedroom unfinished but the developer
mentioned that the bank won't go for it unless its a bonus room over the
garage and it wouldn't save much.  I'll check with some banks to get a better
feel for this.  

The developer suggested the use of 2 x 8s as floor joist instead of 2 x 10s.
Any opinions on this?  I'd rather not compromise the integrity or resale value
but if it really doesn't matter I'll go with the 2 x 8s.

What about smooth ceilings as opposed to rough.  I'm told that the smooth ones
are more $$.  Does it really matter? 

Thanks,
Bill
      
    

Do not cheap out in the joists.  You'll regret it (not too much) later, as
the house will tend to sag and you'll find yourself limited in what kind
of load you can put on the floor.

Textured ceilings are a popular cheap-out.  I hate them, but many people
don't seem to mind.  The texture allows the contractor to not be so careful
in taping the joints; you can often still see the joints even with texture.

The deck you can leave off.

Do talk to a bank regarding the fourth bedroom.

			Steve

    Where is this house?  Do you really need an air conditioner?
    Perhaps you could put in the ductwork but not buy the actual
    air conditioner unit right away.
    
    Ditto on .0; don't cheap out on the joists, and I hate textured
    ceilings too.  I can't imagine they would be all that much
    cheaper...at least not enough to justify their appalling ugliness
    (personal opinion, I know....)
    
    Indeed, check on not finishing the 4th bedroom.  I'm surprised the
    contractor would suggest 2x8s vs 2x10s as a savings, but tell you
    that not finishing off a room "wouldn't save much."  The finish work
    is what gets expensive, in my experience.  Certainly more than the
    incremental cost of 2x10s over 2x8s.
    
    What are you doing for floors?  How about painting/staining the plywood 
    subfloor and living with that for a couple of years before putting down 
    carpet or whatever you ultimately plan to do?  Not elegant, but you'd save
    gobs of money.
    
    I'd try to think of things that could be postponed, rather than
    attempting to cut corners on basic construction.
    
    Do painting yourself.   
    
    Buy cheap (really cheap) light fixtures instead of the $200 chandelier
    and solid brass wall sconces you covet.  You can always change them in
    a couple of years.  You can get a plain porcelin socket to hold a
    lightbulb for a couple of bucks.  Not elegant, but it's a way to save 
    money and it's something you can easily upgrade that doesn't compromise 
    the basic integrity of the construction.

My wife and I are also in the process of building a new home and are going 
through exactly the same process it sounds like you are.  In fact, I could 
have written the base note several months ago. In the next reply, I'll list
a few of the things we did or considered to reduce costs, but first...

The most important thing you can do is to get bids from several contractors 
(I'd say at least 3) you were NOT referred to by a Realtor.  The typical 5% 
commission the Realtor gets can make the biggest difference in bids, as we 
discovered.  Even after accounting for the commision and eliminating 
unrealistic bids, they differed by as much as 10%.

This difference in price had little to do with quality. They were working 
from a spec and blueprints we supplied.  We also saw homes in various stages 
of construction built by each of them -- they were all quality custom homes. 
In fact, the builders with the very best quality tended to have the lower 
prices!

We finally went with a builder whose name we happened to get (for free!) 
from the mortgage loan officer we're using for the construction loan.  Don't 
overlook this potential source of referrals, as they tend to know who the 
good builders are (since they inspect the homes under construction several 
times and know how happy the owners are).

If you're building in southern NH, I'd strongly recommend the builder we're 
using:

    John Tenhave
    North View Homes & Development
    (603) 497-4149

John is an excellent person to work with and his attention to detail is 
amazing (I thought I was a perfectionist).  It would be worth your time to 
have him give you a tour of one of his homes under construction. I could 
probably go on and on about him... suffice to say I'm certain he builds the 
absolutely best quality homes at very reasonable prices.  

    
    I'd also support the idea of not having the builder paint
    several rooms and doing that work yourself.  Finish painting
    makes very little difference to the "value" of a house, yet
    is labor-intensive and can cost a lot.
    
    Colin
    

If they proved some extras, have them just rought it in instead of them 
putting it in. You could do it yourself later. 

For example:

1. Stairs to the attic.
2. Side Door in the garage.
3. Maybe even closet doors. 
4. Bathrooms - Just have the pipes rough it. 

I would highly suggest adding the following:

1. 200A breaker box - You will need it for a workshop and finishing up the
   basement. It's also a good resale value.
2. If your washer is not in the basement, Have them rough a drain and water
   supply in your basement for future fixtures (ie: bathroom, laundry sink,
   etc..)
3. Ask for a allowance on the lights. We pick out much better looking 
   lights then what they would have given us for about $100 more. I rather
   paid $100 not then $500 later.
4. Put in Kitchen Recess lights lights now and have them put it up in the 
   RIGHT location. Don't let the contractor tell you where you should  have
   the lights. You should be telling him (see other note for recess  lights
   location). 
 
   Good Luck,

   Dave

Here are a few of the things we did or considered to save costs:

As I noted at length in the previous reply, don't use a builder you were 
referred to by a real estate agent -- you'll pay an extra 5% if you do!

Defer features that can be added later -- decks (as you already noted), 
patios, walkways, landscaping, paved driveway, fireplaces (put the base in 
so it can be added later), special finish woodwork (such as fireplace 
mantles, built-in bookshelves, etc.), and a whirpool bath in the MBR, 
anything else that won't cost even more to add later.

Consider a pre-built "zero-clearance" wood or gas fireplace with a cultured 
stone face instead of a masonary on (price difference >5K).

Consider alternative exterior sidings.  Cedar can add several thousand over 
the cost of pine, for example.

Defer the installation of windows in the garage or walkout basement, but do 
frame for them to allow for easy installation later.

Finish the garage with sheetrock and insulation only were required by code.

Defer tile and hardwood floors using a cheaper alternative, but let the 
builder know where you'd like them so he can put in the proper sub-floor.

Reduce the number of heating zones, if practical (in a ranch, for example).

Reduce the number of foundation jogs and other irregularities.

Consider painting the exterior and/or interior yourself.

    My husband and I are also building a house (Merrimack NH).  We also
    got a bid from John Tenhave.  We were very impressed with him.  We
    decided however to go with Ray Bent from Carriage House Builders.
    So far We are extremely impressed with Ray and I would recommend him
    to anyone.    
    
    Ray has found alternative ways for us to save money.  The only place
    he refused to have us cut corners was with the framing.  I would not 
    recommend you cutting corners with the joists.  The biggest place he
    showed us were we could save was with the windows.  We originally
    wanted Anderson windows.  We compared Anderson to Norco and found that
    we could get bigger windows and pay alot less.  We felt that the
    Anderson window did not warrent the price.  
    
    The biggest place you can save money is with your allowances.  The
    only allowances that I would recommend saving on are flooring,
    fixtures, and appliences.   These things will wear out and would
    adventually need replacing.  The kitchen cabinets are very expensive to
    replace so I would recommend that you buy what you want now.  
    
    Basically look at how much it would cost now vs doing it later.  For 
    example:  preping for central vac now would be a several hundred
    dollars to do it later could cost a thousand.
    
    Wendy 
    
    
     
       
    o
    

I'll add my support to the previous replies recommending that you actually speak
to the lendor rather than taking the contractor's word that they won't "buy"
unfinished areas. Let's face it, the contractor is not trying to help you
save money, but rather trying to maximize his own income. My experience
when I went for mortgage financing on my partially completed home ten years
ago, was that one bank (now defunct) found too many things that they considered
to be "unfinished" and thus constituted an excuse for them to decline financing
(especially as they already had my non-refundable $300 "application fee" in
their pocket.) The bank I ended up doing business with (still viable) couldn't
have cared less about any of the issues the first bank raised.

-Jack

Did you consider vinyl siding? No painting cost.

    Side note:
    
    We had our house built over a year ago in Brookline NH. We found the
    best prices for appliances was Bob's in Milford. Even our builder
    bought some appliances there when his usual source fell through.
    
    Also, consider buying stock in Home Depot :-)
    
    Linda

Re: .9

In my view, the only vinyl siding which doesn't look tacky costs more than
painted wood siding.

				Steve

    Having had similar conversations with a builder recently I would
    suggest;
    
    1) Vinyl siding, if you like the looks will save you the cost of exterior
    painting though material costs may be a wash. 
    
    2) Hollow-core doors are less than half the cost of raised panel doors.
    
    3) Interior trim that is painted can use finger-jointed pine which is
    less money and less work than natural finish clear pine trim. Obviously
    avoid hardwood.
    
    4) Whole-house fans are cheaper than AC, depending on how bad you
    "need" to have AC.
    
    5) A garage under is cheaper than an attached. If you don't plan on
    having a basement workshop or playroom a garage under will save big $$
    
    6) Minimize the amount of kitchen cabinets to a livable level.
    
    7) Architectual shingles are impressive but double the cost of
    conventional 25 year fiberglass/asphalt.
    
    8) Keep the foundation as square as possible (ya, I know it's not
    exciting), minimize the foot-print of the foundation in favor of
    cantilvered floors.
    
    9)Reduce the span of floor joists. A 28' deep foundation can use a
    2x10 for example, if you went to a 30' than a 2x12" has to be used at
    an incremental cost of about 30%.
    
    10) Forego appliance allowances and bring your old appliances with you.
    
    11) Cut back on the sq-footage (blasphemy!)
    
    ~jeff 

re: .12, ~jeff

Everything made good sense to me except -

>    5) A garage under is cheaper than an attached. If you don't plan on
>    having a basement workshop or playroom a garage under will save big $$

Terrain, etc., place big limitations on the flexibility along these lines.

-Jack

I read these replys with interest because my wife and I are also considering 
building a house and cost savings will be an issue.  One thing I would be
careful NOT to do is try to save on something that can't be reversed that you 
will regret later on.  Things like no A/C, fixtures, painting and such can be 
done later.  Changing the foundation or putting a garage under rather than 
attached can't be undone.  If you really want a house with, say, an attached 
garage or really want those corners for Bay windows than maybe you should 
consider saving on something else instead.  Maybe do the garage later?

George

>Maybe do the garage later?

I've known a number of people who've done that; it's doable if you plan 
ahead.  

If later on you choose to do a detached garage (and you're handy) that's 
something you can do a lot of work on yourself, since it's not critical that 
it be built quickly.

If later you choose to do an attached, you can design it such that there is a 
room above the garage, which adds to the living space (perhaps the bedroom 
that you scrimped on earlier).

Clay

    To cut cost on the house my husband and I are building we decided to 
    frame the garage later.  We did have them pour the foundation
    for the garage because it would have cost us alot more later. 
    By putting off the framing this saved us around 8K between labor
    and materials. 
    
    
    Wendy
    

    RE: a few back regarding terrain
    
    Obviuosly, if you could pick the right terrain you might as well go
    with a site that will perk "as-is" without having to do major
    construction with fill for the septic, and avoid ledge too.
    
    A town septic system and town water would be cheaper as well, but I
    beleive you end up paying more for the building lot. SO is it cheaper
    really ? Don't know.
    
    Other options I thought of were;
    
    Side entry garages are nice for privacy but you pay more for paving a
    bigger driveway. Corner lots give you the best of both.
    
    Exterior sheathing, particle board vs. real plywood.
    
    But as one of the noters pointed out, avoid scrimping to the point
    where in five years you hate the house because your shortcuts are
    coming back to haunt you. There's a point where it isn't worth
    scrimping and you should simply not build. You have to know where that
    point is.
    
    For me, to make my design affordable, after all tolerable cost cutting
    measures, I need to go with a garage-under. I consider that an
    unacceptable option as I'm a basement person. 
    
    ~jeff

    
    I just visited a home that was said to be, "energy crafed". The builder
    said that this 3600sq ft home (in central Ma) could be heated for a 
    $200.00 per YEAR - using electric heat!!! According to him it was super 
    insulated, with a hot air exchanger that sucked that air out of the 
    baths (this house had 4 full baths) as well as the kitchen, and the 
    new air was brought in thru the other rooms. 
    
    Does this sound like it may be for real? Can you give me more info on
    the energy crafted homes. Oh, another thing he said was because of this
    certification the Fed. Gov. require the banks to give a lower rate
    mortgage, if this is true how much lower? 
    
    Other points he brought up;
    	- no gas stove in house due to CO2 
    	- Ma Ele. will do an energy audit on the house for free
        - He did not mention wood stoves or oil/gas furnaces...any ideas?
    
    I have looked thru this conference and have found no mention of this,if
    I missed it, please point me in the correct direction.
    
    Steve

    If he's worried about the CO2 produced by a stove, I'd expect the house
    to be too "tight" for any sort of combustion-based heating plant.  I'd
    also expect that there's no chimney, since it's heated electrically.
    
    I imagine that it could be done, by using unusually large amounts of
    insulation, making the house very tight, and using things like the heat
    exchanger you mentioned to extract some heat before pushing the air out
    of the house.  I'd expect the price of the house to reflect this.  I'd
    also expect that a lot of traffic (e.g., small children) or a
    preference for leaving windows open would counteract a lot of the
    "tricks" they used to keep the heat in.
    
    If it's true that the heating cost is only $200/year (or even $300),
    why bother to put in a furnace, much less mess around with a wood stove
    (particularly if you have to start by putting in some sort of chimney
    or vent, and then put in ductwork or pipes)?  And if that statement is
    far from the truth, what other "mis-information" might you be getting?
    
    Dick
    
    P.S.  My own personal taste excludes houses that can't have gas stoves;
    you should be guided by your own preferences in cooking.

    
    After all the feedback on joists I plan on going with the 2x10s.  The 
    price difference is ~$4.00 for a 12' joist.  These would be used 
    between the basement and the 1st floor and between the 1st and 2nd
    floor.  I doubt that this can add more than $1000 to the total price.  
    Right?   I assume the attic is okay with 2x8s?
                                                  
    What about particle board versus plywood for the exterior?  What are the 
    positives/negatives? 
    
    What should I expect to pay for an oak staircase versus the standard
    plywood/rug stairs?    
    
    By the way, this is part of a 6 lot cul-de-sac off of Murphy Road in
    Hudson, Ma.  All the lots are 2-4 acres with lots of wood and privacy.
    Public water and private sewage.  The developer is Snow Development, 
    Waltham, Ma and the builder is Curt Plante. Curt built Cranbery Lane on 
    Parmenter St in Hudson.  Any experiences with these people?  
                                                         
    
    Thanks,
    Bill
                                                         
                                                  

    
             
    If you do decide to use it, don't skimp on the siding, paint, rainwater
    goods, flashing or grading, and use tyvek housewrap instead of building
    paper.  :-)
    
    Personally, I'd use PT ply and go for cheaper sawn white pine siding,
    painting the siding back and front.  (instead of Cedar shingles or Cedar
    lap).  espescially if you can save labor cost by painting the siding
    yourself before it is installed.
    
    If you plan to live there for a long time, I think it's better to put
    money into structural integrity - personal opinion.
    
    Colin

The latest issue of Fine Homebuilding is their "Annual Homes" issue.  One of the
articles is about just such a home: it has 12" of blown-in fiberglas wrapped
around the framing on the outside, air-to-air heat exchanger, etc.  There is no
heating system, other than a small wood-burning stove, which they only use part
of the time.

You might be able to pick this magazine up at some lumber yards if you can't find
it in bookstores.

-Chris Allen

    Don't know if this will help BUT.
    
    When I was looking for a home in Derry N.H. around 1983 there was
    a contractor building a delevelopement off Windham Road.
    
    He stated the same thing that it would only cost 50 dollars per
    month to heat in the dead of winter, and he was willing and did back 
    it up in writing. that if your heating bill was over 50 dollars he would
    pay the difference. 
    
    These houses were nice !!!!!!!!   and at the time ran around 130k
    for 1/2 a duplex
    
    They were air tight with 6" insulation on outside walls they used
    heat exchange pumps (cost was supposed to be about 3 dollars per
    month to run these) .
    
    For heat they used electric celling panels.
    
                    
    Don

    
    Last edition of popular science has an article about the national
    program in Canada too.
    
   C
    

   While the heating costs may be very cheap, aren't they running some
   risk building houses that are airtight?  I mean, some folks are a
   little concerned about radon buildup which would require special
   venting with a house like this, right?  Also, what about equalizing
   moisture content in the air?  Wouldn't there be a big risk of moisture
   damage (and later insect damage) if moisture levels weren't very
   carefully monitored and controlled?
   
   Just wondering,
   
   - Tom

>>          <<< Note 5249.5 by NOTAPC::PEACOCK "Freedom is not free!" >>>
>>                       -< Is there a down side to this? >-

I personally wouldn't want a house this air tight.  You could end up with
what some people call "sick house" or "sick building" syndrome from all
that stale ale.  Chemical fumes leaching from carpeting, paint, etc. could
build up in the house.

Give me some fresh air and I'll gladly pay to heat it.

Garry

    The new trend to achieve as airtight a home as possible HAS shown to
    create a few problems.I read quite a bit on the subject when I was planning on
    purchasing a similar home a few years back... random points that I
    recall were:
    	
    	- backdrafting concerns when any combustive systems were used.
    	- pollutant buildup due to a lack of air exchange 
    
    
     Any combustion-based heating systems must be carefully installed and 
    managed... preferably provided with an external air source. 
    
    There has also been a great deal of argument regarding the
    health aspects of airtight homes. If radon were present an airtight home 
    with radon would need an active slab vent system. This would not compromise
    the airtightness unless cracks or opened in the slab... in which case the 
    system would likely backdraft any combustive heating system that DIDN'T
    have an outside air source. Generally, active-system installers provide
    an external air source to the combustive furnace just as a safety
    measure these days.
    
    Other health concerns are buildup of airborne particles and pollutants
    that would otherwise be minimized by the air exchange in a "draftier"
    house. Studies were cited that showed the measure of a selected few
    pollutants were many times higher in airtight homes than in traditional
    homes... suggestions included leaving windows open a crack and possibly
    including air exchangers and filtration systems (which all kind of go
    against the whole idea of airtight homes).
    
    I think they are perfectly viable in certain climates... but the kinks
    would have to be worked out a bit more before I bought one in New
    England. Perhaps things have changed for the better since I was looking
    into it...
    
    								- Mac

    As a data point, we have friends with an air tight house.  We live in a
    1760/1820/1950/1960 house, not very tight at all.
    
    The kids loose two to three times as much school to sickness as ours
    do, and the adult/work ration is about the same (2-3* us).
    
    Could be they tend to get things, but having the house air tight would
    probably contain the germs as well as the air.
    
    

	    A requirement (even if it's `not' code) with an airtight house
	is to install a heat exchanger... which was mentioned.  The warm air
	inside the house is replaced with the (cold) fresh air outside the 
	house.  The exhausted air transfers it's heat to the incoming air.
	I think there is supposed a loss of less than 5%.
	    I would expect this would provide more fresh air than the ave-
	rage non-airtight, yet very well buttoned up `normal' house.

					Tim

    
    They've also tried bringing outside air directly to the furnace via a
    long plastic pipe buried below the frost line.  But this approach has
    the drawback of potentially allowing mold to grow in the pipe, which
    can cause all sorts of respiratory problems.
    
    JP

    
    I rented a place in Nashua that was built according to some
    energy conservation spec - I think it was a "medallion"
    program or some such.   Aspects of the design were things like:
    
    Low air infiltration, (tight, double-glazed casements), no windows
    on the north and lots on the south aspect.  Aesthetically not
    very pleasing, but efficient.
    
    "Airlocks" at the front door and the garage entrance.
    
    Solar hot water, gas FHA with outside air inlet and A/C
    
    Energy costs averaged $60 per month @ 1989/90 prices, but were as low
    as $20 in the summer when all water was from the 80 gal solar tank.
    
    We didn't notice any air quality problems, mainly because the rapid
    warm-up time allowed us to ventilate the house at least once a day even
    in the colder months.  We did this because the place often seemed too
    humid inside and the only alternative was to run the A/C.
    
    Whilw we were there, the development management re-sided all the houses
    in vinyl right over the existing t&g pine siding.  This was because
    they were having to repaint too frequently and the re-siding worked out
    much cheaper.  I suspect that the paint failure was somehow related to
    the high humidity inside.
    
    Colin
                             

    
    Thanks for the input everyone, many good points brought up. Messages
    jogged my memory,
    
    	- under the foundation piping was used to vent radon thru the roof
    
    	- plywood was a special grade with low formaldehyde
    
    	- no w-w carpeting due to outgassing 
    
    must be kinda rough after a cabbage or baked beans supper in a house
    like that.
    
    Steve 

    
    Take away his key pad!!!
    
    Heat loss is one thing.  But keeping fresh air out is another.
    I really dont think your gaining much with an air tight house.
    For the extra cost of keeping the air "safe" in the house.  It
    might be worth buying extra btu's.
    
    Gee Steve.  I've only used a half tank of oil this year to heat
    my house.  and close to half of that was used for tractor fuel.
    24 x 50 ranch.......
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Now where did I leave the matches for the wood stove.......... 

Write to

	Energy Mines and Resources
	R2000 Program Information
	Booth St.
	Ottawa
	Ontario
	Canada

and ask for information about the R2000 program.

Also, for a course, and videos about "R2000, The Better Built House"

	TVOntario
	Toronto
	Ontario
	Canada

Also, ask for information about Saskatchewan's Enery Efficient Housing
Program ... write to

	Information Services
	Government of Saskatchewan
	Regina
	Saskatchewan
	Canada
	

Stuart

Here what I know about Energy Crafted Homes. Its a program to promote
energy efficiency in new home construction. The homes they certify are very
Energy efficient and very healthy to live. I was building when the program was
just starting out and was about 4 months ahead of the their trained
inspectors. I did build to their specs and am very happy both the heat load
requirements and the air quality during the heating season. Here's what I know
about both Energy Crafted Homes and Air to Air Heat Exchangers.

Air to Air Heat Exchangers are needed to do away with the problems mentioned
previous replys. They exhaust stale/polluted/moisture laden air from close to
the source, mainly the kitchen and baths. This warm stale air is brought into
close contact with fresh cold outside air, without the gases mixing. The
warmed fresh air is distributed to the rest of the rooms in the house. Good
exchangers are in the low to mid 90% efficiency range and operate on 2-300
watts.

The units are sized to replace up to a maximum of the full volume of air in the
house per hour on the highest setting. This feature works great when
somethings burnt or when there's a house full of people. I think state codes
(MA) require 1/2 the house volume per hour for tight houses. Some have
humidistats to control the humidity levels as well, which kick on full speed
when needed. This is set somewhere about 40% or just below the point where condensation forms on the
windows.

In addition to supplying fresh air during the heating season, most can be
fitted with and electrostatic filter which can remove pollen and dust from the
air and can provide relief to people with allergies. As well as remove all the
out gassing of the the building materials,furniture,carpets used in a new home.
Most all of these drop to acceptable level within the first six months. Another
important feature to look for is a defrost mode. Without one the system would
become useless in an extended cold snap.

An air changer is an excellent way to remove radon laden air from the
basement and replace the air with minimum heat loss. A small system like this
would cost ~$1500 installed and a whole house system ~$3K. This is one of the
more costly way to deal with radon.

The critical part is the system layout and then balancing the pressure in the
system. This is where The Energy Crafted Home Certification comes into play.
These builders are certified as are the houses they build. The construction
process is inspected at key phases. Foundation insulation, basement slab vapor
barriers, wall and roof insulation and vapor barriers to name just some of the
inspection items. During the final test phase they conduct a leak test by
closing up the house and attaching a huge fan to a door (The Old Blower Door
Test) and measure the leakage. The system is inspected to ensure it's working
properly as well.

Any combustion appliance needs is own external air supply piped to the local
area of the unit and regulated with a blast gate. I heat with coal and
cook with a gas stove. Both of these appliances and the water heater have
there own combustion air source. There's an exhaust return to the air changer
within 5 FT of the stove and there are no problems with this setup. It return
is the largest of the lines in the system.

As for lower rate loans, I don't know. At the time this was started, Spring of
1990, by a group of New England Utility companies. They figured it was cheaper
to teach builder how to build energy efficient houses rather than build more
Nukes. This when they were starting to recover from the sticker shock of
Seabrook. They were offering a $2K bonus to the builders for each house that
successfully passed all the inspections. This was suppose to help offset the
higher building costs and greatly reduce the energy used over the life of the
new building. Back then it was ~$400 for a 3 day coarse to be certified for the
air changer design and installation, the builders needed another 5 day course.
Of coarse you needed to pass a competency test to get certified.

I'd want to know how many certified homes the builder has to date, to be sure
he's got the requirements down right. But if the house is certified that could
be enough, there are strict guidelines for certification. And get some kind of
guarantee on the $200 annual heating costs, that sounds alittle low for a 3600
SQ FT house with electric heat. I bet the best, they'll do is spilt the cost
overrun of the first years heating bill. Still I'd bet they don't miss by more
than 2X.

There's no reason tight houses can't be healthy houses,

/Jim


How do know a house is tight?


Where you close the door, your ear POP ;>)

The modern high efficiency home's definition of Air Tight means that the
home has controlled ventilation, usually through an air to air
heat exchanger.  It should be air tight to passive uncontrolled sources.
There should be no problems of poor ventilation, unless the ventilation system
was underdesigned or not working properly.  Moreover, if designed properly
there should be no problems of moisture either.

Often the ventilation system is linked to the forced air heating system, and
unless set up properly, the heat exchange system usually does not work
properly.  Another common problem is closed doors with central air return
systems ... It usually means that sufficient air is not pulled from some
rooms.

I would always set up a ventilation system separate from the heating system,
with ventilation intake and outlet vents in each room to ensure good
ventilation.

The problem described earlier about air tight homes being highly humid
inside and peeling paint outside, the two problems are not directly related.
The high interior humidity occurs because of insufficient ventilation, and
no passive air leaks.  The peeling paint is usually due to poor external
wall design .. like using wet wood or poor roof drainage or insufficient
ventilation behind the clapboards in front of an air barrier.  Tje moisture
causing peeling clapboards should not have been coming from inside, because
that was being contained in the house!

Stuart

    Re .15
    
    Jim,
    
    	Is the house that you live in now a energy crafted home? What do
    you spend on the heating / venting per year. 
    
    I'm wondering if all the extra work required for an e.c.h. is made up
    in heating costs. One thing that my wife and I want is a woodburning
    kitchen cook stove with possably an other stove in the cellar. Will
    fresh air intakes for the stoves have to be plumbed as well? We are
    looking at timber framed houses with streesed skin panels that have 4"
    of poly(something) foam. I'm wondering if the panels will cut the
    heating costs enough causing the additional cost of e.c.h. to outweigh
    the benifits.
    
    Steve B

re .17:

Why do you want a woodburning cook stove?

    re: .18
    
    Well, *I'd* like one so I could stick my feet in the oven after
    coming in from shoveling snow (memories of the Queen Atlantic
    stove at my grandfather's farm!), and they make a great place 
    to dry mittens.  But maybe .17 has other reasons.
    

    
    I like the woodburning kitchen cookstove cuz 
    
    1. I just like the looks of it
    
    2. think it adds character to the house 
    
    3. we wanted a wood burning stove in the kitchen anyways
    
    4. in case of power failure we can still be warm AND eat (the house
       will be on top of a hill with a 1000'+ driveway.
    
    5. good place to thaw out after being outside after LOOONG New England
       winters...expecially after clearing the driveway of snow.
    
    and most importantly ...
    
    5. my wife like them, too. 
    
    
    Steve B

RE:17

I was ahead of the program when I got started. I adopted most of their building
specs. R25 foundation above grade, R28 walls, R40 roof, never did get the air
leakage test done, I think it cost ~$180.

Outside air is piped to the appliance. I used insulated 6" flex duct. The
coal stove and water heater share one and the cook stove has one. The air
changers exhaust and fresh air supply also have their own.

This house ran this heating season on ~1 1/3 tons of coal and 1 1/2 cords
of wood. The air changer and coal stove run from mid November to mid March. The
air changer is on a timer to run 18 hours a day, I think the low setting is
~200 Watts. The kitchen stove is a combination wood/gas and is fired up in the
evenings during the winter and in the morning when needed in the spring and
fall. The's backup electric baseboard for the bank's sake, but does see usage
during winter vacations. There's a sunroom  and lots of south facing  glass,
30-40% of the heating is provided by solar gain.

This building is a timberframe with stress skin panels. It's 3300 S.F.
excluding the full basement which is heated. It's tough to estimate the
additional costs for the higher R values. But I'd guess at ~$5K, this includes
higher R values, low E glass and the air changer. This may seem high and
probably is if you plan to stay in  the house short term, but over the life of
the building it's a big win. This is what makes it so appealing to the
utilities. I designed it and cut the frame and plan on living there for the
duration, so I went with energy conservation wherever is made sense.

If you plan to go timber frame, these added costs are small to begin with. This
type house is very expensive, most things are custom. Plumbing and wiring are
much tougher than a stick build house. Planning is more critical than usual.
An Energy Crafted House certificate may cost you more but you'll be sure
everything is installed properly and operates as planed. For instance, if the
panels are installed poorly the higher materials cost is wasted.

Hope this helps,


/Jim

    
    1.  You can't beat apple pies done in that kind of oven.
    
    2.  Toast, either just thrown on top of a lid or by removing
        a lid and having the bread inside one of those gizmos used
        at a campfire.  My favorite is polish rye bread almost
        black on both sides (only takes seconds leaving the inside
        soft'n warm)  then pouring melted butter on top.  
    
    3.  And you can always throw a few horse chestnuts in the fire
        when the wife ain't looking. They pop and rattle the covers
        and the wife.  :^)    (Used to do that to Gramma...)
    
    Fred

So you're not going to use a woodburning stove for day-to-day cooking.
I find it hard to imagine that someone would want to do *that*.

    
    Mus' be a "city-slikker"    :^)
    
    Fred

    
    re: .23 + .24
    
    I'm sure we'll be using it durning the fall, winter, and early spring.
    I'ld not look forward doing canning during the summer on one, busy
    enough trying to get all the canning done let alone trying to feed a fire
    with wood.
    
    Steve

    
    Geeeee, I have a truck load or real dry wood that
    would go nice in that stove.........
    
    JD
    

    My $.02 worth .....
    
    I find it harder and harder to believe anyone would want to bring
    in "fire wood" .
    
    Cause inside that wood are critters.
    
    Wood eating critters ...
    
    Like termites and carpenter ants and centapeeds and yucky stuff
    like that.
    
    and most of all I can't for the life of me stop wondering why people
    stack "fire wood" in the basement.
    
    Unless there is a new type of "fire wood" out there that dosen't
    have house eating bugs. 
    
    ah I don't think so.
    
    My $.02 and my hang up
    
    Carry on
    Don
           

I don't think centipedes eat wood.

>    I find it harder and harder to believe anyone would want to bring
>    in "fire wood" .

	We do it, and I don't see any problem with it.

	Why do we keep wood in the basement? Well...

	1) It's dry when we want it (our holder is good for ~2 weeks of
	fires)

	2) We're dry when we get it

	Any house-eating critters in the wood are just as likely to travel
	the distance along the ground outside as they are up the walls
	inside. My basement is concrete, after all. 

	Now, I wouldn't stack the firewood directly against my wood
	clapboard siding...

	Roy

    re:Don
    Welll, you have to take the good with the bad and hope
    you come out ahead!
    
    Yes, you do have some guest when the wood comes in after
    sleeping outside for a year.  A few moths and other insects.
    But its the wise man would check he's wood first.  Most of tthe
    time you can see if anyone is living in the wood or now.  Then 
    you leave that one out side or put it in the stove first and cook
    the little suckers! :)  Then again a quick spray with the Raid
    seems to keep things incheck.......
    
    JD
    
    

    Given the nature of the "lifestyle" of termites and carpenter ants, it
    doesn't seem that likely to me that individuals in logs which are
    temporarily stored in or next to the house waiting to be burned would
    cause an infestation (annoyance if they get out, yes). Both require
    nests with a resident queen; termite colonies are underground. The
    individuals you find aren't that likely to be capable of starting a
    nest. I eyeball logs before I bring them in to look for evidence of
    significant burrowing, and burn those right away.

    A long-term woodpile in or right next to the house is another matter, of
    course (it's a fair assumption that somewhere underneath any long-term
    woodpile is a termite colony).

    This is the first year that I have used a woodshed to store my wood
    in. Its built along side of my garage.
    
    Having *dry* wood available for the stove and fireplace is just about
    "heaven on earth" for this winter.
    
    Marc H.

RE:                   <<< Note 5249.30 by ELWOOD::DYMON >>>
     
    >>Then again a quick spray with the Raid
    >>seems to keep things incheck.......
    
     ...then there's the consideration of whether or not you want the
     combustion fumes from the Raid in your house on a regular basis.

                                     Greg

    Re: Greg,
    
    The can  last the whole season with some left over for summer.
    The wood get a quick dusting.  you can smell it anywhere except
    the are you just sprayed and only for a little while.  If you
    must, there is more Hair Spray introdused into the air than anything
    else!!!!!!
    
    JD

    re last one, or so
    
    The last builder I talked to recommended against oak stairs. He said
    they are too slippery in stocking feet. After he watched his daughter
    slide down them he has been installing carpeting in all but his high
    end homes.
    
    ~jeff

    Thanks again for all the input.
    
    Regarding the exterior sheathing; the spec calls for plywood so we're
    all set on that.
    
    We like the looks of the open two-story foyer with the hardwood stairs
    and railings.  Any thoughts on the pros/cons of going with a rug runner
    on the stairs?  Also, is there any type of hardwood recommended over
    others?  We have to do some window shopping on this.
    
    Any new ideas on sound proofing?  For example the upstairs baths have
    common walls with the cathedraled family room and I'd like to minimize
    any noise. I reviewed the sound proofing notes and I'm planning on 
    checking out the z-channels.  
    
    This started out as cost-cutting I think .....

    There was a note recently added in here someplace commenting on
    how slippery (and potentially dangerous) bare wood stairs can
    be, especially in stocking feet, that carpet is safer.  
    
    On the other hand, carpet is more of a hassle to keep clean.
    
    Personally, I like the look of bare wood stairs.
    
    As far as choice of wood goes, the "standard" hardwood choices from a
    lumberyard seem to be red oak and beech.  I think you can also get
    poplar or yellow pine treads if you are going to paint them or aren't
    after such an elegant hardwood look.
    
    We just got custom-made hickory stair treads (see note 403.*, or
    something like that).  They were about $21 each, not counting the
    cost of the carpenter's time to fit and install them.  Judging by
    their feel, and hickory's reputation, I expect their durability to
    be outstanding.  Hickory has extreme color and grain variation
    though, so if you're looking for a "formal" look, hickory isn't the
    answer. 
    
    We got hickory mostly to get something different and out of the
    ordinary, which it certainly is.  As a practical matter, the
    standard offerings of oak or beech are perfectly good.  Go to a
    lumberyard, take a look, and see which you prefer.  (Or if you're
    a contrary sort, get custom treads the way we did.)

    
    I agree with Steve and would also point out that you can install a
    carpet "runner" down the center of hardwood stairs (with varying levels
    of expense and damage to the hardwood).
    
    JP

    I've got hardwood stairs with a rug runner - looks good.  
    
    			Steve

    Yeah, but eventually the rug runner grows up and goes off to college,
    right? 

    Re: .25
    
    I can only hope...
    
    		Steve

  On a episode of Hometime they showed a staircase that had hardwood 'caps'
on the stairs.  If I remember correctly it was a pine staircase with a carpet
down the middle.  Then they added the oak caps beside the carpet:


           -----~~~~~~~~~~-----   front view (tread at eye level)
             ^     ^        ^
             |     |        |
        hardwood   |     hardwood
                   |
                carpet


  This was suppose to be cheaper than all hardwood stairs and looked just as
good.

    
    re: "Caps"
    
    	Eeyup. Home Depot sells the materials for this.
    
    							- Mac

    re: .27
    
    I wonder how much this would really save.  The incremental difference
    between the cost of a few square feet of pine and the equivalent amount
    of hardwood just isn't all that great, and if a carpenter puts the
    stairs together the labor cost is going to pretty much bury the 
    materials cost anyway.  It would no doubt save *something*, but
    before you go that route, see what full hardwood treads would cost.

    From what I've been told, the real cost to the hardwood stairs/railings
    option is in the railings (read - builders profit).  As in, "Oh, you 
    want custom hardwood balisters and railings?"

    Even though they are, 

    	"really trying to get you the house that you want"

    and,  

    	"we've already reduced the price to the bare bones to get it to
    	 what you can afford" 

    why do I feel like they aren't being very flexible on the bottom line
    and there is too much profit in there?  Is this a common feeling for
    the buyer of new construction?   If there were only a vacant house lot 
    in this area of town I'd be in the sub-contracting business in a minute!!! 

    Regarding the "rug runners"; If it weren't for the rug rats eventually
    going off to college this note entry, "Cost cutting in new
    construction?", would never have taken its first breath!
       
    

    
    A few other questions -
    
    	- how about eliminating the fireplace in the family room?
    	  I would still need the chimney but what could I save by eliminating 
    	  the fireplace?  On the other hand is a fireplace a real selling 
    	  feature?  I really don't plan on adding a fireplace insert and 
    	  burning wood (at least until I see my first gas bill) but I don't 
    	  want to hurt myself when it comes to selling time.
     
    	  We had a free-standing airtight stove in our previous house and 
    	  it looked real sharp (stove stack going up through the cathedral
    	  ceiling), was a selling feature and did a great job on heating 
    	  the house.  This may be a future if we eliminate the fireplace. 
                                                     
    	- If I keep the fireplace what should I expect to pay for an 
    	  additional flue in the chimney for a wood stove in the basement?  
    	  I assume the chimney will have two flues; one for the gas boiler 
    	  and one for the fireplace.  
                                                   
    	- has anyone had experience with sound proofing interior walls in
    	  new construction?  
    
    Thanks
    
    

                                                   
>    	- has anyone had experience with sound proofing interior walls in
>    	  new construction?  
    

	We just moved into our new home 2 weeks ago. One of the things
	that bugged me about our previous home, was listening to the
	washer & dryer which was on the first floor. In our new house,
	I considered putting them in the basement just for noise reasons.
	The builder told me not to worry about noise. The washer & dryer
	are in the first floor bath, behind bifolds. The builder stuffed
	6" insulation in all of the bath walls. With the bifolds close,
	and the bath door closed, the washer & dryer can not be heard.    
	And I'm a happy camper. This is a VERY cheap solution to at least
	one noise problem.

	Ken

We are building our own home.  We've been in the first floor for about two
years, and are just finishing the second floor.  My husband did as .32 suggests:
put insulation in the bathroom walls.  This keeps the noise of the shower, etc,
from traveling to the rooms quite effectively.

Elaine

    There's some data on this in one of my books:
    
    Using insulation has a STC (sound transission class) rating of 49
    but only if you uses a double wall with offset studs.  (The electrician
    will love this too).   In new construction you can underlay the gypsum
    board with sound-deadening .5" laminated fiberboard mounted on
    flexible clips.  This has an STC rating of 52, which is the highest.
    
    Even if you don't bother with the clips, the fiberboard has a higher
    sound deadening effect than insulation when nailed directly to
    the wall and covered with wallboard.  STC of 46.  Works out about the
    same cost.
    
    Colin
    

    I am remodeling my entire house, [top to bottom].  I have insulated all
    the interior with 3.5" insulation.  With 2 small children it is quite
    enjoyable not hearing the noise from there play room.  I have also been
    able to work on the house in the evening hours without disturbing their
    rest.  
    
    I would have this done if I were buying a new house - or when I finish
    this one and the WIFE says 'time to move'...
    
    Doug  
    
    My $.02 worth

Here is a summary of the article I mentioned in .2.  The article is from the
Spring 1994 issue of Fine Homebuilding, its "Annual Issue on Houses".

A 2,600 square foot, two story house, built in southern Vermont.  The attic
space is finished.  This area of Vermont has 8,000 heating degree days/year.
This house is superinsulated and air tight.  There is an air-to-air heat
exchanger and a small woodstove.

Quoting from the article:

"The guiding principle was to separate insulation and structural functions by
building two separate walls and letting each of them do one job properly.  We
started with a 2x4 wall built with 16-in o.c. stud framing.  The 2x4s were
sheathed with 1/2 in. plywood, just as they would be in a a standard house.
Subs could then wire, plumb and duct as needed.  There is no insulation or vapor
barrier in this wall; those go elsewhere."

The "elsewhere" is outside this wall.  They attached the plastic vapor barrier
around the entire outside of the sheathing.  Then they attached trusses to the
outside of the house (walls and roof) and sheathed over that too, creating the
2nd of the two outside walls.  These trusses created a 1-foot thick space, which
they filled with blown-in fiberglas insulation.  In effect, the entire outside
of the house, walls and roof, is covered with a 1-foot thick blanket of
insulation - there are no breaks where the studs are or between floors, etc.

The truss system was developed 10 years ago by a Canadian builder John Larsen.
It's a series of lightweight racks that hold large amounts of insulation.
There's more about this system in Fine Homebuilding #20.

They achieved R-50 in the walls, and R-58 & R-60 in the roof (thicker trusses).
The owners have set the air-to-air heat exchanger to .25 air changes/hour, which
they feel comfortable with.  Fresh air must be piped directly to each appliance
that needs it: woodstove, gas dryer and gas water heater.

Much of the heat is provided by people, lights and appliances.  The woodstove
isn't needed on sunny days.  Inside temps during the winter are between 68 and
70 degrees.  Total annual heating bill is $225.

The cost to build this house was $48 sq/ft, in 1991.

Even if the house were left vacant, the temp stays above freezing.  The first
winter the house was unoccupied and the house stayed about 40 degrees all winter
long, even when outside temps went down to -20.  They measured this by means of
a temperature sensor in the house that could be checked by telephone.

-Chris

    
    I am planning an addition this spring. (3 kids and one on the way
    makes for a small house). The addition will be a 2 car garage with 
    bedrooms and 1 small bathroom upstairs. It will be built pretty
    much standalone with the exception of two hallways joining the house.
    I need the foundation and exterior shell and roof done. The rest I
    can "handle".
    	My main question is before calling contractors for estimates
    what are the basic things I should ask/look for ie:
    Insurance, estimates in writing?, references, time to complete....
    I've looked around a bit in here for answers but couldn't find
    many. If this note already exists I apologize and point me to it.
    Thanks,
    	Bob
    

    see 2000.*
    

The previous two repliers seem to have read only the title of the basenote,
not the body of it.

> The previous two repliers seem to have read only the title of the basenote,
> not the body of it.

	I read it before posting .1 and stand by it.  .0 obviously did
	not look too hard.  Here's some more relevant topics .....

   286  NUWAVE::SUNG          4-AUG-1986    19  Contractor's License
  1289  EPOCH::JOHNSON        2-JUL-1987     5  Small contractor problem
  1312  BEING::WEISS         13-JUL-1987    74  Should we share bad contractor experiences?
  1479  MIZZEN::DEMERS        2-SEP-1987    19  help with legal pursuit of contractor
  2000  SERENA::WEISS        19-FEB-1990     1  Contractor's Reference Area
  2012  JOET::WEISS          22-FEB-1988   121  General Contractors
  2034  JOET::WEISS          22-FEB-1988    49  Misc contractors - if it won't fit anywhere else
  2255  FLIPIT::PHILPOTT     28-APR-1988    25  contractors and insurance, etc?
  2364  SVCRUS::KROLL         4-JUN-1988     2  How to get a contractor's license?
  2647  TOKLAS::FELDMAN      22-SEP-1988    37  Dealing with Contractors 101
  3168  BOSTON::SWIST        18-APR-1989     0  Interpreting subcontractor/supplier language
  3584  ERLANG::ARTSY        13-NOV-1989     1  Negotiating with contractors for mutual benefit/protection?
  3697  WMOIS::D_SPENCER     31-JAN-1990    12  Contractor didn't pay subs-what's a mechanic's lein?
  3920  CSSE::BRISTER         7-AUG-1990    10  Do contractors expect a "NO" call.
  4458  JPS1::VONHALLE        9-DEC-1991    12  Contractor experience question
  4758  ASABET::DONAHUE       8-OCT-1992     1  Insured VS Unsured Contractors

    GO BUY A BIGGER HOUSE