Conference 7.286::home_work

    About a year and a half ago I had an old Steam system repalced,
    and it had LOTS of asbestos coated things.
    
    The man (actually a family business) had everything gone in about
    a day. At the time a lot of other things were going on (like getting
    the stuff out before the concrete came), but during the following
    weeks I did ask about the stuff. (This was in Manchester NH) The
    scrap material was bagged (looked like glad trash bags to me) and
    taken to the dump. That was all the folks (his story) wanted done,
    and he related a story of a job where he had to comply with federal
    law. (soak it down, put in a bag, inside a bag , label it... and
    I believe take it to a special dump.
    
    The same house has asbestos shingles (try finding a vendor to repair
    those!) Glad I moved.
    
    Good luck finding a vendor, I think I'd leave the stuff alone.
    
    Tom

    You might try calling the Asbestos HotLine at Tufts University
    to get information on methods and vendors.  
    
    I'm surprised that they don't wet it down before removing it - the
    dust is so fine that I understand the first thing to do is wet
    it down before removal.
    
    I called the Hotline and they sent me some good information including
    questions to ask the  potential remover.
    
    Sue
    

    Can you post the phone number here to the Hotline?
    

    ASBESTOS HOTLINE at Tufts University:  381-3531
    

    I have asbestos covered steam pipes.I would like to seal the stuff
    before it deteriorates any more.Any ideas ?
    
    Mike

Re: .5

Think twice.  If you really want them sealed well, it will cost quite a
bit (about the cost of removing the stuff).  And it is getting common
today for buyers to require the removal of asbestos before they will buy
a house.  So you may pay to seal it only to have to remove the stuff
later. 

Alex

   If this topic belongs in another note, I apologize.  Feel free to move
it if you feel it is necessary.

   I'd like to take a small survey regarding the disposal of asbestos from 
the household.  I have a friend who is having his furnace replaced this week.
He has an old furnace that is covered with asbestos.

   He's been quoted a price of $800 to remove the asbestos by a licensed 
contractor.  My friend insists that this is crazy and he can do it himself.
He is also aware of the fact that it is illegal.  He has had the opportunity 
to watch how the asbestos removal contractors work where he is employed, and 
feels that he can do as good a job if not better.

   I admit that $800 is a ridiculous price, but then again, you can't put a 
price on health.  There is also a 3-year old living in the home.  

   My intention here is to get some opinions from others who may have gone
through similar situations, or simply have a better understanding about 
asbestos.  I would then have a wider range of opinions than just my own.

   Please state your opinions, one way or the other.  Thanks.

					Steve

    Once he removes the asbestos what is he going to do with it?  Dump
    it in a schoolyard or some such "easy" disposal solution?
    
    The best thing you can do with asbestos is NOT stir it up.  Will
    he have equipment to prevent the asbestos dust from going into the
    atmosphere and contaminating the living area?  I guess everyone
    could wear gas masks for a while when in the house.  The best thing
    he could do would be remove the furnace in one piece and dispose
    of it.  Where?  He could just leave the furnace in place and put
    the new one next to it.  Of course, who wants an old furnace in
    the basement?

    
    Asbestos is a ridiculous problem for most home owners. I am
    convinced that I could remove the asbestos in my basement without
    harming myself.  I would by a good filter mask, rent a good air
    filterer, and remove it the way the professionals do - they first
    soak the asbestos with water (a surfactant? is usually added to
    the water to help the asbestos absorb it).  I certainly wouln't
    suggest the average homeowner try this, though.  I would think
    that most homeowners would be better off trying to cover it
    (a mask is still I good idea here).
    
    The biggest problem is what to do with the asbestos once it is
    removed.  Yes, asbestos is classified as hazardous waste, and that
    makes it difficult to dispose of legally.  The most aggravating
    thing is that asbestos is really not hazardous if it is buried,
    unlike many chemicals which can pollute the ground water.
    Unfortunately, I don't believe the EPA distinguishes between the
    different types of hazardous wastes. 
    
    I understand that MASSave (the energy people) covers asbestos
    insulation removal in their no interest loan program, so this
    may be an option.
    

    	I had a friend who removed his own asbestos pipe insulation.
    He took the proper precautions, bought masks and gloves and disposed
    of the material in a responsible fashion.  He bought special plastic
    bags made for asbestos disposal then put them in his truck and took
    them to a certified hazardous waste handler.  He got lots of
    information from the Tufts University Asbestos Hot Line.  
    	Asbestos is serious stuff, but I would learn how and remove
    it myself.  It is probably a good idea to get rid of this stuff
    now before the state and the feds make the regulations tougher.
    I would not take a job removing asbestos for a living no matter
    what the pay or precautions.  However I feel you could DIY once
    or twice without getting asbestoses.  
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    					

    How do you find out if you have asbestos in your house to begin
    with? What does it look like? Where would it be found?
    

    Where is it?  One place I remember seeing it was covering the hot
    water pipes in the basement coming from the old boiler.  It was
    about 1/2" to 5/8" thick and covered with a heavy white paper. 
    Picture a 'sleeve' if you will that covered the old 1" iron heating
    pipes.  I don't believe they've used this on installations in a
    long time and am not aware whether it was ever used as an insulator
    on copper pipes.  I've always associated it with the era of iron
    heat pipes, not copper.
    
    For a more visual description you might ask if anyone has a copy
    of "This Old House" a few weeks back where they did a short segment
    on removing asbestos insulation.  I believe it was aired in November.
    In it they showed the insulation being soaked, removed, bagged,
    washed, re-bagged, etc.  They highlighted the precautions employed
    as much as the actual removal.  The process was expensive.  But
    as alluded to in an earlier reply, I also am not interested in doing
    something like that for a living....
    

    Well, my friend has decided to have it removed by an Asbestos Removal
    Contractor.  He got two prices.  An outfit from Lawrence quoted
    him $1200, another from Chelsea came in at $750.  The guy from Chelsea
    took the time to explain to him the whole process step by step, whereas
    the guy from Lawrence just quoted him a price and hung up the phone.

    Thanks to whoever it was that suggested contacting Mass. Save. 
    As it turns out, they do not provide the loan but PERC (People's
    Energy Resourse Cooperative) does.  This is an interest free loan.
    There is a catch to this however.  You must have an audit done by
    Mass. Save prior to removing the furnace.  In other words, you couldn't
    have the job done and get compensated by them at a later date.
    
    Thanks for all your comments.
    
    					Steve

    
    I watched the asbestos removal segment on This Old House and I
    was very surprised at the elaborate precautions that had to be
    taken if the contractor was to obey ALL guidelines for removal
    of asbestos. If you didn't see it, here's a brief synopsis of
    what happened:
    
    	1. They donned white plastic "space suits" with breathers and
    	   built a double airlock entry to the basement out of scrap
    	   lumber and special poly sheets. The innermost airlock had
    	   a shower built into it.
    
    	2. They lined the basement walls with ploy to protect them
    	   from drifting particles.
    
    	3. About 8" at a time, they soak the asbestos with a soapy 
    	   fluid and carefully pull it off and bag it. When the 
    	   bag is fairly full they placed it in the shower-equipped
    	   airlock and showered it.
    
    	4. They move into the outer airlock where the bag is placed
    	   in another bag and moved into a bin for professional
    	   disposal.
    
    	5. After completing the removal, they remove and bag all the
    	   poly in the place, shower themselves, disassemble and bag
    	   the airlocks and take the bin away.
    
    	
    It was very elaborate, but before you claim that they have gone
    way overboard, keep in mind that the guys doing the job handle
    this stuff on a daily basis!
    
    							* MAC *

Well, you could call us crazy, but we paid one of those space suit 
companies to remove the stuff even though my plumber would have done it 
himself.  It cost us $1500 (we had several bids and chose the company 
that turned out to be the only one that satisfied Digital's 
requirements for their removal).

1) Take a look at the Lab Safety catelog (Janesville, WI,
1-800-356-0783, where I got my eye masks after my eye injury).  They
have a lot of equipment that can't all be due to "stupid OSHA rules."  

2) If you want to get rid of asbestos legally (instead of risking a 
giant fine), you have to have it buried in a hazardous waste dump.  
That costs lots, when you include transportation.  

3) If all they worried about was their own health, they would have just
worn the space suits rather than having all the positive ventilation
equipment and so forth.  You may get rid of the visible stuff from the
pipes, but you also want to make sure that millions of particles don't
stay in the air, or worse, travel up to the living area.  Somebody has
to pay for that equipment. 

4) I thought it looked like a four or five hour job, but it took three
men well over a day to do it.  And they were working at a good pace,
accoring to what my wife could see periodically looking through a
window. If you figure $30/hour plumber rates, that's almost a grand
there.  Figure in supplies, transportation, and burial, and the figure
is not that unreasonable.   And it is hazardous duty, and I don't know 
how steady their work is.  

And we got peace of mind, since we had air samples taken before and 
after to confirm that things were safe.  

Alex

    
    Last year my best friend's father, who I knew most of my life, died
    from lung cancer. Doctors called it "asbestosis".  This was 20 years
    AFTER he had left working for the now closed Deneral Dynamics Shipyard
    in Quincy.  I don't remember what he did for work but for the several
    years he did work there he was exposed to asbestos. Doctors felt
    the only reason he lived  20 years after his last exposure to the
    stuff was he didn't drink, smoke, or get into other abusive stuff.
                            
    The news organizations have covered many stories like this. There
    is really no dispute that asbestos is a killer.  Questions are:
    How much exposure is harmful or too much?  How much of a gambler
    are you?  
    
    K

    re: .9  Who did you hire?

Re: .11

This is the info I had:

	Abatement Specialists, Inc.
	P.O. Box 3181
	Andover, MA  01810-0804
	
	(617) 687-3028

But I got this message:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:	11569::MURRAY       "SCOTT MURRAY MRO3-1/E13 DTN: 467-6319" 27-APR-1987 09:52
To:	ALEX::CONN,MURRAY      
Subj:	RE: Abatement Specialists

Thanks for the info. In case you want to pass their number on to anyone
else, it has changed to: 603-893-1220. 


						Scott Murray
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know if they have a new address.

Alex

    I need some general information.
    
    Does the state have any requirements for removal of abestos insulation
    before selling a house?
    
    I KNOW that some lenders will not lend on a house containing abestos.
    But does the state have any requirements?  Last I heard, No.
    
    From a person with Abestos insulated heating pipes.

    Which state ? In Mass., I don't think there is such requirement.
    But, I believe, that you MUST make the buyer aware that there is
    asbesto insulation or you may be in trouble even after the sale.
    I haven't heard of any lender not lending money just because of
    the asbesto pipe insulation.
    

See also notes 567,844,872,906,1007,1155 and 1817 for more information on 
asbestos.

Paul

    Massachusetts

We had to remove asbestos because we were changing the pipes and heating
system.

Our neighbors had to remove their asbestos just to sell their house 
(Massachusetts).

The word I got was that while sealing might be as effective as removal, 
it is also expensive if done well.  And the laws might change still requiring
removal before sale.   I'd remove it whichever state you're in.

Alex

I'm in the process of getting some asbestos removed, and I thought 
I ought to correct some mis-information earlier in this note.

An ordinary mask is useless against asbestos -- the particles go
right through.  Same for a vacuum cleaner - unless it has a high
efficiency particulate air filter on it, vacuuming just stirs it up.

Due to new laws that took effect last May in Massachusetts, doing 
the removal yourself is even more finacially hazardous than it was, 
not to speak of other hazards.  The Dept of Labor and Industries must
be informed for removing more than 3 ft sq or 3 linear feet - but
apaprently the DEQE must be informed for any asbestos removal.

Asbestos is not classed by the EPA as a "hazardous waste", it is 
classed as a "special waste", meaning that it requires special handling
but is not hazadrous so long as it is handled correctly.  That means
keeping it wetted and covered, as an earlier note correctly said.

If asbestos is in "good condition" (presumably meaning that it is
not emitting fibers) and does not present a health hazard, no laws
require that it be removed (in Massachusetts).  But building owners 
must keep the asbestos in "good repair".


	Enjoy,
	Larry

From:	ERLANG::MAILTO::FRAMPTON     11-OCT-1988 13:47
To:	ERLANG::RGB::SEILER
Subj:	RE: Asbestos Removal

Thank you very much for your information. My pipes are still in use
and some asbestos has undoubtedly fallen onto my dirt floor. To make
matters worse, most of the pipes are in a tight crawl space. Can you
give me any details on what they do when they test? One firm we called
was going to stir everything up with a leave blower first. Given my
crawl space, that would produce a major dust storm.

thank you again,
Lois


From:	RGB::SEILER       "Larry Seiler, 225-4077, HL2-1/J12" 11-OCT-1988 15:00
To:	ERLANG::MAILTO::FRAMPTON,SEILER      
Subj:	RE: Asbestos Removal

You have a big problem, which is the same problem that I had/have.
I also have a dirt floor basement, and the possibility of past
asbestos contamination.  Here's what I learned.

The leaf blower routine is indeed what they do when they remove
asbestos within a plastic sealed area.  They stir things up then
measure the particulate level -- all particulates are assumed to
be asbestos.  As I understand it, this test costs $100+, and is
a good test of whether this type of asbestos removal was done right.

In a dirt floor basement, the leaf blower routine is less than worthless
*unless* they perform a much more costly test (using an electron
microscope, I think), that distinguishes asbestos from dust.
This test'll set you back $400+.  

So what to do about it?  Well, step one is to make the asbestos removers
prove that they didn't release any asbestos during their removal job.
Step two is to have them also remove all known contaminated dirt from
your basement.  Step three is to either hope it's taken care of, to
spread plastic down over the potentially contaminated dirt to keep
any potential asbestos from being released, or to pay for the $400 test
and then pay several thousands more if it comes up negative.

With a crawl space, I assume that you don't go in there much.  If you
don't go near it, the asbestos can't hurt you.  (Incidentally, if it
is wet it can't hurt you, either.)  So it might be worthwhile to spread
the plastic and leave it at that.  Of course, you have to decide knowing
your own situation, and based on advise from the Asbestos hotline, etc.

	Luck,
	Larry

PS - Coastal Energy told me that a followup test of the asbestos level is
only required for the containment removal method (and the Tufts info
seemed to confirm this).  Since they were using sealing and glove bags,
they didn't test, they just removed.  I can't blame them, given that they
didn't know whether there was already asbestos contamination in the
basement.  So I never did have my basement tested, I just had the obvious
asbestos removed.  We don't use it as living space and store very little
down there, or I'd be more cautious.

RE .-1

We recently had asbestos removed from out old boiler so that the boiler
could be replaced.  It was a relatively simple job (concrete basement
floor, no asbestos on pipes, no friable asbestos).  We had quotes from
$900 to $1800 or so.  We went with the lowest bidder, after checking
their references and asking the testing service they usually use about
their reliability.

> The leaf blower routine is indeed what they do when they remove
> asbestos within a plastic sealed area.  They stir things up then
> measure the particulate level -- all particulates are assumed to
> be asbestos.  As I understand it, this test costs $100+, and is
> a good test of whether this type of asbestos removal was done right.

From what we were told by several asbestos contractors, a testing service,
and Tufts, there a couple of mistakes here.

The purpose of the leaf blower routine is to check for contamination *before*
going through the decontamination process (indeed, the area is double-sealed
with plastic with low air pressure inside to prevent asbestos from leaking out).
We didn't do this since there was no evidence of friable asbestos. 

There are two kinds of tests: the first tests for all *fibers*, not all
particles. A fiber is defined as something at least 3 times as long as it is
wide. The other test differentiates between asbestos and other fibers. I'm not
sure if typical dirt-floor particles would be classified as fibers, although
since the standard is so low (.01 fibers per cc?), presumably there would be
enough fibers to make this test useless. 

> PS - Coastal Energy told me that a followup test of the asbestos level is
> only required for the containment removal method (and the Tufts info
> seemed to confirm this).  Since they were using sealing and glove bags,
> they didn't test, they just removed.  I can't blame them, given that they
> didn't know whether there was already asbestos contamination in the
> basement.  So I never did have my basement tested, I just had the obvious
> asbestos removed.  We don't use it as living space and store very little
> down there, or I'd be more cautious.

I don't understand this.  I thought an air test was a legal requirement after
*all* asbestos removal.  By "sealing and glove bags," do you mean that the
asbestos was contained rather than removed?  I would have called Tufts and
inquired before trusting any asbestos contractor's reading of the law.

re .-1:

You are right, of course -- the test measures fibers, not particles.
I had my own notes in front of me when I typed that in, but not the
Tufts information.  However, the dust alone is an inch thick in some
parts of my basement, so I'm sure there was going to be a positive
result to the fiber test, whether or not there's any asbestos.

On the law regarding asbestos removal, rest assured that I did not take
the word of the removal companies.  In a note in the contractors section,
I described testing them to see if they knew the law and finding that
several did not.  

Calling Tufts, however, gets you a handbook only -- they don't answer
questions over the phone (they aren't funded for it).  So instead I called
the DEQE and talked to a number of very helpful and knowledgable civil
servants.  I don't have my notes from those calls with me, but my memory
is that what Coastal proposed was legal.  

The actual removal method that they used was to use glove bags to remove
very small sections of asbestos, then seal everything else, cut the pipes
at the glove bags points, and haul them away.  I wanted those pipes taken
out anyway, so I thought that was a great idea.  Perhaps a full glove bag
removal would have required the air test, but they didn't remove much
that way.  At least I think they didn't -- I wasn't there that day.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS - I wonder why you couldn't have simply had the old boiler sealed
and disposed of as asbestos waste?

    We own a two-flat with another family.  My partner is the
    building-and-grounds superintendent for a suburban school system.
    He is certified and trained in asbestos law and practice and must 
    deal with asbestos-paranoid parents all the time.  Here's how we got
    the asbestos-covered pipe out of our basement. 
    
    We sprayed the asbestos with water, cut it off the pipes, put it
    in bags, wet it down again, and took it to the city dump on toxic-waste
    day.  We wore masks, but took no other precaustions.  Cost $0. 
    People who get sick from asbestos work with it 20 years or more.
    
    Please, no preachy replies.
    

    My mother-in-law has a box of rock-wool insulation stored in her
    attic.  Is rock wool an asbestos based product -- or is it some other 
    material?  The stuff has the appearance of fiberglass, but the fibers are 
    shorter.  The box is probably 30 or 40 years old. 
    
    
    
    
    

    
    
    What a neat term.  I looked it up in the dictionary: mineral wool made
    by blowing a jet of steam through molten rock (as limestone or siliceous
    rock) or through slag and used chiefly for heat and sound insulation.
    
    Doesn't really answer your question, though.
    
    CQ

    I called the Tufts asbestos hotline mentioned in .4.  They said that
    they no longer answer questions over the phone, but do still send out 
    an information package about asbestos in the home.  I requested the
    package (free of charge), and got referrals to two other organizations
    that supposedly do answer teplephone inquiries:
    
    EPA/Boston office (617)565-3835
    Dept. Environmental Protection  (617)292-5630
    
    I got through to someone at the EPA, and asked my rock-wool question.
    He said that rock wool is mineral-based, and typically does not contain
    asbestos. But, he said, the only way to be absolutely sure is to have
    the material tested.  He was clearly reluctant to tell me outright that
    my rock wool did not contain asbestos. 
    
    I tried calling the DEP, but the person who could answer my question
    had left for the day. (this was at 4:00 -- DEP must be a Mass state 
    agency :^) 

When I called the EPA a while ago to check someone's contention that rock wool
contains asbestos, they said that it was news to them.  This is discussed
starting with 2552.5.

Does anyone know anything about removing an asbestos shingle roof?  Cost? 
Complexity?  Health hazard?  I don't think this is the same kind of shingle 
that people have discussed as siding.  These are like 8-12 inch hexagons.

Any info?

Thanks.

Walker