Conference 7.286::home_work

    In dealing w/ the lumber yards in my area; all the KD-lumber is
    stamped S-Dry...Why I don't know. I'm in the habit of purchasing 
    #2 KD construction grade, which I understand contains ~20% #1's. 

    If memory serves me correctly, S-dry means that the lumber was surfaced
    after drying.  This is supposed to give you lumber that is closer
    to correct size than lumber that is surfaced before drying.

    All of the lumber I got from C&S (Milburry) has KILN DRIED lettered
    on one side, and the stamp says S-DRY.  All of the lumber I get
    from Somerville when ordering Kiln Dried is just stamped S-DRY.
    

    S-DRY is the same as KD.   S-GRN is not KD.   S just means "Surfaced"
    and is short for S4S.
    
    Lumber grading defies logic.  Hardwood and softwood have different
    systems.  Differnet companies follow different standards.  And
    different graders have different opinions, even within a given
    standard.

>                   -< This is a topic bounb to create confusion... >-

 That's for sure.
    I've seen a book that had S-DRY defined as both "surfaced-dry" and
    "semi-dry" on opposite sides of the same page.
    
    S-DRY means 19% moisture content.  This is the lowest practical
    moisture content because it can be stored outside.  The next lowest
    is MC-15 which just means "moisture content 15%".         
    
    

    <S-DRY means 19% moisture content>
    
    Gee if that is true I have trouble thinking of it as kiln dried.
    My impression is that for cabinet making -at least- one should have
    wood in the 4-8 % area. Indeed in a woodworking course, we used a device
    to measure the moisture content and were told to let wood sit for
    another term before using it because it was too wet. The wood was
    pine.
    
    Different moisture standards for construction grade wood than for cabinet
    making?
    
    			herb

    The grade I like is from Grossmans- PAD. 
    
    I asked a salesrep what that meant.
    
    Partially Air Dried- that means it was loaded on the truck green
    and dried in the wind enroute to the store.
    
    Ive also seen stuff at Grossmans or Channel labeled something like
    'lumber jack' studs. Lots of bark on those!
    
    Lumber grading is the most confused mess of 'standards' you can
    imagine.
    
    Ron

    Forgot to add in .4 that there are at least two grading systems
    even for softwood.  Framing lumber has a different system from the
    rest.
    
    Ecch.

    I have decided to create a baseboard molding in my bedroom, comprised of
a 1x6 with a molding cap on top. The molding will be painted. I've picked 
out the molding cap but need some help on the 1x6. Namely, what grade to
use? I'm new enough to finish work that I still don't have the terminology
straight. Can someone provide a novice with an explanation of the various
finish grades available (or a reference)?

    I always understood that finish wood came in "select" grades, B-D, with
B being the "Best". I spoke with my local lumber yard person on Saturday and
he recommended #2 since I was going to paint it anyway. (I was just buying
a 6' piece to see how it looked). His reasoning was that the #2 was just
$.89/ft vs. $2.00+/ft. for select.

    However, the #2 has a lot more knots in it than I was expecting. I assume
that the knots will bleed through the paint unless I prime them first with
something like BIZ. Some were also pitted enough that I would need to putty
them first. I'd like to go as inexpensively as possible. But my time is
valuable too.

    Any recommendations? Is there a grade between # 2 and the select grade
that would meet my needs? Can someone explain the various grading systems
so I can speak intelligently when doing my research? I've looked in the
index to Fine Homebuilding for the past two years but didn't find anything.
The few carpentry books I have were sufficiently vague to be of little use.

						    Thanks,

							Mark

    
    Mark
    
    I can't offer much of an explanation on the grading system except
    that it deals mostly with knots ... Bingham Lumber in Brookline
    N.H. on Route 13 has 4 grades of pine in 1/2" and 3/4". The price
    is the same ranging from .40 cents to .90 cents per board foot.
    Don't ask me what the difference is in board feet vs. linear feet
    I think you just cut the board foot price in half to get the
    linear price ?
    I've noticed the lowest grade will have "running knots", they look
    like "V"'s  all along the board. Probably comes from the center
    of the tree. The next grade will have big knots, the next grade
    fewer knots, then no knots in the top grade. If you pick through
    the lower grades you can usually find some good boards.
    
    Randy
    

A board foot is a piece of wood 1" x 12" x 12".  A linear foot is 12" of wood of
a given cross section. (ie 1" x 6")

There are a number of grades of wood.  Most common are #2, #1 and select.  Lower
grades are used to make things like pallets, etc.  Grading has to do with the
number of knots and the distances between knots.  I don't know the specs for
each grade.

My daddy made his living operating a sawmill.  My brother and I were grunt 
labor.  When he sold lumber it was graded and loaded on the truck one piece at 
a time by hand (guess whose hands).  We used to try to guess the grade of each 
piece.  I used to have a fair eye just based on experience.  I am sure it is 
long gone.  My father tried to cut, stack and dry only #1 and select.  He was
rarely wrong but he tried to maximize each board.  #2s got tossed aside.

Stan

    
    I have just bought all regular, not select, 1"x6" pine for my new
    baseboards.  The key is - pick it out yourself.  The time you spend
    choosing the best #1 boards will be repaid by the time you save
    when you prime them.  Good #1 boards will have as few as three smooth 
    knots per running 6' - very manageable for the cost savings.
    
    Ellen

    I wouldn't go with #2 for trim, painted or otherwise.  In my
    experience, one cannot paint over a knot and hid it successfully.
    Even if one somehow manages to keep the knot from bleeding by
    applying a proper primer, the surface is going to look different
    unless one puts on a LOT of paint.  And I've always had knots
    bleed eventually, no matter what sooper-dooper primer I've used.
    
    We just did our living room and used grade D-select (I think), which 
    has a few very small knots.  Most of it turned out to be knot-free.

    
    I always use #2 for my trim. I, also, stain just about everything. I
    like the look of the knots that way.
    
    tom

    
        If anyone uses #2 pine, the best way to seal the knots is with
    shellac. Shellac is also great for a past waterstain(such as on a
    ceiling). True #1 or select is the best to use but if you have a large
    job or alot of rooms to do, it's much cheaper. Always check different
    lumberyards for the better quality wood(such as #2). One place I know
    of that sells #2 pine is actually #3 pine. Nice guys huh.
    
        Al
    

    OR, you could do what is done in the pipe organ industry when a knot in
    in the wrong place.  Drill it out and plug it. Then plane the plug
    (I use a block plane for this) flush with the surface.

    This is just meant as another method to deal with knots, although not
    necessarily practical. :-)

    -Bob

    
    	What I do in cases like this is either be very picky in selecting
    the lumber (as mentioned in .3), or else just pay the extra money and
    get the select grade if I can't find enough of the "nice enough"
    lower-grade material to fit my needs.  How many board-feet are you going
    to use on this project in the bedroom -- 40 feet?  At only $1 a board-foot
    difference, this might be a small difference to avoid all the potential
    hassles you've outlined.  (Especially for something where "less than
    right" will show through.)
    
    								-craig

Thank you for the replies so far. As usual, a wealth of information in this
file. Although I'll admit I'm willing to pay a little more to avoid drilling
out knots, placing plugs, and sanding, etc. :-)

O.K., next generation of questions....

	I have called Somerville Lumber in Acton, MA. They quote (all for 1x6)

		Common Pine	$0.49/linear ft.
		D-select	$1.29/linear ft.
		Sterling White	$0.70/linear ft. (he described this as a new 
						   item. Some knots but they
						   are few, small, and tight.)

	I also called Lamson's in Hudson, MA whom I usually deal with.

		#2 Pine		$0.82/linear ft.
		D-select	$2.85/linear ft.

	I should have asked but didn't. Any idea why there would be such a
big difference in price for D-select? Am I comparing apples and apples?
At first I figured volume was the answer. However I also got prices for the
cap molding I will be using. It is a BROSSCO molding #8465.

	Somerville  $0.62/ft.
	Lamsons     $0.35/ft.

	In this case Lamsons is 1/2 of Somerville, just the opposite of the
1x6. I'll be calling more places later today.

	What I'm really asking is; can prices vary this much between lumber
yards or am I getting bad data?

								Mark

      We  used  #2  pine for all the baseboard and window/door casing in
      our  house.   Our  casings  are  stained  (minwax  fruitwood)  and
      polyeurethaned  (sp?).  I LIKE the knots.  They give the wood much
      interesting character.  Other opinions may  differ.   But  "knotty
      pine" paneling was and still is popular.
      
      On  the  other  hand, if your going to paint they I agree that you
      should spend the extra dollars for select.   No  matter  how  well
      they're  sealed, some of those knots ARE almost certainly going to
      show through the paint and be obvious.  It isn't  only  that  they
      may  "bleed"  through,  but  also  that the knots have a different
      texture than the rest of the wood.  Some of that different texture
      will  probably show through.  Also, the knots will absorb paint at
      a different rate than the rest of the wood.
      
      BTW,  if  you look at the moldings sold at your local lumber yard
      or  building  supplier  they  will  almost  certainly  be   clear,
      knot-free lumbar.  Unless you plan to stain, I suggest you go with
      that trend.

    If you're going to paint you can get "paint grade" moldings; these
    are clear but have ZILLIONS of "finger joints" where short pieces
    of molding (6-8 inches long) have been spliced to make a longer
    piece.  The paint grade stuff is a LOT cheaper than select!
    
    BTW, there may be "paint grade" molding WITH knots, but the stuff
    I saw was essentially knot free.

Keeping with the same theme.  I am going to be putting new baseboard molding
in my living room.  The room is almost finished.  I am planning on putting
about 50 feet of 1x10 with a cap on the top.  I know this sounds big, but it
is what was there before.  Also, it has to go to the bottom of the flooring,
as the baseboard was put in first and then the baseboard.  I want to keep the
same look that was there before.  Also, there is one small wall, where the
stairs are, that did not have the baseboard removed.

What would be a good wood to use?  I am not really sure I want to use just
plain pine.  The floor is maple.  The trim seems to be some kind of mahogany
or something.  I can't really tell.  I have stained the new beams cherry.  
All of the other trim that I am staining - switch plates, etc. - are getting
cherry stain with a poly covering.

I have been thinking of something like a cherry or maple for the baseboard.
I am looking for something that will have a little grain character.  The
house was built in 1901, and I want to be a little fair to the house without
killing my budget.

Is mahogany a reasonable wood to use?

The amount that I will be using gives me some latitude to go with a slightly
better wood.

Ed..

      It  would  be  nice to match the maple floor, but it would also be
      expensive.  #2 pine (tight knots) runs about $1  per  board  foot.
      It  will  not  have  "grain character" the same as hardwood, but I
      like the "knotty pine" look.
      
      Hardwoods run $2-3 per board foot in rough condition straight from
      the mill.  Plained and dimensioned they run locally $5-6 per board
      foot.   (These  are  generic  prices  that  I've seen for "common"
      hardwoods.  "Exotics" can cost much more.) So your talking several
      hundred dollars difference.
      
      Also,  many hardwood dealers will charge you a premium if you need
      widths over about 8".   Good  quality  wide  hardwood  boards  are
      relatively scarce and accordingly expensive.
      
      Personally,  I  would  probably  go with pine.  (What wood was the
      baseboard that your removed?)  Why don't you get a sample piece of
      pine and finish it with stain/poly to see who it looks?  You could
      experiment with different stains and glosses  to  match  the  look
      that was there before.

re .13:

You can get hardwood much cheaper than that.  More like $1.25/bf for milled
maple.  See notes 20 and 154 in WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS.  

I think I will get a short length of maple and see if I can get a price idea.
Also, maybe I will try a slightly narrower piece.  But I like the high baseboards.

Ed..

P.S. Thanks for the thoughts so far.

RE: .13

    $2-$3 per board foot for rough stock?   Charlie, where are buying this...
    so I can stay away...

When I built the addition on our house I needed clear stock for some cabinet
face frames.  I thought I'd just go with clear pine...pine is cheap...right?
Wrong.  At the time, clear pine was going for about $3.50/bd.ft at the lumber
yard.  So I went to New England Hardwoods and paid about $1.50/bd.ft for maple
(4/4 S2S/R1E...read: 1" thick rough, then milled by surfacing/planing 2 sides
and joining/ripping 1 edge).

- Mark

>    $2-$3 per board foot for rough stock?   Charlie, where are buying this...
>    so I can stay away...

      If  my  memory is correct, thats the price range for clear 4/4 red
      oak from Steve Wall lumber in South Carolina  (or  somewhere  down
      south).   That  price includes factoring in freight for 100-200 bd
      ft. 

      
>  ...  At the time, clear pine was going for about $3.50/bd.ft at the lumber 
>yard.  So I went to New England Hardwoods and paid about $1.50/bd.ft for maple

      $3.50/bd  ft  for  clear  pine  doesn't surprise me, but $1.50 for
      S2S maple sounds like a very good deal, even if  its  #2  and  not
      select (clear).
      
      Somerville  has S4S read oak in stock.  They sell it by the linear
      foot at prices that equate to $5-6/board foot. I think you'll find
      similar  prices  at  other  building supply and lumber yards.  And
      sometimes there actually glue-ups from  narrower  stock!   (No,  I
      haven't bought any significant quantity at that price.)
      
      Guess I'll have to make a trip to NE Hardwoods!

RE: .17

    If you are buying hardwood jumber from a lumberyard, then I would believe
    your prices.  In my normal travels, I like to check out the prices, and
    they are usually about twice what I pay at NE Hardwood.  (BTW, the 150 or
    so bd.ft I got was clear except for one small/tight knot.)

    I have also heard that Northland Forest Products and Highland Hardwoods
    will beat NE Hardwood's prices; but I don't know how they compare as far
    as quality goes.  (I understand they are close, but I don't have any
    personal experience...yet.)

- Mark

Where are the addresses and/or telephone numbers for those other places?  I have
only dealt with NE Hardwood.

Also, how would oak look for baseboard?  I would probably still stain it with
a cherry stain.

Ed..

>Also, how would oak look for baseboard?  I would probably still stain it with
>a cherry stain.
    I've found oak to stain darker than pine, with the same stain.
    For a baseboard, I don't know if it's worth the expense. Most of it
    will be hidden with furniture, I'd imagine.
    
    John

The telephone numbers I have are:

Northland Forest Products
Kingston, NH
603-642-8275

Highland Hardwoods
Brentwood, NH
603-697-1230

- Mark

    RE: .9:  Somerville vs. Lamson's gradings--
    
    I just finished a bedroom with 150+ linear feet of #2 from Lamsoms--
    I was impressed with the quality of this lumber.  I had it delivered,
    which makes it more impressive.  There were a couple of clear 1x4
    x 10' pieces, and all were straight (not twisted or warped).
    
    I, too, would prefer to stain/poly, but in this room, the window
    sashes and a built-in dresser had been painted and I wasn't up to
    stripping them.  So I used B.I.N. (shellac primer) over all the new
    wood, two or three coats over the knots.  Then a semi-gloss latex.
    The knots are not visible at all, but I'll have to report again in
    5 years for the real scoop on that.
                                    --tom